Flesh and Spirit part 1

[RichardBurger]

Flesh and Spirit:

I have been studying the difference between the flesh and the Spirit and would like to share what I understand about it.

In the scripture below we see that Jesus made a difference between the flesh and the Spirit in verse 6. It does not say the flesh is born again. We see that for everyone born of the spirit there are now two natures; a fleshly sinful nature and a spiritual nature. In Romans 7 we see these two natures struggling with each other.

John 3:5-6 NKJV
5 Jesus answered, "Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God.
6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.

In the scripture below we see Jesus describing the Spiritual nature of the child of God that has been reborn of the Holy Spirit.

John 3:7-8 NKJV
7 Do not marvel that I said to you, 'You must be born again.'
8 The wind blows where it wishes, and you hear the sound of it, but cannot tell where it comes from and where it goes. So is everyone who is born of the Spirit."

In the scriptures below we see that Paul is also saying that there are two natures to the child of God, one born of the flesh and one born of the Spirit of God. These two natures are always with a child of God and are always warring against each other.

Rom 7:14-20 NKJV
14 For we know that the law is spiritual, but I am carnal, sold under sin.
15 For what I am doing, I do not understand. For what I will to do, that I do not practice; but what I hate, that I do.
16 If, then, I do what I will not to do, I agree with the law that it is good.
17 But now, it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells in me.
18 For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh) nothing good dwells; for to will is present with me, but how to perform what is good I do not find.
19 For the good that I will to do, I do not do; but the evil I will not to do, that I practice. 20 Now if I do what I will not to do, it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells in me.

In the scripture below we see that flesh and blood will not enter heaven. Only the Spirit that has been born of God will enter heaven.

1 Cor 15:50 NKJV
50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; nor does corruption inherit incorruption.
NKJV

Corruption can not be made un-corrupted. So we must consider that the flesh can never be made Righteous or Holy. When the scriptures tell us we must put on righteousness, or put on Holiness, it is not talking about our efforts to make our flesh nature righteous or holy. It is saying that we must “put on Jesus” in the Spirit. As Paul said in the following scripture.

Col 1:19-23 NKJV
19 For it pleased the Father that in Him all the fullness should dwell,
20 and by Him to reconcile all things to Himself, by Him, whether things on earth or things in heaven, having made peace through the blood of His cross.
21 And you, who once were alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked works, yet now He has reconciled
22 in the body of His flesh through death, to present you holy, and blameless, and above reproach in His sight —
23 if indeed you continue in the faith, grounded and steadfast, and are not moved away from the hope of the gospel which you heard, which was preached to every creature under heaven, of which I, Paul, became a minister.

In the scriptures below we see that flesh and blood can never be made perfect, or righteous, or Holy, by the will and efforts of the flesh, period. The born again child of God, in the Spirit, is only righteous and Holy because they have been born again and placed “in Christ” by an operation of the Holy Spirit. They have put on Jesus and just as He was perfect in faith before God so are we perfect when we place our faith, trust, confidence and hope in Him.

Gal 3:3 NKJV
3 Are you so foolish? Having begun in the Spirit, are you now being made perfect by the flesh?

In the scriptures below we see that salvation (being born again in the Spirit) can only be accomplished by the will of God and He (God) will save all that receive Jesus as their savior. It is also clear that those that do not receive Jesus as their savior, do not have the right to become children of God.

John 1:10-13 NKJV
10 He was in the world, and the world was made through Him, and the world did not know Him.
11 He came to His own, and His own did not receive Him.
12 But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, to those who believe in His name:
13 who were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.


This writing is intended to help us understand the flesh nature and the Spirit nature of the child of God. It is not a writing that is meant to put down the efforts of the child of God to live a life that is pleasing to God.

Flesh and Spirit Part 1a:


We see in the scriptures below that the things done in the flesh do not profit the child of God.

John 6:63 NKJV

63 It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh profits nothing. The words that I speak to you are spirit, and they are life.
****

We can see below that the “new man” (born of the Holy Spirit) was not formed until Jesus was glorified. In other words their was no “new man” until after Jesus died on the cross and was raised from the dead.

John 7:37-39 NKJV
37 On the last day, that great day of the feast, Jesus stood and cried out, saying, "If anyone thirsts, let him come to Me and drink.
38 He who believes in Me, as the Scripture has said, out of his heart will flow rivers of living water."
39 But this He spoke concerning the Spirit, whom those believing in Him would receive; for the Holy Spirit was not yet given, because Jesus was not yet glorified.
***

We see below a promise made, to the children of God, that He would not leave them as orphans and that the Spirit would abide with the child of God forever.

John 14:16-18 NKJV
16 And I will pray the Father, and He will give you another Helper, that He may abide with you forever —
17 the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it neither sees Him nor knows Him; but you know Him, for He dwells with you and will be in you.
18 I will not leave you orphans; I will come to you.
***

We see below that it is the Holy Spirit that is a teacher to the child of God. It is also seen that the purpose of the child of God is to glorify Jesus, not man.

John 16:12-15 NKJV
12 "I still have many things to say to you, but you cannot bear them now.
13 However, when He, the Spirit of truth, has come, He will guide you into all truth; for He will not speak on His own authority, but whatever He hears He will speak; and He will tell you things to come.
14 He will glorify Me, for He will take of what is Mine and declare it to you.
15 All things that the Father has are Mine. Therefore I said that He will take of Mine and declare it to you.
***

We see below that if a person does not have the Holy Spirit in their hearts they are not children of God. It also says that since the Spirit of God dwells in a child of God that child is righteous because the Spirit is righteous. It also says that the Holy Spirit will change and raise a child of God’s mortal body.

Rom 8:9-11 NKJV
9 But you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. Now if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he is not His.
10 And if Christ is in you, the body is dead because of sin, but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.
11 But if the Spirit of Him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, He who raised Christ from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through His Spirit who dwells in you.
***

We see below that a child of God puts to death the deeds of the flesh. This does not mean the children of God can, by their efforts, stop sinning in the flesh. Nor does it mean flesh can become sinless. The child of God mortifies the deeds of the flesh; he/she sees the evil in the heart and are humbled before God because of them. The child of God is depending on God‘s grace to save him/her from their sinful flesh. To prove to the child of God that He (God) has done this He has given the children of God His Holy Spirit in their hearts to bare witness that they are children of God.

Rom 8:12-17 NKJV
12 Therefore, brethren, we are debtors — not to the flesh, to live according to the flesh.
13 For if you live according to the flesh you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body, you will live.
14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, these are sons of God.
15 For you did not receive the spirit of bondage again to fear, but you received the Spirit of adoption by whom we cry out,"Abba, Father."
16 The Spirit Himself bears witness with our spirit that we are children of God,
17 and if children, then heirs — heirs of God and joint heirs with Christ, if indeed we suffer with Him, that we may also be glorified together.
***

We see below that the child of God knows the gift that God has given them.

1 Cor 2:10-12 NKJV
10 But God has revealed them to us through His Spirit. For the Spirit searches all things, yes, the deep things of God.
11 For what man knows the things of a man except the spirit of the man which is in him? Even so no one knows the things of God except the Spirit of God.
12 Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the Spirit who is from God, that we might know the things that have been freely given to us by God.
***

We see below a statement that is often ignored. Many say they believe in God and the scriptures but that is not the same as calling Him their Lord. No one, without the Holy Spirit, can really call Jesus their Lord.

1 Cor 12:3 NKJV
3 Therefore I make known to you that no one speaking by the Spirit of God calls Jesus accursed, and no one can say that Jesus is Lord except by the Holy Spirit.
***

I included this scripture to show the gifts of the Holy Spirit.

1 Cor 12:4-11 NKJV
4 There are diversities of gifts, but the same Spirit.
5 There are differences of ministries, but the same Lord.
6 And there are diversities of activities, but it is the same God who works all in all.
7 But the manifestation of the Spirit is given to each one for the profit of all:
8 for to one is given the word of wisdom through the Spirit, to another the word of knowledge through the same Spirit,
9 to another faith by the same Spirit, to another gifts of healings by the same Spirit,
10 to another the working of miracles, to another prophecy, to another discerning of spirits, to another different kinds of tongues, to another the interpretation of tongues.
11 But one and the same Spirit works all these things, distributing to each one individually as He wills.
***

In the verses below we again see that there is a difference between the sinful flesh and the “born again of the spirit” child of God. It is further proof that we can do nothing to improve the sinful flesh and that the children of God want to be free from it. It also states the child of God is confident because of the Holy Spirit that is in their hearts and they know they have been set free of their sinful flesh that condemns them.

2 Cor 5:1-8 NKJV
1 For we know that if our earthly house, this tent, is destroyed, we have a building from God, a house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens.
2 For in this we groan, earnestly desiring to be clothed with our habitation which is from heaven,
3 if indeed, having been clothed, we shall not be found naked.
4 For we who are in this tent groan, being burdened, not because we want to be unclothed, but further clothed, that mortality may be swallowed up by life.
5 Now He who has prepared us for this very thing is God, who also has given us the Spirit as a guarantee.
6 So we are always confident, knowing that while we are at home in the body we are absent from the Lord.
7 For we walk by faith, not by sight.
8 We are confident, yes, well pleased rather to be absent from the body and to be present with the Lord.
***

The children of God set their minds on the things of God continuously. Their hope and desires are in the Spirit and they are not under the law that governs the flesh.

Gal 5:16-18 NKJV
16 I say then: Walk in the Spirit, and you shall not fulfill the lust of the flesh.
17 For the flesh lusts against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh; and these are contrary to one another, so that you do not do the things that you wish.
18 But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the law.
***

The child of God practices righteousness when they place their faith, trust, confidence and hope in Jesus’ work on the cross. It should be self evident that the scripture defines two sets of people; one of unbelieving flesh and one that has been born of God. In verse 9 we see a bold statement that the child of God (born of the Spirit) cannot sin because the child is born of God. Many cannot resolve this. The theme is carried over in 1 John 5:18 below.

1 John 3:7-9 NKJV
7 Little children, let no one deceive you. He who practices righteousness is righteous, just as He is righteous.
8 He who sins is of the devil, for the devil has sinned from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that He might destroy the works of the devil.
9 Whoever has been born of God does not sin, for His seed remains in him; and he cannot sin, because he has been born of God.

1 John 5:18 NKJV
18 We know that whoever is born of God does not sin; but he who has been born of God keeps himself, and the wicked one does not touch him.
***

Since flesh and blood will perish in a grave we are not to live our lives in the flesh as if it counts for much. How can a person do that? By constantly knowing that they are now a child of God and can dismiss the deeds of the body as if the body is already dead. As Paul said, “he had no confidence in the flesh“.

Phil 3:2-3 NKJV
2 Beware of dogs, beware of evil workers, beware of the mutilation!
3 For we are the circumcision, who worship God in the Spirit, rejoice in Christ Jesus, and have no confidence in the flesh,

Rom 7:25 NKJV
25 I thank God — through Jesus Christ our Lord! So then, with the mind I myself serve the law of God, but with the flesh the law of sin.

 

[veteran]

Excellent job, but I offer something to consider about the mortal body idea...

We see below that if a person does not have the Holy Spirit in their hearts they are not children of God. It also says that since the Spirit of God dwells in a child of God that child is righteous because the Spirit is righteous. It also says that the Holy Spirit will change and raise a child of God’s mortal body.

Rom 8:9-11 NKJV
9 But you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. Now if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he is not His.
10 And if Christ is in you, the body is dead because of sin, but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.
11 But if the Spirit of Him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, He who raised Christ from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through His Spirit who dwells in you.
***

What exactly is meant by that "mortal bodies"?

1 Cor 15:53-54
53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.
(KJV)

Mortal flesh cannot put on immortality, since Paul stated flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God. So what is that "this mortal" which Paul is pointing to? It's our soul which is mortal until it becomes a "new creature" (creation) by The Holy Spirit by believing on The Father through Christ Jesus.

The "incorruption" part is the "spiritual body" Paul mentioned in that chapter, the "image of the heavenly".

But the "this mortal" part is about something else other than flesh.


Luke 17:20-21
20 And when He was demanded of the Pharisees, when the kingdom of God should come, He answered them and said, "The kingdom of God cometh not with observation:
21 Neither shall they say, 'Lo here! or, lo there!' for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you."
(KJV)

That word "within" is Greek 'entos', which means 'inside'.

This is why our Lord Jesus would say the kingdom of God is 'inside' ("within") us. It's about our spirit and soul that's inside our flesh being raised separate from our flesh body. This is why Eccl.12:5-7 reveals when the "silver cord" is loosed, our flesh body goes back to the earth where it came from, and our spirit goes back to God Who gave it. The fact that "silver cord" exists, and must be severed for that to happen, supports this whole matter about the difference between flesh and spirit.

 

[RichardBurger]

Excellent job, but I offer something to consider about the mortal body idea...




What exactly is meant by that "mortal bodies"?

1 Cor 15:53-54
53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.
(KJV)

Mortal flesh cannot put on immortality, since Paul stated flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God. So what is that "this mortal" which Paul is pointing to? It's our soul which is mortal until it becomes a "new creature" (creation) by The Holy Spirit by believing on The Father through Christ Jesus.

The "incorruption" part is the "spiritual body" Paul mentioned in that chapter, the "image of the heavenly".

But the "this mortal" part is about something else other than flesh.


Luke 17:20-21
20 And when He was demanded of the Pharisees, when the kingdom of God should come, He answered them and said, "The kingdom of God cometh not with observation:
21 Neither shall they say, 'Lo here! or, lo there!' for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you."
(KJV)

That word "within" is Greek 'entos', which means 'inside'.

This is why our Lord Jesus would say the kingdom of God is 'inside' ("within") us. It's about our spirit and soul that's inside our flesh being raised separate from our flesh body. This is why Eccl.12:5-7 reveals when the "silver cord" is loosed, our flesh body goes back to the earth where it came from, and our spirit goes back to God Who gave it. The fact that "silver cord" exists, and must be severed for that to happen, supports this whole matter about the difference between flesh and spirit.

You said: "But the "this mortal" part is about something else other than flesh."

Why do you wish to say this? Mortal is the opposite of immortal. Look it up in the dictionary and accept it as it states the facts of the words. In Scripture mortal always indicates the coruptable flesh that dies. I see no rweason to make these words mean anything else.

Thanks for the reply.

 

[veteran]

You said: "But the "this mortal" part is about something else other than flesh."

Why do you wish to say this? Mortal is the opposite of immortal. Look it up in the dictionary and accept it as it states the facts of the words. In Scripture mortal always indicates the coruptable flesh that dies. I see no rweason to make these words mean anything else.

Thanks for the reply.

That would have to be a Greek dictionary brother, for the four words "corruptible", "incorruption", "mortal", "immortality" which Apostle Paul used in 1 Cor.15:53-54 are four different Greek words.

I know, I know, it is popularly thought that Paul was speaking of only a single change in the 1 Cor.15:53-54 Scripture. That's how the majority of pastors have interpreted it. Popularity doesn't always mean accuracy though.

Paul is NOT pointing to a flesh body with "this mortal" part. He already pointed to the flesh body in that verse with the Greek word for "corruptible".

1 Cor 15:53
53 For this corruptible (5349) must put on incorruption (861), and this mortal (2349) must put on immortality (110).
(KJV)


"corruptible" = phthartos (decayed, perishable - 5349)
"incorruption" = aphthrsia (incorruptibility, unending existence - 861)
"mortal" = thnetos (liable to die - 2349)
"immortality" = athanasia (deathlessness - 110)

Don't forget the conjunction "and" that exists in-between those parts that shows Paul was speaking about two separate operations.

That there's TWO changes, the next verse makes more distinct in the KJV English...

1 Cor 15:54
54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, 'Death is swallowed up in victory.'
(KJV)

How can I be sure this is the meaning?

1. - It's because our Lord Jesus showed in John 5:29 that all the dead will be resurrected at His coming, either unto the "resurrection of life" or to the "resurrection of damnation". That means the wicked are also going to be changed to the resurrection type body at Christ's coming.

2. - Per Rev.20 about the "second death", we know the wicked will still be subject to that, even while in their resurrected bodies. So how is that, for it has to mean they have something that is still 'mortal'. We CANNOT say they still have a flesh body of corruption in that time, for that would be to go directly against what Christ Jesus said in John 5:29 about the "resurrection of damnation" that is to also happen at His coming.

Now if you're on the 'dead in the ground' theory of man that says our spirit is literally asleep in the casket with our dead flesh body, both to be raised at Christ's coming, then I can see how you would want to deny that Scripture evidence I gave, especially John 5:29 about the two different types of resurrection that will occur at Christ's return. But doing that would be defaulting to a doctrine of men instead of heeding the Scripture. Your choice.

 

[Angelina]

Well said...guys!

I would like to add these scriptures also...:)

1 Thessalonians 5:23
Now may the God of peace Himself sanctify you completely; and may your whole spirit, soul, and body be preserved blameless at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.

Before being born again, we were soul first...functioning out of our bodies, with a spirit.

Romans 8:5-8
[sup]5[/sup] For those who live according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who live according to the Spirit, the things of the Spirit. [sup]6[/sup] For to be carnally minded is death, but to be spiritually minded is life and peace. [sup]7[/sup] Because the carnal mind is enmity against God; for it is not subject to the law of God, nor indeed can be.[sup]8[/sup] So then, those who are in the flesh cannot please God. enmity against God; for it is not subject to the law of God, nor indeed can be.

When we become born again [of the Holy Spirit], we became spirit first...with a soul and a body that has became the temple of the living God.

1 Corinthians 6:19
Or do you not know that your body is the temple of the Holy Spirit who is in you, whom you have from God, and you are not your own?

Romans 8:16
The Spirit Himself bears witness with our spirit that we are children of God,


Be Blessed!!!

 

[jiggyfly]

That would have to be a Greek dictionary brother, for the four words "corruptible", "incorruption", "mortal", "immortality" which Apostle Paul used in 1 Cor.15:53-54 are four different Greek words.

I know, I know, it is popularly thought that Paul was speaking of only a single change in the 1 Cor.15:53-54 Scripture. That's how the majority of pastors have interpreted it. Popularity doesn't always mean accuracy though.

Paul is NOT pointing to a flesh body with "this mortal" part. He already pointed to the flesh body in that verse with the Greek word for "corruptible".

1 Cor 15:53
53 For this corruptible (5349) must put on incorruption (861), and this mortal (2349) must put on immortality (110).
(KJV)


"corruptible" = phthartos (decayed, perishable - 5349)
"incorruption" = aphthrsia (incorruptibility, unending existence - 861)
"mortal" = thnetos (liable to die - 2349)
"immortality" = athanasia (deathlessness - 110)

Don't forget the conjunction "and" that exists in-between those parts that shows Paul was speaking about two separate operations.

That there's TWO changes, the next verse makes more distinct in the KJV English...

1 Cor 15:54
54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, 'Death is swallowed up in victory.'
(KJV)

How can I be sure this is the meaning?

1. - It's because our Lord Jesus showed in John 5:29 that all the dead will be resurrected at His coming, either unto the "resurrection of life" or to the "resurrection of damnation". That means the wicked are also going to be changed to the resurrection type body at Christ's coming.

2. - Per Rev.20 about the "second death", we know the wicked will still be subject to that, even while in their resurrected bodies. So how is that, for it has to mean they have something that is still 'mortal'. We CANNOT say they still have a flesh body of corruption in that time, for that would be to go directly against what Christ Jesus said in John 5:29 about the "resurrection of damnation" that is to also happen at His coming.

Now if you're on the 'dead in the ground' theory of man that says our spirit is literally asleep in the casket with our dead flesh body, both to be raised at Christ's coming, then I can see how you would want to deny that Scripture evidence I gave, especially John 5:29 about the two different types of resurrection that will occur at Christ's return. But doing that would be defaulting to a doctrine of men instead of heeding the Scripture. Your choice.

Quick question Veteran, you dont' see Paul when saying "phthartos" and "thnētos" as referring to the same thing after all they are both adjectives aren't they?

 

[RichardBurger]

veteran said;
“Now if you're on the 'dead in the ground' theory of man that says our spirit is literally asleep in the casket with our dead flesh body, both to be raised at Christ's coming, then I can see how you would want to deny that Scripture evidence I gave, especially John 5:29 about the two different types of resurrection that will occur at Christ's return. But doing that would be defaulting to a doctrine of men instead of heeding the Scripture. Your choice.

My reply: I never indicated my position or idea about this but it seem that for you to argue you wish to have me saying it. I never said, nor do I believe, that the spirit is asleep in the casket - that idea came from you.

When God made man he took material from the earth (corruptible) and breathed life into it and man became a living SOUL.

As I see it, my Soul is ME, my thoughts, hopes and desires. When Paul talks of living in the flesh or the spirit it is the Soul that is living in the flesh or the spirit.

In Jesus’ story of the rich man and the beggar they both went to Sheol and it seems that Sheol is divided into two parts, a paradise and a hot place. IMHO it is their Soul that went to Sheol, the body of flesh went to the grave.

We know from scriptures that the Soul that sins cannot enter into heaven. Therefore a person must be REBORN of the Holy Spirit. Now the Soul that has not died in the flesh lives in two places, the flesh and the Spirit and it lives in both with regularity (Romans 7).

When a child of God dies the part that was lived in the flesh will be burned up but the part that was lived in the Spirit will go to heaven because it has been born of the Holy Spirit. --- So now there is another question, how does one live in the Spirit? One lives in the Spirit by faith in the work of Jesus on the cross, His shed blood.

Now for the sake of argument, in John 3:6
6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
NKJV

Jesus only mentioned two and that is what I did too.

 

[veteran]

Quick question Veteran, you dont' see Paul when saying "phthartos" and "thnētos" as referring to the same thing after all they are both adjectives aren't they?

How do we know Paul was not using those words as mere adjectives? It's because of how he applies them to the subject of the resurrection, and what it is. He's using them to define real conditions regarding our physical and spiritual makeup God created us with, flesh, soul, and spirit, like Angelina showed from 1 Thess.5:23, remember? We are not made up of just a flesh body.

 

[veteran]

veteran said;
“Now if you're on the 'dead in the ground' theory of man that says our spirit is literally asleep in the casket with our dead flesh body, both to be raised at Christ's coming, then I can see how you would want to deny that Scripture evidence I gave, especially John 5:29 about the two different types of resurrection that will occur at Christ's return. But doing that would be defaulting to a doctrine of men instead of heeding the Scripture. Your choice.

My reply: I never indicated my position or idea about this but it seem that for you to argue you wish to have me saying it. I never said, nor do I believe, that the spirit is asleep in the casket - that idea came from you.

I didn't say you held that idea for sure, but only suggested that you might have. There are many here that have and do hold to that idea of men which prevents them from understanding this subject of 1 Cor.15.

When God made man he took material from the earth (corruptible) and breathed life into it and man became a living SOUL.

As I see it, my Soul is ME, my thoughts, hopes and desires. When Paul talks of living in the flesh or the spirit it is the Soul that is living in the flesh or the spirit.

That's what Eccl.12 shows, and I agree.

In Jesus’ story of the rich man and the beggar they both went to Sheol and it seems that Sheol is divided into two parts, a paradise and a hot place. IMHO it is their Soul that went to Sheol, the body of flesh went to the grave.

We know from scriptures that the Soul that sins cannot enter into heaven. Therefore a person must be REBORN of the Holy Spirit. Now the Soul that has not died in the flesh lives in two places, the flesh and the Spirit and it lives in both with regularity (Romans 7).

When a child of God dies the part that was lived in the flesh will be burned up but the part that was lived in the Spirit will go to heaven because it has been born of the Holy Spirit. --- So now there is another question, how does one live in the Spirit? One lives in the Spirit by faith in the work of Jesus on the cross, His shed blood.

Now for the sake of argument, in John 3:6
6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
NKJV

Jesus only mentioned two and that is what I did too.

Those two are also what Paul is speaking about in 1 Cor.15...

corruptible (flesh body) must put on incorruption (spiritual body) - one change, which is the resurrection to "the image of the heavenly". The "rich man" of Luke 16 had this too, even in hell. These are still subject to the "second death".

this mortal (mortal soul) must put on immortality (immortal soul) - second change, which is only of "the first resurrection" unto eternal Life through Christ Jesus by The Holy Spirit. These will not still be subject to the "second death" of Rev.20.

It should be obvious that the "spiritual body" or "image of the heavenly" does not mean automatic Salvation through Christ Jesus, because the fallen angels have that kind of body image in the heavenly also while being subject to the "second death" (lake of fire prepared for Satan and his angels). Our Lord Jesus did say that in the resurrection, they are as the angels of God in Heaven (Matt.22:30; Mark 12:25).

Maybe I need to start a thread just on the idea of the 'spiritually dead', like the "rich man" of Luke 16. That's actually how the Rev.20:5 verse about the "dead" is meant. Those are of the "resurrection of damnation" at Christ's coming. All peoples alive on earth when Christ comes and that change at the twinkling of an eye on the last trump happens will be changed to a resurrection body, the image of the heavenly. That includes the wicked also, which is what our Lord showed in John 5:29.

 

[Angelina]

When God made man he took material from the earth (corruptible) and breathed life into it and man became a living SOUL.

As I see it, my Soul is ME, my thoughts, hopes and desires. When Paul talks of living in the flesh or the spirit it is the Soul that is living in the flesh or the spirit.

Romans 7
21 I find then a law, that evil is present with me, the one who wills to do good. 22 For I delight in the law of God according to the inward man. 23 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members. 24 O wretched man that I am! Who will deliver me from this body of death? 25 I thank God—through Jesus Christ our Lord! So then, with the mind I myself serve the law of God, but with the flesh the law of sin.

I agree that Paul was struggling here between soul and Spirit. His conclusion was that his mind served God but his flesh (soul) served the law of sin....This is a period of sanctification that we all struggle with, particularly as new believers.

Further on he says....

Romans 8
1 There is therefore now no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus, who do not walk according to the flesh, but according to the Spirit. 2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has made me free from the law of sin and death. 3 For what the law could not do in that it was weak through the flesh, God did by sending His own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, on account of sin: He condemned sin in the flesh, 4 that the righteous requirement of the law might be fulfilled in us who do not walk according to the flesh but according to the Spirit. 5 For those who live according to the flesh [G4561] set their minds on the things of the flesh[G4561], but those who live according to the Spirit, the things of the Spirit. 6 For to be carnally [G4561] minded is death, but to be spiritually[G4151] minded is life and peace. 7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God; for it is not subject to the law of God, nor indeed can be. 8 So then, those who are in the flesh cannot please God.

Here, I believe is the transforming part with the aide of the Holy Spirit...

9 But you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. Now if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he is not His. 10 And if Christ is in you, the body is dead because of sin, but the Spirit is life because of righteousness. 11 But if the Spirit of Him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, He who raised Christ from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through His Spirit who dwells in you.

5 For those who live according to the flesh[G4561] set their minds on the things of the flesh [G4561], but those who live according to the Spirit, the things of the Spirit. 6 For to be carnally[G4561] minded is death, but to be spiritually [G4151] minded is life and peace.

G4561 sarx - flesh
Probably from the base of G4563; flesh (as stripped of the skin), that is, (strictly) the meat of an animal (as food), or (by extension) the body (as opposed to the soul (or spirit), or as the symbol of what is external, or as the means of kindred, or (by implication) human nature (with its frailties (physically or morally) and passions), or (specifically) a human being (as such): - carnal (-ly, + -ly minded), flesh ([-ly]).

G4561 sarx - Carnally
Probably from the base of G4563; flesh (as stripped of the skin), that is, (strictly) the meat of an animal (as food), or (by extension) the body (as opposed to the soul (or spirit), or as the symbol of what is external, or as the means of kindred, or (by implication) human nature (with its frailties (physically or morally) and passions), or (specifically) a human being (as such): - carnal (-ly, + -ly minded), flesh ([-ly]).

G5427 phronēma - minded
From G5426; (mental) inclination or purpose: - (be, + be carnally, + be spiritually) mind (-ed).

G4151 pneuma -spiritually
From G4154; a current of air, that is, breath (blast) or a breeze; by analogy or figuratively a spirit, that is, (human) the rational soul, (by implication) vital principle, mental disposition, etc., or (superhuman) an angel, daemon, or (divine) God, Christ’s spirit, the Holy spirit: - ghost, life, spirit (-ual, -ually), mind. Compare G5590.

We know from scriptures that the Soul that sins cannot enter into heaven. Therefore a person must be REBORN of the Holy Spirit. Now the Soul that has not died in the flesh lives in two places, the flesh and the Spirit and it lives in both with regularity (Romans 7).

During the period of our personal sanctification, the Holy Spirit helps us in the process of walking in the Spirit and not in our flesh. Sometimes it can be on-going.

Galations 5
16 I say then: Walk in the Spirit, and you shall not fulfill the lust of the flesh. 17 For the flesh lusts against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh; and these are contrary to one another, so that you do not do the things that you wish. 18 But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the law.


1 Thessalonians 5:23
Now may the God of peace Himself sanctify you completely; and may your whole spirit, soul, and body be preserved blameless at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.

G4151 pneuma - spirit
From G4154; a current of air, that is, breath (blast) or a breeze; by analogy or figuratively a spirit, that is, (human) the rational soul, (by implication) vital principle, mental disposition, etc., or (superhuman) an angel, daemon, or (divine) God, Christ’s spirit, the Holy spirit: - ghost, life, spirit (-ual, -ually), mind. Compare G5590.

G5590 psuchē - soul
From G5594; breath, that is, (by implication) spirit, abstractly or concretely (the animal sentient principle only; thus distinguished on the one hand from G4151, which is the rational and immortal soul; and on the other from G2222, which is mere vitality, even of plants: these terms thus exactly correspond respectively to the Hebrew [H5315], [H7307] and [H2416]: - heart (+ -ily), life, mind, soul, + us, + you.

G4983 sōma - body
From G4982; the body (as a sound whole), used in a very wide application, literally or figuratively: - bodily, body, slave.

Amen and blessings!!!

 

[RichardBurger]

Back to the subject of the thread.

Flesh and Spirit part 2:

In the scripture below we see that if you set your mind on the flesh you can not please God.

Romans 8:7-16 NKJV
7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God; for it is not subject to the law of God, nor indeed can be.
8 So then, those who are in the flesh cannot please God.
9 But you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. Now if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he is not His.

NOTE: According to what I read in the scriptures the sinful nature is dead, buried with Christ. The spiritual nature is born of God and cannot sin. In the scripture below we see that if you set your mind on Jesus you condemn sins of the flesh.

10 And if Christ is in you, the body is dead because of sin, but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.

11 But if the Spirit of Him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, He who raised Christ from the dead will (will = future tense) also give life to your mortal bodies through His Spirit who dwells in you. (who dwells in you is present tense)

Note: Does verse 11 above mean that He changes the body of sin or does it indicate that He will raise up these bodies after they have died?

Sonship Through the Spirit
12 Therefore, brethren, we are debtors — not to the flesh, to live according to the flesh.

13 For if you live according to the flesh you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body, you will live.

14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, these are sons of God.
15 For you did not receive the spirit of bondage again to fear, but you received the Spirit of adoption by whom we cry out,"Abba, Father."
16 The Spirit Himself bears witness with our spirit that we are children of God,

NOTE: Since we know that the we still sin, and will sin as long as we live in these bodies, how does the scriptures above effect us?

*****

Seems to me that “”if”” Christians are so concerned and worried about the sins in their lives they are living in the flesh and cannot please God. Why, because they do not believe God has already dealt with their sins. In other words they do not believe (have faith) that what Jesus did on the cross covers their sins. There is no peace and joy when living in the flesh.

Seems to me that “”if”” Christians are living in the Spirit they will KNOW that their sins of the flesh have already been dealt with by the shed blood of Jesus Christ on the cross and will not be so concerned about them. They will have peace with God and be joyful. These fully understand the wonderful gift God has given them.

My conclusion: Walking in faith, trust, confidence and hope in what Jesus did on the cross is walking in the Spirit. --- Those walking in the flesh are concerned about their sins as if they have to do something about them. This ignores the gift of salvation and makes it something they must earn and that does not please God because it diminishes the work of Jesus on the cross.

John 12:25-26 NKJV
25 He who loves his life will lose it, and he who hates his life in this world will keep it for eternal life.
26 If anyone serves Me, let him follow Me; and where I am, there My servant will be also. If anyone serves Me, him My Father will honor.
NKJV

NOTE: It appears to me that those who are concerned with their lives in this world, making a show of their religious endeavors, obviously love their lives in this world. However, I feel that those who look into their own hearts and hate the sin they see there and turn to Jesus will have eternal life.

 

[veteran]

My conclusion: Walking in faith, trust, confidence and hope in what Jesus did on the cross is walking in the Spirit. --- Those walking in the flesh are concerned about their sins as if they have to do something about them. This ignores the gift of salvation and makes it something they must earn and that does not please God because it diminishes the work of Jesus on the cross.

John 12:25-26 NKJV
25 He who loves his life will lose it, and he who hates his life in this world will keep it for eternal life.
26 If anyone serves Me, let him follow Me; and where I am, there My servant will be also. If anyone serves Me, him My Father will honor.
NKJV

NOTE: It appears to me that those who are concerned with their lives in this world, making a show of their religious endeavors, obviously love their lives in this world. However, I feel that those who look into their own hearts and hate the sin they see there and turn to Jesus will have eternal life.

Some of that thinking is totally un-Biblical. You're very close to preaching the 'once saved, always saved' doctrine of men.

Phil 2:12
12 Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.
(KJV)

That doesn't meant we can't have joy in The Lord. It does mean we are to be responsible, sincere, and serious regarding sin. It means to repent of our on-going sins like John showed in 1 John 1. As a matter of fact, our Lord Jesus gave several warnings about a believer that falls away from Him to a life of sin being joined with the wicked in the "outer darkness" when He returns.

In Hebrews 6 Paul showed how a believer that turns away after having experienced powers of the world to come will not be able to renew their stance in Christ they once had before, or it would be like crucifying our Lord Jesus all over again.

 

[RichardBurger]

Some of that thinking is totally un-Biblical. You're very close to preaching the 'once saved, always saved' doctrine of men.

Phil 2:12
12 Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.
(KJV)

That doesn't meant we can't have joy in The Lord. It does mean we are to be responsible, sincere, and serious regarding sin. It means to repent of our on-going sins like John showed in 1 John 1. As a matter of fact, our Lord Jesus gave several warnings about a believer that falls away from Him to a life of sin being joined with the wicked in the "outer darkness" when He returns.

In Hebrews 6 Paul showed how a believer that turns away after having experienced powers of the world to come will not be able to renew their stance in Christ they once had before, or it would be like crucifying our Lord Jesus all over again.

So you are in the "WORKS" crowd. Yes, I believe that once a child of God is born of the Holy Spirit ALL his/her sins are covered by the shed blood of Jesus on the cross and God keeps them BY HIS POWER. They are not kept by the power of men. -- What Paul is talking about is "working out your faith in Jesus' shed blood." In other words increasing your faith, trust, and confidence in the power of God. But to you it means going through life trying not to sin by your own power. - In Hebrews 6 Paul is saying that if you reject the power of Jesus' shed blood to save you, there is nothing else that can save you.

So you want to accuse what I believe as being "un-Biblical". Why don't you grow up. I can make that same accusation towards you but I want do that because I am more mature than you. You think it elevates you in the eyes of others and I don't care about the eyes of others, I only care about the eyes of Jesus (God).

I am glad that this thread didn't draw the na-sayers very quickly so that people could read it and think FOR THEMSELVES and not have those that place no confidence in the power of the cross try to tell them what it means.

Romans 7
21 I find then a law, that evil is present with me, the one who wills to do good. 22 For I delight in the law of God according to the inward man. 23 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members. 24 O wretched man that I am! Who will deliver me from this body of death? 25 I thank God—through Jesus Christ our Lord! So then, with the mind I myself serve the law of God, but with the flesh the law of sin.

I agree that Paul was struggling here between soul and Spirit. His conclusion was that his mind served God but his flesh (soul) served the law of sin....This is a period of sanctification that we all struggle with, particularly as new believers.

Further on he says....

Romans 8
1 There is therefore now no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus, who do not walk according to the flesh, but according to the Spirit. 2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has made me free from the law of sin and death. 3 For what the law could not do in that it was weak through the flesh, God did by sending His own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, on account of sin: He condemned sin in the flesh, 4 that the righteous requirement of the law might be fulfilled in us who do not walk according to the flesh but according to the Spirit. 5 For those who live according to the flesh [G4561] set their minds on the things of the flesh[G4561], but those who live according to the Spirit, the things of the Spirit. 6 For to be carnally [G4561] minded is death, but to be spiritually[G4151] minded is life and peace. 7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God; for it is not subject to the law of God, nor indeed can be. 8 So then, those who are in the flesh cannot please God.

Here, I believe is the transforming part with the aide of the Holy Spirit...

9 But you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. Now if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he is not His. 10 And if Christ is in you, the body is dead because of sin, but the Spirit is life because of righteousness. 11 But if the Spirit of Him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, He who raised Christ from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through His Spirit who dwells in you.

5 For those who live according to the flesh[G4561] set their minds on the things of the flesh [G4561], but those who live according to the Spirit, the things of the Spirit. 6 For to be carnally[G4561] minded is death, but to be spiritually [G4151] minded is life and peace.

G4561 sarx - flesh
Probably from the base of G4563; flesh (as stripped of the skin), that is, (strictly) the meat of an animal (as food), or (by extension) the body (as opposed to the soul (or spirit), or as the symbol of what is external, or as the means of kindred, or (by implication) human nature (with its frailties (physically or morally) and passions), or (specifically) a human being (as such): - carnal (-ly, + -ly minded), flesh ([-ly]).

G4561 sarx - Carnally
Probably from the base of G4563; flesh (as stripped of the skin), that is, (strictly) the meat of an animal (as food), or (by extension) the body (as opposed to the soul (or spirit), or as the symbol of what is external, or as the means of kindred, or (by implication) human nature (with its frailties (physically or morally) and passions), or (specifically) a human being (as such): - carnal (-ly, + -ly minded), flesh ([-ly]).

G5427 phronēma - minded
From G5426; (mental) inclination or purpose: - (be, + be carnally, + be spiritually) mind (-ed).

G4151 pneuma -spiritually
From G4154; a current of air, that is, breath (blast) or a breeze; by analogy or figuratively a spirit, that is, (human) the rational soul, (by implication) vital principle, mental disposition, etc., or (superhuman) an angel, daemon, or (divine) God, Christ’s spirit, the Holy spirit: - ghost, life, spirit (-ual, -ually), mind. Compare G5590.



During the period of our personal sanctification, the Holy Spirit helps us in the process of walking in the Spirit and not in our flesh. Sometimes it can be on-going.

Galations 5
16 I say then: Walk in the Spirit, and you shall not fulfill the lust of the flesh. 17 For the flesh lusts against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh; and these are contrary to one another, so that you do not do the things that you wish. 18 But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the law.


1 Thessalonians 5:23
Now may the God of peace Himself sanctify you completely; and may your whole spirit, soul, and body be preserved blameless at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.

G4151 pneuma - spirit
From G4154; a current of air, that is, breath (blast) or a breeze; by analogy or figuratively a spirit, that is, (human) the rational soul, (by implication) vital principle, mental disposition, etc., or (superhuman) an angel, daemon, or (divine) God, Christ’s spirit, the Holy spirit: - ghost, life, spirit (-ual, -ually), mind. Compare G5590.

G5590 psuchē - soul
From G5594; breath, that is, (by implication) spirit, abstractly or concretely (the animal sentient principle only; thus distinguished on the one hand from G4151, which is the rational and immortal soul; and on the other from G2222, which is mere vitality, even of plants: these terms thus exactly correspond respectively to the Hebrew [H5315], [H7307] and [H2416]: - heart (+ -ily), life, mind, soul, + us, + you.

G4983 sōma - body
From G4982; the body (as a sound whole), used in a very wide application, literally or figuratively: - bodily, body, slave.

Amen and blessings!!!

So you believe in "THE TRANSFORMATION" of the sinful nature. Let me know when you have become sinless.

 

[RichardBurger]

The Scriptures teach us that only those that believe in the shed blood of Jesus on the cross will be saved. What does that mean? It means what it says, only those that place their Faith in Jesus' shed blood on the cross will be saved.

Faith = trust = belief = confidence all mean the same thing.

One think is for sure, if a person does not believe the shed blood of Jesus pays for ALL their sins, past, present and future "then it doesn't" and that person is left with trying to pay for their sins by what they do.

Personally I believe Jesus' shed blood pays for ALL my sins of the flesh and I am ONCE SAVED ALWAYS SAVED. --- If a person DOES NOT believe in OSAS then their sins are not covered by Jesus' shed blood. It is that simple.

 

[Angelina]

So you believe in "THE TRANSFORMATION" of the sinful nature. Let me know when you have become sinless

What I said was...sanctification can be an on-going process...We are never going to be perfect whilst in this body because it [our flesh/soul] battles with the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit helps us to be more like Christ by convicting us of unrepented sin and to grow in our salvation.

Philippians 2:9-11
[sup]9[/sup] Therefore God also has highly exalted Him and given Him the name which is above every name, [sup]10[/sup] that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of those in heaven, and of those on earth, and of those under the earth, [sup]11[/sup] and that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.
[sup]12[/sup] Therefore, my beloved, as you have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling; [sup]13[/sup] for it is God who works in you both to will and to do for His good pleasure.

Paul states:

Philippians 3

All for Christ
[sup]1[/sup] Finally, my brethren, rejoice in the Lord. For me to write the same things to you is not tedious, but for you it is safe.
[sup]2[/sup] Beware of dogs, beware of evil workers, beware of the mutilation! [sup]3[/sup] For we are the circumcision, who worship God in the Spirit, rejoice in Christ Jesus, and have no confidence in the flesh, [sup]4[/sup] though I also might have confidence in the flesh. If anyone else thinks he may have confidence in the flesh, I more so: [sup]5[/sup] circumcised the eighth day, of the stock of Israel, of the tribe of Benjamin, a Hebrew of the Hebrews; concerning the law, a Pharisee; [sup]6[/sup] concerning zeal, persecuting the church; concerning the righteousness which is in the law, blameless.
[sup]7[/sup] But what things were gain to me, these I have counted loss for Christ. [sup]8[/sup] Yet indeed I also count all things loss for the excellence of the knowledge of Christ Jesus my Lord, for whom I have suffered the loss of all things, and count them as rubbish, that I may gain Christ [sup]9[/sup] and be found in Him, not having my own righteousness, which is from the law, but that which is through faith in Christ, the righteousness which is from God by faith; [sup]10[/sup] that I may know Him and the power of His resurrection, and the fellowship of His sufferings, being conformed to His death, [sup]11[/sup] if, by any means, I may attain to the resurrection from the dead.

Pressing Toward the Goal
[sup]12[/sup] Not that I have already attained, or am already perfected; but I press on, that I may lay hold of that for which Christ Jesus has also laid hold of me. [sup]13[/sup] Brethren, I do not count myself to have apprehended; but one thing I do, forgetting those things which are behind and reaching forward to those things which are ahead, [sup]14[/sup] I press toward the goal for the prize of the upward call of God in Christ Jesus.
[sup]15[/sup] Therefore let us, as many as are mature, have this mind; and if in anything you think otherwise, God will reveal even this to you. [sup]16[/sup] Nevertheless, to the degree that we have already attained, let us walk by the same rule,[sup] [/sup]let us be of the same mind.

If a person DOES NOT believe in OSAS then their sins are not covered by Jesus' shed blood. It is that simple.

I do not believe in the OSAS doctrine ...nor will I ever believe it! :huh: it is a deception that makes one believe that you can do what you like in this world and still have eternal life when you die...and yes my sins are washed away by the blood of Jesus...thank you!

PS: please provide scripture that says...If you do not believe in this doctrine, you are not saved because the only requirement of salvation is this:

Romans 10:8-10
[sup]8[/sup] But what does it say? “The word is near you, in your mouth and in your heart”[sup] [/sup](that is, the word of faith which we preach): [sup]9[/sup] that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved. [sup]10[/sup] For with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.



Amen Vet, Shalom!

 

[RichardBurger]

Richard said previously: If a person DOES NOT believe in OSAS then their sins are not covered by Jesus' shed blood. It is that simple.”

Angelina said: “I do not believe in the OSAS doctrine ...nor will I ever believe it! It is a deception that makes one believe that you can do what you like in this world and still have eternal life when you die...and yes my sins are washed away by the blood of Jesus...thank you!”

My reply: I don’t believe in a “doctrine” either. But I believe in the power of the cross to save all that believe. But you don’t really believe your sins are washed away because you don’t believe all your sins are forgiven and covered by the shed blood of Jesus. If you did then you would you would believe in OSAS. You can’t say your sins have been washed away and at the same time say there are some that are not washed away.

My reply: You believe that you have to save yourself by what you do in trying not to sin. As Paul said about the Jews; they, the Jews, went about trying to establish their own righteousness and they failed to accept the righteousness that is freely given in Jesus Christ. That is exactly what you are doing.

As for a child of God wanting to go out and sin, you, and many like you, are just building a straw man. Every child of God I know does not WANT to sin but they also know they do. They are looking for a better home not made by the hands of men where they will be free from their sinful flesh nature and they have found that hope in Christ. In other words they don’t particularly care for their lives in this world and they place no confidence in their flesh.

Angelina said: “PS: please provide scripture that says...If you do not believe in this doctrine, you are not saved because the only requirement of salvation is this:”

My reply: I did not say I believe in a “doctrine” That is what you say. What you call a “doctrine” I call a truth. It is only common sense that if you believe your sins are covered by the shed blood of Jesus on the cross they are covered. (belief = faith = trust = confidence) However, you said, “your sins are washed away” and then come back and indicate that is not really true because there are sins that are not washed away and you are trying not to commit them.

I believe all my sins of the flesh are covered by the shed blood of Jesus on the cross. But many don’t believe this. They, and it seems you, believe only some are covered because they don’t believe that a child of God is held by the power of God. They believe they are held by their own power not to sin. - As I said before, "One thing is for sure, if a person does not believe the shed blood of Jesus pays for ALL their sins, past, present and future "then it doesn't" and that person is left with trying to pay for their sins by what they do.

 

[veteran]

So you are in the "WORKS" crowd. Yes, I believe that once a child of God is born of the Holy Spirit ALL his/her sins are covered by the shed blood of Jesus on the cross and God keeps them BY HIS POWER. They are not kept by the power of men. -- What Paul is talking about is "working out your faith in Jesus' shed blood." In other words increasing your faith, trust, and confidence in the power of God. But to you it means going through life trying not to sin by your own power. - In Hebrews 6 Paul is saying that if you reject the power of Jesus' shed blood to save you, there is nothing else that can save you.

So you want to accuse what I believe as being "un-Biblical". Why don't you grow up. I can make that same accusation towards you but I want do that because I am more mature than you. You think it elevates you in the eyes of others and I don't care about the eyes of others, I only care about the eyes of Jesus (God).

I am glad that this thread didn't draw the na-sayers very quickly so that people could read it and think FOR THEMSELVES and not have those that place no confidence in the power of the cross try to tell them what it means.

So you believe in "THE TRANSFORMATION" of the sinful nature. Let me know when you have become sinless.

I don't know or care what you mean by "WORKS crowd". Sounds like an attempt to categorize people outside Scripture witness, a doctrine of men work.

No one is saved by works, but only by the grace of God's free gift through His Son. But one with Faith will have works to back it up. They go hand in hand. James was right, one who has Faith will be able to show it by their works.

What do you think our Lord's parable of the talents is about, especially with the one given one talent who buried it? What was his penalty?

Rom 3:25
25 Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in His blood, to declare His righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;
(KJV)

Our first acceptance of Christ Jesus and our baptism is for the "remission of sins that are past", not sins that we may commit after that. That's why we are to repent and ask forgiveness after that, which is what 1 John 1 is talking about. It's why our Lord Jesus included the asking of forgiveness of sins in the prayer we are to pray (Luke 11).

Ideas that suggest once we have believed on Christ Jesus and been baptized, then we can go throw a big party and never have to repent of our sins after that is a very un-Biblical doctrine. That's exactly what the OSAS doctrine does.

For those who believe the OSAS doctrines, I wonder how it is that I sometimes catch them saying The Lord's Prayer which has that asking forgiveness of sins petition in it, and I also wonder why they bother to still take Holy Communion, since obviously they think they can't ever be guilty of any sin anymore, nor fall away from Christ Jesus.

 

[veteran]

I believe all my sins of the flesh are covered by the shed blood of Jesus on the cross. But many don’t believe this. They, and it seems you, believe only some are covered because they don’t believe that a child of God is held by the power of God. They believe they are held by their own power not to sin. - As I said before, "One thing is for sure, if a person does not believe the shed blood of Jesus pays for ALL their sins, past, present and future "then it doesn't" and that person is left with trying to pay for their sins by what they do.

Our sins we commit after having come to Christ Jesus CAN be covered by His Blood. Our Lord's condition He set for that is that we MUST repent and ask Him forgiveness.

It is an on-going WALK with Christ Jesus, not a separate walk alone by ourselves. This is why we see our Lord Jesus commanding believers within five Churches in Asia to repent, or else...

Rev 2:5
5 Remember therefore from whence thou art fallen, and repent, and do the first works; or else I will come unto thee quickly, and will remove thy candlestick out of his place, except thou repent.
(KJV)

 

[jiggyfly]

How do we know Paul was not using those words as mere adjectives? It's because of how he applies them to the subject of the resurrection, and what it is. He's using them to define real conditions regarding our physical and spiritual makeup God created us with, flesh, soul, and spirit, like Angelina showed from 1 Thess.5:23, remember? We are not made up of just a flesh body.

You get that from the context?

 

[veteran]

You get that from the context?

1 Cor 15:35
35 But some man will say, How are the dead raised up? and with what body do they come?
(KJV)

1 Cor 15:44
44 It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.
(KJV)

1 Cor 15:48-49
48 As is the earthy, such are they also that are earthy: and as is the heavenly, such are they also that are heavenly.
49 And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly.
(KJV)

1 Cor 15:50
50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.
(KJV)



You mean you don't?