Fact or Fiction

[charity]

Hello there,

During the isolation resulting from the corona virus I have been watching a series set in the beautiful countryside of Canada. It is easy on the eye and on the mind to relax at the end of the day.

However, I hear Satan's lie running through the thread of the story-line concerning the state of the dead. The misconception concerning the ability of the dead to see, hear, feel or hold an opinion. Yet it is not only in the sphere of fiction that this is advanced, but from the lips and by the writings of those who profess to believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and to know the word of God.

In Christ Jesus
Chris

 

[APAK]

Interesting, timely and discerning on your behalf. What pops up in my mind instantly is the country side scene shown to Winston in the movie 1984.

Bless you,

APAK

 

[Windmillcharge]

Satan's lie running through the thread of the story-line concerning the state of the dead. The misconception concerning the ability of the dead to see, hear, feel or hold an opinion.

Saten is subtle he will use every and any means to create distance between an unbelieving world and God's truth.
Entertaining drama's, comedy, 'factual' programs, children's horrible histories.

His aim is to populate hell with the lost, some how thinking this will defeat God.

 

[DNB]

Hello there,

During the isolation resulting from the corona virus I have been watching a series set in the beautiful countryside of Canada. It is easy on the eye and on the mind to relax at the end of the day.

However, I hear Satan's lie running through the thread of the story-line concerning the state of the dead. The misconception concerning the ability of the dead to see, hear, feel or hold an opinion. Yet it is not only in the sphere of fiction that this is advanced, but from the lips and by the writings of those who profess to believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and to know the word of God.

In Christ Jesus
Chris

Pure fiction, ..as you know. But, you didn't specify, are you saying that these spirits are vivified and animated on earth?
Because, one who adheres to soul-awake theory, will obviously affirm that, yes, the dead are conscious, alive and kicking, in shoel/hades, as in the whole Lazarus parable.
I don't subscribe to soul-awake doctrine, but rather that every human on earth, believer or not, that upon death, they are unconscious, dormant and unseen, and have absolutely no impact on the living. They are asleep and inanimate, awaiting the Second Coming of Christ.
So, again, in regard to your question, I would assert an emphatic 'fiction'.

 

[marks]

John 11
23 Jesus saith unto her, Thy brother shall rise again.
24 Martha saith unto him, I know that he shall rise again in the resurrection at the last day.
25 Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live:
26 And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?
27 She saith unto him, Yea, Lord: I believe that thou art the Christ, the Son of God, which should come into the world.

 

[charity]

John 11
23 Jesus saith unto her, Thy brother shall rise again.
24 Martha saith unto him, I know that he shall rise again in the resurrection at the last day.
25 Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live:
26 And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?
27 She saith unto him, Yea, Lord: I believe that thou art the Christ, the Son of God, which should come into the world.

Hello Marks,

What do you intend me to infer from this reference regarding what you believe concerning the state of the dead?

In Christ Jesus
Chris

 

[marks]

Hello Marks,

What do you intend me to infer from this reference regarding what you believe concerning the state of the dead?

In Christ Jesus
Chris

Infer? I don't know.

Jesus' question I think goes to all of us. If we live and believe in Him we never die. Do we believe this?

Do we "die for a little while"?

Much love!

 

[marks]

1 Thessalonians 4
13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.
14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.

Curious . . . who are these? Them also which sleep in Jesus?

 

[Joseph77]

Ekklesia who have lived on earth and who 'died'.

 

[charity]

Infer? I don't know.

Jesus' question I think goes to all of us. If we live and believe in Him we never die. Do we believe this?

Do we "die for a little while"?

Much love!

1 Thessalonians 4
13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.
14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.

Curious . . . who are these? Them also which sleep in Jesus?

Hello there, @marks,

Thank you for responding to my enquiry.

Everyone dies, believer and unbeliever alike. Yet, in God's eyes those who have the hope of eternal life in Christ Jesus, sleep in Him, awaiting that glorious day, when all will be raised. Until then our life is hid with Christ in God, awaiting His appearing, when we shall appear with Him in glory.

In Christ Jesus
Chris

 

[Joseph77]

Good.
Realize, after you get a long winter's night sleep, 12 hours even,

or awake from unconsciencenss, like a coma for 12 weeks or 12 months even,

it seems like no time has passed.

So also in the Resurrection - Everyone Jesus Raises from the grave, it is "twinkling of an eye" to them - just as if they dozed off ONE PART of a SECOND. Not as if days, weeks, years or even centuries....

So this relieves the trouble , it solves the crisis, some people have when their group tells them teachings or doctrines around something called "soul sleep". There's no need for such teachings or doctrines at all. The reality is simple, and not contrary to any Scripture.

 

[marks]

Hello there, @marks,

Thank you for responding to my enquiry.

Everyone dies, believer and unbeliever alike. Yet, in God's eyes those who have the hope of eternal life in Christ Jesus, sleep in Him, awaiting that glorious day, when all will be raised. Until then our life is hid with Christ in God, awaiting His appearing, when we shall appear with Him in glory.

In Christ Jesus
Chris

Hi Chris,

Question, in this "sleeping", does the dead person retain their identity? That is, is there a dormant person somewhere, not meaning like people waiting in graves, but do you understand my question?

Much love!

 

[charity]

Hi Chris,

Question, in this "sleeping", does the dead person retain their identity? That is, is there a dormant person somewhere, not meaning like people waiting in graves, but do you understand my question?

Much love!

Hello @marks,

You ask, 'does the dead person retain their identity?' I believe so, marks, because of such expectations as David's, expressed in Psalm 17:15, he expected to awake with the likeness of His Lord, to behold His face in righteousness. Similarly with Job, who could profess that He knew that His Redeemer lived, and that He would stand upon the earth in the latter day, and that though his body should see corruption in death, that in his flesh he would see God (Job 19:25-27); and again in Job 14:-

'But man dieth, and wasteth away:
.. yea, man giveth up the ghost, and where is he?
.... As the waters fail from the sea, and the flood decayeth and drieth up:
...... So man lieth down, and riseth not:
........ till the heavens be no more,
.......... they shall not awake,
............ nor be raised out of their sleep.
O that Thou wouldest hide me in the grave,
.. that Thou wouldest keep me secret, until Thy wrath be past,
.... that Thou wouldest appoint me a set time, and remember me!
If a man die, shall he live again?
.. all the days of my appointed time will I wait,
.... till my change come.
Thou shalt call, and I will answer Thee:
Thou wilt have a desire to the work of Thine hands.'
(Job 14:10-15)

For the believer, his life is hid with Christ in God (Colossians 3:3): for of God is he in Christ Jesus (1 Corinthians 1:30). We are in Him now, in God's estimation, while we yet live. Praise God! When Christ appears in glory, then we too shall appear there with Him.

Oh, Marks what a glorious hope we have, don't we. How I would love to talk this through further, for there is so much more, isn't there (1 Corinthians 15 etc.,)?

The death state is spoken of by Paul as an 'unclothed' state (2 Corinthians 5:4), of being imperfect (body and spirit not being united) (Hebrews 11:40 & Hebrews 12:23).

Man does not have an immortal soul, for the soul that sinneth it shall die. So, if it is not immortal, at death it does not continue to live in any form. It requires the power of the resurrection to quicken it into life and raise it from the dead.

Thank you, Marks.
In Christ Jesus
our risen and glorified
Saviour, Lord and Head.
Chris

 

[marks]

Hello @marks,

You ask, 'does the dead person retain their identity?' I believe so, marks, because of such expectations as David's, expressed in Psalm 17:15, he expected to awake with the likeness of His Lord, to behold His face in righteousness. Similarly with Job, who could profess that He knew that His Redeemer lived, and that He would stand upon the earth in the latter day, and that though his body should see corruption in death, that in his flesh he would see God (Job 19:25-27); and again in Job 14:-

'But man dieth, and wasteth away:
.. yea, man giveth up the ghost, and where is he?
.... As the waters fail from the sea, and the flood decayeth and drieth up:
...... So man lieth down, and riseth not:
........ till the heavens be no more,
.......... they shall not awake,
............ nor be raised out of their sleep.
O that Thou wouldest hide me in the grave,
.. that Thou wouldest keep me secret, until Thy wrath be past,
.... that Thou wouldest appoint me a set time, and remember me!
If a man die, shall he live again?
.. all the days of my appointed time will I wait,
.... till my change come.
Thou shalt call, and I will answer Thee:
Thou wilt have a desire to the work of Thine hands.'
(Job 14:10-15)

For the believer, his life is hid with Christ in God (Colossians 3:3): for of God is he in Christ Jesus (1 Corinthians 1:30). We are in Him now, in God's estimation, while we yet live. Praise God! When Christ appears in glory, then we too shall appear there with Him.

Oh, Marks what a glorious hope we have, don't we. How I would love to talk this through further, for there is so much more, isn't there (1 Corinthians 15 etc.,)?

The death state is spoken of by Paul as an 'unclothed' state (2 Corinthians 5:4), of being imperfect (body and spirit not being united) (Hebrews 11:40 & Hebrews 12:23).

Man does not have an immortal soul, for the soul that sinneth it shall die. So, if it is not immortal, at death it does not continue to live in any form. It requires the power of the resurrection to quicken it into life and raise it from the dead.

Thank you, Marks.
In Christ Jesus
our risen and glorified
Saviour, Lord and Head.
Chris

Hi Chris,

So then the person who is saved and has died, they actually are still somewhere?

The reason I ask is that I've heard some say that the dead are "dissolved" and "reconstituted", that is, the body returns to dust, the spirit of life returns to God, and that person doesn't really exist at that time.

Then at the resurrection, God give a body, and gives the spirit of life, and that person exists again.

But in your view, that person never ceases to be, correct?

Much love!

 

[marks]

Good.
Realize, after you get a long winter's night sleep, 12 hours even,

or awake from unconsciencenss, like a coma for 12 weeks or 12 months even,

it seems like no time has passed.

So also in the Resurrection - Everyone Jesus Raises from the grave, it is "twinkling of an eye" to them - just as if they dozed off ONE PART of a SECOND. Not as if days, weeks, years or even centuries....

So this relieves the trouble , it solves the crisis, some people have when their group tells them teachings or doctrines around something called "soul sleep". There's no need for such teachings or doctrines at all. The reality is simple, and not contrary to any Scripture.

Where are they during that time?

Where are the dead in Christ Right Now?

 

[marks]

We are in Him now, in God's estimation, while we yet live.

Hi Chris,

On this part, I just noticed that you wrote, "in God's estimation". What does that mean, in His estimation?

I'm figuring that that we are a new creation who lives in heaven with God, while also living in these bodies here on earth.

Aren't we "hid with Christ in God" now, as a point of fact? Or are you thinking this is a metaphor?

I think our unity with our Creator, having been reborn from Him, means much more than many may think.

Much love!

 

[charity]

Hi Chris,

So then the person who is saved and has died, they actually are still somewhere?

The reason I ask is that I've heard some say that the dead are "dissolved" and "reconstituted", that is, the body returns to dust, the spirit of life returns to God, and that person doesn't really exist at that time.

Then at the resurrection, God give a body, and gives the spirit of life, and that person exists again.

But in your view, that person never ceases to be, correct?

Much love!

Hello @marks,

No, death means the absence of life. There is no life apart from resurrection. The believer is reckoned by God as being 'asleep in Christ', simply because he has the hope of eternal life at the resurrection from the dead, so for him death has no dominion.

Thank you
In Christ Jesus
Chris

 

[marks]

Hello @marks,

No, death means the absence of life. There is no life apart from resurrection. The believer is reckoned by God as being 'asleep in Christ', simply because he has the hope of eternal life at the resurrection from the dead, so for him death has no dominion.

Thank you
In Christ Jesus
Chris

OK, so then the dead in Christ ceases to exist until restored by God?

Much love!

 

[Enoch111]

The misconception concerning the ability of the dead to see, hear, feel or hold an opinion.

According to the Bible, the dead are very much awake and alive. So what is your objection? They are either awake in Heaven or in Hades.

THE SAINTS ARE ALL IN THE NEW JERUSALEM AND LIVING WITNESSES
Wherefore seeing we also are compassed about with so great a cloud of witnesses, let us lay aside every weight, and the sin which doth so easily beset us, and let us run with patience the race that is set before us... But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels, To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect, And to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling, that speaketh better things than that of Abel. (Heb 12:1,22-24)

Jesus said that the living God is not the God of the dead but of the living -- alive, awake, and aware.
And as touching the dead, that they rise: have ye not read in the book of Moses, how in the bush God spake unto him, saying, I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob? He is not the God of the dead, but the God of the living: ye therefore do greatly err. (Mark 12:26,27)

 

[Waiting on him]