"Extravagant Lifestyles" of Mega-Pastores Explored

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Foreigner

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I must confess I am rather torn on this. I am not rich but I do regularly give to my chuch.
Our pastors do make a decent salary, but knowing some of them personally I do know that many give back to the different ministries within the church, and a number of other-church and secular charities.

And if the church body has no problem with a pastor collecting a large salary, it truly is up to them and no one else.

And if the pastor is not using his (God's) money in a way that God wishes, as long as he is not misusing church funds then that is a conversation/conviction between he and God alone.

And on a personal - admittedly judgmental - note, if a pastor is pulling down seven figures (or even upper six) and is also getting a housing allowance, etc., but there is definite need, not only in the church body, but in the community, I would wonder where that church's real focus is.

If a person who is poor walks into a church, and the suit the pastor is wearing is worth more than that person makes in four or five months, besides feeding the secular stereotype, I believe it actually makes the person feel less welcome "as they are."

And then there are the TV Evangelists. I do indeed believe that many are called by God and have blessed many in need. And yes, if they own a mansion, a plane, several cars, etc. etc. etc. it does make me a bit skeptical, but then again, no one is being forced to give to them. If they are duping people in Jesus' name, they will eventually have to answer for it.

But what chaps me is when they try to squeeze out every single ounce of profit, when it would actually reach and assist others if they would not focus on the bottom line.

Case in point:
Beth Moore does conferences all over the U.S. A friend of mine paid a few hundred dollars to sit in on a one-day conference with her out of town.

The conferences are broadcast on satellite, as well and my friend's church wanted to give that satellite feed for a two-hour sermon Beth Moore was giving that evening. The church was required to charge $45.00 for everyone who WALKED INTO THEIR OWN CHURCH in order to view that feed and then the church was to send the money made to Beth Moore ministries. They also had to guarantee a minimum amount or the feed simply would not be made available to them. The church was NOT able to charge Beth Moore for using them as a venue for her sermon.

Contrast that with churches such as mine that provide every sermon for free to download from the church's web site.

Between the two, which seems more concerned with getting their message to as many people as possible?





'Extravagant Lifestyles' of Mega-Pastors to Be Exposed by Richard Dawkins Foundation


By Stoyan Zaimov , Christian Post Reporter
August 28, 2012|10:54 am
The Richard Dawkins Foundation for Reason and Science is working on a new project that members claim will expose America's "religio-industrial complex," and highlight the tax perks and privileges enjoyed by megachurch pastors and preachers of the prosperity gospel.
"The most important first step is cataloging the extravagant lifestyles of some clergy for an audience that includes the religious and non-religious alike. Many religious people find the extravagant lifestyles of some religious figures offensive," Sean Faircloth, the foundation's Director of Strategy & Policy, shared with The Christian Post about the idea behind the report.

While Faircloth could not say when the report would be completed, he added in his emailed statement that the main purpose and goal of the effort was to push for "equal treatment under the law, so that no religious bias in American law exists, including in tax policies (e.g. the parsonage exemption which benefits numerous well-off clergy)."

Faircloth goes more in depth about the investigation the Richard Dawkins Foundation is conducting into the wealth of many of America's religious leaders on GodDiscussion.com, where he shares that federal law permits religious organizations to give housing allowances to ministers, called parsonage exemptions, which allow some clergy to allegedly live like millionaires.

"Eight so-called ministers got housing allowances at Robert Schuller's Crystal Cathedral. Now three of these received housing allowances of $100,000-plus a year and three happened to be relatives of Reverend Schuller. Robert Schuller's daughter bought a house now valued at $2.29 million," the Richard Dawkins Foundation representative claims.

Faircloth also brings up the issue of the teaching of the prosperity gospel – mainly, when some megachurch leaders teach the faithful that if they donate money to the church or a particular ministry, they will be blessed by God with material and spiritual wealth.

"Joyce Meyer, America's top woman minister, lives the prosperity gospel full out, I'll tell you," Faircloth claims on GodDiscussion.com "Her ministry brings in over $100 million annually and of her money, she says 'There's no need for us to apologize for being blessed.' And Meyer asked, 'Is there no reward for anybody who's doing what I am doing?' Luckily, God has provided a very specific answer to that question. One part of that answer is a multimillion dollar private jet because flying commercial is so, to quote Meyer, uncomfortable today.

The future report is also set to highlight the rise of megachurches in America, the mentality that is allowing them to gain members, and how they are utilizing a government system that allows churches to operate as charitable organizations and go tax free.

Some megachurch pastors, such as Rick Warren of Saddleback Church in Lake Forest, Calif., have chosen not to receive a salary from their church, choosing instead to develop charitable outreach programs to assist their communities (read Megachurch Pastors Use Their Millions to Bless Others).

Joel Osteen of Lakewood Church in Texas, one of the most popular megachurch pastors in America, argued earlier this year that financially successful ministries teaching people that they too can enjoy success does not conflict with teachings of the Bible.

"The way I define it is that I believe God wants you to prosper in your health, in your family, in your relationships, in your business, and in your career. So I do … if that is the prosperity gospel, then I do believe that," Osteen said in a previous interview with The Christian Post.

"I don't believe we are supposed to go through life defeated and not having enough money to pay our bills or send our kids to college. So you know, when I hear some of that, I think that is not who I am, he doesn't know me or what I teach. Because he is saying God doesn't believe that… there is no demand, I don't think I'd put it like that but I always talk about God rewards obedience. When you follow His way, the Bible says that His blessings will chase you down and overtake you."


Read more at http://www.christianpost.com/news/extravagant-lifestyles-of-mega-pastors-to-be-exposed-by-richard-dawkins-foundation-80709/#FbBfC66xoxpmVDqC.99




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HammerStone

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There's definitely abuse out there, and it makes us all sick. I just wonder if it's a case of the abuse coming to the surface a little more easily.

Yet, it was interesting in this article from The Gospel Coalition about large churches and their senior pastor salaries: http://thegospelcoalition.org/blogs/tgc/2012/09/05/how-much-money-do-megachurch-pastors-make/

Total cash compensation (including allowances for housing) for senior pastors ranged from $85,000 to more than $265,000, though the majority of the salaries cluster around the $100,000 to $140,000 range.

This is not a perfect study (samples only 208 churches, with 1,600 being in the sample range), as you can see, but it doesn't say all that much. IE: I don't think a case can be made for widespread abuse. For instance, $265,000.00 is a good chunk of change for us bumpkins who live in small towns, but that changes in say New York or Toronto where it's closer to an average salary for someone employed over a long period of time in a certain area of the city? It's not unheard of for bartenders to make $50-$70k in NYC, with the best making $100k in the right place.

Also, what about charitable donations? We don't have that data.

It just seems like there is a leap from tele-evangelists and popular personalities - the average large church doesn't seem to have as much of this problem.
 

us2are1

Son Of Man
Sep 14, 2011
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I must confess I am rather torn on this. I am not rich but I do regularly give to my chuch.
Our pastors do make a decent salary, but knowing some of them personally I do know that many give back to the different ministries within the church, and a number of other-church and secular charities.

And if the church body has no problem with a pastor collecting a large salary, it truly is up to them and no one else.

And if the pastor is not using his (God's) money in a way that God wishes, as long as he is not misusing church funds then that is a conversation/conviction between he and God alone.

And on a personal - admittedly judgmental - note, if a pastor is pulling down seven figures (or even upper six) and is also getting a housing allowance, etc., but there is definite need, not only in the church body, but in the community, I would wonder where that church's real focus is.

If a person who is poor walks into a church, and the suit the pastor is wearing is worth more than that person makes in four or five months, besides feeding the secular stereotype, I believe it actually makes the person feel less welcome "as they are."

And then there are the TV Evangelists. I do indeed believe that many are called by God and have blessed many in need. And yes, if they own a mansion, a plane, several cars, etc. etc. etc. it does make me a bit skeptical, but then again, no one is being forced to give to them. If they are duping people in Jesus' name, they will eventually have to answer for it.

But what chaps me is when they try to squeeze out every single ounce of profit, when it would actually reach and assist others if they would not focus on the bottom line.

Case in point:
Beth Moore does conferences all over the U.S. A friend of mine paid a few hundred dollars to sit in on a one-day conference with her out of town.

The conferences are broadcast on satellite, as well and my friend's church wanted to give that satellite feed for a two-hour sermon Beth Moore was giving that evening. The church was required to charge $45.00 for everyone who WALKED INTO THEIR OWN CHURCH in order to view that feed and then the church was to send the money made to Beth Moore ministries. They also had to guarantee a minimum amount or the feed simply would not be made available to them. The church was NOT able to charge Beth Moore for using them as a venue for her sermon.

Contrast that with churches such as mine that provide every sermon for free to download from the church's web site.

Between the two, which seems more concerned with getting their message to as many people as possible?





'Extravagant Lifestyles' of Mega-Pastors to Be Exposed by Richard Dawkins Foundation


By Stoyan Zaimov , Christian Post Reporter
August 28, 2012|10:54 am
The Richard Dawkins Foundation for Reason and Science is working on a new project that members claim will expose America's "religio-industrial complex," and highlight the tax perks and privileges enjoyed by megachurch pastors and preachers of the prosperity gospel.
"The most important first step is cataloging the extravagant lifestyles of some clergy for an audience that includes the religious and non-religious alike. Many religious people find the extravagant lifestyles of some religious figures offensive," Sean Faircloth, the foundation's Director of Strategy & Policy, shared with The Christian Post about the idea behind the report.

While Faircloth could not say when the report would be completed, he added in his emailed statement that the main purpose and goal of the effort was to push for "equal treatment under the law, so that no religious bias in American law exists, including in tax policies (e.g. the parsonage exemption which benefits numerous well-off clergy)."

Faircloth goes more in depth about the investigation the Richard Dawkins Foundation is conducting into the wealth of many of America's religious leaders on GodDiscussion.com, where he shares that federal law permits religious organizations to give housing allowances to ministers, called parsonage exemptions, which allow some clergy to allegedly live like millionaires.

"Eight so-called ministers got housing allowances at Robert Schuller's Crystal Cathedral. Now three of these received housing allowances of $100,000-plus a year and three happened to be relatives of Reverend Schuller. Robert Schuller's daughter bought a house now valued at $2.29 million," the Richard Dawkins Foundation representative claims.

Faircloth also brings up the issue of the teaching of the prosperity gospel – mainly, when some megachurch leaders teach the faithful that if they donate money to the church or a particular ministry, they will be blessed by God with material and spiritual wealth.

"Joyce Meyer, America's top woman minister, lives the prosperity gospel full out, I'll tell you," Faircloth claims on GodDiscussion.com "Her ministry brings in over $100 million annually and of her money, she says 'There's no need for us to apologize for being blessed.' And Meyer asked, 'Is there no reward for anybody who's doing what I am doing?' Luckily, God has provided a very specific answer to that question. One part of that answer is a multimillion dollar private jet because flying commercial is so, to quote Meyer, uncomfortable today.

The future report is also set to highlight the rise of megachurches in America, the mentality that is allowing them to gain members, and how they are utilizing a government system that allows churches to operate as charitable organizations and go tax free.

Some megachurch pastors, such as Rick Warren of Saddleback Church in Lake Forest, Calif., have chosen not to receive a salary from their church, choosing instead to develop charitable outreach programs to assist their communities (read Megachurch Pastors Use Their Millions to Bless Others).

Joel Osteen of Lakewood Church in Texas, one of the most popular megachurch pastors in America, argued earlier this year that financially successful ministries teaching people that they too can enjoy success does not conflict with teachings of the Bible.

"The way I define it is that I believe God wants you to prosper in your health, in your family, in your relationships, in your business, and in your career. So I do … if that is the prosperity gospel, then I do believe that," Osteen said in a previous interview with The Christian Post.

"I don't believe we are supposed to go through life defeated and not having enough money to pay our bills or send our kids to college. So you know, when I hear some of that, I think that is not who I am, he doesn't know me or what I teach. Because he is saying God doesn't believe that… there is no demand, I don't think I'd put it like that but I always talk about God rewards obedience. When you follow His way, the Bible says that His blessings will chase you down and overtake you.".

Lucky for them and everyone else in the world God has a plan to take it away from all of them from the richest to the poorest. Faith will be revealed and needed to even survive.
 

Rach1370

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I don't begrudge people for being wealthy...heck, one day I hope to be in a place where I don't have to worry how I'll pay my bills! I don't even mind some of those pastors being paid a good deal...they are usually very busy and there is a high emotional, physical and stressful toll on them and their families.
But private jets, massive mansions, luxury cars? How on earth do they justify that when people are starving, being sold into slavery, being abused horribly? If there's one thing that gets my back up, it's the prosperity gospel. If God has blessed that person over there, amen! I hope they use that blessing wisely. But to say that people who are poor, unwell or unemployed are not being blessed by God...that they have no faith, etc, etc....honestly, how dare they? Have they even read the bible? How many of God's followers ever had a rosy life? Even after Jesus, how many were healthy, wealthy and unabused? But also, how many lived what they were given with total focus and love? Every single disciple (except John) went to their deaths with a seeming willingness to suffer for Christ...that takes amazing faith!
So these pastors who not only hoard money but say all Christians should experience the same...shame on them. They could live a very, very comfortable life and still have millions left over to give to those who cannot 'help themselves'. Or perhaps the little girls being sold into sexual slavery just need to have more faith. It's so sad that people preaching love cannot show some.
 

us2are1

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James 2:5

Listen, my dear brothers:Has not God chosen those who are poor in the eyes of the world to be rich in faith and to inherit the kingdom he promised those who love him?

Matthew 6:21

For where your treasure is, there your heart will be also.


This world is no treasure. Money and mammon is not treasure. Fame and fortune is not treasure.

He who sits on the throne of Heaven is the treasure. God is Spirit and He will fill you if you ask Him.
 

Strat

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It's hard for a working person to listen to a man who has 100 times more than you will ever have talk about giving and sacrifice and not letting things control you...it's an example thing,just like a well known pastor who is as wide as he is tall....watching him waddle back and forth and yelling at the top of his lungs about self control being the fruit of the spirit is hard.
 

HammerStone

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It's hard for a working person to listen to a man who has 100 times more than you will ever have talk about giving and sacrifice and not letting things control you...it's an example thing,just like a well known pastor who is as wide as he is tall....watching him waddle back and forth and yelling at the top of his lungs about self control being the fruit of the spirit is hard.

Having just moved back from the obese back to the overweight category in BMI (just identifying my own struggles), I do find it very difficult to watch certain large pastors preach messages about going without, because it's blatantly hypocritical. I was ashamed to be relatively normal compared to everyone else when it comes to my weight, but still knew that food is a struggle and I needed to lose the weight. It's definitely not all that different from the whole money thing.

If we were as tough on the whole gluttony thing as we were some other sins...
 

Brother James

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You know, it seems to be a timeless truth that the worst place to look for God is in the religious "leaders" of the day. We have rich preachers who live lavish lifestyles shacking up in motel rooms with prostitutes, or smoking meth with homosexual prostitutes or merely living extravagant lifestyles on money people thought they were giving to God. We have some who commit horrible crimes of pedophilia against both girls and boys. You can find every wicked thing your mind can imagine in some religious "leader" somewhere.

Which just proves the point I make often: If you place your trust in men, they will let you down every single time. The hearts of men are corrupt and they tend to corrupt everything they put their hands to. Jesus is the only legitimate place to put our trust. These scoundrels seem to harm the cause of Christ for sure. Nevertheless, nothing can pluck us out of His hand if we keep our eyes on Him.
 
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Foreigner

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Interesting article Hammerstone.

I have observed the those in-the-trenches pastors, regardless of the size of the church, never work just 40-hour workweeks.

Besides the normal day-to-day church operations, there are the funerals, the weddings, the visits to the sick, trips to jails and prisons, budget battles with the board, requests for assistance from other churches and charities, etc.

40 hours a week doesn't begin to cover the work that these pastors do.

As far as income, I am with you Rach.
One of my prayers is, "Oh Lord, please help me to show others that being filthy rich would not change me."
So far our Lord and Savior has been slow to answer that one.......

God does promise material wealth to those who fulfill what he asks and follow Him with their whole hearts.
But most people only read and claim Luke 6:38 "give, and it will be given to you. Good measure, pressed down, shaken together, running over, will be put into your lap. For with the measure you use it will be measured back to you.”

They don't seem to realize that the "give" portion they are actually responsible for is actually covered in Luke 6:27-37, and that is what you must fulfill to be able to claim what is in verse 38.


A couple of decades ago I dated a girl who was attending Oral Roberts University. Her parents went into debt big time so she could attend, but even as she was there she felt there was "Something rotten in Denmark."

When I visited the campus in Tulsa, there was a HUGE set of praying hands on the campus grounds. She said they were cast in bronze, 60 feet tall weighing 30 tons (Google ORU praying hands to see a pic). She said those hands cost between $5000 and $10,000 a year just to clean.

It seems like such a waste when one of the outreaches Roberts preached about said they could feed a child for a year at that time for just $175.

A few years later in 1987 Oral Roberts gave his famous claim that if he didn't collect $8 million by the end of March, "God will call me home." It was about the same time he was sending out healing water for people to "annoint their billfolds."

It was shortly after that that the board found out that the family was using the 'ministry' jet they had to take the Roberts' daughter and her friends to Mexico for spring break, and to various places around the country and even overseas to do shopping. Millions of dollars were found accessed and used by the family for "personal use" that they could not account for. One person called him "Jim Baker's Mini Me."

You can be a filthy rich millionaire and still be a humble servant of God. While I obviously can't speak from experience, my understanding is that if you show you can be a great steward of His blessings, applying them as He wishes, you can anticipate even greater personal blessings....and greater responsibilities.

Perhaps my view would change if my bank balance had a few more zeros after it, but I also know that I am not in a position to handle wealth like that the way I should. At least not at this moment...

Right now I am at the Prov. 30: 8-9 place: "....give me neither poverty nor riches; feed me with the food that is needful for me, lest I be full and deny you and say, “Who is the LORD?” or lest I be poor and steal and profane the name of my God."

My hope is for that to change...


.
 

Pelaides

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Paul and barnabass were beggars,

''Its easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than a richman to get into heaven"
 

Rach1370

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I don't think money is evil...the love of it is. One Pastor says it like this: Love people and use money, or love money and use people.
If God has blessed you with wealth, joyfully use it for Him and his work here. If not, praise him anyway!
 

tom55

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"You can not serve God and money..." Mathew 6:24
"Keep your live free from love of money" Hebrews 13:5
"sell what you possess and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven" Mathew 19:21
"None of you can be My disciple who does not give up all his own possession's" Luke 14:23

When Jesus sent out his disciples he said to them "take nothing for your journey except a staff; no bread, no bags, no money in your belts; wear sandal's but not an extra tunic" Mark 6:7-9
What would Jesus have said to his disciples if they came back with bags of money or new shoes and clothes given to them? Would He say keep it, that's the benefit of being one of my disciples! Or should we and our pastors do as the first apostles did and make sure "there was not a needy person among them" and distribute the wealth "to each as any had need". Acts 4:34-35

I don't think Jesus would be happy with the wealth some of these pastors have accumulated. I think a church should survey their parishioner's to determine their average salary. That average should be the salary of their pastor. THAT WOULD BE FAIR.
 

IanLC

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Ministry needs money to operate here on Earth in this present system. I wish it could be another way but that is how it is. If I was ever called into the pastorate I would want to be financially stable or blessed so that I would NOT have to receive a salary from the assembly from which I am serving as pastor. So that the funds, tithes, offerings raised in the assembly can be used for MINISTRY not just new pew cushions, bigger edifices, choir robes, parking lot, etc but for true ministry! Such as missions work, evangelistic outreach programs, food bank/pantry, rehabilitation facilities, biblical schooling, work/trade institutes, GED and community college classes, financial responsibility and management classes, and all things to minister helps to people and most of all the gospel of Jesus Christ and make people holistic!
"The thief comes only to steal and kill and destroy. I came that they may have life and have it abundantly." (John 10:10)

Am I upset with these mega church pastors living a wealthy life no as long as they use the funds to uplift the kingdom of God. A workman is worth his wages. Are there many Paul-like ministers when it comes to finances today no they are more like the Old Testament priesthood living off the fruits of the Temple. Paul worked making tents to support himself even though some of the churches gave him a gift here and there but Paul WORKED outside of the church! The Old testament priest lived off the sacrifices and offerings of the Temple but that was the Law. Whether in poverty or wealth, working or not all should be done to the Glory of God and a pure conscience! It's a matter of personal conviction by the Holy Ghost and the Word!
"For the kingdom of God is not a matter of eating and drinking, but of righteousness, peace and joy in the Holy Spirit, because anyone who serves Christ in this way is pleasing to God and receives human approval. Let us therefore make every effort to do what leads to peace and to mutual edification." (Romans 14:17-18)
"So whatever you believe about these things keep between yourself and God. Blessed is the one who does not condemn himself by what he approves." (Romans 14:22)
 

Asyncritus

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The above posts are wonderful illustrations of what happens when the scriptural precedents in the NT are totally ignored and man's thinking substituted.

Consider:

1 Where are the paid 'priests', 'theologians', 'ministers', 'bishops', 'archbishops', 'cardinals', 'popes' etc etc in the NT? Answer: Nowhere to be seen.

2 Paul worked with his own hands as a tentmaker to feed himself. What did Jesus do? Didn't have anywhere to lay His head. Had a collection bag, which was robbed by Judas. We have no examples of paid workers in the church.

That says something about the 'church' today, doesn't it? Nothing good, that's for sure.

3 Where are the monumental church buildings costing zillions in the NT? Answer, nowhere to be seen.

4 Which church in the NT had possessions amounting to billions and billions of dollars, pounds, etc when the poor of the world starved? Answer: none of them.

Just think: the sale of half a dozen of the great paintings in the vatican, or the sale of half of the property of the anglican church in the UK, would feed half the population of Calcutta for a year - at the Waldorf Astoria and Dorchester hotels. With change left over.

5 And all these incredible 'Crystal Churches' and mansions, and fantastic church buildings owned by the denominations, what about them?

Jesus had nowhere to lay His head - He said so. So why does the 'church', which calls upon His Name, and His Father's Name, possess all these things?

And if you belong to one of them, shouldn't you reconsider your position?
 

afaithfulone4u

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Son of Man said:
James 2:5

Listen, my dear brothers:Has not God chosen those who are poor in the eyes of the world to be rich in faith and to inherit the kingdom he promised those who love him?

Matthew 6:21

For where your treasure is, there your heart will be also.


This world is no treasure. Money and mammon is not treasure. Fame and fortune is not treasure.

He who sits on the throne of Heaven is the treasure. God is Spirit and He will fill you if you ask Him.
Then I will take it that you are NOT looking forward to walking on streets of gold in heaven or for your mansion?
God is not a child abuser, He gave us the earth to enjoy and all the toys that the wicked children of Satan have IS OURS. They just head the line up of crying LOOK AT THAT GREEDY PASTOR, the man of God who works the fields so that man can be saved and BECOME the blessed of God in this life and after.
For the gold is mine the silver is mine and the cattle on a thousand hills are mine says God. We are the inheritors. Why should a child of God who is faithfully serving the Lord in Word and deed sit in the back of a SECULAR PLANE and ride as a second class beggar under their authority, yet we are to be respectful to all men? They are the sons who have let the wisdom of God guide them. They no longer look to man for their needs they look to their Father who gives to all who ask and do His will for their life.
To the poster above who said that the man of God should not be tax exempt I say:
They do not pay taxes for God said that the son's are EXEMPT/Free.
Matt 17:25-27
25 He saith, Yes. And when he was come into the house, Jesus prevented him, saying, What thinkest thou, Simon? of whom do the kings of the earth take custom or tribute? of their own children, or of strangers?
26 Peter saith unto him, Of strangers. Jesus saith unto him, Then are the children free.
27 Notwithstanding, lest we should offend them, go thou to the sea, and cast an hook, and take up the fish that first cometh up; and when thou hast opened his mouth, thou shalt find a piece of money: that take, and give unto them for me and thee.
KJV

For they are fishers of men. God's kingdom is who they are under authority and serve and He pays very well, for all the earth is His and He can give it over to whom so ever He wills. I do say that any ministry that CHARGES for food is a HIRED SHEPHERD. They must give freely, but the sheep are to give offerings to their PASTURE'S UP KEEP for the value they put on the spiritual food they were fed, what it was worth to your soul.. or save it for the PIZZA that you feel leave a better taste in your mouth. Your choice of where you store your treasures. A worker is worth his wages says Jesus and they were told to take a purse. Also Paul took up offerings and said it was for THEIR account that he was collecting it, so that they would have treasures in their heavenly account. God is a God of prosperity, but not for learning evil ways of gain, but for growing up in His wisdom. Jesus was rich, yet he became poor for our sakes, because a child of God must build from the foundation up in the Word before he is able to handle wealth that can ruin a person of greed. Our spiritual house must be founded on the Rock/Stone/Word before we will ever receive our inheritance.

Seek ye first the kingdom of God and His righteousness and ALL OTHER THINGS SHALL BE ADDED UNTO YOU!

I don't think you understand what you said when you said WHERE your treasure is, there is where your heart is also.. if you did understand, then you would know that to give to God is gain and to save your treasure for you earthly lusts is loss. Even the poor widow woman who Jesus took her last mite which was all she had to live on was given a great honor by Jesus for he said HOW GREAT HER FAITH WAS.. she put her treasures in HEAVEN, her trust in God and His kingdom, not her money from Ceasar or the hand of man.


Prov 8:19-32
19 My fruit is better than gold, yea, than fine gold; and my revenue than choice silver.
20 I lead in the way of righteousness, in the midst of the paths of judgment:
21 That I may cause those that love me to inherit substance; and I will fill their treasures.

22 The LORD possessed me in the beginning of his way, before his works of old.
23 I was set up from everlasting, from the beginning, or ever the earth was.
24 When there were no depths, I was brought forth; when there were no fountains abounding with water.
25 Before the mountains were settled, before the hills was I brought forth:
26 While as yet he had not made the earth, nor the fields, nor the highest part of the dust of the world.
27 When he prepared the heavens, I was there: when he set a compass upon the face of the depth:
28 When he established the clouds above: when he strengthened the fountains of the deep:
29 When he gave to the sea his decree, that the waters should not pass his commandment: when he appointed the foundations of the earth:
30 Then I was by him, as one brought up with him: and I was daily his delight, rejoicing always before him;
31 Rejoicing in the habitable part of his earth; and my delights were with the sons of men.
32 Now therefore hearken unto me, O ye children: for blessed are they that keep my ways.
KJV
 

Dodo_David

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1 Corinthians 9:13-14 (ESV): " Do you not know that those who are employed in the temple service get their food from the temple, and those who serve at the altar share in the sacrificial offerings? In the same way, the Lord commanded that those who proclaim the gospel should get their living by the gospel."

The above-quoted verses tells us that it is proper for pastors to receive an income from whatever congregations that they serve. However, the verses do not excuse the practice of a pastor taking a salary that is larger than the average salary of people within the congregation.
 

marksman

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Asyncritus said:
The above posts are wonderful illustrations of what happens when the scriptural precedents in the NT are totally ignored and man's thinking substituted.

Consider:

1 Where are the paid 'priests', 'theologians', 'ministers', 'bishops', 'archbishops', 'cardinals', 'popes' etc etc in the NT? Answer: Nowhere to be seen.

2 Paul worked with his own hands as a tentmaker to feed himself. What did Jesus do? Didn't have anywhere to lay His head. Had a collection bag, which was robbed by Judas. We have no examples of paid workers in the church.

That says something about the 'church' today, doesn't it? Nothing good, that's for sure.

3 Where are the monumental church buildings costing zillions in the NT? Answer, nowhere to be seen.

4 Which church in the NT had possessions amounting to billions and billions of dollars, pounds, etc when the poor of the world starved? Answer: none of them.

Just think: the sale of half a dozen of the great paintings in the vatican, or the sale of half of the property of the anglican church in the UK, would feed half the population of Calcutta for a year - at the Waldorf Astoria and Dorchester hotels. With change left over.

5 And all these incredible 'Crystal Churches' and mansions, and fantastic church buildings owned by the denominations, what about them?

Jesus had nowhere to lay His head - He said so. So why does the 'church', which calls upon His Name, and His Father's Name, possess all these things?

And if you belong to one of them, shouldn't you reconsider your position?
In my opinion, this is the best post so far.

According to the megachurch and millionaire church leaders criteria, Jesus and Paul were failures.

Now, let us get down to the nitty gritty. I don't agree with paid pastors because they didn't exist in the NT Church, but if you insist on ignoring scripture and pay someone to be a christian, this is the formula that should be used.

Because every ministry is a servant ministry, not a lord it over ministry, here is my suggestion.

Salary. This should be the same as the average salary of the people in the church, ignoring the highest and lowest paid. So if the average salary is $50,000, that is what he should be paid. No more and no less.

House. Find out the average price of a house in the area and that is what should be spent on one for the pastor.

Car. If employees in the congregation are given a car to do their job, give the pastor one and choose one that is an average model of those whose employees are given one. If no one owns a Jaguar, the pastor doesn't get one.

Benefits. If members of the congregation get a book allowance from their job, average them out and pay him that. If no one gets a book allowance, neither does he.

If they get a travelling allowance average it out and pay him one. if they don't, he doesn't.

If the congregation get a telephone allowance at home, average it out and pay him one. If they don't, he doesn't get one.

If members of the congregation have their utility bills paid by their employer, average them out and pay his. If they don't the church does not pay his.

Why is this logical?

Simple. He is an employee of the church who chose to apply for the job of pastor, so he is no better than anyone else in the congregation. He is a person who is paid to do what he is employed to do so it is no use complaining about the long hours and the hard work. They made the choice so don't whinge and bear in mind everyone else does it all for free.

As the role of pastor is a servant ministry, having no more or no less than anyone else will deal with his pride and his idea he is a cut above the rest.

In addition it will deal with those pastors whose main interest is climbing the ladder of success so that he can move on to bigger and better things with more pay and more perks so his only commitment is to himself.

And it certainly will put the church in a better light with the world because they will see we are not interested in cultivating celebrity preachers bearing in mind we tend to like the kudos that goes with a well known and/or personality preacher.
 

Dodo_David

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afaithfulone4u said:
Then I will take it that you are NOT looking forward to walking on streets of gold in heaven or for your mansion?
When the KJV was originally published, the English word mansion referred simply to a room or apartment within a larger building.
The word did not refer to a huge, luxurious house.

See "A Lesson in Ethnocentricity" for an explanation of the origin of mansion.

Besides, in the Greek texts, the word in John 14:2 isn't mansions. Instead, the word is μοναὶ, which transliterated into English as monai.

In his book Word Meanings in the New Testament, Dr. Ralph Earle states, "The correct rendering of monai is "dwelling places" (NASB) or "rooms" (NIV)."*

[*Quote Source: Ralph Earle, Word Meanings in the New Testament (Baker Book House: 1986), p. 92. ]
 

aspen

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i am conflicted about this issue as well. Megachurch pastors do work hard and their talents are needed. Although, living with little wealth is a sigh of spiritual maturity. i not in favor of Vatican wealth and i am glad the new pope is concerned about it. Based on my income last year, i am well below the poverty line, but eat everyday and feel secure.......this a hard issue to discuss, but a good one.