"Expelled", an example of dishonesty among creationists

  • Welcome to Christian Forums, a Christian Forum that recognizes that all Christians are a work in progress.

    You will need to register to be able to join in fellowship with Christians all over the world.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!

River Jordan

Well-Known Member
Jan 30, 2014
1,856
50
48
"Expelled" is a 2008 creationist film that attempts to make the case that the scientific community actively suppresses scientists, academics, and teachers who advocate intelligent design creationism. In the film, they cite a handful of cases they claim illustrate this active conspiracy (the folks who made the movie have referred to it as a conspiracy). In this thread, I'll take a closer look at these cases, compare them to the documented facts, and see if the creationists have presented an honest, accurate picture of what happened.

Let's start with the case of Caroline Crocker, who the film claims was fired merely because she mentioned ID creationism in a college classroom. Specifically, the narrator (Ben Stein) claims "After she simply mentioned Intelligent Design in her cell biology class at George Mason University, Caroline Crocker’s sterling academic career came to an abrupt end", she claims that her supervisor said she "[had] to be disciplined", and Stein claims that she was "blacklisted and unable to find a job anywhere". Also, she claims in the movie that she "did not teach creationism".

That gives the pretty clear impression that Crocker mentioned ID creationism in a class and was immediately, or very soon thereafter, fired and her career was over. So how does that compare with the facts?

First, Crocker's position at GMU was a contract position where she taught on a course-by-course basis with no guarantee of renewal. These types of positions are very common in academia. This is evidenced by the fact that while teaching at GMU, she simultaneously taught at N. Virginia Community College. So once she had finished teaching the course, the university had the option to renew her contract or let it expire. And as is described in the WaPo article linked above, she wasn't fired, but rather her contract simply was not renewed.

So the first claim that her career "came to an abrupt end" is false. She finished out the term of her contract, which was simply not renewed.

Next is the claim that she was "blacklisted" and "unable to find a job anywhere". Yet after her contract with GMU ended, she continued to teach at North Virginia Community College (see link above) and continued to teach ID creationist talking points as well!

So the second claim that she was blacklisted to the point of not being able to work or teach is false.

Next is her claim that she didn't teach creationism. As is evidenced by the WaPo article linked above, she most definitely taught creationist talking points, such as that macroevolution = "a dog turning into a cat", the scientific community is deliberately conspiring to turn people away from God, complexity in cells means there was an intelligent designer, evolution leads to Nazism, and a host of others. Also, even though she claimed she was teaching the "strengths and weaknesses of evolution", when the reporter asked if she was ever going to teach the strengths (she's spent all her time only teaching creationist talking points), she said "no". You can see some of the slides she used HERE.

So the third claim that she didn't teach creationism is false.

In sum, despite what "Expelled" claimed, Caroline Crocker was not fired, was not blacklisted, finished her contract at GMU, continued to teach at NVCC, and taught creationism even though she was hired to teach biology.
 

River Jordan

Well-Known Member
Jan 30, 2014
1,856
50
48
Um....not sure why you posted that since it pretty much confirms what I wrote in the OP (she did teach creationism, she wasn't fired, and she wasn't blacklisted), despite what is claimed in the creationist movie.

So......thanks!! :)
 

StanJ

Lifelong student of God's Word.
May 13, 2014
4,798
111
63
70
Calgary, Alberta, Canada
River Jordan said:
So Stan can Google and paste URL's. That's not exactly an impressive response, is it?
Yes I can and as there's nothing new Under the Sun I'm not going to waste my time telling you what you already know. The info is actually for others who aren't already inculcated.
 

River Jordan

Well-Known Member
Jan 30, 2014
1,856
50
48
StanJ said:
Yes I can and as there's nothing new Under the Sun I'm not going to waste my time telling you what you already know. The info is actually for others who aren't already inculcated.
Figured. You cited the movie as showing evidence of a conspiracy among scientists, but when the dishonesty of that movie is pointed out, all you can do is post "here's what I found via Google" and then declare it to be a waste of time.

:rolleyes:
 

StanJ

Lifelong student of God's Word.
May 13, 2014
4,798
111
63
70
Calgary, Alberta, Canada
River Jordan said:
Figured. You cited the movie as showing evidence of a conspiracy among scientists, but when the dishonesty of that movie is pointed out, all you can do is post "here's what I found via Google" and then declare it to be a waste of time.
No, I said submitting anything to you is a waste of time. I post links not for you but for those who may get sucked in by your fallacious assertions that evolution is true. I prefer to let people make up their own minds.
 

River Jordan

Well-Known Member
Jan 30, 2014
1,856
50
48
StanJ said:
No, I said submitting anything to you is a waste of time. I post links not for you but for those who may get sucked in by your fallacious assertions that evolution is true. I prefer to let people make up their own minds.
So you can't defend the contents of the movie you cited.

Figured.
 

StanJ

Lifelong student of God's Word.
May 13, 2014
4,798
111
63
70
Calgary, Alberta, Canada
"Unfortunately, the tree of science has become infected. The infection started in the trunk in education and may cause problems in the root system. It has also worked its way up the tree, spreading from branch to branch. Even now some leaves are turning brown and falling off. It is to be expected that as science progresses there will be normal turnover in the tree, but in modern science there is also an infection called “lack of scientific integrity.” Caroline Crockery
 

River Jordan

Well-Known Member
Jan 30, 2014
1,856
50
48
StanJ said:
"Unfortunately, the tree of science has become infected. The infection started in the trunk in education and may cause problems in the root system. It has also worked its way up the tree, spreading from branch to branch. Even now some leaves are turning brown and falling off. It is to be expected that as science progresses there will be normal turnover in the tree, but in modern science there is also an infection called “lack of scientific integrity.” Caroline Crockery
Why are you posting quotes from a documented liar?
 

StanJ

Lifelong student of God's Word.
May 13, 2014
4,798
111
63
70
Calgary, Alberta, Canada
River Jordan said:
Why are you posting quotes from a documented liar?
Documented according to you is not the same as documented according to reliable news investigative sources. These are her own words and if you actually think that the people who did this to her would admit to it, you're much more naive than I already thought.
 

River Jordan

Well-Known Member
Jan 30, 2014
1,856
50
48
StanJ said:
Documented according to you is not the same as documented according to reliable news investigative sources.
Obviously you've not bothered to look at any of the material. She said she was fired, when in reality she was allowed to serve out the end of her contract. She said she was blacklisted, when in reality she continued to teach. She said she didn't teach creationism, when in reality her own slides show she taught creationism.

Those are all documented facts. If you have a problem with them, then your problem is with reality.

These are her own words and if you actually think that the people who did this to her would admit to it, you're much more naive than I already thought.
What exactly are you disputing? Are you saying she was fired? Are you saying she didn't teach at NVCC? Are you saying she didn't teach creationism?