Faith, Work, and Spirit--Tong

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Randy Kluth

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Tong:
Yes love is of the spirit, meaning spiritual. It pertains not and belongs not to the physical or material realm. It is a quality therefore that is of the spirit or something that is spiritual and of spiritual nature. Love coming from God has inherent power. Like love, faith is of the spirit ~ spiritual. It is not work. It pertains not and belongs not to the physical or material realm. It is a quality therefore that is of the spirit or something that is spiritual and of spiritual nature. Faith coming from God has inherent power. It is not work.
Well, I beg to differ with your definition of “justify” and so then with atonement and the purpose of atonement.

God is indeed spirit and love, but that does not make Him unable to reveal Himself in the flesh, as a physical man. If so, then both spirit and love are expressed in physical terms.

Tong:
Scriptures gives us a better picture of man and his heart, before the law. You can start with Gen.6. God himself said of man that every intents of the thoughts of the heart of man was continually evil, even from childhood. If there be any man that was not as God said there of man and was said to be righteous, I believe it could only be because of God’s grace and help.

This passage was speaking of a particular period of time, in which the world was despicably wicked and about to be judged by the Flood. It is wrong to characterize all of mankind, every nation, and every person who is not a Christian as being as wicked as those people were before the Flood!

Tong:
Gal.3:22 But Scripture has locked up everything under the control of sin, so that what was promised, being given through faith in Jesus Christ, might be given to those who believe. (NIV)

As to whether man, before the law, were out of control or not, We can go read Gen.6 and Romans 1.


Gal 3.22 has to do with Man's inability to get free of the curse of the Law until Christ had provided atonement for all of mankind. Mankind was locked up under the curse of death, from which there is no other escape than through the atonement of Christ, which had to take place in time. It was only *after* he died on the cross that mankind had the atonement they needed to put their faith in so that they can escape death.

Tong:
Well, that’s it with you then, and not for me. Atonement is not God’s way of forgiving our sin, but holding His wrath upon our wickedness and unrighteousness. God’s forgiving sins is coming from His love, mercy, and grace whom He gives according to His will, purpose, and pleasure. And in these last days, we learned all that and better understand it, when He demonstrated it concerning Jesus Christ.

To say atonement has nothing to do with forgiving sin flies in the face of Scriptures.

Exo 29.36 Sacrifice a bull each day as a sin offering to make atonement.

Tong:
It is not faith that justifies. It is God.

The Scriptures say, "the just shall live by faith." It is faith that renders a man righteous because it is by faith in God's word that a man embraces that word as something to be obeyed.

James 2.20 You foolish person, do you want evidence that faith without deeds is useless? 21 Was not our father Abraham considered righteous for what he did when he offered his son Isaac on the altar? 22 You see that his faith and his actions were working together, and his faith was made complete by what he did.
 

Randy Kluth

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Yes, of course, context pins down what a word means. But, context does not take away the basic concept in a word. Whether works is bad or good, is determined by the qualifier or the context, but it does not take away the basic concept of what work is.
Nonetheless, my point remains, Adam did not sin under duress nor did Eve.
If you consider Eve’s sin and Adam’s sin, then all sin resulting from temptations outside of self would be under duress. And I don’t think that is correct, for Eve was not forced at all to eat of the tree. She was deceived. Adam was not forced either nor was deceived, but ate freely. A sin done in duress is one committed because he is forced to do the sinful act, usually in consideration of facing death or the safety of a loved one, or incurring a great lost.
Sorry, but I was asking for scriptures which shows what you said, that Jesus said men can reject him without rejecting the gift of the Holy Spirit.
That is scriptures about the sin of blasphemy against the Holy Spirit.
So, at least now you come to agree that rejection of Jesus and blasphemy against the Holy Spirit, are not the same.
So, my statement below which you objected to, then remains to be not refuted and holds.
“If one rejects Jesus, he rejects the gift of the Holy Spirit, for God gives the gift of the Holy Spirit to dwell in those who believes in Jesus Christ.”
Tong
R1897

In my view, all human sin is done under duress. For that reason, all men are given an opportunity to repent for their sins. I have no idea why you thought I had said blasphemy of the Spirit was the same as blasphemy of Jesus. My whole argument was the opposite of that. They can be aligned--rejection of Jesus can be blasphemy of the Spirit. But not every time someone rejects Jesus are they committing blasphemy of the Spirit.

Perhaps, but the question is not what faith in creation is according to you, but how and why you believed that God created the heavens and the earth.

Was the thief’s faith genuine or not? That is the question. Was there work involved in his faith? I see none. If none, does it mean his faith was not genuine? Not necessarily so, isn’t it?

Now, what faith is, is different from the act of believing. The act of believing, I could take as work. However, That does not make faith to be work.

In the passage “this is the work of God”, yes to believe in Jesus is something that we do, and in that sense a work we do. But that work is not what faith is, but is a work that comes from and a product of faith. Without faith from and given by God to the man, one cannot do that work. And that was even evident in the context. That work is one that God enables them to do, and is not some work that they do by their own ability. God enables them to do that work by giving them faith. So faith, even with that is not work and work is not faith. At least that is my view of what faith is and what work is.

Of course we should obey God. But obeying or not is not the issue we are discussing, but about faith, if genuine or not.

As I said, our obedience, our doing good works, shows proof of our having faith and demonstrates what faith we have. But that really is not because God needs proof, for He is omniscient. Obviously, such are not for God’s sake but for us and others. Proving it to ourselves and to others, is not a matter of getting us saved or not.

Tong
R1898

I was not just talking about the genuineness of faith, but also about the fact Jesus said faith was a "work." You seem to ignore that, or not deal with that?

I distinguish between a certain kind of faith and another kind of faith--not just whether one is genuine or not. One kind of faith simply accepts reality, whereas another kind of faith makes God the object of its affection and the source of its guidance.

When we have faith in God's word, we are choosing to obey that word. That is faith that saves. Many genuinely believe in God, but do not have faith that saves because they do not believe in God's word, which requires our obedience. And the obedience that God requires is that we defer to His ways in place of our own independent ways.
 

Keraz

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Multitudes of people throughout the world await the Glorious Return of Jesus to reign as King of the world. Many others doubt this and would like to eliminate the possibility, because they do not want to face the consequences.

Belief in the reality of Christ’s Return and His Kingdom, as against disbelief, means that there are two major categories of people in the world:- Those referred to in Scripture as “the people of God”, 1 Peter 2:10 and those who do not belong to Him – John 8:47.

For His people still living at the Return, who can be from every race, nation and language, there will be rejoicing, praise, worship, and unending happiness. For those who have refused the salvation offered, it will be an opposite kind of destiny or just annihilation, but for both: the consequences will be eternal.

The distinction between the two groups is not based on education, race, wealth, culture, or religious affiliation. It is based on our relationship with God. We are all in one category or the other. The Bible calls unrepentant sinners “evildoers”. It calls forgiven sinners, “saints”.

Romans 2:9-11 There will be trouble and distress for every human who does evil, first for the Israelite, then for the Gentile. But for everyone who does what is right, there will be glory, honor and peace. God has no favorites.


We who are followers of Jesus Christ are to keep faithful, praying, proclaiming the Gospel, manifesting His love and mercy, living for Him and doing His will – until He comes.

An attitude of faithful consistency in serving and obeying our Lord, is different from the escapist attitude of some who talk so much about the prospect of being raptured out of this wicked world at any moment.

The prophetic truth: “we shall be caught up in the air to meet Him,” as He Returns to earth, should not obscure the importance of being prepared for the trials and tribulations to come before His Millennial reign.


James 5:7-11 You must be patient, my friends, until the Lord comes. Consider the farmer, looking for a good crop, waiting patiently for the rains to fall. You, too, must be patient and strong, for the coming of the Lord is near. My friends, do not blame your troubles on one another, or you will be judged and there at the door stands the Judge. As your example of patience, look at the prophets, who stood firm under ill treatment. See how Job stood firm and how God blessed him in the end, for the Lord is merciful and compassionate. Those who keep their faith will be happy and blessed.

1 Peter 1:5 Because you have put your faith in God, you are under the protection of His power, until the salvation now in readiness is revealed at the end of this age.

Philippians 1:9-11 And this is my prayer: that your love may grow ever richer in knowledge and insight of every kind, enabling you to learn by experience what things really matter. Then on the Day of Christ, [His Return] you will be flawless and without blame, yielding the full harvest of righteousness that comes through Jesus Christ, to the glory and praise of God. John 3:16-21
Ref: REB. Some verses abridged.
 
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Tong2020

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Tong:
Yes love is of the spirit, meaning spiritual. It pertains not and belongs not to the physical or material realm. It is a quality therefore that is of the spirit or something that is spiritual and of spiritual nature. Love coming from God has inherent power. Like love, faith is of the spirit ~ spiritual. It is not work. It pertains not and belongs not to the physical or material realm. It is a quality therefore that is of the spirit or something that is spiritual and of spiritual nature. Faith coming from God has inherent power. It is not work.
Well, I beg to differ with your definition of “justify” and so then with atonement and the purpose of atonement.

God is indeed spirit and love, but that does not make Him unable to reveal Himself in the flesh, as a physical man. If so, then both spirit and love are expressed in physical terms.
That’s right, love, which is of the spirit and is spiritual, may be EXPRESSED in physical terms. The expression or demonstration in the physical however, is not what love is per se, but only an expression of it.

Tong:
Scriptures gives us a better picture of man and his heart, before the law. You can start with Gen.6. God himself said of man that every intents of the thoughts of the heart of man was continually evil, even from childhood. If there be any man that was not as God said there of man and was said to be righteous, I believe it could only be because of God’s grace and help.

This passage was speaking of a particular period of time, in which the world was despicably wicked and about to be judged by the Flood. It is wrong to characterize all of mankind, every nation, and every person who is not a Christian as being as wicked as those people were before the Flood!
While the passage refers to the generation of Noah, God’s characterization there isn’t of the generation but of mankind. God told us of the heart of man. God told of that before the flood and told of that again after the flood. Paul also told us about man in Romans 1.

Tong:
Gal.3:22 But Scripture has locked up everything under the control of sin, so that what was promised, being given through faith in Jesus Christ, might be given to those who believe. (NIV)

As to whether man, before the law, were out of control or not, We can go read Gen.6 and Romans 1.


Gal 3.22 has to do with Man's inability to get free of the curse of the Law until Christ had provided atonement for all of mankind. Mankind was locked up under the curse of death, from which there is no other escape than through the atonement of Christ, which had to take place in time. It was only *after* he died on the cross that mankind had the atonement they needed to put their faith in so that they can escape death.
Not really the curse of the law, but from slavery to sin.

Tong:
Well, that’s it with you then, and not for me. Atonement is not God’s way of forgiving our sin, but holding His wrath upon our wickedness and unrighteousness. God’s forgiving sins is coming from His love, mercy, and grace whom He gives according to His will, purpose, and pleasure. And in these last days, we learned all that and better understand it, when He demonstrated it concerning Jesus Christ.

To say atonement has nothing to do with forgiving sin flies in the face of Scriptures.

Exo 29.36 Sacrifice a bull each day as a sin offering to make atonement.
I did not say that atonement has nothing to do with forgiving of sin. Rather, that atonement for sin and forgiveness of sin are not the same thing.

Tong:
It is not faith that justifies. It is God.

The Scriptures say, "the just shall live by faith." It is faith that renders a man righteous because it is by faith in God's word that a man embraces that word as something to be obeyed.

James 2.20 You foolish person, do you want evidence that faith without deeds is useless? 21 Was not our father Abraham considered righteous for what he did when he offered his son Isaac on the altar? 22 You see that his faith and his actions were working together, and his faith was made complete by what he did.

Yes, but it does not take away that it is not faith that justifies, but God.

Tong
R1933
 

Randy Kluth

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That’s right, love, which is of the spirit and is spiritual, may be EXPRESSED in physical terms. The expression or demonstration in the physical however, is not what love is per se, but only an expression of it.

You're saying love is expressed in physical terms, but the physical terms in which love is expressed is not love? That's like saying A expressed itself as B, but B is not A. No sense debating this anymore with you!

While the passage refers to the generation of Noah, God’s characterization there isn’t of the generation but of mankind. God told us of the heart of man. God told of that before the flood and told of that again after the flood. Paul also told us about man in Romans

If Noah's generation is characterized as "wicked," and if Lot's generation in Sodom is characterized as "wicked," this is merely the same as the Genesis record indicates, that the generation of the Flood and the populace of Sodom were wicked. It does not say that all generations of mankind in all times were desperately wicked and worthy of destruction. Rather, what it says is that "man," as a species, is sinful and capable of producing such generations--not that he always does so.

For example, when the wicked, pagan city of Ninevah repented at the preaching of Jonah, God stopped seeing the city as worthy of destruction, but as obviously repentant and worth saving. Your theory therefore fails.

Not really the curse of the law, but from slavery to sin.

The curse of the Law was condemnation to death. Jesus' death and resurrection was an atonement for sin that lifted the curse of death through a future resurrection of the repentant. The slavery to sin was a necessary obligation to die, as a result of the curse of the Law, without any hope of resurrection apart from the atonement of Christ.

I did not say that atonement has nothing to do with forgiving of sin. Rather, that atonement for sin and forgiveness of sin are not the same thing.

You said, "Atonement is not God’s way of forgiving our sin." That is a false statement. Atonement is, in fact, God's way of forgiving sin.

Yes, but it does not take away that it is not faith that justifies, but God.

Tong
R1933

That is false. The fact God is involved does not take away the fact that faith justifies when the believer places his faith in God's word by choosing to believe it and to therefore obey it.
 

Timtofly

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You're saying love is expressed in physical terms, but the physical terms in which love is expressed is not love? That's like saying A expressed itself as B, but B is not A. No sense debating this anymore with you!



If Noah's generation is characterized as "wicked," and if Lot's generation in Sodom is characterized as "wicked," this is merely the same as the Genesis record indicates, that the generation of the Flood and the populace of Sodom were wicked. It does not say that all generations of mankind in all times were desperately wicked and worthy of destruction. Rather, what it says is that "man," as a species, is sinful and capable of producing such generations--not that he always does so.

For example, when the wicked, pagan city of Ninevah repented at the preaching of Jonah, God stopped seeing the city as worthy of destruction, but as obviously repentant and worth saving. Your theory therefore fails.



The curse of the Law was condemnation to death. Jesus' death and resurrection was an atonement for sin that lifted the curse of death through a future resurrection of the repentant. The slavery to sin was a necessary obligation to die, as a result of the curse of the Law, without any hope of resurrection apart from the atonement of Christ.



You said, "Atonement is not God’s way of forgiving our sin." That is a false statement. Atonement is, in fact, God's way of forgiving sin.



That is false. The fact God is involved does not take away the fact that faith justifies when the believer places his faith in God's word by choosing to believe it and to therefore obey it.
You are a universalist if Atonement forgives all sin. So I think you are missing the point. Sin is forgiven when we repent. Atonement covered all sin not just the sin we repent of. God does not forgive all sin, because many still die unrepentant and die in their sin.

God does not forgive all sin. If He did, no one would die and spend eternity in the Lake of Fire. God does forgive the sin we repent of doing. God does not force us to repent, just like God does not force all to spend forever in the New Jerusalem. God did Atone by His blood all the sin of the last 6000 years, before Creation. That does not mean all are under the blood. Only those who accept are covered.
 

Randy Kluth

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You are a universalist if Atonement forgives all sin. So I think you are missing the point. Sin is forgiven when we repent. Atonement covered all sin not just the sin we repent of. God does not forgive all sin, because many still die unrepentant and die in their sin.

God does not forgive all sin. If He did, no one would die and spend eternity in the Lake of Fire. God does forgive the sin we repent of doing. God does not force us to repent, just like God does not force all to spend forever in the New Jerusalem. God did Atone by His blood all the sin of the last 6000 years, before Creation. That does not mean all are under the blood. Only those who accept are covered.

I'm not a Universalist. Christ provided an atonement that covers all sin and brings forgiveness *only* to those who repent. We agree on that.
 

Tong2020

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Tong2020 said:
Yes, of course, context pins down what a word means. But, context does not take away the basic concept in a word. Whether works is bad or good, is determined by the qualifier or the context, but it does not take away the basic concept of what work is.
Nonetheless, my point remains, Adam did not sin under duress nor did Eve.
If you consider Eve’s sin and Adam’s sin, then all sin resulting from temptations outside of self would be under duress. And I don’t think that is correct, for Eve was not forced at all to eat of the tree. She was deceived. Adam was not forced either nor was deceived, but ate freely. A sin done in duress is one committed because he is forced to do the sinful act, usually in consideration of facing death or the safety of a loved one, or incurring a great lost.
Sorry, but I was asking for scriptures which shows what you said, that Jesus said men can reject him without rejecting the gift of the Holy Spirit.
That is scriptures about the sin of blasphemy against the Holy Spirit.
So, at least now you come to agree that rejection of Jesus and blasphemy against the Holy Spirit, are not the same.
So, my statement below which you objected to, then remains to be not refuted and holds.
“If one rejects Jesus, he rejects the gift of the Holy Spirit, for God gives the gift of the Holy Spirit to dwell in those who believes in Jesus Christ.”
In my view, all human sin is done under duress. For that reason, all men are given an opportunity to repent for their sins.
With that view, then there would not be any sin that is not done under duress which then would make no man guilty of intentional sin.

I have no idea why you thought I had said blasphemy of the Spirit was the same as blasphemy of Jesus. My whole argument was the opposite of that. They can be aligned--rejection of Jesus can be blasphemy of the Spirit. But not every time someone rejects Jesus are they committing blasphemy of the Spirit.
Forget it then. The important thing is that you acknowledge and recognize the difference between the two.

I was not just talking about the genuineness of faith, but also about the fact Jesus said faith was a "work." You seem to ignore that, or not deal with that?

I already dealt with that.

I distinguish between a certain kind of faith and another kind of faith--not just whether one is genuine or not. One kind of faith simply accepts reality, whereas another kind of faith makes God the object of its affection and the source of its guidance.

When we have faith in God's word, we are choosing to obey that word. That is faith that saves. Many genuinely believe in God, but do not have faith that saves because they do not believe in God's word, which requires our obedience. And the obedience that God requires is that we defer to His ways in place of our own independent ways.

<<<One kind of faith simply accepts reality...>>>

?

<<<Many genuinely believe in God, but do not have faith that saves because they do not believe in God's word, which requires our obedience.>>>

Of one genuinely believe in God, he believes in His word.

Tong
R1934
 

Tong2020

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Tong2020 said:
That’s right, love, which is of the spirit and is spiritual, may be EXPRESSED in physical terms. The expression or demonstration in the physical however, is not what love is per se, but only an expression of it.
You're saying love is expressed in physical terms, but the physical terms in which love is expressed is not love? That's like saying A expressed itself as B, but B is not A. No sense debating this anymore with you!
I think so too since we apparently have different appreciation of the things of the spirit of God such as love.

Tong2020 said:
While the passage refers to the generation of Noah, God’s characterization there isn’t of the generation but of mankind. God told us of the heart of man. God told of that before the flood and told of that again after the flood. Paul also told us about man in Romans
If Noah's generation is characterized as "wicked," and if Lot's generation in Sodom is characterized as "wicked," this is merely the same as the Genesis record indicates, that the generation of the Flood and the populace of Sodom were wicked. It does not say that all generations of mankind in all times were desperately wicked and worthy of destruction. Rather, what it says is that "man," as a species, is sinful and capable of producing such generations--not that he always does so.

For example, when the wicked, pagan city of Ninevah repented at the preaching of Jonah, God stopped seeing the city as worthy of destruction, but as obviously repentant and worth saving. Your theory therefore fails.
Let me quote the relevant scriptures.

Genesis 6:5Then the Lord saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every intent of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually. 6And the Lord was sorry that He had made man on the earth, and He was grieved in His heart.

That was before the flood. Does that sound to referring only to Noah’s generation? Not for me.

Genesis 8:21And the Lord smelled a soothing aroma. Then the Lord said in His heart, “I will never again curse the ground for man’s sake, although the imagination of man’s heart isevil from his youth; nor will I again destroy every living thing as I have done.

That was after the flood, when all were destroyed except 8 people, Noah and his family. Does that sound referring only to Noah’s generation? Not for me.

Tong2020 said:
I did not say that atonement has nothing to do with forgiving of sin. Rather, that atonement for sin and forgiveness of sin are not the same thing.
You said, "Atonement is not God’s way of forgiving our sin." That is a false statement. Atonement is, in fact, God's way of forgiving sin.
It’s not a false statement if you see the difference between atonement and forgiveness.

Tong2020 said:
Yes, but it does not take away that it is not faith that justifies, but God.
That is false. The fact God is involved does not take away the fact that faith justifies when the believer places his faith in God's word by choosing to believe it and to therefore obey it.
Again not false. It is God who declares a man righteous in His sight. It is God who justifies.

Tong
R1935
 

Tong2020

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I'm not a Universalist. Christ provided an atonement that covers all sin and brings forgiveness *only* to those who repent. We agree on that.
I can see here that you can tell the difference between atonement and forgiveness.

Tong
R1936
 

Randy Kluth

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With that view, then there would not be any sin that is not done under duress which then would make no man guilty of intentional sin.

Not at all true. Many years ago a daughter of a very rich man, Patricia Hearst, was kidnapped and manipulated into joining in the kidnappers' lawless cause. She was recognized as guilty of crimes, and yet guilty of crimes committed under duress.

ForHisglory;n2735086 said:
Forget it then. The important thing is that you acknowledge and recognize the difference between the two.

The important thing for me is that you don't misrepresent what I'm saying.

ForHisglory;n2735086 said:
I already dealt with that.

No, my whole point, from the start, was that faith is a work and that faith involves repenting as a work. This speaks of "works of faith," which are different from the "works" that Paul spoke of, in abbreviated fashion, referring to doing good works apart from the word of God in the person's conscience. The Jews, in their unbelief, obeyed the Law apart from listening to God's word in their conscience, and thought, falsely, that they were producing eternal virtue. Without participating in the virtue of Christ, one cannot be saved.

ForHisglory;n2735086 said:
<<<One kind of faith simply accepts reality...>>>
?

A person may have faith that *sincerely* believes in God. His faith is *genuine,* but it does not necessarily save.

ForHisglory;n2735086 said:
<<<Many genuinely believe in God, but do not have faith that saves because they do not believe in God's word, which requires our obedience.>>>

Of one genuinely believe in God, he believes in His word.

Tong
R1934

Not true. Many genuinely believe in God, but reject His word to their conscience. They believe He exists, genuinely, just as the devils do, as well.
 

Randy Kluth

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I can see here that you can tell the difference between atonement and forgiveness.

Tong
R1936

They are 2 different words that are intimately connected. Forgiveness of sin is what atonement is all about.
 

Randy Kluth

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I think so too since we apparently have different appreciation of the things of the spirit of God such as love.

Love comes only by abiding in God's love. We cannot manufacture "love" on our own. It is spiritual, but it is meant to be lived out in the flesh. By that I mean that just as divine love was incarnated in the man Christ, so also love is meant to be demonstrated in our human compassion and in our deeds of kindness.

Let me quote the relevant scriptures.

Genesis 6:5Then the Lord saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every intent of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually. 6And the Lord was sorry that He had made man on the earth, and He was grieved in His heart.

That was before the flood. Does that sound to referring only to Noah’s generation? Not for me.

That is exactly what it was saying. It wasn't saying that Man universally is desperately wicked and in imminent danger of being destroyed! God found good in some, and the Scriptures say so. This disproves your false theory, that Genesis was saying all of mankind is always evil because the generation before the Flood was evil.

Don't you realize that nations rise and fall, that they can improve or worsen? Don't you realize that it takes time for sin to permeate a society, corrupting it, until it is wicked through and through? That means that not all of humanity is always bad.

Your statement, that the characterization of Noah's time necessarily relates to all times, is false. If it was true, God would've followed through and destroyed the whole human race in the time of the Flood.

Actually, He would've ended the human race after the Fall of Adam and Eve. But God had faith in human recovery, in the nation Israel, and in some among all nations. God's plans will not fail ever.
 

Tong2020

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Tong2020 said:
With that view, then there would not be any sin that is not done under duress which then would make no man guilty of intentional sin.
Not at all true. Many years ago a daughter of a very rich man, Patricia Hearst, was kidnapped and manipulated into joining in the kidnappers' lawless cause. She was recognized as guilty of crimes, and yet guilty of crimes committed under duress.
My point is, with your view that all human sin is done under duress is false.

Tong2020 said:
Forget it then. The important thing is that you acknowledge and recognize the difference between the two.
The important thing for me is that you don't misrepresent what I'm saying.
Misrepresent? How have I?

Here’s what you said: “But not every time someone rejects Jesus are they committing blasphemy of the Spirit.”

That was were my comment was coming from that you recognize the difference between the two.

No, my whole point, from the start, was that faith is a work and that faith involves repenting as a work. This speaks of "works of faith," which are different from the "works" that Paul spoke of, in abbreviated fashion, referring to doing good works apart from the word of God in the person's conscience. The Jews, in their unbelief, obeyed the Law apart from listening to God's word in their conscience, and thought, falsely, that they were producing eternal virtue. Without participating in the virtue of Christ, one cannot be saved.
Randy, for you, faith is work, but not for me. As I said, I view faith in the same way I view love, which are of the spirit and are spiritual. In fact, I take faith spoken of in scriptures as that which comes from God and given by God.

John 6:28 Then they said to Him, “What shall we do, that we may work the works of God?”

29 Jesus answered and said to them, “This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He sent.”


We apparently have a different understanding of the passage above. That “you believe in Him whom He sent”, whose work is it?

I also said, and which we differ, what faith is, and which I was trying to tell you, is different from the act of believing, in the same way that what love is is different from the act of loving. That faith is not work in the same way that love is not work. While faith is made visible through works, as love is, that does not make faith nor love as works.

Tong2020 said:
<<<One kind of faith simply accepts reality...>>>
?
A person may have faith that *sincerely* believes in God. His faith is *genuine,* but it does not necessarily save.
Sincerely believe? How’d you know? Can you give an example concerning that?

Tong2020 said:
<<<Many genuinely believe in God, but do not have faith that saves because they do not believe in God's word, which requires our obedience.>>>

If one genuinely believe in God, he believes in His word.
Not true. Many genuinely believe in God, but reject His word to their conscience. They believe He exists, genuinely, just as the devils do, as well.
Who are they you refer to who genuinely believe in God today?

Tong
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Tong2020

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Tong2020 said:
I can see here that you can tell the difference between atonement and forgiveness.
They are 2 different words that are intimately connected. Forgiveness of sin is what atonement is all about.

Yes they may be intimately connected, but nevertheless, not the same thing.

Atonement is all about appeasement. Forgiveness, that is, being forgiven of sin, is all about repentance unto God and God’s mercy.

Tong
R1938
 

Tong2020

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Tong2020 said:
I think so too since we apparently have different appreciation of the things of the spirit of God such as love.
Love comes only by abiding in God's love. We cannot manufacture "love" on our own. It is spiritual, but it is meant to be lived out in the flesh. By that I mean that just as divine love was incarnated in the man Christ, so also love is meant to be demonstrated in our human compassion and in our deeds of kindness.
Yes, as I have been pointing out, love as faith is, is of the spirit and is spiritual. So that, it is not visible to us. But it does not mean that because we can’t see it, that it does not exist or one does have it. It can be shown through “works of love” as faith can be shown through “works of faith”. By that we may see what faith and what love is in the man, whether such were that coming from God or only coming from oneself.

And of course, if God gives such gifts to the man, it was for the man to put to good service.

Tong2020 said:
Let me quote the relevant scriptures.

Genesis 6:5Then the Lord saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every intent of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually. 6And the Lord was sorry that He had made man on the earth, and He was grieved in His heart.
That is exactly what it was saying. It wasn't saying that Man universally is desperately wicked and in imminent danger of being destroyed! God found good in some, and the Scriptures say so. This disproves your false theory, that Genesis was saying all of mankind is always evil because the generation before the Flood was evil.

Don't you realize that nations rise and fall, that they can improve or worsen? Don't you realize that it takes time for sin to permeate a society, corrupting it, until it is wicked through and through? That means that not all of humanity is always bad.

Your statement, that the characterization of Noah's time necessarily relates to all times, is false. If it was true, God would've followed through and destroyed the whole human race in the time of the Flood.

Actually, He would've ended the human race after the Fall of Adam and Eve. But God had faith in human recovery, in the nation Israel, and in some among all nations. God's plans will not fail ever.

<<<That is exactly what it was saying. It wasn't saying that Man universally is desperately wicked and in imminent danger of being destroyed! God found good in some, and the Scriptures say so. This disproves your false theory, that Genesis was saying all of mankind is always evil because the generation before the Flood was evil.>>>

While scriptures speaks of Noah as righteous compared to the rest of mankind in his generation, he is not without sin and deserves destruction as well. Not really that God found good in them, but that God willed to have mercy to Noah, together with 7 others of his family. He had given them 8 grace, but not to the perhaps millions of others, young and old alike. He killed and destroyed them all.

And that God revealed of all fallen mankind that every intents of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually is not a theory of mine, for that is what can be read out in scriptures.

You seem to try to explain that away by limiting what God said there about man, to only the generation of Noah, before the flood. I have cited a passage which have God saying of mankind the same thing after the flood, which you seem to have ignored ~ Gen.8:21.

<<<Don't you realize that nations rise and fall, that they can improve or worsen? Don't you realize that it takes time for sin to permeate a society, corrupting it, until it is wicked through and through? That means that not all of humanity is always bad.>>>

Don’t you realize the power of sin over the man?

And don’t you realize what it means that only 8 escaped destruction in Noah’s time, and that, only because God spared them? Don’t you realize that among those destroyed, were included, infants, young, old, orphans, widows, crippled, blind, poor, mentally impaired? Hope you realize what that means and see the point there.

<<<Your statement, that the characterization of Noah's time necessarily relates to all times, is false. If it was true, God would've followed through and destroyed the whole human race in the time of the Flood.>>>

Not that God saved 8, meant that what God said of mankind there in Genesis 6:5 was not true. It is. Why God saved 8 and not destroyed the whole human race, one could learn in scriptures why.

<<<Actually, He would've ended the human race after the Fall of Adam and Eve. >>>

He could, but He would not, and have not.

<<<But God had faith in human recovery, in the nation Israel, and in some among all nations. God's plans will not fail ever.>>>

It is not as though God needs faith nor have faith in any of his creation. If ever God have faith, it is in Himself, which is well pictured in His triune nature.

Tong
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Randy Kluth

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Yes, as I have been pointing out, love as faith is, is of the spirit and is spiritual. So that, it is not visible to us. But it does not mean that because we can’t see it, that it does not exist or one does have it. It can be shown through “works of love” as faith can be shown through “works of faith”. By that we may see what faith and what love is in the man, whether such were that coming from God or only coming from oneself.

I'm not denying that God Himself is a spirit, and that His love is spiritual. I'm denying that it is *only* spiritual--it must assume a physical appearance if indeed it is displayed in the works of Man. The spiritual aspect of love cannot be separated from the visual acts that express that spiritual love. And so, "love" is both spiritual and physical. Creating a Gnostic-type of dichotomy between spiritual love and non-spiritual appearances is not biblical. That is corrupt Greek philosophy.

While scriptures speaks of Noah as righteous compared to the rest of mankind in his generation, he is not without sin and deserves destruction as well. Not really that God found good in them, but that God willed to have mercy to Noah, together with 7 others of his family. He had given them 8 grace, but not to the perhaps millions of others, young and old alike. He killed and destroyed them all.

I'm not denying that the Flood took place, nor that it took place because Noah's generation was despicably wicked. I'm denying, rather, that this was meant to indicate that all generations and all peoples are despicably wicked. What is meant to be applied in a local situation you are wrongly applying universally!

And I understand why you do this. You do it because Paul uses this kind of thing as proof that men are never good enough to be saved on their own, apart from Christ's atonement. But proving that mankind is not good enough for autonomous salvation and saying that all of mankind are despicably wicked are two separate things!

And that God revealed of all fallen mankind that every intents of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually is not a theory of mine, for that is what can be read out in scriptures.

You seem to try to explain that away by limiting what God said there about man, to only the generation of Noah, before the flood. I have cited a passage which have God saying of mankind the same thing after the flood, which you seem to have ignored ~ Gen.8:21.

Gen 8.21 does not prove that all generations are despicably wicked--only that Man, universally, has sin, which is shown when entire civilizations engage in it, and get worse. Not all get worse, of course. But the fact sin spreads and leads to grosser sin is evidence that sin requires a remedy. And this comes through an atonement, as well as through repentance.

In other words, if sin spreads through an entire civilization, it indicates that all men are plagued by a vulnerability to it. And it is this vulnerability that makes sin inevitable, if only in more moderate ways. Any sin at all is enough to prevent Man from obtaining eternal fellowship with God.
 

Randy Kluth

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Yes they may be intimately connected, but nevertheless, not the same thing.

Atonement is all about appeasement. Forgiveness, that is, being forgiven of sin, is all about repentance unto God and God’s mercy.

Tong
R1938

I don't care how many times you repeat this. Atonement, the Bible says, was all about providing forgiveness of sin. You just ignore the verse I gave you.
 

Randy Kluth

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My point is, with your view that all human sin is done under duress is false.

On the contrary, the fact Satan tempts mankind, universally, is proof positive that sin in mankind is committed under duress.

Randy, for you, faith is work, but not for me.

Tong, I quoted you a passage that indicates *Jesus* believed faith is a work--not just me. I get my belief from him, as well as from the common sense understanding that "works of faith" require that faith have "works!" ;)

29 Jesus answered and said to them, “This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He sent.”

We apparently have a different understanding of the passage above. That “you believe in Him whom He sent”, whose work is it?

I just believe what it says, Tong. Jesus described the work of God as believing in Jesus. Therefore, to believe in Jesus is a "work." The work is obviously done by the believer. The believer responds to the word of God in his or her conscience. And so, this "work" is derived from the virtue of God, who initially approaches the person with the offer of faith.

I also said, and which we differ, what faith is, and which I was trying to tell you, is different from the act of believing, in the same way that what love is is different from the act of loving.

Quite simply, belief is not different from the act of believing, and love is not different from the act of loving. That's absurd!

That faith is not work in the same way that love is not work. While faith is made visible through works, as love is, that does not make faith nor love as works.

I'm not saying faith taking action makes the action faith. I'm saying that faith and acts of faith are the same. Works don't *make* faith into anything. Faith expresses itself in works.

Sincerely believe? How’d you know? Can you give an example concerning that?

Discernment. If you cannot discern sincere faith, I can't help you.
 

Tong2020

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Tong2020 said:
Yes, as I have been pointing out, love as faith is, is of the spirit and is spiritual. So that, it is not visible to us. But it does not mean that because we can’t see it, that it does not exist or one does have it. It can be shown through “works of love” as faith can be shown through “works of faith”. By that we may see what faith and what love is in the man, whether such were that coming from God or only coming from oneself.
I'm not denying that God Himself is a spirit, and that His love is spiritual. I'm denying that it is *only* spiritual--it must assume a physical appearance if indeed it is displayed in the works of Man. The spiritual aspect of love cannot be separated from the visual acts that express that spiritual love. And so, "love" is both spiritual and physical. Creating a Gnostic-type of dichotomy between spiritual love and non-spiritual appearances is not biblical. That is corrupt Greek philosophy.
Love that I speak about, as I also speak of faith, is that which has its origin from God. It comes forth from God. Nothing physical comes forth from God who is Spirit. Love that comes forth from God, is pure and good, is spirit and spiritual. Even before there ever was anything but God, God is and has love, and exercise and express it without visual acts nor assuming a physical appearance. Further, love that comes forth from God, is not devoid of power, and I would say is power itself. And because it has or is power from God, it is capable of doing or is capable of producing works. Such also is faith that comes forth from God. So that we can read in scriptures, that faith can move mountains. If the Christian remembers that, no Christian would say that what he does from out of the faith given him by God is his work. Nor then can faith be said to be work, more so the work of man.

Tong2020 said:
While scriptures speaks of Noah as righteous compared to the rest of mankind in his generation, he is not without sin and deserves destruction as well. Not really that God found good in them, but that God willed to have mercy to Noah, together with 7 others of his family. He had given them 8 grace, but not to the perhaps millions of others, young and old alike. He killed and destroyed them all.
I'm not denying that the Flood took place, nor that it took place because Noah's generation was despicably wicked. I'm denying, rather, that this was meant to indicate that all generations and all peoples are despicably wicked. What is meant to be applied in a local situation you are wrongly applying universally!

And I understand why you do this. You do it because Paul uses this kind of thing as proof that men are never good enough to be saved on their own, apart from Christ's atonement. But proving that mankind is not good enough for autonomous salvation and saying that all of mankind are despicably wicked are two separate things!
The flood sure was for them in the generation of Noah. But what He said concerning the fallen nature of man in Gen. 6:5 and Gen. 8:21, was not only of the generation of Noah, but of every fallen man, those born of the fallen Adam.

This reminds me of that which makes the point of what Jesus told Nicodemus, concerning the must to be born again, be born not of the will of man nor of the flesh, but of the will of God and of the Spirit. To put that in my own words, is to be born of the second Adam, who is Jesus Christ.

Tong2020 said:
And that God revealed of all fallen mankind that every intents of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually is not a theory of mine, for that is what can be read out in scriptures.

You seem to try to explain that away by limiting what God said there about man, to only the generation of Noah, before the flood. I have cited a passage which have God saying of mankind the same thing after the flood, which you seem to have ignored ~ Gen.8:21.
Gen 8.21 does not prove that all generations are despicably wicked--only that Man, universally, has sin, which is shown when entire civilizations engage in it, and get worse. Not all get worse, of course. But the fact sin spreads and leads to grosser sin is evidence that sin requires a remedy. And this comes through an atonement, as well as through repentance.

In other words, if sin spreads through an entire civilization, it indicates that all men are plagued by a vulnerability to it. And it is this vulnerability that makes sin inevitable, if only in more moderate ways. Any sin at all is enough to prevent Man from obtaining eternal fellowship with God.

Gen.8:21 And the Lord smelled a soothing aroma. Then the Lord said in His heart, “I will never again curse the ground for man’s sake, although the imagination of man’s heart isevil from his youth; nor will I again destroy every living thing as I have done.

God said, and this is after He had killed all and saved only 8, “I will never again curse the ground for man’s sake”. For man’s sake could not be referring to them whom He had killed, right? Then if not, to whom then does God refer to when He said “man’s sake” in Gen. 8:21? No question, it refers to all fallen mankind that would be coming from the 8 persons God saved. And of this mankind, God said “the imagination of man’s heart is evil from his youth”, no different from what is said in Gen.6:5 about man, that is, “every intent of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually.”

So, those scriptures in Gen.6:5 and Gen.8:21 tells us of the heart of fallen mankind, those born of fallen Adam.

Like it or not, that is the nature of fallen mankind according to God, one whose imagination of his heart is evil, even from his youth.

You are right, not all men have the same degree of wickedness, but nonetheless, they are all sinful. Though you should not ignore the fact that God destroyed the generation of Noah, without the scriptures saying why. The reason being was that “
the Lord saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every intent of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually.” And you should not ignore also the fact that, except Noah and seven of his family, God poured out His wrath upon them all including the infants, the little children. The point being is that, both despicably wicked and those who are not, even the little children, God destroyed.

Tong
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