False Doctrine of the "Secret Rapture".

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The Light

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THE RAPTURE IS NOT SECRET.
It is an OFFERING, an INVITATION, FOR the individuals WHO freely elected and Chose to Become MADE “IN” Christ…
….Just as in ANY ancient traditional Jewish Wedding…
Whereby an agreement of marriage is struck.
Whereby the Bride to be readies herself.
Whereby the Grooms servant calls to the Bride to be, it is time to leave HER fathers house and Go to her Grooms father’s house to meet her Groom.
Whereby the Bride THROUGH HER VEIL SEES her Grooms for the FIRST TIME AS HE IS.
Whereby the Bride remains VEILED unto the EYES of her Groom…until the vows of the marriage.
Whereby OTHERS are in attendance as WITNESSES of the vows of marriage.
Whereby ONCE the vows ARE Completed…the Groom Takes His Bride to “HIS HOUSE”…to KEEP Her FOREVER WITH Him.

IT’s NOT a “secret mystery”…
The Facts have ALL been Revealed…
WHO is the Father…
WHERE is the Fathers House…
WHO is the Son…
WHO is the Sons Bride…
WHERE is the Sons House…
WHERE shall the Son and His Bride BE forever.
HOW the Fathers House and the Sons House SHALL become MADE One and the Same.

Glory to God,
Taken
The rapture of the Church will be a SECRET RAPTURE.

Here is the rapture of the dead in Christ in the Old Testament. Jesus is standing behind the wall showing Himself through the Lattice. It is springtime. The dead in Christ rise first: The barley harvest. Jesus is not seen or heard by the world. He shows Himself through the lattice and the voice of the turtle dove is heard in the land.

Song of Solomon
8 The voice of my beloved! behold, he cometh leaping upon the mountains, skipping upon the hills.

9 My beloved is like a roe or a young hart: behold, he standeth behind our wall, he looketh forth at the windows, shewing himself through the lattice.

10 My beloved spake, and said unto me, Rise up, my love, my fair one, and come away.

11 For, lo, the winter is past, the rain is over and gone;

12 The flowers appear on the earth; the time of the singing of birds is come, and the voice of the turtle is heard in our land;

Here is Jesus returning for the alive that remain. This is the wheat harvest and occurs towards summers end. The fig tree puts forth her green figs and the grapes are tender. The fruit has come forth but is not ready to harvest. The Lord is in the secret places and the world will not see Him.


13 The fig tree putteth forth her green figs, and the vines with the tender grape give a good smell. Arise, my love, my fair one, and come away.

14 O my dove, that art in the clefts of the rock, in the secret places of the stairs, let me see thy countenance, let me hear thy voice; for sweet is thy voice, and thy countenance is comely.

The world will not see Jesus until the second coming which occurs at the fruit harvest. Jesus will remain in the clouds and send His angels to gather the elect from heaven and earth at that time. All will return to heaven for the marriage supper. This occurs at the 6th seal and the world is cast into the 1-year wrath of God.
 
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Douggg

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What do you think?
Of course God did. God knows everything. The question was for the sake of them reading Job would realize that Satan did not have access to the third heaven unless summoned there by God.
 

Taken

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The rapture of the Church will be a SECRET RAPTURE.

The KNOWLEDGE of a “RAPTURE”…
IS revealed..
WHAT the “RAPTURE” is …
IS revealed..
WHO, WHY the “RAPTURE” applies to…
IS revealed..
WHEN the “RAPTURE” occurs…
IS revealed..

* The “EXACT” Day / Hour OF:
The RAPTURE……
The WRATH of the LAMB….
The WRATH of the DEVIL….
The WRATH of God…
The DAY of JUDGEMENT…
The WAR of mortal men AGAINST God…
The WAR between holy and fallen Angels…
THE New HEAVEN and EARTH….“IS NOT” Revealed…

* However the Knowledge of those things SHALL come to pass, absolutely IS NOT Secret.

* Every mans Option to BELIEVE those things SHALL come to pass, absolutely IS per a mans own Freewill.

Glory to God,
Taken
 
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Spiritual Israelite

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Satan was summoned to the third heaven by God to appear before God. Satan was not in the third heaven before being summoned, but on earth.
That is completely beside the point. He obviously had access to the third heaven. For him to be cast out means he can't ever go there at all after that. And what is what Revelation 12 is portraying: Satan and his angels being cast out of the third heaven.
 

Spiritual Israelite

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It's really hard to get my point across as I often forget you haven't heard much of what I say before.
Actually, I have, but your beliefs are very complicated involving at least 5 raptures if I recall correctly. You have a doctrine all your own. Not trying to be rude, but it's true and you know that. So, it's not easy to remember what exactly you believe.

1 Thes 4 is about the rapture of the Church.
So is Matthew 24:29-31 (Mark 13:24-27).

The has already happened before the seals are opened. Thats why there are kings and priest in heaven in Rev 5 and 24 elders with crowns. You don't get crowns until Jesus comes.
What is that based on? Do you not know that we are kings and priests right now?

Revelation 1:5 And from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, and the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth. Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood,6 And hath made us kings and priests unto God and his Father; to him be glory and dominion for ever and ever. Amen.

Matthew 24:29-31 (Mark 13:24-27) are about the 12 tribes being raptured at the 6th seal before the wrath of God. They go through the great tribulation. This gathering from heaven and earth can be seen in 1 Corinthians 15

1 Corinthians 15
51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,

52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
This illustrates why it's hard to remember what you believe. You're all over the place. Honestly, I find your view of all these things to be completely ridiculous and baseless.

Most think that 1 Thes 4 and 1 Cor 15 is the same event. It's not.
Yes, it clearly is. How do you come to your conclusions? Are you comfortable believing things that no one else does? Are you somehow special and God has revealed things only to you?

In 1 Thes 4 the dead are raised first. Then the Lord returns for the alive that remained.
The dead are raised when the Lord returns. That happens first and then those who are alive and remain are caught up together with the dead in Christ to meet the Lord in the air.

In 1 Cor 15 the dead and alive are changed at the same time, the twinkling of an eye.
That doesn't contradict anything in 1 Thess 4. Right after the dead are resurrected first, then they, along with those who are alive and remain, will be changed and caught up together to meet the Lord in the air. You are inventing differences between the passages that aren't there.

1 Thes 4 occurs at the trump of God or voice of God and 1 Cor 15 occurs at the last trump which is blown on the Feast of Trumpets.
This is nonsense. It's the same trumpet.

1 Thes 4 will be like the days of Noah where Noah is in the ark 6 days before the flood. Whereas 1 Cor 15 is like the days of Lot where the very day Lot left Sodom destruction came.
I can't read any more of this. It's making me dizzy. Thanks for sharing your view, but I honestly think it's complete nonsense and way more convoluted than how things really will be.
 

The Light

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The KNOWLEDGE of a “RAPTURE”…
IS revealed..
WHAT the “RAPTURE” is …
IS revealed..
WHO, WHY the “RAPTURE” applies to…
IS revealed..
WHEN the “RAPTURE” occurs…
IS revealed..
The fact He is coming in an hour that you think not IS revealed

Therefore be ye also ready: for in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh.

Do you think all this alien abduction nonsense is spread around for no reason? The world will not know when He comes for the Church, so the explanation is the aliens have come. All part of Satan's plan.
 

Spiritual Israelite

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The fact He is coming in an hour that you think not IS revealed

Therefore be ye also ready: for in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh.

Do you think all this alien abduction nonsense is spread around for no reason? The world will not know when He comes for the Church, so the explanation is the aliens have come. All part of Satan's plan.
Do you think the following verse will be fulfilled when the rapture occurs at "an hour that you think not"?

2 Thessalonians 1:10 When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day.
 

Keraz

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Do you think the following verse will be fulfilled when the rapture occurs at "an hour that you think not"?

2 Thessalonians 1:10 When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day.
Reading thru the many and varied posts here, I see much confusion and error.
Firstly; there is no 'rapture to heaven' for anyone at any time. That idea is Satans lie.

2 Thess 1:10 will happen after the Lord sends His fiery wrath, at the Sixth Seal. Confirmed by Revelation 14:1

1 Thess 4:16-17 is a prophecy about the glorious Return of King Jesus.

1 Corinthians 15:50-56, is a prophecy of what will happen at the GWT Judgment; after the Millennium.

All easily proved correct, any other placement or belief to suit a false theory, is wrong.
 

The Light

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Actually, I have, but your beliefs are very complicated involving at least 5 raptures if I recall correctly. You have a doctrine all your own.
There is the rapture of the dead in Christ, then the Lord returns for the alive that remains. That is two, but they are the grain harvest, barley and wheat so it can be called one. Then there is the rapture of the 144,000 that are redeemed from the earth as first fruits of the fruit harvest. Then there is the fruit harvest which is of the 12 tribes as the first fruits are of the twelve tribes and then there are the two witnesses. So we can say that is 5. And all in scripture.

Not trying to be rude, but it's true and you know that. So, it's not easy to remember what exactly you believe.
No sweat. However, the good thing is all you have to do is read EXACTLY what the Word says without making anything up and you will know what I believer. When the Word says there are 144,000 first fruits from the 12 tribes, that's what I believe. Etc. Etc.
So is Matthew 24:29-31 (Mark 13:24-27).


What is that based on? Do you not know that we are kings and priests right now?
Yes, but the elders have crowns. You don't get crowns until Jesus comes and His reward is with Him.

Revelation 1:5 And from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, and the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth. Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood,6 And hath made us kings and priests unto God and his Father; to him be glory and dominion for ever and ever. Amen.
Exactly
This illustrates why it's hard to remember what you believe. You're all over the place. Honestly, I find your view of all these things to be completely ridiculous and baseless.
All based on the Word of God.

The Feasts of God are the pattern of the end times.

Yes, it clearly is. How do you come to your conclusions?
I accept EXACTLY what is written. People make incorrect conclusions that throw them off the path. I start with the things that are known as the fact of the Word of God and work from there.

I know for instance that immediately after the tribulation Jesus returns. Most people think the verse below is talking about Jesus coming at the end of the trumpets, at the end of wrath. If we go by exactly what the word says, we would understand that this event of Jesus coming happens at the 6th seal, before the wrath of God.

Matthew 24
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

Revelation 6
12 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;
13 And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.

Most people think that the tribulation and wrath are the same thing. They are not. Anyone that believes that the coming of Jesus in Matthew 24 happens at the trumpets is off the path and what they believe does not agree with the Word of God.

Are you comfortable believing things that no one else does?
Absolutely. I already know what most know and understand why they are wrong. Not my first rodeo and I believed some of those things myself for a while. For instance, many have the Church going through the wrath of God. That cannot possibly be correct as we are not appointed to wrath.

There are many that are absolutely sure that there is a pretrib rapture. And they have absolute proof. And many believe that the rapture cannot happen until the man of sin is revealed. And they have absolute proof. It never occurs to most that both are correct. As I studied years ago, I was sure the pretribbers were incorrect as the rapture was shown to happen at the 6th seal. This was very puzzling because they had proof that there was a pretrib rapture. I was sure there was a rapture at the 6th seal. So then the question was who was raptured. It wasn't the Church. Those 144,000 first fruits tell you who is raptured at the 6th seal.
Are you somehow special and God has revealed things only to you?
I'll give you the revelation. What the Word says EXACTLY, is what is going to happen. As soon as you start making things up, like the 144,000 is the Church or the 144,000 is all of Israel you are lost and off the path. If you have the Church on earth during the wrath of God you are off the path. You have to accept the written Word. If God says that there are TWO folds, that's what He means. If He says when He comes it will be like the days of Noah. That's what He means. If He says likewise when He comes it will be like the days of Lot, that's what He means.

If you can use scripture to disprove anything I say, I'll be the first to change what I believe.


The dead are raised when the Lord returns. That happens first and then those who are alive and remain are caught up together with the dead in Christ to meet the Lord in the air.
Yeah. I used to think that also. Then I understood the barley and wheat harvest. Then I understood there are elders in heaven with crowns which is proof that Jesus has returned. There are also kings and priests before the throne.

I believe exactly what the Word says. The living will not precede the dead. The dead in Christ will rise first. When God returns He will bring the dead in Christ with Him. The alive remain, just like the Word says. When you put the harvests and feast days together, it all fits perfectly.



That doesn't contradict anything in 1 Thess 4. Right after the dead are resurrected first, then they, along with those who are alive and remain, will be changed and caught up together to meet the Lord in the air. You are inventing differences between the passages that aren't there.
Or am I accepting what is written. In 1 thes 4, the rapture of the mostly Gentile Church. The dead in Christ are changed and rise first. Then after that, the alive that remain are changed. 1n 1 Cor 15 the dead and alive are changed at the same time. There are two folds. The fig tree has two harvests.
This is nonsense. It's the same trumpet.
Ask a Rabbi what the Last Trump is. He certainly won't tell you its the trump of God or voice of God. And it absolutely is not the seventh trumpet of Wrath blown by an angel.

I can't read any more of this. It's making me dizzy. Thanks for sharing your view, but I honestly think it's complete nonsense and way more convoluted than how things really will be.

No worries. However, it is actually complete SENSE. Remember, if you have the Church going through the wrath of God, you cannot be correct as we are not appointed to wrath. Enjoyed talking with you. Give your head a rest. LOL. Me too.
 

Jay Ross

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Of course God did. God knows everything. The question was for the sake of them reading Job would realize that Satan did not have access to the third heaven unless summoned there by God.

Sadly Douggg, that is just your imagined understanding. If you had provided scriptural evidence, then to back up your claim then you would have been believable, but you have not.

When the 72 returned to report to Jesus their experiences while ministering in the villages and town where Jesus had sent them out in pairs,
Jesus said this: -

Luke 10:18: - 18 And He said to them, “I saw Satan fall like lightning from heaven."

Jesus indicated that Satan was in heaven while the 72 were ministering in the villages and town. There was no indication from Jesus that Satan had received permission or an invitation to be in heaven at that time. Jesus simply just stated that He saw Satan in heaven and that there was lightening falling from heaven that emulated from Satan, because of what Satan was observing on the earth at that time.

Also, in Rev 12 we are told that there will be a battle between Satan and his cohorts and God and His angels and that from that time onwards there will no longer be any place in Heaven for Satan and his cohort fallen angels. This continuing raging battle in heaven will end in around 20 years' time when Satan is finally thrown out of heaven down to the face of the earth.

Now what is the scriptural evidence to back up your opinion on this matter.

Goodbye
 

Taken

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The fact He is coming in an hour that you think not IS revealed

Agree, as I have said the same.

Therefore be ye also ready: for in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh.

Agree. The “READINESS” IS revealed IN SCRIPTURE, of HOW, ( according to Gods Offering, Order, Way) and individual CAN CHOOSE to BE MADE “PREPARED”….and the WORKS God performs IN that individual “EXPRESSLY” to “make” that individual Prepared and Ready for “any” hour the Signal (trump) is given by the Lords Servant, IT IS TIME TO GO and BE “raptured”, TAKEN UP, to the Lords Fathers House.

Do you think all this alien abduction nonsense is spread around for no reason?

That is an ODD question, with implication, “alien abduction” was being mentioned, discussed and view-points given”.
Not the case and off point.

The world will not know when He comes for the Church, so the explanation is the aliens have come. All part of Satan's plan.

The Lord descending from Gods Kingdom ie to the Clouds, is NOT the Return of the Son of Man to Earth.

Unexplained “missing persons” for decades has occurred for a multitude of reasons from Kidnappings, murders and body disposal, to Runaways….but I highly doubt “extraterrestrial aliens” are abducting “terrestrial humans.

God Bless you.

Glory to God,
Taken
 

Douggg

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Jesus indicated that Satan was in heaven while the 72 were ministering in the villages and town. There was no indication from Jesus that Satan had received permission or an invitation to be in heaven at that time. Jesus simply just stated that He saw Satan in heaven and that there was lightening falling from heaven that emulated from Satan, because of what Satan was observing on the earth at that time.
Jay, Satan was not in the third heaven at that time. btw, it was 70, not 72.

There are three heavens, relative to earth. The earth's atmosphere, first heaven. The cosmos, the second heaven. Heaven where God's throne is, the third heaven.

Satan fell from the first heaven as lightening, when the 70 cast out the devils. Satan at that time was in the location of Israel. Do you recall that Satan tempted Jesus while Jesus was in the wilderness of Israel ?

Also, in Rev 12 we are told that there will be a battle between Satan and his cohorts and God and His angels and that from that time onwards there will no longer be any place in Heaven for Satan and his cohort fallen angels. This continuing raging battle in heaven will end in around 20 years' time when Satan is finally thrown out of heaven down to the face of the earth.
Revelation 12:7-9 will be a battle between Michael (the powerful good angel that watches over Israel, Daniel 12:1) and his good angels vs Satan (the evil angel) and his evil angels.

The heaven that Satan and his angels will be cast down from is the second heaven, the cosmos. Their home, the second heaven, will be rolled up like a scroll, departed, when the sixth seal event takes place. The stars will appear to fall to the earth, as they disappear on the horizon.

Revelation 6:
13 And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.
14 And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.
 
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Spiritual Israelite

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Reading thru the many and varied posts here, I see much confusion and error.
Firstly; there is no 'rapture to heaven' for anyone at any time. That idea is Satans lie.
Where did I say anything about a "rapture to heaven". I didn't. I've told you several times before that I don't believe in that. So, why are you saying this to me?

I was asking that question about 2 Thessalonians 1:10 for a reason and was planning to follow up on it based on the response I get.
 

Spiritual Israelite

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There is the rapture of the dead in Christ, then the Lord returns for the alive that remains. That is two, but they are the grain harvest, barley and wheat so it can be called one. Then there is the rapture of the 144,000 that are redeemed from the earth as first fruits of the fruit harvest. Then there is the fruit harvest which is of the 12 tribes as the first fruits are of the twelve tribes and then there are the two witnesses. So we can say that is 5. And all in scripture.
Nope. Not all in scripture. All in your imagination, in my opinion. Which is why no one agrees with you. God does not reveal truth to just one person. I'm always amazed to see people here with doctrines all to themselves somehow thinking that God only wanted to reveal the truth of certain things to them alone. It makes no sense.

No sweat. However, the good thing is all you have to do is read EXACTLY what the Word says without making anything up and you will know what I believer. When the Word says there are 144,000 first fruits from the 12 tribes, that's what I believe. Etc. Etc.
Of course, this is not entirely true. You don't believe in a literal, seven-headed, ten-horned beast, for example. And you don't take Jesus's parables as real stories and so on. So, even you don't take everything in the Word literally. I wonder why you think that is the best approach, though. Especially when Paul said it requires spiritual discernment from the Holy Spirit to understand what he and the authors of scripture taught (1 Corinthians 2:9-16). If everything (or almost everything) was as literal as you think, there would be no need for spiritual discernment.

The Feasts of God are the pattern of the end times.
So, you think. I don't see anything in scripture claiming that.

I accept EXACTLY what is written.
So do I. But, of course, what you mean by that is that you interpret what is written as literally as possible. Which, again, would require no spiritual discernment despite Paul saying that spiritually discernment is required to understand the deeper things that he taught (1 Cor 2:9-16), which are the kind of things we discuss on this forum.

People make incorrect conclusions that throw them off the path. I start with the things that are known as the fact of the Word of God and work from there.
People make incorrect conclusions that throw them off the path. I start with the things that are known as the fact of the Word of God and work from there.
That's what I do as well. For example, when it comes to determining how many resurrection events there will beJ, I start with straightforward scriptures like this:

John 5:28 “Do not be amazed at this, for a time is coming when all who are in their graves will hear his voice 29 and come out—those who have done what is good will rise to live, and those who have done what is evil will rise to be condemned.

So, taking this as written, I see that Jesus said that all of the dead will be raised at a future time that is coming. And that includes both the saved and the lost because He references both there. So, I take this fact of the Word of God and make sure any other scripture I read about resurrections doesn't contradict what Jesus clearly taught here.


I know for instance that immediately after the tribulation Jesus returns. Most people think the verse below is talking about Jesus coming at the end of the trumpets, at the end of wrath. If we go by exactly what the word says, we would understand that this event of Jesus coming happens at the 6th seal, before the wrath of God.

Matthew 24
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

Revelation 6
12 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;
13 And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.

Most people think that the tribulation and wrath are the same thing. They are not. Anyone that believes that the coming of Jesus in Matthew 24 happens at the trumpets is off the path and what they believe does not agree with the Word of God.
You may be surprised by this, but I actually agree with you here on some of this. But, I think you missed something significant from the Revelation 6 passage. Why did you stop at verse 13? Maybe just to show the similarities to Matthew 24:29? That's fine. But, keep reading.

Revelation 6:12 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood; 13 And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind. 14 And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places. 15 And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains; 16 And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb: 17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?

While God's wrath may not come immediately upon the opening of the sixth seal, it does say "the great day of his wrath is come". So, clearly, His wrath is about to come down on all of them who are saying "hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb"? This strongly gives the impression that His wrath is at hand at that point. And the reference to "the great day of his wrath" suggests that this is when His final wrath comes down when the Lord Jesus Christ returns. That wrath is described in passages like Matthew 24:37-39, 2 Thessalonians 1:7-9 and 2 Peter 3:10-12. And it is described as coming down on the day Christ returns. So, your claim that this can't be talking about when Jesus comes at the end of the trumpets does not line up with other scripture. This is talking about His final wrath, not the first time any of His wrath comes down. This is His final wrath that will destroy all of His enemies at His return.

Absolutely. I already know what most know and understand why they are wrong. Not my first rodeo and I believed some of those things myself for a while. For instance, many have the Church going through the wrath of God. That cannot possibly be correct as we are not appointed to wrath.
I'm not trying to be rude or rile you up or anything, but do you know how arrogant it comes across when someone like you acts like you are the only one to have all these things figured out? It's just unbelievable. You're not the only one here right that. There are several people on this forum who have doctrines all to themselves. But, God doesn't work that way. He would not reveal these things to only one person. Please think about that.

There are many that are absolutely sure that there is a pretrib rapture. And they have absolute proof.
There, of course, is no absolute proof of that. Not even close.

And many believe that the rapture cannot happen until the man of sin is revealed. And they have absolute proof. It never occurs to most that both are correct. As I studied years ago, I was sure the pretribbers were incorrect as the rapture was shown to happen at the 6th seal. This was very puzzling because they had proof that there was a pretrib rapture. I was sure there was a rapture at the 6th seal. So then the question was who was raptured. It wasn't the Church. Those 144,000 first fruits tell you who is raptured at the 6th seal.
Nah. I am not convinced even in the slightest by your arguments. Please don't be offended by that. I'm just being honest. But, you seem to think you can convince me to agree with you. That will never happen, just so you know. But, we can agree to disagree respectfully.
 

Spiritual Israelite

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I'll give you the revelation.
I don't believe that I can learn anything from you about this. I find your view to be incredibly convoluted. Again, I don't mean any offense, but I just don't need you to act like you need to give me the revelation. I'm not asking for that from you. I do appreciate you sharing your view, though.

What the Word says EXACTLY, is what is going to happen. As soon as you start making things up, like the 144,000 is the Church or the 144,000 is all of Israel you are lost and off the path.
It's making things up to recognize symbolism within possibly the most highly symbolic book in all of scripture? That's just silly.

If you have the Church on earth during the wrath of God you are off the path.
I don't have the church on earth when the final wrath of God comes down on the entire earth as written about in Matthew 24:35-39, 2 Thess 1:7-9 and 2 Peter 3:10-12. It will cover the entire earth, so, obviously, the church would need to be caught up before then. But, I believe that happens on the day Christ returns.

You have to accept the written Word.
I do. Don't tell me otherwise.

If God says that there are TWO folds, that's what He means.
And if He says He has brought the two folds together as one, that's also what He means.

If He says when He comes it will be like the days of Noah. That's what He means.
Well, that's basically true, but that doesn't mean it will like the days of Noah in literally every way. It won't rain for many days leading up to the return of Christ, for example. I'm kidding here about that, but not about the fact that it won't be the same in literally every way. It will be like the days of Noah in the way that Jesus said it would be and we shouldn't read any more into it than that.

If He says likewise when He comes it will be like the days of Lot, that's what He means.
Right, but with the understanding that it will be like the days of Lot only in the ways that He said they would be.

If you can use scripture to disprove anything I say, I'll be the first to change what I believe.
Well, that's not entirely true. I believe I can disprove it while showing the real meaning of some scriptures that are not meant to be taken in a hyper-literal way like you do. But, you obviously won't accept any interpretations except those that interpret it in a very literal way. So, you make it very difficult to disprove anything you say by creating your man-made rules of how scripture should be interpreted which don't line up with what Paul wrote in 1 Corinthians 2:9-16. Your approach requires no spiritual discernment while Paul said we need spiritual discernment in order to understand the kind of things we're talking about.

Yeah. I used to think that also. Then I understood the barley and wheat harvest. Then I understood there are elders in heaven with crowns which is proof that Jesus has returned. There are also kings and priests before the throne.
Why wouldn't they be the souls of the dead in Christ who already were kings and priests while they were alive?

Revelation 1:5 And from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, and the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth. Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood, 6 And hath made us kings and priests unto God and his Father; to him be glory and dominion for ever and ever. Amen.


I believe exactly what the Word says.
So do I. But, it's not always literal. Which everyone knows...except for you, I guess?

The living will not precede the dead. The dead in Christ will rise first. When God returns He will bring the dead in Christ with Him. The alive remain, just like the Word says. When you put the harvests and feast days together, it all fits perfectly.
I'm sorry, but you are butchering 1 Thessalonians 4:14-17. You're not taking it as written as you like to say you do. As written, it indicates that the dead in Christ are with Him when He comes and the first thing that happens at that point is that their bodies are resurrected. Do you not believe that the souls of the dead in Christ are in heaven? That's who will be with Christ when He comes. After He descends from heaven, the first thing to happen is that the bodies of the dead in Christ will rise. Their souls will unite with their bodies. Then those who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them to meet the Lord in the air. That's what it says as written. I'm starting to not believe you always stick to your literal as written approach when it's clear that you are not doing that with 1 Thessalonians 4:14-17.

Or am I accepting what is written. In 1 thes 4, the rapture of the mostly Gentile Church. The dead in Christ are changed and rise first. Then after that, the alive that remain are changed.
That all happens at the same time. How are you not seeing that? It's very obvious.

1n 1 Cor 15 the dead and alive are changed at the same time.
Just like is described in 1 Thess 4:14-17. There is no basis whatsoever to not see those as speaking of the same event.

There are two folds.
There WERE two folds. One for Jewish believers and one for Gentiles believers. But, not anymore. Jesus made them into one fold. Let's put your "as written" approach to scripture to the test and see if you apply it to this passage.

Ephesians 2:11 Wherefore remember, that ye being in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands; 12 That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world: 13 But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ. 14 For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us;

This says Jesus HATH MADE both one. Both folds that you are talking about (the Jews fold and the Gentiles fold). Do you accept this passage as written?

The fig tree has two harvests.
I'd ask what that means, but I don't care. Has nothing to do with end times prophecy.

Ask a Rabbi what the Last Trump is. He certainly won't tell you its the trump of God or voice of God. And it absolutely is not the seventh trumpet of Wrath blown by an angel.
Do you get some of your understanding of scripture from non-Christian Rabbis? That is not wise. That's concerning.

No worries. However, it is actually complete SENSE. Remember, if you have the Church going through the wrath of God, you cannot be correct as we are not appointed to wrath. Enjoyed talking with you. Give your head a rest. LOL. Me too.
I don't have the church going through the wrath of God. I am fully aware that we are not appointed to God's wrath, since it explicitly says so in 1 Thess 5:9. But, I have a different understanding of the wrath of God than you do. The only wrath that would require us to be taken off of the earth is the final wrath that affects the entire earth on the day Christ returns. There's no reason to be taken off of the earth at any time before that.
 

Jay Ross

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Jay, Satan was not in the third heaven at that time. btw, it was 70, not 72.

There are three heavens, relative to earth. The earth's atmosphere, first heaven. The cosmos, the second heaven. Heaven where God's throne is, the third heaven.

Satan fell from the first heaven as lightening, when the 70 cast out the devils. Satan at that time was in the location of Israel. Do you recall that Satan tempted Jesus while Jesus was in the wilderness of Israel ?


Revelation 12:7-9 will be a battle between Michael (the powerful good angel that watches over Israel, Daniel 12:1) and his good angels vs Satan (the evil angel) and his evil angels.

The heaven that Satan and his angels will be cast down from is the second heaven, the cosmos. Their home, the second heaven, will be rolled up like a scroll, departed, when the sixth seal event takes place. The stars will appear to fall to the earth, as they disappear on the horizon.

Revelation 6:
13 And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.
14 And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.


You have demonstrated false doctrine in your post about the heavens and the number of them.

Scriptural references that you have provided do not support your commentary. It is only your opinion that supports what you have posted.

Goodbye
 

The Light

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I don't believe that I can learn anything from you about this. I find your view to be incredibly convoluted. Again, I don't mean any offense, but I just don't need you to act like you need to give me the revelation. I'm not asking for that from you. I do appreciate you sharing your view, though.
If you don't feel it is appropriate to accept what is written and don't make things up it's all good.
It's making things up to recognize symbolism within possibly the most highly symbolic book in all of scripture? That's just silly.
So you're telling me you think the 144,000 is the Church.

And if He says He has brought the two folds together as one, that's also what He means.
Yes, but it seems you want to ignore the timing of the two folds becoming one. It can't happen until they believe.
Right, but with the understanding that it will be like the days of Lot only in the ways that He said they would be.
I think in the days of Noah, mankind was particularly evil. But it good to make note that Noah was in the ark 6 days before the flood.

The days of Lot were days of sexual prevision. It good to make note that the day Lot left Sodom destruction came.

Well, that's not entirely true. I believe I can disprove it while showing the real meaning of some scriptures that are not meant to be taken in a hyper-literal way like you do. But, you obviously won't accept any interpretations except those that interpret it in a very literal way. So, you make it very difficult to disprove anything you say by creating your man-made rules of how scripture should be interpreted which don't line up with what Paul wrote in 1 Corinthians 2:9-16. Your approach requires no spiritual discernment while Paul said we need spiritual discernment in order to understand the kind of things we're talking about.
That's correct. It is very difficult to disprove anything I say because I just say what is written. That's pretty tough to argue against. Here is the discernment that we need regarding prophecy.

2 Peter 1
20 Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation.

21 For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost.

This is why we don't make things up like the 144,000 is the Church. The scripture tells us when dealing with prophecy just read what the holy men have said.

As far as symbolism, it's pretty easy to determine when symbolism is used, and the Bible explains the Bible.
Why wouldn't they be the souls of the dead in Christ who already were kings and priests while they were alive?
Good question. The fact that the 24 elders have crowns tells us that Jesus has come and they have new bodies.

Here is a question for you. Why are there soul under alter and not standing before the throne of God?

So do I. But, it's not always literal. Which everyone knows...except for you, I guess?
It's literal so there is no private interpretation. Scripture makes a lot more sense when we keep our personal opinions out of the matter.

I'm sorry, but you are butchering 1 Thessalonians 4:14-17. You're not taking it as written as you like to say you do. As written, it indicates that the dead in Christ are with Him when He comes and the first thing that happens at that point is that their bodies are resurrected. Do you not believe that the souls of the dead in Christ are in heaven? That's who will be with Christ when He comes. After He descends from heaven, the first thing to happen is that the bodies of the dead in Christ will rise. Their souls will unite with their bodies. Then those who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them to meet the Lord in the air. That's what it says as written. I'm starting to not believe you always stick to your literal as written approach when it's clear that you are not doing that with 1 Thessalonians 4:14-17.
The living will not precede the dead. The dead in Christ rise first. The dead in Christ go to heaven. When Christ returns for the alive that remained, He will bring the dead in Christ with Him. The alive will caught up and meet them in the air.

We see a similar situation when Christ comes for the harvest at the 6th seal. It is the gathering from heaven and earth. The Church that is already in heaven is gathered and follows the Lord to the clouds of the earth. Then in a twinkling of an eye the dead and alive that are on or in the earth are changed. All then return to heaven, hence, the great multitude in heaven and the marriage supper.

There WERE two folds. One for Jewish believers and one for Gentiles believers. But, not anymore. Jesus made them into one fold. Let's put your "as written" approach to scripture to the test and see if you apply it to this passage.

Ephesians 2:11 Wherefore remember, that ye being in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands; 12 That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world: 13 But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ. 14 For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us;

This says Jesus HATH MADE both one. Both folds that you are talking about (the Jews fold and the Gentiles fold). Do you accept this passage as written?
That at that time ye were without Christ. You are not in the fold if you are without Christ. His sheep hear His voice. But He has other sheep not of this fold. Once the fullness of the Gentiles comes in, part of Israel has its blindness removed. Once they accept Jesus as the Messiah they will be the second fold. And then two folds become one.

Romans 11
18 Boast not against the branches. But if thou boast, thou bearest not the root, but the root thee.

19 Thou wilt say then, The branches were broken off, that I might be grafted in.

20 Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear:

21 For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee.

22 Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.

23 And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be grafted in: for God is able to graft them in again.

24 For if thou wert cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and wert grafted contrary to nature into a good olive tree: how much more shall these, which be the natural branches, be grafted into their own olive tree?

I'd ask what that means, but I don't care. Has nothing to do with end times prophecy.

The fig tree has two harvests. There will be two raptures

Hosea 9
10 I found Israel like grapes in the wilderness; I saw your fathers as the firstripe in the fig tree at her first time: but they went to Baalpeor, and separated themselves unto that shame; and their abominations were according as they loved.
Do you get some of your understanding of scripture from non-Christian Rabbis? That is not wise. That's concerning.
Actually, Rabbi turned Christian. No concern.

I don't have the church going through the wrath of God. I am fully aware that we are not appointed to God's wrath, since it explicitly says so in 1 Thess 5:9. But, I have a different understanding of the wrath of God than you do. The only wrath that would require us to be taken off of the earth is the final wrath that affects the entire earth on the day Christ returns. There's no reason to be taken off of the earth at any time before that.
So do you have the Church on earth at Armageddon?
 

Douggg

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You have demonstrated false doctrine in your post about the heavens and the number of them.

Scriptural references that you have provided do not support your commentary. It is only your opinion that supports what you have posted.

Goodbye
Paul wrote in 2Corinthians12:2

2 I knew a man in Christ above fourteen years ago, (whether in the body, I cannot tell; or whether out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth ; ) such an one caught up to the third heaven.