False Views of Righteousness

[Axehead]

[background=rgb(250, 250, 250)]Many Christians say, "God only requires one to be righteous. His Son". The thought goes that since He is righteous, God does not require me to be righteous. [/background]This is a typical response[background=rgb(250, 250, 250)] coming from Christendom, today. [/background]

[background=rgb(250, 250, 250)]Does God require men to be righteous? Here many Christians would respond, "No". They take a view called [/background]positional holiness[background=rgb(250, 250, 250)] [/background][background=rgb(250, 250, 250)]that can be expressed as follows: [/background]

[background=rgb(250, 250, 250)]"Oh, yes, I am very unholy and I commit sin; I sin in thought, word and deed every day, but by virtue of my position in [/background][background=rgb(250, 250, 250)]Christ, all Christ's perfect righteousness is accredited to me so that [/background]God does not even see my sin; He sees only Christ[background=rgb(250, 250, 250)] [/background][background=rgb(250, 250, 250)]and since I have my position in Christ, I remain holy before God." [/background]

[background=rgb(250, 250, 250)]The logic is, because of my position in Christ, God does not see me, He sees only Christ. Since Christ is righteous, I am righteous. [/background]

[background=rgb(250, 250, 250)]In this view one see righteousness as a legal position in Christ [/background]rather than a life of righteousness.[background=rgb(250, 250, 250)] [/background][background=rgb(250, 250, 250)]They would say you cannot be righteous, only reckoned righteous. Faith enters into a legalistic reckoning of all sins, past, present and future, as already remitted. A [/background]permanent justification[background=rgb(250, 250, 250)] [/background][background=rgb(250, 250, 250)]encompasses all the future sins he may commit, and nothing he does will change his position in Christ.[/background][background=rgb(250, 250, 250)] [/background]Faith has completed the work, he no longer is responsible to repent.

[background=rgb(250, 250, 250)]Also a certain [/background][background=rgb(255, 235, 144)]gnosticism[/background][background=rgb(250, 250, 250)] has [/background][background=rgb(255, 235, 144)]entered[/background][background=rgb(250, 250, 250)] the church that says [/background]the knowledge of it makes it so.[background=rgb(250, 250, 250)] [/background][background=rgb(250, 250, 250)]In this view, righteousness is just a matter of knowledge.[/background][background=rgb(250, 250, 250)] [/background]If you know it, then it is yours.[background=rgb(250, 250, 250)] [/background][background=rgb(250, 250, 250)]Confess it, and it will be so. This accomodates the positional view of righteousness. [/background]

[background=rgb(250, 250, 250)]But,[/background][background=rgb(250, 250, 250)] [/background][background=rgb(250, 250, 250)]does a confession of righteousness make one righteous? [/background]

Is faith a substitute for repentance?

Axehead

 

[Arnie Manitoba]

Hi axehead .... Are you righteous ? And how ? thanks.

 

[Episkopos]

[background=rgb(250, 250, 250)]Many Christians say, "God only requires one to be righteous. His Son". The thought goes that since He is righteous, God does not require me to be righteous. [/background]This is a typical response[background=rgb(250, 250, 250)] coming from Christendom, today. [/background]

[background=rgb(250, 250, 250)]Does God require men to be righteous? Here many Christians would respond, "No". They take a view called [/background]positional holiness[background=rgb(250, 250, 250)] [/background][background=rgb(250, 250, 250)]that can be expressed as follows: [/background]

[background=rgb(250, 250, 250)]"Oh, yes, I am very unholy and I commit sin; I sin in thought, word and deed every day, but by virtue of my position in [/background][background=rgb(250, 250, 250)]Christ, all Christ's perfect righteousness is accredited to me so that [/background]God does not even see my sin; He sees only Christ[background=rgb(250, 250, 250)] [/background][background=rgb(250, 250, 250)]and since I have my position in Christ, I remain holy before God." [/background]

[background=rgb(250, 250, 250)]The logic is, because of my position in Christ, God does not see me, He sees only Christ. Since Christ is righteous, I am righteous. [/background]

[background=rgb(250, 250, 250)]In this view one see righteousness as a legal position in Christ [/background]rather than a life of righteousness.[background=rgb(250, 250, 250)] [/background][background=rgb(250, 250, 250)]They would say you cannot be righteous, only reckoned righteous. Faith enters into a legalistic reckoning of all sins, past, present and future, as already remitted. A [/background]permanent justification[background=rgb(250, 250, 250)] [/background][background=rgb(250, 250, 250)]encompasses all the future sins he may commit, and nothing he does will change his position in Christ.[/background][background=rgb(250, 250, 250)] [/background]Faith has completed the work, he no longer is responsible to repent.

[background=rgb(250, 250, 250)]Also a certain [/background][background=rgb(255, 235, 144)]gnosticism[/background][background=rgb(250, 250, 250)] has [/background][background=rgb(255, 235, 144)]entered[/background][background=rgb(250, 250, 250)] the church that says [/background]the knowledge of it makes it so.[background=rgb(250, 250, 250)] [/background][background=rgb(250, 250, 250)]In this view, righteousness is just a matter of knowledge.[/background][background=rgb(250, 250, 250)] [/background]If you know it, then it is yours.[background=rgb(250, 250, 250)] [/background][background=rgb(250, 250, 250)]Confess it, and it will be so. This accomodates the positional view of righteousness. [/background]

[background=rgb(250, 250, 250)]But,[/background][background=rgb(250, 250, 250)] [/background][background=rgb(250, 250, 250)]does a confession of righteousness make one righteous? [/background]

Is faith a substitute for repentance?

Axehead

Yes! The whole fallacy is based on a man declaring himself righteous before God because he has read some verses. A clearer case of self-righteousness cannot be found.

 

[Trekson]

Hi Axehead, I suppose there is a possibility that some people may believe this, but I haven't met any. If they have this errant view of positional holiness than they are wrong, but that doesn't make the concept of positional holiness wrong. To answer your 2 questions:

[background=rgb(250, 250, 250)]But,[/background][background=rgb(250, 250, 250)] [/background][background=rgb(250, 250, 250)]does a confession of righteousness make one righteous? [/background][background=rgb(250, 250, 250)]No![/background]

Is faith a substitute for repentance? Again, No!

To view this properly we must be aware of two things.

1. Is. 64:6 - "But we are all as an unclean thing, and all our righteousnesses are as filthy rags; and we all do fade as a leaf; and our iniquities, like the wind, have taken us away."

1A. Rom. 3:10 - "As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one."

1B. Titus 3:5 - "[sup] [/sup]Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost."

2. 1 John 3:7 - (AMP) "Boys (lads), let no one deceive and lead you astray. He who practices righteousness [who is upright, conforming to the divine will in purpose, thought, and action, living a consistently conscientious life] is righteous, even as He is righteous


Points 1-1B make us aware that we won't be judged by our feeble attempts at righteousness. It is only because our motivation is to be like Christ, we are even considered, however our best attempts to be as righteous as Christ fail miserably in comparison to the righteousness that is Christ. This righteousness issue may be a matter of rewards but it isn't a matter of salvation.

Point 2 shows that we have a personal responsibility to grow in the grace and knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ and to imitate Him as best as we can. Many people consider holiness to be measured by how much we sin or don't sin, but that's not the truth. Our holiness will be judged on how much of Christ's character did we reflect to those we meet in this life.

When we stand before God, He is not going to judge our eternal destiny based on our acts of righteousness, or our failure to do so. Look at the thief on the cross. He had no time for practicing righteousness, yet Christ said, "Today you will be with me in Paradise." We know that "all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God". Based on that reality, the only thing God will look at (for salvational purposes) is, are our sins covered by the blood of Christ based upon our faith in His completed work? If the answer is Yes, we're in...if not, we're out. It's as simple as that.

 

[Episkopos]

Hi Axehead, I suppose there is a possibility that some people may believe this, but I haven't met any. If they have this errant view of positional holiness than they are wrong, but that doesn't make the concept of positional holiness wrong. To answer your 2 questions:

[background=rgb(250, 250, 250)]But,[/background][background=rgb(250, 250, 250)] [/background][background=rgb(250, 250, 250)]does a confession of righteousness make one righteous? [/background][background=rgb(250, 250, 250)]No![/background]

Is faith a substitute for repentance? Again, No!

To view this properly we must be aware of two things.

1. Is. 64:6 - "But we are all as an unclean thing, and all our righteousnesses are as filthy rags; and we all do fade as a leaf; and our iniquities, like the wind, have taken us away."

1A. Rom. 3:10 - "As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one."

1B. Titus 3:5 - "[sup] [/sup]Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost."

2. 1 John 3:7 - (AMP) "Boys (lads), let no one deceive and lead you astray. He who practices righteousness [who is upright, conforming to the divine will in purpose, thought, and action, living a consistently conscientious life] is righteous, even as He is righteous


Points 1-1B make us aware that we won't be judged by our feeble attempts at righteousness. It is only because our motivation is to be like Christ, we are even considered, however our best attempts to be as righteous as Christ fail miserably in comparison to the righteousness that is Christ. This righteousness issue may be a matter of rewards but it isn't a matter of salvation.

Point 2 shows that we have a personal responsibility to grow in the grace and knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ and to imitate Him as best as we can. Many people consider holiness to be measured by how much we sin or don't sin, but that's not the truth. Our holiness will be judged on how much of Christ's character did we reflect to those we meet in this life.

When we stand before God, He is not going to judge our eternal destiny based on our acts of righteousness, or our failure to do so. Look at the thief on the cross. He had no time for practicing righteousness, yet Christ said, "Today you will be with me in Paradise." We know that "all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God". Based on that reality, the only thing God will look at (for salvational purposes) is, are our sins covered by the blood of Christ based upon our faith in His completed work? If the answer is Yes, we're in...if not, we're out. It's as simple as that.

How do you know that your faith in His completed work is acceptable to God?

 

[haz]

Hi Axehead,

You said in the topic ‘Can You Be Righteous’, ‘If righteousness is not being manifested in and through us, is it possible that we are not saved and only walking in a form of godliness?’

As neither you nor your likeminded friend’s are manifesting this perfect behavior of righteousness, then you seem to be confirming Epi’s claims that you guys are not abiding in Christ and are under the death penalty until the period when you do consistently maintain righteous behavior. You seem to be saying that you yourself are only walking in a form of godliness at the moment.

BTW, what do you gauge ‘righteousness’ in your behavior/lifestyle by?
Is it judged by the law of righteousness?

 

[Groundzero]

Faith and repentance are completely different things. So, no.

 

[dragonfly]

Hi haz,

Here is another definition of 'the law of righteousness', which you may wish to consider. This is the way righteousness is obtained by faith, as the Gentiles obtained it in Romans 9:30.

Matthew 7:21b '... he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.'

.
Hi Trekson,

When we stand before God, He is not going to judge our eternal destiny based on our acts of righteousness, or our failure to do so. Look at the thief on the cross. He had no time for practicing righteousness, yet Christ said, "Today you will be with me in Paradise."

But he had enough time to demonstrate by his verbal conversation that he'd had a change of heart.

I can see how easy it is to confuse the works of the law with works of righteousness.

Peter and James are both strong on what comes out of our mouths, and what it tells us and others about the state of our hearts. Probably Peter remembered denying Christ - with only the words that had come out of his mouth. He did it in a very direct way, having been asked a direct question about Jesus, but many people who would call themselves Christians, deny Christ by what comes out of their mouths, yet never put the obvious 2 + 2 together to figure out that what they're hearing is the state of their own heart, and others are hearing it too.

God looks on the heart.

I once heard a challenging sermon on 'You have as much righteousness as you have love' (meaning the love of God for others). That was a while ago, but I remember wondering about the connection. Now I can see that it's about one's state of heart.

This is where we get the homily, 'it's the thought that counts'. That cuts both ways in the sight of God!

The thief is interesting, because he represents everyone whose physical circumstances prevent them from acting physically - disabled people, sick children, elderly and dying - all can come to the Lord as they are, and receive salvation from Him, complete with a new heart, which will immediately demonstrate itself in how they consider others now that their own deepest needs have been met.

We see this in the thief, who was quick to point out to the other thief that the man dying between them had done nothing wrong. He vindicated Christ in His hour of deepest trial, when His reputation was at its lowest ebb, and we are blessed to have his findings which add to all the evidence that Christ truly was the Son of God, the spotless, sinless Lamb of God. Glory to His name!!

 

[Axehead]

Hi axehead .... Are you righteous ? And how ? thanks.

Hi Arnie,

We are transformed by His righteousness. Righteousness must be found in the heart of man. Jesus said, "For out of the heart proceed evil thoughts, murders, adulteries, fornications, thefts, false witness, blasphemies: These are the things which defile a man: but to eat with unwashen hands defileth not a man (Matt 15:19-20).

"These are things which defile a man."

Again, He emphasizes the heart when He said, "Blessed are the pure in heart for they shall see God". Unless righteousness is found in the heart man is not righteous.

The heart is the fountain of all desire and from it "flow the issues of life".

Only abiding in Him will we bring forth fruit because then He will purge our hearts of unrighteous desires and replace them with righteous desires.

What is the answer for man's sin? Is it religion? A very religious man concluded, "self-made religion and self-abasement and severe treatment of the body are of no value against fleshly indulgence" (Col 2:23). Mahatma Buddha thought he had discovered a great truth. If he could come to a place void of desire then he would be free from pain and evil. Consequently he deserted his wife and new-born son to separate himself from all desire in life.

Jesus teaches us that righteousness is not the absence of desire, rather it is righteous desires that make one righteous. As a man He had natural desires, yet He was without sin. If He was tempted in all ways as a man, what kept Him from sin? He was found righteous because he subjected every desire to one consuming desire.

In the wilderness after forty days without food, the greatest desire a man could have would be to eat. He remained righteous because He subjected this strong natural desire to one desire. From the temple He was tempted with the desire for recognition, a strong soulish desire; yet He subjected that desire to one desire. From the heights of the world He was tempted to save Himself. What stronger desire does man have than self preservation? Yet He subjected that desire to one desire. What was the one consuming passion that kept sin from coming in? The one consuming passion that was stronger than any desire of His soul or body was to please the Father. Every desire was subjected to this one desire. Perfection is not the absence of desire, neither is righteousness found in a vacuum. Righteous desires within the heart bring forth righteousness. Righteousness must come from the heart.

I will talk more about how one comes to have righteous desires, but I think I need to deal with the issue of unrighteous desires. If you keep an eye on the "Can You Be Righteous" thread you will read these things. I will be talking about a "Baptism of Fire", "Circumcision of the Heart" and "The Law of the Spirit". Also, we need to know how to Abide in Christ which is abiding in His Light, His Life and His Love. We need to keep ourselves from defilement as there are many things a believer can do to stay free from daily defilement. We will see from Scripture how to eliminate mixture in our lives, be aware of lawlessness, walk in the spirit of reconciliation, daily consecrate yourself on the altar, draw your life from the Spirit and not the flesh, subject every desire to one desire, abide in Christ, endure the discipline of the Father and beware of willful sin.

But the key is that God is looking for hearts that are completely His.
"For the eyes of the Lord move to and fro throughout the earth that He may strongly support those whose heart is completely His" (II Chron 16:9).

God is not looking for sacrifice and performance; neither is He impressed by religious words. God is looking for righteousness in the heart. Only the desire to love Him and do His will ABOVE ALL ELSE will join one's heart to Him.

What is the desire that consumes you (speaking generally)?

God speaks to a people with a divided heart:

'This people honors Me with their lips,
But their heart is far away from Me.
But in vain do they worship Me,
Teaching as their doctrines the precepts of men"
Matthew 15:8,9

One last admonition:
"Therefore, having these promises, beloved, let us CLEANSE ourselves from all defilement of flesh and spirit, perfecting holiness in the fear of God" (II Cor 7:1)

Blessings to you,
Axehead

 

[Episkopos]

Hi Axehead,

You said in the topic ‘Can You Be Righteous’, ‘If righteousness is not being manifested in and through us, is it possible that we are not saved and only walking in a form of godliness?’

As neither you nor your likeminded friend’s are manifesting this perfect behavior of righteousness, then you seem to be confirming Epi’s claims that you guys are not abiding in Christ and are under the death penalty until the period when you do consistently maintain righteous behavior. You seem to be saying that you yourself are only walking in a form of godliness at the moment.

BTW, what do you gauge ‘righteousness’ in your behavior/lifestyle by?
Is it judged by the law of righteousness?

We are not seeking to be made righteous by our own power or strength.....but in the Lord's power. This is a higher law...the law of holiness in the life of Jesus. We are learning to abide in Christ in all circumstances...even walk in a total consecration.

Sin is just an indicator that we are not drawing life ONLY from Christ. We are learning to put our hope, faith, condidence in Christ alone. We sin at he depth we yet lack.

God tests our faith until it is complete.

It is like starting out shooting at 20 metres until one can accurately hit the bullseye each time. Then God PRUNES us and gives us a further target 30, 60 and 100 metres! ;) . And on and on until we are at the proper range to rule with Christ.

It is a process of faith and faithfulness.

 

[haz]

Hi Axehead, dragonfly and Epi,

The thief on the cross who called Jesus 'Lord' was saved, righteous, holy, sanctified and perfected without any evidence of this in the physical. This contradicts your doctrine, in spite of your efforts to explain away this inconvenient truth. Your arguments that had he lived on there would have been perfect righteous behavior, and that only the dying, disabled and sick are excused by God from showing evidence of perfect righteous behavior, is unsupported in scripture.

The thief on the cross demonstrates how righteousness is 'imputed' apart from works (Rom 4:6).
The doctrine you guys follow contradicts this, claiming that those of us who are not excused from works of evidence of perfect righteous behavior face condemnation/death should we fail to achieve and maintain it consistently.

There is a false view of righteousness, and this is the one that speaks of 'imparted' righteousness in the physical. This false view of righteousness is similar to the law of sin and death, but it's under a different label. Both the law of sin and death and the 'imparted' righteousness doctrine demand perfect continual obedience as proof of righteousness in the physical or condemnation/death is the result (as Epi has indicated).

But, instead, we see there is no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus (Rom 8:1, John 3:18), thus contradicting the imparted righteousness doctrine.

And those in Christ Jesus do the will of our Father in heaven and face no condemnation due to their obedience.

John 6:40
And this is the will of Him who sent Me, that everyone who sees the Son and believes in Him may have everlasting life; and I will raise him up at the last day.”

1Thess 4:3
For this is the will of God, even your sanctification, that ye should abstain from fornication

Sadly, those who seek to be perfected by the flesh are those who will say in that day "Lord, Lord....", only to hear 'depart from me ye that work iniquity'. These have rejected the will of God.

BTW, are there different types of righteousness?
We know of the law of righteousness (10 commandments), as scripture speaks of. But you always avoid this and speak of righteousness in some indistinct allegedly higher type.

Scripture shows righteousness is attained either by works OR by faith. This speaks of only ONE righteousness, which is gauged by the law of righteousness. Why do you avoid the righteousness that is determined by the law of righteousness?

 

[Episkopos]

Hi Axehead, dragonfly and Epi,

The thief on the cross who called Jesus 'Lord' was saved, righteous, holy, sanctified and perfected without any evidence of this in the physical. This contradicts your doctrine, in spite of your efforts to explain away this inconvenient truth. Your arguments that had he lived on there would have been perfect righteous behavior, and that only the dying, disabled and sick are excused by God from showing evidence of perfect righteous behavior, is unsupported in scripture.

The thief on the cross demonstrates how righteousness is 'imputed' apart from works (Rom 4:6).
The doctrine you guys follow contradicts this, claiming that those of us who are not excused from works of evidence of perfect righteous behavior face condemnation/death should we fail to achieve and maintain it consistently.

There is a false view of righteousness, and this is the one that speaks of 'imparted' righteousness in the physical. This false view of righteousness is similar to the law of sin and death, but it's under a different label. Both the law of sin and death and the 'imparted' righteousness doctrine demand perfect continual obedience as proof of righteousness in the physical or condemnation/death is the result (as Epi has indicated).

But, instead, we see there is no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus (Rom 8:1, John 3:18), thus contradicting the imparted righteousness doctrine.

And those in Christ Jesus do the will of our Father in heaven and face no condemnation due to their obedience.

John 6:40
And this is the will of Him who sent Me, that everyone who sees the Son and believes in Him may have everlasting life; and I will raise him up at the last day.”

1Thess 4:3
For this is the will of God, even your sanctification, that ye should abstain from fornication

Sadly, those who seek to be perfected by the flesh are those who will say in that day "Lord, Lord....", only to hear 'depart from me ye that work iniquity'. These have rejected the will of God.

BTW, are there different types of righteousness?
We know of the law of righteousness (10 commandments), as scripture speaks of. But you always avoid this and speak of righteousness in some indistinct allegedly higher type.

Scripture shows righteousness is attained either by works OR by faith. This speaks of only ONE righteousness, which is gauged by the law of righteousness. Why do you avoid the righteousness that is determined by the law of righteousness?

This is way off...the thief on the cross was barely saved...by the skin of his teeth. He turned at the last possible moment to do what was right and was accounted righteous for it...certainly not holy!!!!

 

[haz]

This is way off...the thief on the cross was barely saved...by the skin of his teeth. He turned at the last possible moment to do what was right and was accounted righteous for it...certainly not holy!!!!

Hi Epi,

If the thief on the cross was not made holy in Christ then we see what crowd he is with in 1Tim 1:9

knowing this: that the law is not made for a righteous person, but for the lawless and insubordinate, for the ungodly and for sinners, for the unholy and profane, for murderers of fathers and murderers of mothers, for manslayers,

There are 2 groups listed here in 1Tim 1:9

Group 1: The Righteous. You claim the thief on the cross is righteous.

Group 2: The lawless, insubordinate, ungodly, sinners, unholy, profane, murderers, etc. You claim the thief on the cross is part of this group too.

How is it that you put the thief on the cross in both these groups?

 

[Episkopos]

Hi Epi,

If the thief on the cross was not made holy in Christ then we see what crowd he is with in 1Tim 1:9

knowing this: that the law is not made for a righteous person, but for the lawless and insubordinate, for the ungodly and for sinners, for the unholy and profane, for murderers of fathers and murderers of mothers, for manslayers,

There are 2 groups listed here in 1Tim 1:9

Group 1: The Righteous. You claim the thief on the cross is righteous.

Group 2: The lawless, insubordinate, ungodly, sinners, unholy, profane, murderers, etc. You claim the thief on the cross is part of this group too.

How is it that you put the thief on the cross in both these groups?

Haz, you don't know the scriptures to ask this.

Eze 18:27 Again, when the wicked man turneth away from his wickedness that he hath committed, and doeth that which is lawful and right, he shall save his soul alive.
Eze 18:28 Because he considereth, and turneth away from all his transgressions that he hath committed, he shall surely live, he shall not die.

 

[haz]

Hi Epi,

You fail to understand scripture with your claim that the thief on the cross was not holy.

Heb 10:10
we have been sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.

Act 26:18
to open their eyes, in order to turn them from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan to God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins and an inheritance among those who are sanctified by faith in Me.’

Rom 11:16
For if the firstfruit is holy, the lump is also holy; and if the root is holy, so are the branches.

You claim that the thief on the cross was not grafted in as a branch on the holy root. But this contradicts Rom 11:16

You claim the thief on the cross is righteous yet unholy. But this contradicts 1Tim 1:9 which shows you are either righteous OR unholy. You can't be both righteous AND unholy.

 

[Axehead]

Hi Axehead, dragonfly and Epi,

The thief on the cross who called Jesus 'Lord' was saved, righteous, holy, sanctified and perfected without any evidence of this in the physical. This contradicts your doctrine, in spite of your efforts to explain away this inconvenient truth. Your arguments that had he lived on there would have been perfect righteous behavior, and that only the dying, disabled and sick are excused by God from showing evidence of perfect righteous behavior, is unsupported in scripture.

Haz, please don't add to our words. We never said if the "thief" lived on he would have lived a "perfect righteous" life. No one does. We are babes in Christ and grow in the Spirit as one grows in the natural. Now, I have already disputed with you about the thief. You may not see any physical evidence (because you don't want to), but I see plenty. What I see is obviously much more than you regarding what the thief manifested. By the way, since Christ had not yet died and resurrected, would the thief have been a "Son" (received the Holy Spirit) or would he have been a "servant"? Maybe we should start a new thread on that.

The thief on the cross demonstrates how righteousness is 'imputed' apart from works (Rom 4:6).

The thief on the cross demonstrated works of righteousness by his Faith. His faith was not an empty confession as he rebuked the other criminal in front of a mocking crowd who thought he was out of his mind to call the emaciated man in the middle a "Lord" and confess that this dying man (Jesus) had a Kingdom. The crowd must have thought he was delirious, but that was an incredible confession (act of righteousness) fueled by his Faith in Christ. You can dispute that if you like but it doesn't change the thief's incredible public confession.

The doctrine you guys follow contradicts this, claiming that those of us who are not excused from works of evidence of perfect righteous behavior face condemnation/death should we fail to achieve and maintain it consistently.

Haz, it is very simple. Light dispels darkness. Christ who is LIGHT, comes into ones life and dispels all the darkness. Obviously, a 1st grader can understand that it will result in a big change in anyone. You dispute this and are trying everything you can to prove that you don't need to abide in Christ and maintain fellowship with Him.

There is a false view of righteousness, and this is the one that speaks of 'imparted' righteousness in the physical.

Oh, you don't believe that God can purify our hearts and minds? Righteous deeds come from righteous hearts, my friend.

Unrighteous deeds come from unrighteous hearts. This is what Jesus said. The thief demonstrated righteous deeds through a righteous public confession.

Does your Bible say that Jesus looks for righteousness in our hearts?
Mat 23:28 Even so ye also outwardly appear righteous unto men, but within ye are full of hypocrisy and iniquity.

We are transformed by His righteousness. Righteousness must be found in the heart of man. Jesus said, "For out of the heart proceed evil thoughts, murders, adulteries, fornications, thefts, false witness, blasphemies: These are the things which defile a man: but to eat with unwashen hands defileth not a man (Matt 15:19-20).

Sadly, those who seek to be perfected by the flesh are those who will say in that day "Lord, Lord....", only to hear 'depart from me ye that work iniquity'. These have rejected the will of God.

Actually, those who believe there is no transformation of righteousness possible by the Holy Spirit in one's life will be the ones that hear, "I never knew you". Their faith will only be an empty confession because of their unbelief. They never believed that Jesus could purify their hearts so they would never come to Him and abide in Him. Because, to know Him is to suffer like Him in the flesh and walk as He walked in obedience to His Father. Those who keep His commandments are the ones that love Him and know Him.

Those who know Him take His Words seriously and are doers of His Word. They also take this verse seriously. We cleanse ourselves by cooperating with the Holy Spirit's work in our lives.

"Therefore, having these promises, beloved, let us CLEANSE ourselves from all defilement of flesh and spirit, perfecting holiness in the fear of God" (II Cor 7:1)

BTW, are there different types of righteousness?
We know of the law of righteousness (10 commandments), as scripture speaks of. But you always avoid this and speak of righteousness in some indistinct allegedly higher type.

You can see God's righteousness in the 10 commandments but what we are talking about is quite simple, Haz.

Believing in Christ is being joined to Him by His Spirit and allowing Him to transform us from within, purifying our heart and motives so that we are no longer lawless and disobedient. This is the walk of Love that we have with Jesus Christ. This righteousness is attained by faith. No man can purify his own heart. The Spirit of God circumcises our heart and burns away the dross by the fire of His Holy Spirit. This is all by faith and it is done by our abiding in Him and staying in close fellowship with the Lord. He will tells us things by His Spirit that we need to comply with and the Lord does not consider this self-righteous works but rather being obedient to His voice. He is very happy if we abide in Him and yield to the working of His Spirit in our life.

Axehead

 

[Episkopos]

Hi Epi,

You fail to understand scripture with your claim that the thief on the cross was not holy.

Heb 10:10
we have been sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.

Act 26:18
to open their eyes, in order to turn them from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan to God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins and an inheritance among those who are sanctified by faith in Me.’

Rom 11:16
For if the firstfruit is holy, the lump is also holy; and if the root is holy, so are the branches.

You claim that the thief on the cross was not grafted in as a branch on the holy root. But this contradicts Rom 11:16

You claim the thief on the cross is righteous yet unholy. But this contradicts 1Tim 1:9 which shows you are either righteous OR unholy. You can't be both righteous AND unholy.

You understand neither the righteousness of God nor men.



Do you think the publican who went to his house justified before God also was holy, sanctified and glorified???

 

[haz]

Hi Axehead,

Your suggestion that I might think the thief on the cross made an 'empty confession' is a bit out there. Considering what I have been sharing about his belief, why would you suggest otherwise?

We clearly have differing views about 'abiding in Christ'. You seem to share Epi's doctrine that you are in fact not abiding in Christ as you have yet to acheive perfect behavior/righteousness.

Thanks at least for explaining how righteousness is seen through the law of righteousness (10 commandments).
Whilst I can see what your saying regarding your doctrine that 'imparted' righteousness must be seen in our physical lives, we differ in that I and others here see scripture only speaks of 'imputed' righteousness in believers.

We do really speak different languages, as you said. I see that the likes of you and Epi quote scripture purely from the physical perspective leading you to reject what we have in Christ until you see perfection by the flesh. Sadly this is unbelief.

 

[Axehead]

Hi Axehead,

Your suggestion that I might think the thief on the cross made an 'empty confession' is a bit out there. Considering what I have been sharing about his belief, why would you suggest otherwise?

Then you do agree that he demonstrated visibly a righteous act (his public confession of Christ as Lord of a Kingdom and his rebuke of the other criminal).

We clearly have differing views about 'abiding in Christ'. You seem to share Epi's doctrine that you are in fact not abiding in Christ as you have yet to acheive perfect behavior/righteousness.

I share the Bible's view that we are to abide in Christ and this is not passive belief but is demonstrated in our words and actions.

Thanks at least for explaining how righteousness is seen through the law of righteousness (10 commandments).

Actually, I did not describe God's righteousness that is displayed in the 10 commandments. I will be taking these one at a time in "Can You Be Righteous" to show God's righteousness in each commandment. But, don't misunderstand that I am saying if one keeps the 10 commandments then they are considered as abiding in the Lord.

Whilst I can see what your saying regarding your doctrine that 'imparted' righteousness must be seen in our physical lives, we differ in that I and others here see scripture only speaks of 'imputed' righteousness in believers.

Oh no, scripture speaks greatly of the TRANSFORMATION of RIGHTEOUSNESS in a Believer. And it doesn't talk about this in a "little corner". This is in many books of the NT.

We do really speak different languages, as you said. I see that the likes of you and Epi quote scripture purely from the physical perspective leading you to reject what we have in Christ until you see perfection by the flesh. Sadly this is unbelief.

Jesus saved us in our physical bodies. Salvation must take place in this life in our physical bodies. We bear fruit (you will know a tree by their fruit) for all to see in our physical bodies (love, kindness, gentleness, forgiveness, etc), we turn from darkness to the light in our spirit which is seen in our physical bodies because we stop sinning, we show love to all men in our physical bodies. Our physical bodies, (mouth, hands, arms) communicated to others what God is doing in our lives. Out of heart comes cursing or blessing and this is manifested through our mouth and actions. What part of this don't you understand?

If one is truly a Christian it will manifest for all to see.

Are you doing something with your physical body that you are trying to justify by saying everything in this life takes place in the spirit with no manifestation in our physical body? You do know don't you that there is no sin that you can be engaged in with your physical body that is not first initiated in your soul/spirit. Are there any sins that you don't think the Lord can help us to overcome?

Axehead

 

[haz]

Then you do agree that he demonstrated visibly a righteous act (his public confession of Christ as Lord of a Kingdom and his rebuke of the other criminal).

Yes, I would agree. The thief demonstrated, by his works (believing on Jesus, John 6:29), his faith. 'His faith is counted for righteousness', Rom 4:5. And this is what all believers have done.
Hence, Christians have ceased from sin as they abide in Christ.

I share the Bible's view that we are to abide in Christ and this is not passive belief but is demonstrated in our words and actions.

Where we disagree is that you don't accept this until you see evidence by perfect behaviour (words and actions) in the physical. What I see is that the doctrine you follow is about seeking to be perfected by the flesh. You are not seeking righteousness by faith this way. Instead this is seeking to establish righteousness by works.

Jesus saved us in our physical bodies. Salvation must take place in this life in our physical bodies. We bear fruit (you will know a tree by their fruit) for all to see in our physical bodies (love, kindness, gentleness, forgiveness, etc), we turn from darkness to the light in our spirit which is seen in our physical bodies because we stop sinning, we show love to all men in our physical bodies. Our physical bodies, (mouth, hands, arms) communicated to others what God is doing in our lives. Out of heart comes cursing or blessing and this is manifested through our mouth and actions. What part of this don't you understand?

If one is truly a Christian it will manifest for all to see.

Are you doing something with your physical body that you are trying to justify by saying everything in this life takes place in the spirit with no manifestation in our physical body? You do know don't you that there is no sin that you can be engaged in with your physical body that is not first initiated in your soul/spirit. Are there any sins that you don't think the Lord can help us to overcome?

Axehead

I agree that out of the mouth there should not be blessing and cursing coming out. What comes out manifests what is within.

James 3:9-11
Therewith bless we God, even the Father; and therewith curse we men, which are made after the similitude of God.
Out of the same mouth proceedeth blessing and cursing. My brethren, these things ought not so to be.
Doth a fountain send forth at the same place sweet water and bitter?

What you are missing is that the lip service blessing of God along with judging men as unrighteous sinners based on works of lifestyle (perfection by the flesh), is the mixing of grace and works gospel you follow. You cannot mix grace and works (Rom 11:6). This is being lukewarm (Rev 3:16). A fountain does not send forth both sweet water (grace) and bitter (works).

Believe on Jesus and your faith is counted for righteousness.