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Five Verses...our beginning and our end

Discussion in 'Eschatology & Prophecy Forum' started by whirlwind, Dec 13, 2009.

  1. whirlwind

    whirlwind New Member

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    In the following five verses from Revelation there is a wealth of information and it contains our past, present and future. Our beginning and end.

    Revelation 12:1-5 And there appeared a great wonder in heaven; a woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and upon her head a crown of twelve stars: And she being with child cried, travailing in birth, and pained to be delivered. And there appeared another wonder in heaven; and behold, a great red dragon, having seven heads and ten horns, and seven crowns upon his heads. And his tail drew the third part of the stars of heaven, and did cast them to the earth: and the dragon stood before the woman which was ready to be delivered, for to devour her child as soon as it was born. And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and to His throne.

    • 1. What is meant by the "sun, moon, and stars?"
      2. What or who is "a great red dragon" with seven heads, horns and crowns?
      3. What or who is "his tail?"
      4. What or who are the "stars of heaven?"
      5. What is meant by being "cast to the earth?"
      6. Who is "the woman ready to be delivered?"
      7. How is "her child born?"
      8. Who is her "man child who was to rule all nations?"
      9. When and how is "her child caught up unto God, and to His throne?"
    This first post is about the first question:

    The Bible isn’t a history of the world but rather it is His-story. It is about Jesus and His family and how He pertains to the world. He is the sun, Light…Satan is the moon, darkness and we are the stars.

    • Genesis 1:16-18 And God made two great lights; the greater light to rule the day, and the lesser light to rule the night: He made the stars also. And God set them in the firmament of the heaven to give light upon the earth, And to rule over the day and over the night, and to divide the light from the darkness: and God saw that it was good.

      John 8:12 Then spake Jesus again unto them, saying, “I am the light of the world: he that followeth Me shall not walk in darkness, but shall have the light of life.”
    So, the “woman” is “clothed with the sun.” She is clothed with Christ.

    • 11 Corinthians 5:3 If so be that being clothed we shall not be found naked.

      Revelation 16:15 Behold, I come as a thief. Blessed is he that watcheth, and keepeth his garments, lest he walk naked, and they see his shame.
    The woman stands upon the moon….”the moon under her feet.” Why?

    • Genesis 3:13-16 And the LORD God said unto the serpent, “Because thou hast done this, thou art cursed above all cattle, and above every east of the field; upon thy belly shalt thou go, and dust shalt thou eat all the days of thy life: And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her Seed; It shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise His heel.” Unto the woman He said, “I will greatly multiply thy sorrow and thy conception; in sorrow thou shalt bring forth children; and thy desire shall be to thy husband and he shall rule over thee.”
    The serpent is the lesser light/darkness/moon. He bruised the heel of Christ but Christ in His family, Light in His children, will put “the moon under her feet.” The “head of the woman” is Christ. He is her Husband and “shall rule over” her/us.

    • 1 Corinthians 11:3 But I would have you know, that the head of every man is Christ; and the head of the woman is the man; and the head of Christ is God.

      Zechariah 14:4 And His feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east, and the mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west, and there shall be a very great valley; and half of the mountain shall remove toward the north, and half of it toward the south.
    The head of every man (child) is Christ. The head of the woman is the man (child) for the Spirit speaks through them to the woman. The Head of all is Christ and He is our Father. There is NO gender implied. There is neither male nor female in Christ. The feet of Christ, as shown in Zechariah....who are God's elect, will bruise the serpent in that day.

    • Galatians 3:28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.
    Lastly..."upon her head a crown of twelve stars."

    • Revelation 19:12 His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on His head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself.
    Above we saw who the Head of the woman is and that Head has twelve stars. Here we see that upon His head are "many crowns." The woman is Israel, all those that love Him, and her Head is Christ and His crowns are the twelve stars....Israel. One body of Christ!

    Next....the great red dragon.
     
  2. whirlwind

    whirlwind New Member

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    #2....What or who is the above "great red dragon" having seven heads, horns and crowns?

    Revelation 17:3 So he carried me away in the spirit into the wilderness: and I saw a woman sit upon a scarlet coloured beast, full of names of blasphemy, having seven heads and ten horns. ( 5 ) And upon her forehead was a name written, MYSTERY, BABYLON THE GREAT, THE MOTHER OF HARLOTS AND ABOMINATIONS OF THE EARTH.


    • Just as the woman Israel, is in the wilderness where she is fed [Rev.12:6 - 666] so is the beast where the "other woman" sits, the one that causes adultery/idolatry. Israel, the body of Christ, must choose which table she dines from...that of the beast or of God.
    17:8-9 The beast that thou sawest was, and is not; and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit, and go into perdition: and they that dwell on the earth shall wonder, whose names were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, when they behold the beast that was, and is not, and yet is. And here is the mind which hath wisdom. The seven heads are seven mountains, on which the woman sitteth.

    Revelation 13:1 And I stood upon the sand of the sea, and saw a beast rise up out of the sea, having seven heads and ten horns, and upon his horns ten crowns, and upon his heads the name of blasphemy. (4) And they worshipped the dragon which gave power unto the beast: and they worshipped the beast, saying, "Who is like unto the beast? who is able to make war with him?"

    • Notice the separation. There is "the dragon" and there is "the beast." Not one and the same here although the dragon gives power to the beast. The difference is this beast rises from the sea. The other mention, the one "thou sawest was, and is not; and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit, and go into perdition," ascends from the pit.

    13:11 And I beheld another beast coming up out of the earth; and he had two horns like a lamb, and he spake as a dragon.

    • So, we have two beasts…A scarlet beast from the earth and one from the sea and a great red dragon in heaven that gives power to one beast and speaks as himself in the other beast. The earth and sea are symbolic for masses of humanity. The two beasts arise from and are....people, led by the dragon.
      • Isaiah 27:1 In that day the LORD with his sore and great and strong sword shall punish leviathan the piercing serpent, even leviathan that crooked serpent; and He shall slay the dragon that is in the sea.

        Psalm 104:25-27 So is this great and wide sea, wherein are things creeping innumerable, both small and great beasts. There go the ships: there is that leviathan, whom Thou hast made to play therein. These wait all upon Thee; that Thou mayest give them their meat in due season.

        Genesis 2:7 And the LORD God formed man of the DUST OF THE GROUND, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.

        Genesis 3:14 And the LORD God said unto the serpent, Because thou hast done this, thou art cursed above all cattle, and above every beast of the field; upon thy belly shalt thou go, and DUST shalt thou eat all the days of thy life:

        Isaiah 65:25 The wolf and the lamb shall feed together, and the lion shall eat straw like the bullock: and DUST shall be the serpent's meat. They shall not hurt nor destroy in all My holy mountain, saith the LORD.
    • Leviathan, the Serpent, the Dragon, the Devil and Satan play in this sea of life....he dines on mankind, the dust of the ground. He rules the beast from the sea...he rules the beast from the earth....they are his.

    The question of this thread, is "#2....What or who is the above "great red dragon" having seven heads, horns and crowns?" He is Satan in heaven and he "has" the two beasts, of the sea and of the earth, under his control. He rules the worldly system, the first beast of Revelation and speaks for the second beast....a religious beast. He looks like the Lamb, looks like a Christian but....he speaks as the dragon.....with deception.

    Returning to the OP....the "great red dragon" wants the "woman clothed with the sun" to be his...to worship him instead of the Savior and he uses his two beasts to accomplish this. Will she or will she place him "under her feet?" He stands before her, Israel the church, now as she is travailing with the birth of the man child.

    Next....#3 What is the tail of the great red dragon?
     
  3. rob

    rob New Member

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  4. rob

    rob New Member

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    1. What is meant by the "sun, moon, and stars?"

    (Rev. 12:1) And a great sign was seen in heaven: a woman clothed with the sun, and the moon underneath her feet, and on her head a crown of twelve stars:

    The first section of this book, composed of the first eleven chapters, covers all things that occur from Christ's ascension to eternity. The second section, composed of the last eleven chapters, gives details of the important things and crucial matters occurring from the last three and a half years of the present age; which will be the period of the great tribulation, to the eternal age of the new heaven and the new earth. The first of the important things and crucial matters revealed in this section is a woman who brought forth a man-child.
    This woman is "clothed with the sun, and the moon underneath her feet, and on her head a crown of twelve stars." In Genesis 37:9, Joseph in his dream saw the sun, the moon, and the eleven stars, signifying his father, his mother, and his eleven brothers. There the sun, the moon, and the eleven stars, plus Joseph himself, signify the totality of God’s people on the earth. Based on the principle of that dream, the sun, the moon, and the twelve stars here must signify the totality of God’s people on earth, which is symbolized here by a woman. Most of her being is clothed with the sun.
    The sun signifies God’s people in the New Testament age. Before Christ came to the world, it was the dark night of the Old Testament age. When Christ as the rising sun came out from on high (Luke 1:78), the age of the sun came. Before that it was the age of the moon , which signifies God’s people in the Old Testament time. The moon is underneath the feet of the woman, for the age of the moon was the age of the law, which should not be exalted as the stars are. The stars, which signify the patriarchs, God’s people before the law was given, are on her head as a crown. All God’s people in these three ages, who together constitute this woman, are light bearers. Hence, she is the bright woman shining throughout all generations
     
  5. rob

    rob New Member

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    2. What or who is "a great red dragon" with seven heads, horns and crowns?
    3. What or who is "his tail?"

    1:3 And another sign was seen in heaven; and behold, there was a great red dragon, having seven heads and ten horns, and on his heads seven diadems. 1:4 And his tail drags away the third part of the stars of heaven, and he cast them to the earth. And the dragon stood before the woman who was about to bring forth, so that when she brings forth he might devour her child
    The child here, being a man-child (v. 5), signifies the stronger part of God's people. Throughout all generations there are some stronger ones among God's people. These are considered in the Bible a collective unit fighting the battle for God and bringing God's kingdom down to earth.

    The dragon signifes Satan (v. 9). In Gen. 3 Satan was a serpent, a smaller creature, a subtle one. Here he has become a dragon, much larger than a serpent and cruel. Hence, he is called "a great red dragon." Red here signifies the shedding of blood caused by Satan's murders (John 8:44).
    The seven heads and the ten horns are those of the beast, Antichrist (13:1). This indicates that the dragon and the beast are one and shows that Antichrist is the embodiment of Satan.
    The seven diadems indicate the glory of the seven Caesars; extraordinary kingship. Since each of these seven Caesars was one with Satan, each assumed deity, claimed to be God, and forced the people to worship him as God.
    The stars of heaven here signify the angels (JOb 38:7; Isaiah 14:12) The third part of the stars of heaven must be the fallen angels, who followed Satan in his rebellion against God. Satan drags them all away, and as the angels of Satan they will be cast to the earth with Satan (v. 9).
     
  6. rob

    rob New Member

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    * 5. What is meant by being "cast to the earth?"
    6. Who is "the woman ready to be delivered?"
    7. How is "her child born?"
    8. Who is her "man child who was to rule all nations?"
    9. When and how is "her child caught up unto God, and to His throne?"

    1: 5. And she brought forth a son, a man-child, who is to shepherd all the nations with an iron rod; and her child was caught up to God and to His throne.

    Satan and his angels will be cast to the earth. Hence at that time the earth will be filled with these fallen angels, who will damge the dwelling place of the people who rebel against God. The earth will thus become a dreadful place.
    That the dragon stood before the woman signifies that Satan is always against the people of God opposing them. From the time of Gen. 3:15 to this day, Satan, the ancient serpent, has been fighting continually against the woman with the intention of devouring her child.
    Brought forth here signifies resurrection, as in Acts 13:33-34. The man-child is composed of the overcoming saints who have died and been resurrected. This is proved by the words unto death in v. 11.
    In the Bible, woman signifes the weaker one and man the stronger one (1 Pet. 3:7). Hence, the man-child is to shepherd all the nations with an iron rod indicates the the man-child consists of the overcomers, as mentioned in 2:26-27.
    To be caught up is to be raptured. The rapture of the man-child differs from that of the majority of the believers, which is mentioned in 1 Thess. 4:17. There, the majority of the believers are raptured (1) to the air. (2) at the last trumpet (1 Cor. 15:52; 1 Thess. 4:16), which is the seventh trumpet (11:15). But here the man-child is raptured (1) to the throne of God, and (2) before the one thousand two humdred and sixty days, which is the time of the great tribulation of three and a half years (forty-two montths, v. 14; 13:5; 11:2), beginning from the sixth seal, before the fifth trumpet (9:1).


    The Greek word in Acts 8:39 and in 2 Cor. 12:2 is the same as in 1 Thessalonians 17 and means to be snatched up speedily and in a way that cannot be resisted. The mentioning here of the rapture of the believers at the Lord's coming here is in a general way, as a word of comfort. Details concerning this matter are revealed in other books of the New Testament, such as Matthew and Revelation. In Revelation 12:5, the man-child, i.e., the overcomers, is caught up, raptured, to the throne of God in the third heaven before the great tribulation, at the time of the Lord's coming (parousia)
     
  7. jerryjohnson

    jerryjohnson New Member

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    rob,
    You have been reading too many novels.
     
  8. Christina

    Christina New Member

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    Agreed Jerry :)

    Great post Whirlwind
     
  9. rob

    rob New Member

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    This response reminds me of an incident where I was hauled over by a police car very late at night following, late night fellowship with the saints. As I stepped from the car the two police officers called to me, "you are drunk man" , "You are drunk man"! I replied, That's funny , I have never drunk alcohol in my life, to which they angrily retorted, "Don't be funny with us". Hallellujah!, eventually, they left having established with me a good relationship, and after realizing they were totally wrong.
    I do not read novels, or newpapers, nor have I ever watched television, videos or movies, I realized at a young age, we have the choice as did Adam and Eve to eat from the Tree of knowledge, which puffs up or the Tree of life which humbles us.
    Many christians have scolded me and said they are unable to live without their television programs and videos, or their newspapers and other forms of entertainment.
    I am sure Jesus Christ desires to be our life, our living, our protection and our entertainment. Praise His wonderful and blessed name. This is the reason we are told, "Man shall not live by bread alone, but by EVERY WORD that porceeds out of the mouth of God". WE ARE WHAT WE EAT!

    How about refuting my post giving supporting scriptures?
     
  10. Christina

    Christina New Member

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    Well sense you seem to be a serious guy and want a serious answer, I will give it to you
    I found no reason to dispute you verse by verse
    once I got to the Rapture part it told me all I need to know . nothing personal. Just didn't see any point to again debating this fallacy. There are no scriptures about this to debate it just plain is not written.

    God never speaks of any Rapture before the tribulation he speaks only of
    those gathering to him at the 7th trump which is the End of this flesh age its after the tribulation
    and he is descending here to earth where he will reign as King of Kings. It says nothing about taking anyone anywhere.


    We are told

    3Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

    This is antichrist (satan) this man of sin he must be revealed first this is the tribulation

    4Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple
    of God, shewing himself that he is God.

    5Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things?

    So I didnt see much point as I have heard every argument there is for this Pre trib Rapture lie of men. 3Let no man deceive you by any means.
     
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