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"Fake News" vs. the Gospel of Jesus Christ…

Discussion in 'Christian Apologetics Forum' started by skypair, Feb 22, 2017.

  1. skypair

    skypair Member

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    I bought a good book recently .. Soteriology Simplified by Dr. Bob Hadley. It has a very good job of disemboweling Calvinism. It begins by pointing out that the central concept of Calvinism is the total sovereignty of God. "Calvin took this theme and made it the foundation upon which all the other themes were to be centered or referenced." Ergo, nothing that man thinks, believes, or does is his own thinking, believing, or doing. To quote out late Pres (somewhat), "You didn't have those thoughts, beliefs, and acts .. God gave them to you." Even the thoughts, beliefs, and acts of Satan are not his own but of God using him as an intermediary to accomplish His will.

    Second, the doctrine of total depravity of man and, therefore regeneration, is the chief cornerstone upon which the Doctrines of Grace stand. Salvation relies not on the death, burial, and resurrection of Jesus Christ nor on personal faith (since it cannot exist if God is totally sovereign) but on God's sovereign regeneration. "If the doctrine of total depravity fails, then the remaining four doctrines of grace fall with it like a house of cards. If Calvinism is correct in its contention that regeneration is the catalyst for repentance and believing faith, then revelation [the gospel] cannot be." Therefore, Ro 1:16 cannot be true "For the gospel is the power of God unto salvation to everyone who believes"

    And it doesn't take a genius to see that if man is totally depraved, then election must be unconditional .. atonement must be limited .. grace has to be irresistible .. and only God can preserve the saint (OSAS).

    I'd say he "nailed it."

    skypair
     
    Born_Again likes this.
  2. Stranger

    Stranger Well-Known Member

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    skypair

    Except 'atonement' is not limited.

    Stranger
     
  3. skypair

    skypair Member

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    4 Pointer, eh? However the author says that all five points either stand together or they all fall.

    skypair
     
  4. OzSpen

    OzSpen Well-Known Member

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    Stranger,

    Are you affirming unlimited atonement? That is, Jesus died for the whole world of all people. Is that what you say you believe?

    Oz
     
  5. Stranger

    Stranger Well-Known Member

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    Yes.

    Stranger
     
  6. OzSpen

    OzSpen Well-Known Member

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    skypair,

    This is why I do not believe he nailed it. Arminians (the Remonstrance and Jacobus Arminius) also believed in total depravity and they were not TULIP Calvinists.

    I have attempted to address some of these issues in my article, Do Arminians believe in election and total depravity?

    The Remonstrance stated this:

    Therefore, to believe in total depravity does not cause the house of Calvinism to fall.

    Oz
     
  7. Wormwood

    Wormwood Well-Known Member Staff Member

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    skypair,

    I think you are making the opposite point that the author you are quoting is making. The author is arguing that Total Depravity is central to the construct of Calvinist thinking and that the other elements are reliant upon Total Depravity as their foundation. This is true. The author is not saying that Total Depravity MANDATES views such as limited atonement. He is saying views such as Limited Atonement are reliant upon Total Depravity. So, as Oz pointed out, a person can believe in Total Depravity without holding to the other points of Calvinism (although I personally do not ascribe to Total Depravity). However, doctrines such as Limited Atonement and Irresistable Grace are essentially reliant upon the assumption that Total Depravity is true. I hope that makes sense.
     
  8. mjrhealth

    mjrhealth Well-Known Member

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    Agree 100%.
     
  9. bbyrd009

    bbyrd009 Groper

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    ya, me too. While this might seem to point to Universalism as we understand it, imo "Who told you that you were naked?" points to the exclusions; God does not condemn us, we separate ourselves from God.