1. Welcome to Christian Forums, a Christian Forum that recognizes that all Christians are a work in progress.

    You will need to register to be able to join in fellowship with Christians all over the world.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!

"Faith without works is dead"

Discussion in 'Praise Forum' started by VictoryinJesus, Sep 13, 2017.

  1. VictoryinJesus

    VictoryinJesus Active Member

    Messages:
    311
    Likes Received:
    189
    Faith:
    Christian
    Country:
    United States







    Stare into the eye of a storm and maybe, just maybe, we can see a fraction of God’s power. Hearing the roar and wailing sounds within Irma made me consider the God I will one day stand before and this became very clear:

    No amount of work I do here on earth will serve as a cover for my iniquities and sin against a Holy God. I could spend EVERY SINGLE moment of my life in good deeds: serving the poor, paying tithes (100%), housing orphans…and still, nothing I provide would serve as cover. I could follow the footsteps of Mother Teresa. The footsteps of the Pope. None of it would get me an entrance through that narrow gate into the kingdom and before the throne.

    Stare again into the eye of a storm.
    There is only ONE cover that will withstand the judgment and wrath of God.
    Only ONE.
    The COVER God provided.

    We speak a lot about faith equals works. Whose works? My life should not declare more of me. My life should declare more of Him. Does your works declare you? Or does HIS work in your life declare Him. We had a preacher come to our home to teach us on “kingdom living”, the thought behind it being God wants to give us territory. That, as the children of God, we are able to seize and take possession of our community, possession of our town.

    Faith equals work...should declare Christ. Not our name.

    The vulnerable and the weak: Heroes from the OT.

    I propose that there are no heroes other that Christ in the Old Testament. Every example given declares Christ and Christ alone. Unless we are being shown the weakness of man. When the Spirit moved....these men moved. David’s life did not declare David. David’s life declared Christ. Samson’s life did not declare Samson. Samson’s life declared Christ.

    Men of weakness. Men of strength.
    We admire their strength. We ignore their weaknesses.

    The valiant men of the Old Testament…declare ONE. The LORD.

    David: Lacked self-control. He stole another man’s wife. He also slayed Goliath with five smooth stones. Who really slayed Goliath?

    Samson: Unpredictable and out of control. Or was he? Samson tore off the gate and carried it up the hill on his shoulders. He took honey out of the carcase of the lion; did eat, and gave to his mother and father to eat. He took down more enemies in his death, then he did in his life. Who really tore the gate off? Who really took honey from the carcase of the lion? who really defeated the enemy through death?

    Jacob: a scoundrel. A sheep that tricks his father by covering himself with goat; receives the Fathers blessing. Who did Jacob’s life declare? Jacob? Or Christ?

    Noah: Built and ark. He planted a vineyard. He also got drunk. When destruction comes…who are we found safe in? The door shut. Only opened and shut by God.

    Moses: Led his people, he talked with God. He also stuttered, had anger issues and lacked self-control. The first man ever to break all the ten commands at one time. Christ also leads His people, and He talks with God. The LORD is strong; where Moses is weak.

    Ezekiel: called down fire on the sacrifice, caused it to not rain for three and a half years, then called the rain back. He raised the widow’s son from the dead. A valiant man, but Ezekiel hid whenever Jezebel barked at him a little. Man's weakness. Christ's strength.

    Gideon: He was a coward. The Spirit put him on like a glove.

    What about Abraham? Where was he weak? Where was he strong? How did His life declare Christ?

    We debate: did Paul start the church? Or was it Peter? Neither.
    The LORD (Christ) started the church. It began with Moses, a tent and a congregation.

    I pray, that anyone reading this, that at the end of your vapor-of-a-life here: The works of your life(HIS) will declare Christ. And less of you.
     
    Last edited: Sep 13, 2017
    DPMartin, FHII, Creek6 and 3 others like this.
  2. breathofdesire

    breathofdesire Active Member

    Messages:
    199
    Likes Received:
    107
    Faith:
    Christian
    Country:
    Australia
    Hopefully.
     
  3. "ByGrace"

    "ByGrace" Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    1,297
    Likes Received:
    956
    Faith:
    Christian
    Country:
    Canada
    @VictoryinJesus Amen! Well said...great post. Just going back to re read it again.
    Bless you....H
     
    Creek6 and pia like this.
  4. pia

    pia Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    946
    Likes Received:
    577
    Faith:
    Christian
    Country:
    Australia
  5. FHII

    FHII Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    2,524
    Likes Received:
    296
    Faith:
    Christian
    Country:
    United States
    Absolutely wonderful! I still call them heroes... But in every case you are right... They are only heoes because God made them so.
     
    "ByGrace" likes this.
  6. FHII

    FHII Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    2,524
    Likes Received:
    296
    Faith:
    Christian
    Country:
    United States
    Galatians 2:16 KJV
    Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.

    I wanted to share this because even though we are told seval times in the Bible that we must have faith in Christ, this verse point to the faith Jesus had... Not our own. Now I believe its all the same faith. Christ is in us, right? Our faith is Jesus's. But even our faith is credited to Jesus (at least according to this verse).
     
    Armadillo likes this.
  7. Job

    Job Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    1,618
    Likes Received:
    586
    Faith:
    Christian
    Country:
    United States
    Even so, faith without works is dead.

    It's a part of the Word and shouldn't be ignored.
     
    Last edited: Sep 14, 2017
    GodsGrace likes this.
  8. "ByGrace"

    "ByGrace" Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    1,297
    Likes Received:
    956
    Faith:
    Christian
    Country:
    Canada
    That all depends on what works. I don't know about you...but however much I fast, pray, read the bible, witness, give money...it is still nothing...just me "trying"...I did it for YEARS...
    The works I 100% believe , is just that , BELIEVING on Him who He sent.
    We have our work cut out in staying in faith when all things go wrong, the dog dies, the baby dies, all the teeth fall out, the money is lost or whatever...being able from the heart to truly be able to say Praise God.. "Righteous art thou Oh Lord and upright are thy judgements."
    Just like the guy ( forgotten his name) who's whole family wife and kids were coming over to join him in America, and the ship went down, Titanic, he lost them all...he wept, then wrote the wonderful great hymn. "It is well with my soul". THAT to me is doing the works of faith!!
    bless you H ( BTW. where is that new avatar? :) )
     
  9. Job

    Job Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    1,618
    Likes Received:
    586
    Faith:
    Christian
    Country:
    United States

    Those aren't the "works" James is referring to.



    Had one up last night for about an hour. I didn't like it.

    Sorry.

    o
     
    GodsGrace likes this.
  10. Job

    Job Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    1,618
    Likes Received:
    586
    Faith:
    Christian
    Country:
    United States
    Here is my belief regarding works.

    James 2
    15 If a brother or sister is naked and destitute of daily food,
    16 and one of you says to them, “Depart in peace, be warmed and filled,” but you do not give them the things which are needed for the body, what does it profit?
    17 Thus also faith by itself, if it does not have works, is dead.



    This is Love your neighbor as yourself. Treat people the way you want to be treated. It's that simple.

    It's also the fulfillment of the law.


    James 2
    8 If you really fulfill the royal law according to the Scripture, “You shall love your neighbor as yourself,” you do well;



    Galatians 5
    14 For all the law is fulfilled in one word, even in this: “You shall love your neighbor as yourself.”




    There's only One commandment greater than that.

    Be faithful to the One true God and be nice to people. That's the core of the Gospel. The simplicity in Christ.


    That's how I see "works".

    o
     
    GodsGrace likes this.
  11. VictoryinJesus

    VictoryinJesus Active Member

    Messages:
    311
    Likes Received:
    189
    Faith:
    Christian
    Country:
    United States
    Job, I must have a hard time clearly understanding your post. Forgive me. Are you saying: we do the work. Or are you saying Christ does the work? I don’t think anyone is arguing that "faith produces works". The argument, and the going 'round and 'round, seems to be: whose works are produces by faith? Wake up this morning and convince yourself to go do good. It will all be in vain. Without faith; the Spirit is not there, and all work is dead and useless; it goes nowhere…declaring more of self. Rather than declaring Christ. Faith absolutely produces works: which is clear evidence of the Spirit. Not by our own doing, but by Christ. Agree? Or disagree? :confused:
     
    Armadillo, "ByGrace" and Pisteuo like this.
  12. VictoryinJesus

    VictoryinJesus Active Member

    Messages:
    311
    Likes Received:
    189
    Faith:
    Christian
    Country:
    United States
    John 15:4-15 KJV

    [4] Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me. [5] I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing. [6] If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned.

    [7] If ye abide in me, and my words abide in you, ye shall ask what ye will, and it shall be done unto you. [8] Herein is my Father glorified, that ye bear much fruit; so shall ye be my disciples. What a wonderful promise. Who is declared? “Herein is my Father glorified…”

    [9] As the Father hath loved me, so have I loved you: continue ye in my love. [10] If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his love. [11] These things have I spoken unto you, that my joy might remain in you, and that your joy might be full. [12] This is my commandment, That ye love one another, as I have loved you. [13] Greater love hath no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends. [14] Ye are my friends, if ye do whatsoever I command you. [15] Henceforth I call you not servants; for the servant knoweth not what his lord doeth: but I have called you friends; for all things that I have heard of my Father I have made known unto you.

    Romans 5:5 KJV

    [5] And hope maketh not ashamed; because the love of God is shed abroad in our hearts by the Holy Ghost which is given unto us.

    Who does the work? The love of God is shed in our hearts BY the Holy Ghost. Love (produced by the Holy Ghost) produces works.

    Acts 2:32-33 KJV

    [32] This Jesus hath God raised up, whereof we all are witnesses. [33] Therefore being by the right hand of God exalted, and having received of the Father the promise of the Holy Ghost, he hath shed forth this, which ye now see and hear.

    Works is what the Spirit bares.
    It is Spirit that bares fruit.
    Man is a vessel, a bowl, a cup....


    What work is produced by the Holy Ghost, declares Christ through us.

    Galatians 5:22-25 KJV

    [22] But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, [23] Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law. [24] And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts. [25] If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit.

    Against such there is no law. Why? (I am paraphrasing) Christ said He brings us a new commandment. Christ brings us a New Testament. Christ brings the Spirit. There is no law against the Spirit, no law against the fruit of the Spirit because the Spirit does not practice a law. The Spirit is The Law. The Spirit does what is commanded by God. The Spirit searches the depths of God and speaks only truth and goodness and righteousness.

    The only power we have aside from the Spirit, is to impeach the Spirit. To grieve the Spirit. Make no mistake, our flesh is powerful and very effective at quenching the Spirit.

    Galatians 5:19-21 KJV

    [19] Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these ; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness, [20] Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies, [21] Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.

    What do they not inherit? Because there is no fruit. There is no Spirit. No Work of the Spirit, no declaration of Christ. Faith without works is dead.

    What does the Holy Ghost produce? What does Love do? (1 Corinthians 13)

    Without the Spirt…you have David without love.
    Without the Spirit…you have Samson without love.
    Without the Spirit…you have Moses without love.
    Without the Spirit...you have Paul without love. "sounding brass, or a tinkling cymbal."
    Without the Spirit…you have a hostile heart. Set against God. A hallow shell barking out excellency and great swelling words.

    These men of old were there for our example.
    That is why Paul said: go back, examine yourself. Is Christ there?

    "Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith. But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster. For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus." (Galatians 3: 24-26)

    Let us pray violently, with all sincerity the Spirit to declare Christ. The result will be persecution. So, let us pray fear of persecution is cast out. Pray, the fruit of the Spirit (which is Christ) will be for someone else.
     
    Last edited: Sep 14, 2017
  13. "ByGrace"

    "ByGrace" Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    1,297
    Likes Received:
    956
    Faith:
    Christian
    Country:
    Canada
    Well Job, it seems you find yourself surrounded by the ladies here! :D
    I have to agree with @VictoryinJesus.
    As you say in your opening statement..it is your belief..and I'm not trying to change that!! :) ( not that you would ha!)
    But I'm just saying that is also how I used to see it for the first two decades of my christian life ....because that is what and how I was taught!
    I agree 100% with your scriptures....YES..love is God's command to us...and love is the measuring-tape ( = The scales that we will be weighed in) that he will use on us on that DAY of -"trying every mans works of what sort they be..."
    These last number decades I do believe what you laid out below...but that is what I said ( or tried to say, ) in my post to you...I TRIED and tried, more and more to do all these things ,we gave away money, house hold things, even a couple of cars..( now that did make us feel very "holy"!!) .....plus hours in prayer night and morning, hours of bible study...hours and hours each week we went out to the streets , bars, Pubs, and Hotels ...talking to the drunk and sober about the lord...but, you may not believe it....our hearts were right...but it was all dead works !! o_O
    Why? Because GOD did not tell us to do this, man did!! Our dear old pastor did.
    Why?="Because that is what Christians are expected to DO!!" Right? No, wrong!!:(
    Believing Christians are supposed to wait on the Lord, and only do what they hear their Father say to do.
    John 5:19 Jesus said:- "Verily, verily, I say unto you, The Son can do nothing of himself, but what he seeth the Father do: for what things soever he doeth, these also doeth the Son likewise."
    The only things that count before God are the things that He Himself directed our steps to do. THAT is what walking in obedience is all about. We can only obey if we can hear.
    Some believe that the life of obedience is living a life of obeying the ten commandments! ( Then why a NT ?) ....No, living in obedience is living with one ear open at all times for the promptings of the Holy Spirit. Not rushing around doing all the "Charitable things"...which to be honest, many Christians admit that they do not live the mother Teresa type of life anyway. Who does?
    Again, being open here...those two "works" decades we had , do you know what they did? They made us FEEL very self-righteous and spiritual..while we looked down on all those who didn't do half that we were 'doing'. BUT, God is so faithful, on the one hand we felt very virtuous, but on the other hand ( praise God) we also felt very empty..unfulfilled, and feeling that we needed to do even more so we somehow could measured up before God and made Him happy with us!!!! What bondage, and what an image of Father!!
    I believe that is a trap and trick of the Enemy.to rob us of JOY!
    ..The enemy says "Keep 'em feeling unworthy, unhappy, and miserable, running around TRYING to please God."
    We had not yet had the revelation that "the work" was done by Jesus..and now we were called to living in the "work" of a believing, abiding, hearing relationship with God, through His Spirit. That is the work that pleases Him...seeing us "In Christ".
    So, do we do any of the works list below? Yes, when we hear it. Give money where God says to give, help the homeless down town, when we hear to do so.
    My husband is often prompted to go to the hospitals and visit the sick and pray with them. ( and like Sword used to..Dave prays for people in the Mall Food Courts or Coffee Shops if he ever hears the Lord tell him to do so.)
    Just saying Job....this is just saying how we used to believe "Work" and how we believe work and faith work now in our lives.
    But, as the word says- " Before our own Master we stand or fall.."
    Each must be persuaded in their own hearts. :)
     
    Last edited: Sep 14, 2017
    VictoryinJesus likes this.
  14. Job

    Job Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    1,618
    Likes Received:
    586
    Faith:
    Christian
    Country:
    United States

    You're focusing too much on the physical aspects of "works". Works are spiritual and are accomplished every time you are obedient to that second commandment, Love your neighbor as yourself. Every time you treat someone with respect and dignity, you are accomplishing works. Showing genuine empathy and compassion produces works that the Lord sees as He searches the hearts of His children.

    The Lord doesn't look at what you did, He looks at your reasons for doing them. If you help someone cross the street, God isn't looking at what you're doing, He's looking at the compassion you have for that individuals safety.

    Works come from the heart. One doesn't have to think about performing works, they happen automatically. And I believe it is the individual who does these works, not Jesus. He completed His work and now it's time for us to follow in His footsteps. I do believe the Spirit is there to guide us in our walk of obedience, but the works that are performed come from us.

    That's what I believe regarding works. If that's not what you believe, that's fine. I'm not here to change anybody's mind. I'm simply showing how I see it.

    o
     
    bbyrd009, pia, Pisteuo and 1 other person like this.
  15. Job

    Job Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    1,618
    Likes Received:
    586
    Faith:
    Christian
    Country:
    United States
    Ok. :)

    o
     
  16. "ByGrace"

    "ByGrace" Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    1,297
    Likes Received:
    956
    Faith:
    Christian
    Country:
    Canada
    @Job Great response to Victory above....I like how you showed that the works of Love are automatic and from within us..good point, the works we can do is obey His command to love God and Love neighbour..." Who is our neighbour Lord?"....and then He shows us the the wounded stranger needing help , having been robbed by the enemy.
    So, amen. We are not so far apart in what we believe after all. :)
    Good post. Agree.
     
    Job likes this.
  17. DPMartin

    DPMartin Active Member

    Messages:
    672
    Likes Received:
    155
    Faith:
    Christian
    Country:
    United States
    very excellent victoryinjesus, your point on just what the works are that a man like James would be speaking is correct. for instance we don't heal anyone miraculously when we want. God heals miraculously when He wants to, in your presence if He wants to.

    and when one is in the Presence such Power capable of such things:


    Php_2:12 Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.
     
    "ByGrace" likes this.
  18. "ByGrace"

    "ByGrace" Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    1,297
    Likes Received:
    956
    Faith:
    Christian
    Country:
    Canada
    Haha! I was thinking that you were talking about the "working" kind of works..the duty kind, rather than the overflowing kind which comes from the life of Jesus within us. Those kind of works are becoming 'second nature' to us .. hopefully sooner rather than later , they will become of "first" nature. :)
     
    Job likes this.
  19. VictoryinJesus

    VictoryinJesus Active Member

    Messages:
    311
    Likes Received:
    189
    Faith:
    Christian
    Country:
    United States
    ByGrace, Thank you for sharing your testimony! :)
     
    Last edited: Sep 14, 2017
  20. VictoryinJesus

    VictoryinJesus Active Member

    Messages:
    311
    Likes Received:
    189
    Faith:
    Christian
    Country:
    United States
    Job, I agree with parts of your post. And there are parts I don't agree with. I am not here to defend myself. I am going to stop talking; seeing it would only make more confusion between us. You are right: we can certainly disagree.
     
    pia likes this.
Loading...