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Oct 31, 2019
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The word “faith” generates a disproportionate amount of confusion in conversations about epistemology. Colloquially, the word “faith” is interchangeable with the word “trust.” The accusation that we all exhibit faith in our sources of knowledge is grounded on an equivocation with the concept of trust. If the meaning of “faith” always directly paralleled the meaning of “trust”, then it would resolve much confusion assuming everyone has the same understanding of what it means to trust. For example, you might trust an apple exists at the grocery store despite the fact that you are not on location to observe it. The foundation of your trust in this case is based on implicit empirical evidence you have collected from previous visits to the grocery store where you consistently observed apples in the produce section. Therefore, the application of faith here is reasonable because it refers to a conceptual truth as supported by an implicit empirical foundation. However, having a reasonable faith in a claim does not mean the claim is empirically true or that you can claim to know it is empirically true.

Conversely, if you had no prior knowledge of apples being sold at the grocery store, you would lack the implicit empirical foundation upon which your faith in the claim would be justified. Likewise, if your prior experiences with grocery stores were that they never maintained a supply of apples in the produce section, trusting the aforementioned claim would not be reasonable because the implicit empirical evidence would contradict it in this case. Similarly, if a grocery store advertises "eternal salvation" for sale, you would have neither a conceptual nor implicit empirical basis to have faith in the advertisement. In fact, the available conceptual and implicit empirical evidence would better justify faith in the alternative claim which suggests "eternal salvation" is more likely the brand name of some type of food product.

Now, consider how the word “faith” is used in the following statement, “It is by faith I know eternal salvation is sold at the grocery store.” Here, faith is given as the method (epistemology) used to distinguish knowledge from belief. When the word “trust” is substituted for the word “faith” in this context, the statement suggests I acquired such knowledge by trusting the grocery store can sell me eternal salvation. However, there is no objective reason given to justify why that particular claim should be trusted. Therefore, my decision to trust the claim must have either been arbitrary or influenced by some form of undisclosed bias. As such, I could have equally chosen not to trust that particular claim for some arbitrary or biased reason and applied my faith towards another competing or contradictory claim instead. This ability to achieve multiple different or contradictory conclusions through the application of the same method exposes the unreliability of using faith as an epistemological foundation for acquiring a functional knowledge base.
 

Berserk

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Apr 13, 2019
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@BlueGreenEarth

In the biblical sense, the word "faith" must be conceived differently than your characterization. In both "Hebrew" ("amunah") and Greek ("pistis") the word translated faith connotes "faithfulness." This nuance acutely raises the relevance of the classic Christian philosophical foundation of Christian theism (St. Augustine and St. Anselm), which can be expressed thus: "I do not seek to understand in order to believe; rather, I seek to believe in order to understand." God (and not analytic philosophers) gets to establish the epistemological principles and processes by which a personal relationship with God can be established. God's principles include a burning spiritual quest that provisionally accepts the possibility of a life-changing contact with God. The key question for this quest is what price you would be willing to pay if God made Himself real to your satisfaction in your own experience. The required price in aptly expressed by C. T. Studd, famed 19th century missionary to China: "If Christ be God and died for me, then no sacrifice is too great for me to make for Him." It is not enough to simply say, "If the Christian God made Himself real to my satisfaction, I just maY become a regular attender and financial supporter of a local church." The biblical Christ insists that either He be Lord of ALL your life or not Lord at all. So you can use various philosophical sophistries to keep God comfortably at bay and your posts will amount to little more than a trivial joust with irrelevant mental gymnastics. But if you want to be taken seriously as an honest truth seeker, then these must be your first 3 steps:

(1) You must agree to PROVISIONALLY operate with God's epistemology to determine whether the desired end result--an intimate relationship with God--can be produced on His terms in that way.
(2) You must achieve clarity about what price in terms of life commitment you would be willing to pay to prompt God to make Himself real to you to your satisfaction. If you meet God's conditions, God will meet you in a convincing and life-changing way.
(3) You must recognize this foundational syllogism as the basis for your quest.
Our arguments about God's existence are only as good as our core assumptions.
Our core assumptions derive from our life experience.
Therefore, to establish God's existence, we must open our heart to new self-authenticating spiritual experiences, experiences that might transform our network of quest assumptions in a more God-friendly way.

To get this conversation started in a productive way, I have 2 suggestions:
(1) Read my developing thread entitled "My Journey through the Lens of My Paranormal and Charismatic Experiences" in the Testimonial section of this site and post your reactions and questions to that thread here. Note: the best is yet to come on that thread!
(2) Share the basics of how your own life journey has shaped your epistemological framework and your resulting attitudes towards Christianity.
 

Nomad

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This ability to achieve multiple different or contradictory conclusions through the application of the same method exposes the unreliability of using faith as an epistemological foundation for acquiring a functional knowledge base.

I don't know how you came to the conclusion that "faith" as it is found in Scripture is without empirical foundation. I suspect that it comes from an ignorance of those very Scriptures. Biblical faith is not an end in and of itself. It always has an object. That object is God, who he is, his character, and his past actions or dealings with mankind. The Bible is full of such examples. One should suffice for now. Read Hebrews chapter 11, taking special note of verse 6. This chapter is replete with examples of "reasons to believe or trust."

Heb 11:1 Now faith is the assurance of things hoped for, the conviction of things not seen.
Heb 11:2 For by it the people of old received their commendation.
Heb 11:3 By faith we understand that the universe was created by the word of God, so that what is seen was not made out of things that are visible.
Heb 11:4 By faith Abel offered to God a more acceptable sacrifice than Cain, through which he was commended as righteous, God commending him by accepting his gifts. And through his faith, though he died, he still speaks.
Heb 11:5 By faith Enoch was taken up so that he should not see death, and he was not found, because God had taken him. Now before he was taken he was commended as having pleased God.
Heb 11:6 And without faith it is impossible to please him, for whoever would draw near to God must believe that he exists and that he rewards those who seek him.
Heb 11:7 By faith Noah, being warned by God concerning events as yet unseen, in reverent fear constructed an ark for the saving of his household. By this he condemned the world and became an heir of the righteousness that comes by faith.
Heb 11:8 By faith Abraham obeyed when he was called to go out to a place that he was to receive as an inheritance. And he went out, not knowing where he was going.
Heb 11:9 By faith he went to live in the land of promise, as in a foreign land, living in tents with Isaac and Jacob, heirs with him of the same promise.
Heb 11:10 For he was looking forward to the city that has foundations, whose designer and builder is God.
Heb 11:11 By faith Sarah herself received power to conceive, even when she was past the age, since she considered him faithful who had promised.
Heb 11:12 Therefore from one man, and him as good as dead, were born descendants as many as the stars of heaven and as many as the innumerable grains of sand by the seashore.
Heb 11:13 These all died in faith, not having received the things promised, but having seen them and greeted them from afar, and having acknowledged that they were strangers and exiles on the earth.
Heb 11:14 For people who speak thus make it clear that they are seeking a homeland.
Heb 11:15 If they had been thinking of that land from which they had gone out, they would have had opportunity to return.
Heb 11:16 But as it is, they desire a better country, that is, a heavenly one. Therefore God is not ashamed to be called their God, for he has prepared for them a city.
Heb 11:17 By faith Abraham, when he was tested, offered up Isaac, and he who had received the promises was in the act of offering up his only son,
Heb 11:18 of whom it was said, “Through Isaac shall your offspring be named.”
Heb 11:19 He considered that God was able even to raise him from the dead, from which, figuratively speaking, he did receive him back.
Heb 11:20 By faith Isaac invoked future blessings on Jacob and Esau.
Heb 11:21 By faith Jacob, when dying, blessed each of the sons of Joseph, bowing in worship over the head of his staff.
Heb 11:22 By faith Joseph, at the end of his life, made mention of the exodus of the Israelites and gave directions concerning his bones.
Heb 11:23 By faith Moses, when he was born, was hidden for three months by his parents, because they saw that the child was beautiful, and they were not afraid of the king's edict.
Heb 11:24 By faith Moses, when he was grown up, refused to be called the son of Pharaoh's daughter,
Heb 11:25 choosing rather to be mistreated with the people of God than to enjoy the fleeting pleasures of sin.
Heb 11:26 He considered the reproach of Christ greater wealth than the treasures of Egypt, for he was looking to the reward.
Heb 11:27 By faith he left Egypt, not being afraid of the anger of the king, for he endured as seeing him who is invisible.
Heb 11:28 By faith he kept the Passover and sprinkled the blood, so that the Destroyer of the firstborn might not touch them.
Heb 11:29 By faith the people crossed the Red Sea as on dry land, but the Egyptians, when they attempted to do the same, were drowned.
Heb 11:30 By faith the walls of Jericho fell down after they had been encircled for seven days.
Heb 11:31 By faith Rahab the prostitute did not perish with those who were disobedient, because she had given a friendly welcome to the spies.
Heb 11:32 And what more shall I say? For time would fail me to tell of Gideon, Barak, Samson, Jephthah, of David and Samuel and the prophets—
Heb 11:33 who through faith conquered kingdoms, enforced justice, obtained promises, stopped the mouths of lions,
Heb 11:34 quenched the power of fire, escaped the edge of the sword, were made strong out of weakness, became mighty in war, put foreign armies to flight.
Heb 11:35 Women received back their dead by resurrection. Some were tortured, refusing to accept release, so that they might rise again to a better life.
Heb 11:36 Others suffered mocking and flogging, and even chains and imprisonment.
Heb 11:37 They were stoned, they were sawn in two, they were killed with the sword. They went about in skins of sheep and goats, destitute, afflicted, mistreated—
Heb 11:38 of whom the world was not worthy—wandering about in deserts and mountains, and in dens and caves of the earth.
Heb 11:39 And all these, though commended through their faith, did not receive what was promised,
Heb 11:40 since God had provided something better for us, that apart from us they should not be made perfect.
 

Invisibilis

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Nov 9, 2017
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True faith is unconditional surrender to what we know is true. In that unconditionality, Truth merges with our consciousness, and everything becomes obviously clear and true/honest/real. Everything becomes perfectly okay the way it is. No needs/wants. Truth-filled. Illumination.

The slightest hint of conditionality makes faith / trust dishonestly self-serving.
 

Windmillcharge

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Dec 21, 2017
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However, having a reasonable faith in a claim does not mean the claim is empirically true or that you can claim to know it is empirically true.
Perfectly true, your two problems are.
Christianity is based on historical fact, not purely on blind faith.
and
You claim to be an atheist. Please present your evidence that shows there is no God, or is atheism blind faith?
 

DNB

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Dec 8, 2019
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Faith is wisdom, otherwise it's credulity. All true faith is based on empirical evidence, but in wisdom, faith then takes that evidence to its logical conclusion. This is the meaning of hope in things not seen, or that have not materialized yet. Faith is practiced every day by theists and atheists alike. A father has faith in one child over another, so he gives one the car, and waits a few more years before he lets the other drive, all based on historical empirical evidence. Only a fool puts his faith in something that he can't explain why, ....which, in such a case, it's not faith but gullibility.

BGE, your understanding of faith is foolish, like I said, it's the most common thing under the sun. Spouses have faith in one another, employers have faith in some employees over others for a new project, all determined by performance in the past. Faith is wisdom, that is, may the wisest man determine the outcome. For there are even contentions between two beholders of faith, whether if one is justified in having faith in another or not, i.e. if one's faith is misguided or lacking insight. One has faith that a person will fail, while the other believes that they won't, all based on discernment and insight, not guesswork.

Faith is a profound and glorious disposition, this is why God implemented it as the means towards salvation, it reveals the deepest sentiments of man. Only an ignorant fool confuses it with credulity, and cannot tell the difference when one is employing one over the other.
God is real, and this is discerned by the most blatant and intrinsic empirical evidence that there is, creation, and the spirit within man. Only a blind, superficial fool does not recognize from where his introspective thoughts and awareness come from, nor where his breathe of life comes from. Nor does he realize that he is not here by his own volition, and yet he clings on to life in such a selfish and desperate manner that you'd think he orchestrated the whole thing himself.