1. Welcome to Christian Forums, a Christian Forum that recognizes that all Christians are a work in progress.

    You will need to register to be able to join in fellowship with Christians all over the world.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!

Featured First bishop at Rome, male or female

Discussion in 'Christian Debate Forum' started by 101G, Nov 7, 2017.

  1. 101G

    101G Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    5,821
    Likes Received:
    1,448
    Faith:
    Christian
    Country:
    United States
    Was the Church at Roman, under the direction of a female Bishop. Reading Roman Chapter 16, the Evidence seems to say yes. but why are there no recording of this beside the bible, if it's true.

    what do you say on this topic. opinions are good, but we want facts, back up by hard evidence, and let's have a good debate.

    I'm of the belief that our sister Phebe was the Church at Rome first Bishop.
     
  2. 101G

    101G Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    5,821
    Likes Received:
    1,448
    Faith:
    Christian
    Country:
    United States
    Who better qualified to Pastor the newly founded church at Rome by our brother Paul. the one who was a succourer of many, and of the apostle himself also. Yes, the deacon, the minister a servant of the church which is at Cenchrea, sent to Rome by Paul.
     
  3. 101G

    101G Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    5,821
    Likes Received:
    1,448
    Faith:
    Christian
    Country:
    United States
    Romans 16:1 & 2 "I commend unto you Phebe our sister, which is a servant of the church which is at Cenchrea: That ye receive her in the Lord, as becometh saints, and that ye assist her in whatsoever business she hath need of you: for she hath been a succourer of many, and of myself also.

    the word succourer reveals clearly as to what business she was to perform. the word chosen here by our Father, and the Lord Jesus,
    succourer: is G4368 προστάτις prostatis (pros-tat'-is) n.
    1. a patroness, i.e. assistant. it’s the feminine of a derivative of G4291, the male counter part. the derivative here is like saying Prophet, (male). Prophetess, (female)
    and what is G4291? Mickelson's Enhanced Strong's Dictionaries of the Greek and Hebrew Testaments
    G4291 προΐστημι proistemi (pro-iy'-stee-miy) v.
    1. to stand before.
    2. (in rank) to preside.
    3. (by implication) to practise.
    [from G4253 and G2476]
    KJV: maintain, be over, rule
    Root(s): G4253, G2476

    so our Sister was in a position to be rule over, as in OVERSEER?
    Thayer's Greek Definitions
    succourer
    Original: προστάτις
    - Transliteration: Prostatis
    - Phonetic: pros-tat'-is
    - Definition:
    1. a woman set over others
    2. a female guardian, protectress, patroness, caring for the affairs of others and aiding them with her resources
    - Origin: from a derivative of G4291
    - TDNT entry: None

    G4291 προΐστημι proistemi (pro-iy'-stee-miy) v.
    - Original: προΐ́στημι
    - Transliteration: Proistemi
    - Phonetic: pro-is'-tay-mee
    - Definition:
    1. to set or place before
    a. to set over
    b. to be over, to superintend, preside over
    c. to be a protector or guardian
    1. to give aid
    d. to care for, give attention to
    1. profess honest occupations
    - Origin: from G4253 and G2476
    - TDNT entry: 6:700,*

    Clearly our sister was in a leadership role.but definition b. above says is all "to superintend". according to Noah Webster's 1828 Dictionary of American English, to superintend is to rule, and definition #1. To govern; to control the will and actions of others, either by arbitrary power and authority, or by established laws. The emperors of the east rule their subjects without the restraints of a constitution. In limited governments, men are ruled by known laws.
    If a man know not how to rule his own house, how shall he take care of the church of God? 1 Tim 3. THIS IS IN DIRECT QUOTE FOR A BISHOP.

    clearly this woman is not just a Patrons as many have said, no, this woman is clearly in a Bishop Role at rome.
     
  4. ScottA

    ScottA Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    4,377
    Likes Received:
    2,338
    Faith:
    Christian
    Country:
    United States
    Shirley, you jest! :)
     
    Marymog and 101G like this.
  5. 101G

    101G Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    5,821
    Likes Received:
    1,448
    Faith:
    Christian
    Country:
    United States
    Just taking a wild shot.
     
  6. 101G

    101G Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    5,821
    Likes Received:
    1,448
    Faith:
    Christian
    Country:
    United States
    GINOLJC, Now the Key part in Our Sister Phebe taking the General oversight in Rome.

    #1. it start with the Apostle Paul commending, or approving her. Romans 16:1 "I commend unto you Phebe our sister, which is a servant of the church which is at Cenchrea". here, in this recommendation, her promotion at Rome was done by the help of other BISHOPS. supportive scripture, Romans 16:3 "Greet Priscilla and Aquila my helpers in Christ Jesus". why is this verse so important, because of the word "helpers" here. let's examine this word.
    Helpers G4904 συνεργός sunergos (sïn-er-ğos') adj.
    a co-laborer, i.e. coadjutor.
    KJV: companion in labour, (fellow-)helper(-labourer, -worker), labourer together with, workfellow

    if any one in the Roman catholic church, they should recognize this word "coadjutor". using dictionary.com it means,
    1. an assistant.
    2. an assistant to a bishop or other ecclesiastic.
    3. a bishop who assists another bishop, with the right of succession.

    there is our definition, #3. a bishop who assists another bishop, with the right of succession. two things to note here. A. Priscilla is a FEMALE Bishop herself. B. Priscilla and Aquila her husband help in the succession of our sister Phebe to the oversight work in Rome. now just in this one verse we see another female bishop.

    this is why the apostle Paul who is a Bishop himself, made this statement "my HELPERS" or coadjutor.

    so clearly we see the "right of succession" of our sister Phebe to the General oversight or the superintendency, to preside over the affairs of the Saints at Rome. from here, is the Organization of this newly formed church.
     
  7. 101G

    101G Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    5,821
    Likes Received:
    1,448
    Faith:
    Christian
    Country:
    United States
    According to Thayer's Greek Definitions, G4291 προΐστημι proistemi, this is the MALE counterpart to a Female succourer
    1. to set or place before
    a. to set over
    b. to be over, to superintend, preside over

    c. to be a protector or guardian
    1. to give aid
    d. to care for, give attention to
    1. profess honest occupations

    From the above two definition, #1a, and 1b, our sister Phebe is a female in the same position, or function as a male in the same position or function. Lets look at a bishop from the above two definitions.

    1a. to set over, scripture, 1 Corinthians 12:28 "And God hath set some in the church, first apostles, secondarily prophets, thirdly teachers, after that miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, governments, diversities of tongues”.
    question?, so where is the Bishop or the Pastor in this scripture? the Bishop/Pastor is in the apostle, the prophet, and the teacher. because the pastor is not a office, but a work. an office is not in the Hebrew mindset, but in western culture, or thinking, it is understood that way.

    1b. to be over, to superintend, preside over, scripture, Hebrews 13:17 "Obey them that have the rule over you, and submit yourselves: for they watch for your souls, as they that must give account, that they may do it with joy, and not with grief: for that is unprofitable for you”. Hebrews 13:7 "Remember them which have the rule over you, who have spoken unto you the word of God: whose faith follow, considering the end of their conversation”.
    1 Thessalonians 5:12 "And we beseech you, brethren, to know them which labour among you, and are over you in the Lord, and admonish you”.

    So a succourer, a female, in this case, WHO IS IN THE LORD, is one set over, rule, and preside over other. It also states, to superintend, and to care for, give attention to. Lets look at the bishop duties.

    Bishop: G1984 ἐπισκοπή episkope (e-piy-sko-pee') n.
    1. inspection (for relief).
    2. (by implication) superintendence.
    3. (specially) the Christian “episcopate.

    episcopate? the word means, BISHOP. a bishop is to a superintendence, just as our Sister in her counterpart role as a Female succourer.

    G4291 προΐστημι proistemi is to care for. Scripture, 1 Timothy 3:4 "One that ruleth well his own house, having his children in subjection with all gravity; 5 (For if a man know not how to rule his own house, how shall he take care of the church of God?).

    This woman have bishop written all over her. Lets look at the bishop in 1 Timothy 3:1 "This [is] a true saying, If a man desire the office of a bishop, he desireth a good work. so the Bishop office is a WORK. according to Vine's Expository Dictionary of New Testament Words concerning “office”, Noun, G4234 πρᾶξις praxis (prax`-is) n.
    1. practice
    2. (concretely) an act
    3. (by extension) a function
    [from G4238]
    KJV: deed, office, work

    so it's from,
    G4238 πράσσω prasso (pras'-so) v.
    1. to practice, i.e. perform repeatedly or habitually
    2. (by implication) to execute, accomplish, etc.
    3. (specially) to collect (dues), fare (personally)
    KJV: commit, deeds, do, exact, keep, require, use arts

    doing a deed" (akin to prasso, "to do or practice"), also denotes "an acting" or "function," translated "office" in Rom 12:4. See DEED. a deed is a work or Labor.

    conclusion, our Sister had a work, a deed, or a function to do in Rome. to be it's FIRST BISHOP.
     
  8. 101G

    101G Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    5,821
    Likes Received:
    1,448
    Faith:
    Christian
    Country:
    United States
    GINOLJC, to all.
    In verse 1 the apostle approves this woman to a leadership position by using the word “commend”, and that position is an elder position. Why do we say this?. verse 2 confirm this reasoning. a. she is to be “received in the Lord”. b. she is a succourer. lets look at each of these identifiers.
    a.“received in the Lord”. can we find this same language else where in the bible?. Philippians 2:28 "I sent him therefore the more carefully, that, when ye see him again, ye may rejoice, and that I may be the less sorrowful. 29 Receive him therefore in the Lord with all gladness; and hold such in reputation”.
    Commentary, John Gill's Exposition of the Entire Bible, Receive him therefore,.... Not only into their houses, where such as bring the doctrine of Christ should be admitted, and not others; but into their bosoms, into their hearts and affections, as he had reason to believe they would, and into their fellowship and communion, and to the exercise of his office among them, as their minister: and that, "for the Lord", as the Arabic version renders it; for his sake, because he was one that was put into the ministry by him, was called unto it, and qualified for it, and sent forth to minister in it by him; or in the name of the Lord, as an ambassador of his, as representing him, and as if he himself was present; for he that receives a minister of Christ, receives Christ himself; see Lu 10:16. STOP for a minute, this sound like what he, Paul, the apostle of Jesus Christ did to our sister Phebe. 1. As they the saints received him, now Phebe, “receive her in the Lord, as becometh saints”. 2. In the Lord. As he was qualified for it, so was she, “which is a servant of the church which is at Cenchrea”. She was a minister. 3. sent forth to minister in it by him, Phebe was sent, “I commend unto you Phebe our sister”. what role or function she used?.
    and to the exercise of this office among them, as their minister. “for she hath been a succourer of many, and of myself also”.

    plain ans simple, she was to be "received in the Lord" just as her male counter part was received in the same work.
     
  9. epostle1

    epostle1 Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    3,326
    Likes Received:
    499
    Faith:
    Christian
    Country:
    Canada
    You an isolate words and mix-match them to make them say what you want them to say, but there is not a shred of explicit scriptural evidence that Pheobe was ordained, and not a single Early Church Father made any mention of it. It is a modernist argument recently invented to justify ordaining women which is not in the Bible.

    I commend to you Phoebe our sister, who is (also) a minister of the church at Cenchreae,--Romans 16:1

    The above passage in Romans does indicate that a woman, Phoebe, was a deacon in the Church. (The word used in the original Greek text for "minister" is diakonos, from which we get the word "deacon".) However, the role of a deacon in the early church should not be understood as an ordained role similar to the diaconate role we have in the church today. Phoebe was a minister or servant who assisted the clergy in the liturgy, but was never ordained.

    John 20:22 – Jesus only breathed on the male apostles, the first bishops, giving them the authority to forgive and retain sins. In fact, the male priesthood of Christianity was a distinction from the priestesses of paganism that existed during these times. A female priesthood would be a reversion to non-Christian practices. The sacred tradition of a male priesthood has existed uncompromised in the Church for 2,000 years.

    Mark 3:13 – Jesus selected the apostles “as He desired,” according to His will, and not according to the demands of His culture. Because Jesus acted according to His will which was perfectly united to that of the Father, one cannot criticize Jesus’ selection of men to be His priests without criticizing God.

    Luke 2:36-37 – prophetesses, like Anna, were women who consecrated themselves to religious life, but were not ordained.

    Isaiah 3:12 – Isaiah complains that the priests of ancient Israel were having their authority usurped by women, and this was at the height of Israel’s covenant apostasy.

    Mark 16:9; Luke 7: 37-50; John 8:3-11 – Jesus allowed women to uniquely join in His mission, exalting them above cultural norms. His decision not to ordain women had nothing to do with culture. The Gospel writers are also clear that women participated in Jesus’ ministry and, unlike men, never betrayed Jesus. Women have always been held with the highest regard in the Church (e.g., the Church’s greatest saint and model of faith is a woman; the Church’s constant teaching on the dignity of motherhood; the Church’s understanding of humanity as being the Bride united to Christ, etc.).

    The first bishops in Rome were Peter and Paul, not Petrella and Paulette.
     
  10. 101G

    101G Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    5,821
    Likes Received:
    1,448
    Faith:
    Christian
    Country:
    United States
    First thanks for your response. I strongly disagree.
    #1. U said, "I mix-match words to make them say what you want them to say". I didn't write these dictionaries, and two show me where I made them fit to my opinion.
    #2. our Sister Phebe was ordained, see my post #6
    #3. U said, "but there is not a shred of explicit scriptural evidence that Pheobe was ordained, and not a single Early Church Father made any mention of it". well I have the original Early church father who wrote the Letter, the apostle Paul. it's right there in your bible, you got it too. the whole book, or letter to the saints Roman. see, we got the original.... (smile).
    well you got 1/2 of it right, MINISTER. then U said, "However, the role of a deacon in the early church should not be understood as an ordained role similar to the diaconate role we have in the church today". you are right about that, it's definitely not what we have in the church today.
    was these only who received the Holy Spirit? NO, Acts 2:39 "For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call". is God still calling today..... yes, is it only males?.
    1 Peter 2:9 "But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light". let's see if you're in the light or the dark. 2 Corinthians 5:16 & 17 "Wherefore henceforth know we no man after the flesh: yea, though we have known Christ after the flesh, yet now henceforth know we him no more. Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new". why? Galatians 3:27-29 "For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ. There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus. And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise".
    I must strongly disagree with this, 1 Corinthians 12:28 "And God hath set some in the church, first apostles, secondarily prophets, thirdly teachers, after that miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, governments, diversities of tongues". question, did the church STOP because the first apostle died out? NO then your statement don't hold water.
    ERROR on your part. women ruled over weak men who succumb to their Idol gods. there was nothing wrong with women in general only wicked one who lead weak-kneed men away from God.
    true, but the Gospel writers also wrote about woman who was in leadership positions or roles. and they preached, and taught the Gospel. so that's nothing new.
    Paul founded the church in Rome by long distance, which he did no get to until the near end of his life. and that long distance founding was by the letter he sent unto Rome by this newly elected Bishop Phebe.

    Look kepha31, let's not argue tit for tat, ok, we have enough of this all ready, but let's discuss. I ask you to refute anything I have said by scripture. not by yours or anyone else opinion, but by the word of God. that I'll respond to.

    be bless, and thanks for your post.
     
  11. BreadOfLife

    BreadOfLife Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    9,875
    Likes Received:
    1,131
    Faith:
    Christian
    Country:
    United States
    2 Tim 3:2-11 completely destroys your entire argument because it states that a Bishop must be a man.
    Paul also states in 1 Tim 2:12, that women should not teach or exercise authority over men.

    Case CLOSED.
     
    Marymog likes this.
  12. 101G

    101G Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    5,821
    Likes Received:
    1,448
    Faith:
    Christian
    Country:
    United States
    Oh NO, let's open the case. as a matter of fact is support my case. if any man?, was this church wide or was the apostle speaking to the men at the local church here where our brother Timothy was Pastoring at?.
     
  13. 101G

    101G Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    5,821
    Likes Received:
    1,448
    Faith:
    Christian
    Country:
    United States
    1 Timothy 3:2 "A bishop then must be blameless, the husband of one wife, vigilant, sober, of good behaviour, given to hospitality, apt to teach”.

    There are 6 qualification listed here for Bishop, or pastor. For Bishop, pastor are interchangeable. One of the qualification for a bishop/pastor/overseer is to be the husband of one wife.

    so my question is this, if a Bishop was to be the husband of One wife. how was Paul a bishop/Pastor/Overseer, and Teacher, for a bishop is apt to teach.

    so bol, tell us how the apostle Paul was a bishop and was not married.
     
  14. BreadOfLife

    BreadOfLife Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    9,875
    Likes Received:
    1,131
    Faith:
    Christian
    Country:
    United States
    You're really fishing here - but the Bible squashes your arguments.

    As I listed before - 1 Tim. 2:12 says emphatically:
    I do not permit a woman to teach or to assume authority over a man; she must be quiet.

    Paul isn't just speaking about the local Church where Timothy was.
     
    Marymog likes this.
  15. 101G

    101G Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    5,821
    Likes Received:
    1,448
    Faith:
    Christian
    Country:
    United States
    bol is you that ignorant? read that verse carefully, the word "WOMAN" here is
    G1135 γυνή gune (ǰ ï-nee') n.
    1. a woman.
    2. (specially) a wife.
    this scripture is refering to a "WIFE" not all women.... :D, want me to prove it?.
     
  16. BreadOfLife

    BreadOfLife Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    9,875
    Likes Received:
    1,131
    Faith:
    Christian
    Country:
    United States
    This is a silly argument when one reads the Scriptures with a knowledge of 1st century cultures.

    Paul isn't saying that a Bishop must be married. In the first century, polygamy was prevalent. Paul was simply saying that a Bishop could not be from a home where this was practiced. He must come from a home where there was only ONE wife.
     
  17. BreadOfLife

    BreadOfLife Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    9,875
    Likes Received:
    1,131
    Faith:
    Christian
    Country:
    United States
    NOT according to Strong's Greek Lexicon:

    1) a woman of any age, whether a virgin, or married, or a widow
    2) a wife 2a) of a betrothed woman


    A "wife" or "betrothed" woman are secondary definitions.
    The following NT verses use the SAME word for “Woman” - regardless of whether it is talking about a single woman or a married woman:
    Matt. 5:28
    Matt. 9:20
    Mark 5:25
    Luke 8:43
    Matt. 13:33
    Matt. 26:7
    Mark 14:3
    Mark 7:25
    Luke 4:26
    Luke 7:37
    Luke 10:38
    Luke 13:11
    Luke 13:21
    John 4:7
    John 4:27
    John 8:3
    John 16:21
     
    Last edited: Nov 9, 2017
  18. 101G

    101G Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    5,821
    Likes Received:
    1,448
    Faith:
    Christian
    Country:
    United States
    I'm glad you said that, "Paul was simply saying that a Bishop could not be from a home where this was practiced". ERROR, as U said, "first century, polygamy", correction, because of that polygamy the requirement was that a bishop was to be the husband of ONE WIFE, not two or three or more.... (smile). so your ERROR is corrected.

    now to address, 1 Timothy 2:12 "But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence". here the word "woman" G1135 γυνή gune (ǰ ï-nee') is wife, not WOMAN. for if the apostle would have used the Greek word FEMALE: G2338 θήλυς thelus (thee'-lïs) adj. then case close, but he did't. so how do we know that it's wife and not applying to all woman in General, the answer is found in 1 Timothy 2:15 "Notwithstanding she shall be saved in childbearing, if they continue in faith and charity and holiness with sobriety". the only "WOMAN" who suppose to be having children is a wife. so your explanation have been refuted. now case close on that.
     
  19. 101G

    101G Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    5,821
    Likes Received:
    1,448
    Faith:
    Christian
    Country:
    United States
    I will counter that,
    G2338 θήλυς thelus (thee'-lïs) adj.
    female.
    [from thele (the nipple)]
    KJV: female, woman
    Matt 19:4
    Mark 10:6
    Rom 1:26 & 27
    Gal 3:28

    so again your explanation hold no water.
     
  20. epostle1

    epostle1 Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    3,326
    Likes Received:
    499
    Faith:
    Christian
    Country:
    Canada
    Paul never married. A bishop to be husband of one wife means he cannot remarry as a widow because he then becomes married to the Church. The "first wife" is the "one wife". There cannot be a second wife for widowed bishops.

    1 Tim. 3:2 – Paul instructs that bishops must be married only once. Many Protestants use this verse to prove that the Church’s celibacy law is in error. But they are mistaken because this verse refers to bishops that were widowers. Paul is instructing that these widowers could not remarry. The verse also refers to those bishops who were currently married. They also could not remarry (in the Catholic Church’s Eastern rite, priests are allowed to marry; celibacy is only a disciplinary rule for the clergy of the Roman rite). Therefore, this text has nothing to do with imposing a marriage requirement on becoming a bishop.

    1 Cor. 7:27 – Paul teaches men that they should not seek marriage. In Paul’s opinion, marriage introduces worldly temptations that can interfere with one’s relationship with God, specifically regarding those who will become full-time ministers in the Church.

    1 Cor. 7:32-33, 38 – Paul recommends celibacy for full-time ministers in the Church so that they are able to focus entirely upon God and building up His kingdom. He “who refrains from marriage will do better.” He doesn't say marriage is bad. He says it is good. Good/better. Not bad/good.

    Matt. 19:11-12 – Jesus says celibacy is a gift from God and whoever can bear it should bear it. Jesus praises and recommends celibacy for full-time ministers in the Church. Because celibacy is a gift from God, those who criticize the Church’s practice of celibacy are criticizing God and this wonderful gift He bestows on His chosen ones.

    Matt. 19:29 – Jesus says that whoever gives up children for the sake of His name will receive a hundred times more and will inherit eternal life. Jesus praises celibacy when it is done for the sake of His kingdom.

    Matt. 22:30 – Jesus explains that in heaven there are no marriages. To bring about Jesus’ kingdom on earth, priests live the heavenly consecration to God by not taking a wife in marriage. This way, priests are able to focus exclusively on the spiritual family, and not have any additional pressures of the biological family (which is for the vocation of marriage). This also makes it easier for priests to be transferred to different parishes where they are most needed without having to worry about the impact of their transfer on wife and children.

    Celibacy is a choice men freely when they enter the seminary. It is for Catholics of the Latin rite and we don't have expectations on Protestants who do not share this disciplinary practice.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Nov 9, 2017
Loading...