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Featured 'For' or 'because of' the remission of sins

Discussion in 'Bible Study Forum' started by oldhermit, Jun 19, 2018.

  1. oldhermit

    oldhermit Active Member

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    I have heard many arguments regarding the word εἰς and how it is to be translated, particularly in such places as Acts 2:38. Should it be translated as 'into', or 'because of'? Let me here some of your arguments on this.
     
  2. Ernest T. Bass

    Ernest T. Bass Active Member

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    (1) The same exact phase is found in Matthew 26:28. Did Jesus shed His blood BECAUSE sins were already remitted? No, not possible Hebrews 9:22.

    (2) In Acts 2:38 "repent" is tied to "baptized" by the conjunction "and" making the two inseparable. Therefore if one is baptized BECAUSE his sin are already remitted then one repents BECAUSE his sins are already remitted...which makes no sense.

    (3) in the context of Acts 2 Peter is preaching to Jews and convicted them of the sin of crucifying the Christ. The people then ask:

    --Men and brethren, what shall we do? -verse 37
    --Peter commands them to repent and be baptized for remission of sins -verse 38
    --Peter then commands them to "save yourselves" -verse 40
    --and we are told "Then they that gladly received his word were baptized"- verse 41

    If we assume for a moment that eis means 'because' then:

    --the people ask Peter what must we do v37

    --Peter tells them you are already saved v38 (evidently they did not know they were already saved, how can one be saved and not know it? At what point/verse in Acts 2 did they become saved and not know it?)

    --after telling them they are already saved in verse 38 Peter commands them to 'save yourselves' in v40. Why command them to be saved in v40 if they were already saved prior to v38? Did Peter decide in v40 maybe they are not saved? Is Peter now in v40 unsure if they are saved or not?

    --verse 41 "Then they that gladly received his word were baptized" The logical implication is those NOT baptized were the ones who rejected the gospel word. Therefore being baptized is accepting the gospel word. How then can one NOT be baptized thereby reject the gospel word yet still be saved anyway BEFORE being baptized and accepting the gospel word?

    --lastly, setting aside the word eis for a moment, the fact Peter (inspired by the Holy Ghost) commanded repent and be baptized make these 2 things necessary if for no other reason. Not obeying God's commands is sin/unrighteousness/rebellion and the reason men are lost. Hebrews 10:26 willfully not obeying Peter's command of Acts 2:38 would only leave one lost with no other sacrifice for sin.

    EDIT (I remember you from another forum but I don't remember which one)
     
    Last edited: Jun 20, 2018
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  3. oldhermit

    oldhermit Active Member

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    I have been on a number of forums over the past few years. I spend a lot of time of the CC forum. I used to spend a lot of time in the TOL forum but I have not been on that forum in a couple of years.
     
  4. Hidden In Him

    Hidden In Him Well-Known Member

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    Greetings, Hermit.

    I just checked Liddell-Scott, and nowhere is "because of" supported as a rendering. Nowhere. And this is an extremely widely used word in Greek (I believe it's among the top 10 most frequently used in the NT also). So it appears to be a desperate attempt to avoid the meaning of the text. "With regard to" would be the closest of any reasonable translation, but even this leads back in the direction of "unto" or "for," and not "because of." I'm sure you are aware of it, but εἰς takes the accusative as well, whereas "because of" points to genitive use.

    So who uses "because of" anyway?
     
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  5. oldhermit

    oldhermit Active Member

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    Robertson attempts to make an argument for 'because of'. If you do not know who A.T. Robertson is, he is one of the foremost Greek scholars of the twentyth century. In spite of his considerable reputation and skills as a Greek scholar, he has simply missed it on this point.
     
  6. Hidden In Him

    Hidden In Him Well-Known Member

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    Ahhh... I had heard of him, yes. Never got deeply into individual scholars like Robertson or Wuest, though it might be interesting reading at some point. In your asking this, I was under the impression that "because of" was a rendering favored by some offshoot sect that vehemently opposed the command to water baptize or something. :eek:

    I'm assuming then that Robertson opposes the teaching that baptism is necessary for salvation, yes?
     
  7. oldhermit

    oldhermit Active Member

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    Actually, it is an opinion held by many within the various groups.
     
  8. Hidden In Him

    Hidden In Him Well-Known Member

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    Well it's actually an opinion I hold as well, but I was just curious about Robertson. It was sort of a knee jerk reaction to why he would favor that translation, but maybe he had another reason for why he did.
     
  9. Stranger

    Stranger Well-Known Member

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    What difference does it make?

    Stranger
     
  10. oldhermit

    oldhermit Active Member

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    It makes a great deal of difference. The attempt is being made to change the definition of εἰς to mean 'because of' rather than 'into' so that some can argue that baptism is because of the remission of sins rather that to obtain the remission of sins.
     
  11. Stranger

    Stranger Well-Known Member

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    KJV says "...Repent and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins,...."

    Stranger
     
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  12. Jay Ross

    Jay Ross Active Member

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    Since this Greek word, εἰς is found in the new Testament: -

    according to the BIBLEHUB web site 1774 times (Link: - Strong's Greek: 1519. εἰς (eis) -- to or into (indicating the point reached or entered, of place, time, fig. purpose, result) ) with the following variations: -

    Forms and Transliterations
    εις εἰς εἴς εν ἐν ἓν επί πρὸς eis eís en hen hèn pros pros

    while Biblesoft suggests that it is found only 1767 times.

    The definitions given suggest the following understanding,

    Strong's Exhaustive Concordance

    against, among, as, at, backward, before

    A primary preposition; to or into (indicating the point reached or entered), of place, time, or (figuratively) purpose (result, etc.); also in adverbial phrases -- (abundant-)ly, against, among, as, at, (back-)ward, before, by, concerning, + continual, + far more exceeding, for (intent, purpose), fore, + forth, in (among, at, unto, -so much that, -to), to the intent that, + of one mind, + never, of, (up-)on, + perish, + set at one again, (so) that, therefore(-unto), throughout, til, to (be, the end, -ward), (here-)until(-to),...ward, (where-)fore, with. Often used in composition with the same general import, but only with verbs (etc.) Expressing motion (literally or figuratively).

    Found on the same link above.

    The reference that was provided in the OP is: -

    Acts 2 : 38: - 38 Then Peter said to them, "Repent, and let every one of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

    So the translation of εἰς as "for" in this verse indicates the position that will be reached if the people repent of their iniquities and also are baptized {in the name of Jesus Christ}, is a reasonable translation in this case. However, if we look at the context of this verse and the circumstances in which this statement is made, then it is possible to see that there are other acceptable way of translating εἰς that will indicate the position reached, i.e. the outcome achieved, of what Peter was preaching.

    The expanded context of the verse is (without quoting all of what Peter said):-

    Acts 2 : 34 - 39: - 34 "For David did not ascend into the heavens, but he says himself:

    'The Lord said to my Lord,
    'Sit at My right hand, ​
    35 Till I make Your enemies Your footstool."' ​

    36 "Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly that God has made this Jesus, whom you crucified, both Lord and Christ."

    37 Now when they heard this, they were cut to the heart, and said to Peter and the rest of the apostles, "Men and brethren, what shall we do?"

    38 Then Peter said to them, "Repent, and let every one of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. 39 For the promise is to you and to your children, and to all who are afar off, as many as the Lord our God will call."

    Now, this was the normal procedural model that the Disciples had learned during their time with Christ. When the people were repentant, that they should then be baptised as soon as possible afterwards.

    The translation could have easily been done in this manner without changing the contextual understanding: -

    "Repent, and let every one of you be baptized in the Name of Jesus Christ, to gain, the remissions of your sins, and to receive for oneself the gift of the Holy Spirit, as the promise is to you, your children and to all who are afar off, (i.e. the gentiles), as many as the Lord God will call."

    Now, Christ also directly forgave the sins of people with the prevision that they should go and sin no more, and for this He drew the ire of the religious leaders of His day.

    Now in the Old Testament, if people repented of their sins, then they would also receive the promises, but if a righteous man sinned and he did not repent of his sins then he would lose all of the promises that had been available to him before he had sinned.

    Sadly, we can attempt to make a case for a particular process requirement to receive salvation, but there are many variation of the salvation process recorded in the scriptures that are also valid.

    We should remember that God Himself wrote on the tablets of stone that He gave to Moses, that, "He would love those who loved Him and kept His statutes." or words to that effect.

    Shalom
     
  13. oldhermit

    oldhermit Active Member

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    You have to be careful when you use the list of renderings given by Strong's. He has an unfortunate tendency to offers definitions in his comprehensive segment that cannot be demonstrated. I am not sure where he gets some of his definitions because for some of them, there are no such examples from scripture to support them. If you want a really good Greek concordance, I would recommend Bower. I would also highly recommend both Mounce and Wallace.

    I would have to disagree with you on one point. There is indeed an established pattern for salvation. There are no variations of the salvation process. What we see in all the conversion examples in Acts consists of abbreviated accounts. In some examples, belief is not mentioned, in some, repentance is not mentioned, in some confession, is not mentioned, and in some, baptism is not mentioned. Simply because all of these are not mentioned in every account does not mean they were not all present. This is not a matter of picking which one we want. Peter sets forth from the very beginning what is required for one to receive forgiveness of sin and this does not change through the entire NT. When Peter and the apostles were asked "What shall we do," Peter gives the only remedial recommendation. There was no question that many had believed. What they still lacked was to repent and then be baptized. This resulted in two things - the forgiveness of sins and the receiving of the Holy Spirit, neither of which is possible without this process. This is the point at which sin is forgiven, not before. Ananias made this point very clear to Saul telling him in chapter 22, "Why do you delay? Get up and be baptized, and wash away your sins, calling on His name." Even though Saul had already believed in Jesus, he was still in his sins and this had to be dealt with, and baptism was the provision for the problem. It was not until he was baptized that his sins were taken away.
     
  14. Jay Ross

    Jay Ross Active Member

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    I agree with you that we should always test out what other people produce. I have trouble with how the Greek and for that matter the Hebrew, is translated in a lot of cases and the bias of the translators themselves who introduce their own understanding into the translated bibles. But that is another topic

    It seems that we will have a difference of opinion as to how salvation works. While there are different examples in the New Testament of the salvation process, the basic fundamental is the establishment of a relationship with God. What God requires of each person is His to determine and being fixated on a methodology for Salvation can be dangerous for all concerned. It is like the adherence to the "Law" that was the hallmark of the Old Testament era for the Israelites, but even before that era, God established relationships in different ways and people walked with God.

    However, the OP's primary topic was set out in this manner: -
    That was fundamentally what I was addressing in my post using Act 2:38 as the example that you had structured your OP around to ask the question that you did. In the nearly 1780 times that G:1519 is found in the New Testament it is translated using different English words that reflect the context that it is used in.

    If you literally wanted a thread on the topic of the "salvation process," then a very different Op was required.

    Shalom
     
  15. oldhermit

    oldhermit Active Member

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    Well, I really was not looking to discuss the soteriological implications surrounding the use of εἰς at this point. What I am more concerned with on this thread is looking at the rules of grammar that govern the syntax of the verse. All languages have rules for grammar and syntax that cannot be ignored or communication becomes impossible. I suppose the question is this, according to the rules of grammar, why can εἰς NOT be translated as 'because of'?
     
  16. Ernest T. Bass

    Ernest T. Bass Active Member

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    I was banned from the CC forum. I was Seabass. One day I tried to get on the site and got the following message:
    "You have been banned for the following reason: Baptism necessary for salvation agenda/false teaching."
     
  17. oldhermit

    oldhermit Active Member

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    Yea, I saw you had been banned, I figured that was why.
     
  18. GerhardEbersoehn

    GerhardEbersoehn Well-Known Member

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    As in any language, so in English, 'unto' can mean 'because of'. And in Greek, naturally also. But in a post before yours, someone said 'eis' means 'into'. An example is where a priest dips his finger-tip 'into' something like water or blood. Only in the Old Testament though, and then with the Dative and where there is physical movement. But never in Hellenistic NT Koineh, where 'eis' is only used with the Accusative and therefore only with the meaning of "towards" an object metaphysical like a day or physical like a place, e.g., Galatia; not 'into'. They set out for Galatia, unto Galatia, to Galatia, "because of Galatia" Galatia being the goal to be reached.
     
    Last edited: Jun 28, 2018
  19. oldhermit

    oldhermit Active Member

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    This is utter nonsense. First of all, unto never means 'because of' but, I do not care what the definition of 'for' or 'unto' is in English. We are not talking about English. Yes, εἰς always takes the accusative, and ἄφεσιν is in the accusative. In English, anytime you have "of," it is automatically understood to be genitive, which εἰς never is. It cannot be "because of," because εἰς is a preposition, and "because" is a conjunction. You do not substitute conjunctions for prepositions.

    If we insist upon using 'because of' to define εἰς, we will have to throw out all the rules of grammar that govern the mechanics of the syntax of this verse. When we do this, then we can make the language say anything we want. The reason we have scripture in the original language is so that we can maintain the integrity of the text, not so we can manipulate it to satisfy what we think the text should say.
     
    Last edited: Jun 28, 2018
  20. GerhardEbersoehn

    GerhardEbersoehn Well-Known Member

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    'eis' used in the sense of 'because of'
    εἶπεν οὖν ὁ Ἰησοῦς Ἄφες αὐτήν, ἵνα εἰς τὴν ἡμέραν
    Then said Jesus, Let her alone: against the day

    τοῦ ἐνταφιασμοῦ μου τηρήσῃ αὐτό· 8 τοὺς πτωχοὺς γὰρ
    of my burying hath she kept this. 8 For the poor

    'eis' used synonymously with 'dia' and 'hoti'; 'because of' - 'have need of'

    καὶ ἐάν τις ὑμᾶς ἐρωτᾷ Διὰ τί λύετε;
    And if any man ask you, Why do ye loose him?

    οὕτως ἐρεῖτε ὅτι Ὁ Κύριος αὐτοῦ χρείαν ἔχει.
    thus shall ye say unto him, Because the Lord hath need of him.

    'eis' - 'because (He was)'
    κρατῆσαι ἐφοβήθησαν τοὺς ὄχλους, ἐπεὶ εἰς προφήτην αὐτὸν εἶχον.
    they feared the multitude, because they took him for a prophet.
     
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