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For Epo others who need to see this

Discussion in 'Christian Theology Forum' started by betchevy, Apr 20, 2007.

  1. betchevy

    betchevy New Member

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    Please note especially Epo and Bevex, Paul taught in I Corinthians 5:8 Let us therefore keep the feast, not with old leaven neither with the leavan of malice and wickedeness; but with the unleavened bread of of sincerity and truth...This was written after he had been to Galatians and Ephesians.He was teaching them all to keep the feasts, both the Jews and the non- Jews...And any others note these references Acts 14:1 (Iconium)...Acts 13:5 (Cyprus)Acts 16:1 (Derbe and Lystra) Acts 17:1 (Amphipolis and Apollonia)Acts 17:16, 17 (Athens)Acts 18:1,2,4(Corinth)epo notice Jews and greeks in the synagogue here..and in v 18 he is taking a Jewish vow...in Acts 18:24, 25,26 (Galatia and Phergia) I think this is enough proof for you to see1. Paul did not stop keeping the Feasts of the Lord or the ways of the Law 2.. there were synagogues all over outside of Judah where Paul went...Epo I just wanted to make sure you saw these things because I know you admire Paul and you did help me see my mistake, I was hoping to help you see where you may have possibly been mislead.. I would not want you to be so, as I do admire your spending so much time in study of the word.
     
  2. epouraniois

    epouraniois Guest

    RWP is instructive; 1Co 5:8 - Wherefore let us keep the feast (hōste heortazōmen). Present active subjunctive (volitive). Let us keep on keeping the feast, a perpetual feast (Lightfoot), and keep the leaven out. It is quite possible that Paul was writing about the time of the Jewish passover, since it was before pentecost (1Co_16:8). But, if so, that is merely incidental, and his language here is not a plea for the observance of Easter by Christians. The Greeks could not keep any perpetual feast, they were never given the feasts. The feasts belong to Israel. The OT makes this abundantly clear.And this is always true, being that it is unreasonable to build doctrine from one verse.There are just way too many verses showing what manner of behavior and ideas it was that caused the riotous behavior of the Jews, namely that a gentile had been allowed in the synagogue, to say nothing of a transference of Israel's carnal things.re:Acts 16 1Then came he to Derbe and Lystra: and, behold, a certain disciple was there, named Timotheus, the son of a certain woman, which was a Jewess, and believed; but his father was a Greek:Yes, but his MOTHER was a Jewess, i.e. not a gentile.re:Acts 13:5 (King James Version)King James Version (KJV)And when they were at Salamis, they preached the word of God in the synagogues of the Jews: and they had also John to their minister.I don't know how that verses supports non Jews being in the synagogues or at the feasts, indeed, Paul did not preach to gentiles until he exited the synagogue to those who were already believers and already standing outside the middle wall of partition. The Bible is quite clear about these things. Paul first preached to Jews only for nine years, then he preached to both Jew and Greek, but it was always to the Jew first. Afterwards he would go outside the middle wall of partition and share that message which belonged to the Jews with the Greeks. But it was Israel's message.Regarding the other verses you post, there were no gentiles involved in the synagogue. At no time was the gentile treated as equal during the Acts. Surely when we make the Scriptures say they were anything close to going beyond prophetic fulfillment is becomes a Scriptural problem. The feasts and the oracles of God, the covenant relation with God, all of it belongs to Israel. I would think that the OT makes this quite clear. While the NT brings the possibility of fulfillment, none of Israel's things are prophecied to be shared with all the nations. That is what sets Israel apart, their close association with Christ as mediators to be that chosen channel of blessing to the nations.It is for this cause that it is written ~Rom 15:27 It hath pleased them verily; and their debtors they are. For if the Gentiles have been made partakers of their spiritual things, their duty is also to minister unto them in carnal things. Writing specifically to the Jews, Paul is inspired to write ~1Co 9:11 If we have sown unto you spiritual things, is it a great thing if we shall reap your carnal things?While gentiles were being used by GOD to provoke Israel, as per prophecy, they were permitted to metaphorically sit at Israel's table, but it was still Israel's table. Why, when the hope of Israel was in view, it was awfully difficult for a non Jew to get anything from the Jew. Christ is our example in this, for HE told the Syrophenician woman HE was not SENT but to Israel. But first, "HE answered her not a word".
     
  3. betchevy

    betchevy New Member

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    did you read the verse? epo and he was speaking of the feast of unleavened bread... to all of those believers in Corinth, Greek and Jew... the feast in during the same time period as passover and Paul would never even say Easter...I iknow you as a believer and studier...so get at it...I admit when I am wrong... can you?
     
  4. epouraniois

    epouraniois Guest

    I cannot believe that the HS would contradict Himself, it must therefore be to those to whom the feasts belong. Remember, the Greek was permitted to read Israel's letters, and here Paul says no different. It does not say that Greeks now are made equal partakers of Israel's things. In fact, the entire Acts period delineates that Greeks were not equal, but only being used for the stated Biblical and prophesied purpose.The Greek was graphed in contrary to nature, and if the tree was cut down, any hope of the calling which permitted the Greek to be un naturally graphed in was cut down with the tree (as per prophecy), muting the point irregardless, for the apostle is given a new revelation that is for all people everywhere. Gentiles never came under the law, the Israel's feasts were part of Israel's law. There were only four necessary things according to Acts 15 that the gentiles were commanded to respect, and the feasts are not in that list.When we look at the instruction in the OT given to Israel, should we not think, being that God does not allow us to guess at what HE desires, that there would be some sort of corresponding instruction if God gave part of Israel's law to some other people? Of course HE would. But HE didn't. And we shouldn't want to force the issue, esp if it isn't part of the doctrine, which it isn't.If there was a transference of enjoinment, we should need to know all about that new doctrine, but none of that is given, therefore it becomes nothing more than an unsupported assumption which we simply do not have the authority to make.
     
  5. John

    John Member

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    My two cents I believe it is a metaphor or an analogyI also believe passover was fulfilled in Christ, he is our passover and we now celebrate it daily, always1 Corinthians 5 7Purge out therefore the old leaven, that ye may be a new lump, as ye are unleavened. For even Christ our passover is sacrificed for us: 8Therefore let us keep the feast, not with old leaven, neither with the leaven of malice and wickedness; but with the unleavened bread of sincerity and truth. Paul is painting us a picture. If Christ is our Passover ,then We should get the sin out of our lives. Purge out the leaven. Take out malice and the wickedness and replace it with sincerity and truthJust as Jewish people who celebrate the passover search for leaven in there homes, so that they can remove it, so too, must we search our selfs for the sins in our lives and remove them. We need to remove the leaven from our livesWe keep the feasts spiritually through Jesus or savior, by remembering him and by living a caring loving life. In that way we have removed the leaven from our lives. To Love God and our neighbors we fulfill the law. Remembering Christ in all we do and loving our brothers, we always fulfill the Law.Remembering Jesus and staying away from sin, In this way we keep the feastsThe feasts pointed us to Christ. They were the shadow of the things to come.I am not suggesting that it is wrong to celebrate them, if you wish. I am saying that I feel we don't need to. They are fulfilled when we place messiah first in our lives. They are fulfilled in him. Christ is our passover and we celebrate the feast, when we remember him
     
  6. Christina

    Christina New Member

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    I agree with you John and though Betchevy can speak for herself I know she also believes this also and only celebrates the feast to honor God and her heritage. Never to in anyway to replace Christ as she is a devout Christian
     
  7. epouraniois

    epouraniois Guest

    John brings up an excellent point, and we see the trouble with in certain traditional churches, where they crucify the Lord and practice the breaking of His body afresh daily, while having, not the risen Christ on the wall, but the dead Christ on the wall (not that images should be on the wall), and, of course, they are not even Jewish.
     
  8. HammerStone

    HammerStone Well-Known Member Staff Member

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    I Corinthians 5:7Purge out therefore the old leaven, that ye may be a new lump, as ye are unleavened. For even Christ our passover is sacrificed for us:Betchevy posted the rest, so there is no purpose in me posting the following verse. The point is that we are supposed to remember Christ as our Passover. The word there is not Easter. It's Passover, pascha in the Greek.We don't celebrate this by pushing around eggs and telling our children about magic rabbits. One network news correspondant even held up an egg and said that this egg was representative of Christ.I guess I missed that verse.So please quit taking Bible verses and running with them Epo. You draw some very interesting conclusions and wide sweeping conclusions from certain verses.I give you the Words of Jesus our LORD:Matthew 5:17-18Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil. For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.Jesus said that. It means, quite frankly, that if someone wants to hold a service on Passover for Christ they have the right to do so without being condemned by someone who doesn't know what he's talking about. You cannot produce a verse to the contrary. Vague statements and the word of Epo does not hold.
     
  9. epouraniois

    epouraniois Guest

    re: Matthew 5:17-18, Christ said He did fulfill them ~ Luke 24:44 And he said unto them, These are the words which I spake unto you, while I was yet with you, that all things must be fulfilled, which were written in the law of Moses, and in the prophets, and in the psalms, concerning me. Luke 24:45 Then opened he their understanding, that they might understand the scriptures, Additionally, of the LORD's earthly ministry and His Work, HE said, "It is finished".Re: Gentiles being given the feasts that lawfully belong to Israel, well, I don't know what to say. Are you saying that the HS is wrong, that the middle wall of partition did not stand during the Acts, that Greeks were on equal grounds in the sight of the LORD, that they were not being used only to provoke Israel?Having read many of your posts, I wouldn't have thought you would try to build an entire doctrine out of just one verse SwampFox.Nevertheless, Paul was a Hebrew, and he says it is 'our' Passover. As far as I can see, the inspired apostle does not reveal that it is 'our' Passover and the Greeks Passover too. The OT certainly makes no suggestion for it. Now, if the law is still in effect, and if the law was also given to Gentiles, then I guess the feasts would have been given to Gentiles as well. Do you think that is what happened?
     
  10. HammerStone

    HammerStone Well-Known Member Staff Member

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    Scripturally document when heaven and earth passed away, please.You can't. It hasn't happened yet. Read the verses for what they are. What you quoted is clear:Luke 24:44And he said unto them, These are the words which I spake unto you, while I was yet with you, that all things must be fulfilled, which were written in the law of Moses, and in the prophets, and in the psalms, concerning me.Don't take the verses out of context. You've been somewhat of a master at that thus far, and this has been drawn to my attention. It's not going to stand.Christ is talking about the law as a whole in Matthew 5. Don't compare apples to oranges, it will get you into trouble.
     
  11. epouraniois

    epouraniois Guest

    The Scriptures are they which speak of HIM. He said so. He also said to HIS people Israel ~Matthew 5:18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled. Show me where in the law where it is prophecied that the feasts were to be given to the Gentiles, please.
     
  12. HammerStone

    HammerStone Well-Known Member Staff Member

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    Answer me first. And please, actually answer the question and refrain from using some vague (and inaccurate) generalization. Why would Christ say what he said in both Matthew 5:17 and Matthew 5:18? You cannot just remove one verse when it disproves what you're trying to say.Matthew 5:17-18Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil. For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.And let's get another thing straight here. There's only one unforgivable sin to be committed and we all are aware of what that is. No one here is advocating any sort of return to the full law. Instead, it is that pascha - which is the word used in the New Testament - means Passover and not Easter. For someone who likes to go back to the Greek, you seem to be looking over this one easily.Jesus obviously fulfilled all that was said about his aforementioned first advent. However, he did not fulfill the law in the sense that it holds no more because heaven and earth have yet to pass away.
     
  13. John

    John Member

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    let's get another thing straight here. There's only one unforgivable sin to be committed and we all are aware of what that is. No one here is advocating
    There is a thread on this and I would like to here what you have to sayThink not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfill. For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.I don't understand how this scripture is used to support, the fact that the lawhas not changed or the fact that parts of the law have not been removed. What I mean is the Levitical law has been removed. You can say changed or perfected, but the fact remains that pen strokes have been removed so we must believe that all has been fulfilled, I would also say all laws pertaining to clean and unclean have been removed or changed.
    Scripturally document when heaven and earth passed away, please.You can't. It hasn't happened yet. Read the verses for what they are. What you quoted is clear:
    I am sorry I guess it's not clear to me. I read the verse as saying haven and earth shall not pass away till all has been fulfilled. not that heaven and earth with pass away before one jot and tittle be removed. To me it says, before all has been fulfilled heaven and earth will pass away before one word is removed, However now that we know the levitcal law has been removed for one, we can assume all has been fulfilled
     
  14. Christina

    Christina New Member

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    Only the ordances have passed away the law has always been the same never passed away.I think you confuse ordances and Laws The laws of Moses never passed away the health laws although we are not required to keep them common sense tells you they are sound. Only the Ordances have passed away which is why He says I come not to change one iota of the Law.
     
  15. HammerStone

    HammerStone Well-Known Member Staff Member

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    Christ expanded on the Ten Commandments, so if you're advocating that some how all of the Law passed away, that is a highly mistaken assumption: Matthew 5:19Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven. Christ went on to expand the Commandments. For example, (paraphrasing, read the rest of the chapter to know and understand Christ's Words) Christ said you've heard of thou shalt not kill. Christ then says "That whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment" as well. The 10 Commandments are part of that law that so many people say has been removed. It hasn't and Christ never said it had. He never changed a thing in that regard. Christ's coming was purely to provide us with Salvation through the forgiveness of sins. Back to the topic at hand. The reason I brought this up is Epo was trying to muddy the waters by somehow suggesting that Passover is part of the old law. What Christ did change was the ordinances and statutes which are separate from the law and commandments. As the Apostle Paul said, we were held slave to the law and Christ erased this. No one here, including betchevy, is arguing that holding Passover - the root of this latest round of discussion - is something we must do under the law. Instead, we are pointing to the pagan traditions that have become Easter - the fertility of the egg and fertility of the bunnies. This is not of Christ. What Christ said in Matthew 5:18 takes place in Revelation 21:1: Revelation 21:1And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea. This is eternity when we no longer have to even worry about the law because all that is corrupt has been purged. This is why I take such and issue with Matthew 5:18 and people who misrepresent it. It's very important to understand this verse in context. It is a sin to break a commandment which Christ expanded and therefore validated. That never changed. What changed was we can repent!
     
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