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[Netchaplain]

Salvation is a deliverance wrought by the divine work on the Cross, so as to bring us out of one position into another. It is true we are morally changed, but we want more than that—though whoever has got that will surly have all the rest (knowing right and wrong gives understanding of good and evil—NC). But supposing I have the new life, with its desires after holiness, what is the effect? It gives me the consciousness of all the sin that is in me. I want to be righteous, but then I see that I am not righteous (righteous in Crist but not in self—NC); and I bow under the power of indwelling sin, and the knowledge of such holiness which I have learned to desire, only to find out that I have not got it (holiness is imputed, not imparted because of the sin nature, and this suffices us for forgiveness and joyous satisfaction via the Cross—NC).

I say, what is the good of my knowing holiness in this way, if I have not got it? It is no comfort to me. Here we have been speaking of God’s righteousness; but when I look, I find I have no righteousness (it’s all Christ’s imputed to us—NC). Where can I find a resting-place for my spirit in such a state as this? It is impossible; and the very effect of having this new life, with all its holy affections and desires after the Lord Jesus, brings me to the discovery of the lack of what the new life cannot itself impart (it being imputed we cannot claim to be righteous in self—NC). I have got the hungers of this new life—all its holy and righteous desires; but the thing yearned for I have not got (self-righteousness; we want to be righteous in our selves but this can’t be, still possessing the old man, and hence the need for Christ’s imputed righteousness—NC).

It is the desire of my new life. Oh that I could be righteous; but then I am not righteous. In that way the Father meets us with a positive salvation. He meets us and quickens us into the desire and want of holiness, giving us a new life and nature capable of enjoying it. But that is not all. When I have got that life, have I got the thing I want (righteousness in myself—NC)? No. I strive, and think, Oh! If I could get more of this holiness, but still I have not got it. I may hate the sin, but the sin is there that I hate (Ro 7:17, 20).

I may long to be with my Father, to be forever in the light of His countenance, but then I see that I have got sin, and know that the light of His countenance cannot shine upon my sin; I want a righteousness fit for His presence, and I have not got it. It is thus God meets us at the Cross. He not only gives the life and nature that we want, but He gives us the thing we want (Christ’s righteousness imputed—NC); and not only so, but in Christ He gives us both the perfect object (Christ’s righteousness—NC) and life!

We have borne the image of the first Adam, in all the consequences of his sin and ruin, and we shall bear the image of the Last Adam. But the Father lays down first this great truth for our hearts, “As is the heavenly, such are they also that are heavenly.” It is what we are now (in Christ—NC)! There, I find what my heart, as quickened by God, wants; and I learn what blessedness is in Christ, by whom the Father has revealed it to us. He has given us a righteousness in the Lord Jesus, who is the blessed accepted Man in the presence of the Father.

Now, as regards my soul and eternal life, the Father has come and brought us into this position, making the Lord Jesus to be my righteousness (1Co 1:30) and Life (Col 3:4). He has brought me in, “through faith” (Eph 2:8) and in the truth of my new life, into this wondrous position in Christ. The realization of it is another thing, and may be hindered through failure or infirmity. You begin to search, perhaps in yourself, and find such and such a thought contrary to Christ. But I say, that is the old man! If you take yourself by yourself, there is not righteousness before God, and therefore you cannot stand an instant in the Father’s sight. I must look at the Lord Jesus to see what I am, and I say, “As is the heavenly, such are they that are heavenly;” and this what I am in the presence of my Father. There is no veil: we are to walk in the light, as God is in the light.


—John Nelson Darby (1800-1882)





MJS daily devotional for Dec 8

“You might be secretly attempting to correct and improve yourself, and suffering a good deal of private vexation and disappointment on account of the futility of your struggles. It was at a moment when I was utterly discouraged, and ready to give up the whole thing in complete despair, that the Father showed me how I was attempting to work upon the old material which He could only condemn, and had, and that my disgust and despair as to myself were only a feeble echo of His.

“My Father was not looking for any good in me, and had the Lord Jesus Christ before Him, the perfect and infinitely acceptable Object of His heart. And I, in my nothingness, had ceased to look for good in myself, and began tasting the deep joy of being in Christ, and free to have Him as my Object; while as to life, I entered in some degree into the blessedness of knowing that it was ‘not I, but Christ liveth in me.’“ -C.A.Coats

None But The Hungry Heart

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[Randy Kluth]

I think that's pretty well said, though for years I had trouble understanding these biblical concepts properly. Eventually I devised my own way of saying it so that I could fully grasp what these things meant for me.

The central need for all men is to remain in connection with Christ. We were made to live in connection with him. Christ preexisted his birth so that he was available in the form of God's Word from the beginning. Man could always live by his conscience, and thus rely upon God's Word to be virtuous.

What happened in the beginning is that Man was tempted to depart from God's Word and so chose to disobey God's Word, choosing to live autonomously, apart from connection with Christ. To live as such evolved a new human nature, a spiritual nature poisoned by this independent attitude and inclination.

The "Sin Inclination," referred to by the Jews, is the same thing Christians refer to as the "Sin Nature" in some respects. It is, for the Christian, a poisoned Spiritual Nature, or Sin Inclination, that is able to do both good and evil, to choose to obey Christ or to choose to disobey him, to live by God's Word or not.

So when Darby speaks of our righteousness coming exclusively from Christ's Nature he is properly saying that all virtue comes from obeying God's Word. But can't people do this? Of course they can! It's just that no matter how much they choose to do the good, evil lies there, as well, showing that we still have a Sin Nature. It ruins our record of righteousness.

When Paul falls into despair over this, he is not saying that he or other men cannot do good. He is saying that it is not enough to do good, because there is a need to sort of be completed in Christ, to obtain a new nature in Christ. We must do more than just choose the good--we must also choose to imbibe the good, to become "born again."

In sum, I think we should not go overboard and say that men cannot do good. All men have access to God's Word, and thus to Christ. But this does not adequately deal with our Sin Nature, which remains in us even when we choose to do good. We must go the 2nd mile by embracing Christ as our life, or as our Lord. To do so means that we cast our entire thought life, and will, upon Christ so that we become saints, or virtuous people all the time. It is to completely denounce sin even as it continues to be part of our nature. We overcome it regularly.

This alone allows us to say we've in a sense become good, and have become "saints." As the Apostle John says, we no longer sin because Christ's Nature abides in us. It doesn't mean we're sinless, but that we make it our regular practice to resist the tendency to sin, and thus obtain a record of righteousness.

If all we do is choose to do good on occasion, we are really choosing to live independently of Christ, using him only when it suits our purpose. This means that we've made ourselves lord of our lives, instead of Christ. We get to choose when to do good and when not to. To be "saved" requires that we yield our will completely up to Christ's righteousness, or God's Word. It isn't sinless perfection, but it is a choice to overcome sin regularly.

It is critical, I think, to recognize that abiding in God's Word is not just reading the Bible or doing what we think is good. Rather, it is to hear God's Word in our conscience so that in each situation we do not capitulate to our selfish desires, choosing instead to submit to God's love ahead of everything else in all occasions. Many Christians fail to do this, even though they've embraced Christ as Lord. They just don't live it out. They recognize what they should do, but just don't choose to submit to it out of pride or lust or covetousness.

 

[Netchaplain]

The central need for all men is to remain in connection with Christ. We were made to live in connection with him.

Yes, once one established union with God in Christ it is a connection that will be for eternity! Only the false professors have no connection with Christ, which are many.

The "Sin Inclination," referred to by the Jews, is the same thing Christians refer to as the "Sin Nature" in some respects. It is, for the Christian, a poisoned Spiritual Nature, or Sin Inclination, that is able to do both good and evil, to choose to obey Christ or to choose to disobey him, to live by God's Word or not.

So when Darby speaks of our righteousness coming exclusively from Christ's Nature he is properly saying that all virtue comes from obeying God's Word. But can't people do this? Of course they can! It's just that no matter how much they choose to do the good, evil lies there, as well, showing that we still have a Sin Nature. It ruins our record of righteousness.

The sin nature (old man) still tempts us to evil, but now our sin is not intentional, and this is where God wants us, in repentance, and continue on to our best. For the reborn, sin does not interfere with salvation, just our growth, which we also continue on (Eph 4:15).

When Paul falls into despair over this, he is not saying that he or other men cannot do good. He is saying that it is not enough to do good, because there is a need to sort of be completed in Christ, to obtain a new nature in Christ. We must do more than just choose the good--we must also choose to imbibe the good, to become "born again."

If we do not have Christ there is no good that we can truly do (Tit 1:15), it's all bad. One can mimic Christ but not do anything in Him, which is evil pride.

 

[Randy Kluth]

Yes, once one established union with God in Christ it is a connection that will be for eternity! Only the false professors have no connection with Christ, which are many.


The sin nature (old man) still tempts us to evil, but now our sin is not intentional, and this is where God wants us, in repentance, and continue on to our best. For the reborn, sin does not interfere with salvation, just our growth, which we also continue on (Eph 4:15).



If we do not have Christ there is no good that we can truly do (Tit 1:15), it's all bad. One can mimic Christ but not do anything in Him, which is evil pride.

I may or may not be seeing something a little divergent in the way we are expressing things. As such we may be looking past each other in some of this? Obviously, we do agree on many points you're making. I'm just referring to the matter of "doing good or not as non-Christians."

When I say that non-Christians can "do good," this is just a reality we see everyday in the world. We see all men as doing *some good.* Is it "good works" that earn Eternal Salvation for them? No. Eternal Salvation only comes when we choose Christ himself, and not merely "good works."

So the question is, how do non-Christians do good works when they are not choosing Christ himself? They are only *partly* choosing Christ when they choose to do good works because Christ himself is the source of all good works, of all virtue. In choosing to do good men are at least *partly* choosing Christ.

But the point is, a person becomes a genuine Christian when they choose *all* of Christ, and not just *part* of him. When we accept Christ's *person* we are not just choosing his gifts, his works, good feelings, or hope for eternal bliss. In truly choosing for Christ's *person* we are choosing eternal fellowship with him--not just momentary good works.

In choosing for Christ *fully* we are in effect deferring to him in *all* of our works. We are choosing to live in relationship with him as a *divine person.* We are accepting the proposition that *all* good works emanate from him, and that our own independent works, apart from him, are wicked. What makes men both good and evil is this sense that all men can do good, and at the same time, choose to do things independent of God's Spirit.

So non-Christians, in my view, can do good--even good that pleases God. It is a choice for *part* of Christ, but not necessarily a choice for all of Christ. Eternal Salvation comes when we choose Christ as our eternal mate, in place of mere choices to do good things.

I think it would be a great mistake to deny that people in this world can act in Christ, can "do good." You will lose the capacity to witness to people if you claim they are despicably wicked, without any trace of virtue.

God has given Man virtue by default in the act of creating them because He created us all *in His own image.* We are automatically given access to both a human conscience, and to the Word of God in our conscience. We can do good, as God even told Cain in the beginning.

So I don't know if we're in disagreement on this or not? Most Christians I know simply quote Paul in Romans, who appears to make the argument that all men are desperately wicked, that all have a Sin Nature that disqualifies them from Salvation. I'm editing the rest of this discussion out because it is going to be too long.

 

[Randy Kluth]

The problem of Paul's argument for human degeneracy.

Rom 3.10 As it is written:
“There is no one righteous, not even one;
11 there is no one who understands;
there is no one who seeks God.

Paul is arguing that Israel, a nation called to righteousness, became at some point completely degenerate. He is arguing that the choice to abandon God as their "only God" led them to complete degeneracy.

So Paul is saying that all men, called to righteousness or not, are afflicted with human sin, and can become completely degenerate. Apart from Christ "there is no one righteous, not even one."

Paul is not arguing that all men are degenerate--just that apart from Christ all men are degenerate and become degenerate. All men, to some degree, reject Christ and as such can become unspeakably corrupt.

All men in Israel were unrighteous because all had rejected him in his pre-Incarnate form as God's Word. They had turned away from God to idolatry, and had thus become unspeakably corrupt. Paul is obviously arguing against the choice to reject Christ!

Paul is also arguing that being that we are sinners and disqualified from Eternal Life we are also apparently disqualified from Christ himself, abandoning ourselves to the fate of eternal degeneracy. But Paul is arguing that Christ has come to show that we are *not* abandoned to this fate, and that all men do *not* have to become unspeakably corrupt.

I would argue that all men have been given access to Christ, whether conscious of it or not. God comes to the human conscience universally, to convict us of righteousness so that we choose for the good and against the evil of independent living.

So it is the choice for dependence upon Christ that brings Salvation because it is a choice for Christ and against sin. It is the choice for Christ himself as our basis of righteousness that gives us Eternal Life.

But I personally think that even non-Christians in this world can unconsciously choose for Christ in their ignorance when they choose to embrace God's Word in their conscience.

Rom 2.14 (Indeed, when Gentiles, who do not have the law, do by nature things required by the law, they are a law for themselves, even though they do not have the law. 15 They show that the requirements of the law are written on their hearts, their consciences also bearing witness, and their thoughts sometimes accusing them and at other times even defending them.)

 

[Netchaplain]

So it is the choice for dependence upon Christ that brings Salvation because it is a choice for Christ and against sin. It is the choice for Christ himself as our basis of righteousness that gives us Eternal Life.

We definately agree here!