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For those who have a good grasp of the theory of evolution as well as the gospel...

Discussion in 'Christian Apologetics Forum' started by shnarkle, Aug 14, 2019.

  1. shnarkle

    shnarkle Well-Known Member

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    Over the years of debating things like the gospel and evolution, I've noticed some striking similarities between the gospel and the theory of evolution. Most notably that the Mechanism of evolution is strikingly similar to the Spirit.

    "The Spirit breathes where he wills, you hear the sound of his voice, but no not where it comes from or where it goes, so it is with everyone who is born of the Spirit" John3:8
    The haphazard nature of stochastic shuffle, variation of species, etc. seems quite similar to me.

    Steven Hawking pointed out that from a scientific biological point of view, we probably don't have free will. I see this as similar to Paul's doctrine of election, and his references to foreknowledge and predestination.

    The more I look at these two different ideas, the more I see how similar they are. I find this an amazing idea in that the theory is not only readily understandable by those who are familiar with it, but presents us with this opportunity to spread the gospel through using the theory itself.

    I suspect that there are probably those who would not be pleased with these comparisons, mostly those of the atheist, or skeptic variety, but I can also see how some might actually see how the gospel makes sense as well.

    What other similarities do you see between these two ideas?
     
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  2. DoveSpirit05

    DoveSpirit05 Active Member

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    none!! evo is just a theory!! and theres no actual proof of it, the holly spirit is truth!!
     
  3. shnarkle

    shnarkle Well-Known Member

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    This theory tells us that what is alive is adapted to live through the Mechanism of Evolution.

    It is essentially haphazard. It isn't forward thinking, or as John's gospel points out: "The Spirit breathes where it will, you hear the sound of it's voice, but can't tell where it comes from or where it goes, so it is with everyone who is born of the spirit."

    How is this Mechanism manifested, or how does it continue to do this? We see it in cell division. All of a cell's genetic information continues indefinitely as long as the cell is able to regenerate itself. This process requires the death of the cell. The gospel narratives point out that Jesus was born to die, and that through death one is born into eternal life. This regeneration or resurrection cannot occur without death, but it is only death to the cell body, not the identity or purpose of the cell itself. Whatever that cell is adapted to do is still the same. It is adapted to work within the body as a whole. Paul also refers to the "many-membered body" as well as pointing out the unity in Christ. Each cell functions independantly, yet they are inter-independant with each other. They work together as a unified whole just as the church or body of Christ does as well, or as Paul says, "all things work together for the good of those who love and serve the lord"
    We have stochastic shuffle, or what Paul describes as "mixed together shaken, etc."

    We have natural selection, or as Christ puts it, " you didn't choose me, I chose you". Paul says, "those who God foreknew, he predestined to conform to the image of Christ"
     
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  4. Windmillcharge

    Windmillcharge Well-Known Member

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    There is no 'mechanism of evolution.' There is only chance.
     
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  5. Truth

    Truth Well-Known Member

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    After reading the OP. I can see one similarity of which is written, that is there will always be some scientific reasoning to eradicate the possibility of creation!
    On the other hand, we as people can weigh similarity's that some how stand out in Scripture, that seem to fit with these Theories, yet, we must rely on scripture to stand fast!
    I do agree with the possibility of using EVOLUTION as a good starting point to present the Gospel! Like how on earth did man get the ability to reason? Just saying!
    This OP has some good Merit!!
     
  6. ScottA

    ScottA Well-Known Member

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    All such similarities are due to the fact that time is an illusion. To the scientist it adds up one way, and to the theologian it adds up another way--by design. Within the manifest illusion, both are true. To each their own illusion. To each no excuse.

    As an illusion, if one believes according to the truth from God, it is so, and he is correct. To the contrary, if one believes according to the folly of his own understanding and that of the visible world, he is carried away where his own error takes him. Both are true: both the truth from God, and also the folly, for both are made true by their actions unto judgement by their own doing.
     
  7. shnarkle

    shnarkle Well-Known Member

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    They're simply using different nomenclature. The Creationist uses the term "creation" while the atheist, skeptic, scientist uses the term "cosmos", or "objective evidence" etc. They're not able to eradicate creation when it is pointed out that the term has a corresponding term in their own theory.

    These are not mutually exclusive propositions. There is no need to compromise scripture in order to do this. In fact, the only way it can work is for the theory to match scripture, not the other way around.
     
  8. shnarkle

    shnarkle Well-Known Member

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    A distinction with no effective difference. The mechanism is haphazard chance.
     
  9. Prayer Warrior

    Prayer Warrior Well-Known Member

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    The Spirit breathing "where he wills" reflects the sovereign will of God. There is nothing haphazard about God or His will. The working of the Spirit is only a mystery to man because of man's lack of understanding of the ways of God.

    Hawking was brilliant, but as an atheist, he rejected the wisdom of God and became a fool.

    Psalms 14:1--The fool hath said in his heart, There is no God. They are corrupt, they have done abominable works, there is none that doeth good.

    I don't see Paul saying that man has no free will, and Hawking certainly didn't base his ideas about free will on the Bible.

    I'm all for creativity when preaching the gospel, but really, I think a simple presentation is best. Paul said that he resolved to know nothing "save Jesus Christ, and him crucified." (1 Cor. 2:2) It's so simple, even a physicist can understand it (if he chooses to).
    .
     
  10. DoveSpirit05

    DoveSpirit05 Active Member

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    nice one!!:)
     
  11. DoveSpirit05

    DoveSpirit05 Active Member

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    shnarkle I luv your message underneath ur post mind if I clip it onto my post's I wanna share it, nice words of wisdom!! and dat goes 4 ur OP too!!:)
     
  12. bbyrd009

    bbyrd009 Groper

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    ha well thing is you've introed about six ideas there lol, but i think i get you.
    anyway, yes. I got dragged to the Scientific Method repeatedly until i stopped denying it myself, even as i have accepted that math can never create, only explain, and cant ever get us all the way there so to speak. test everything, and keep what is good. Goedel's Incompleteness Theorem.
    Evolution is a theory meant to describe the mechanism God used, not compete with it. imo; bam, please, disprove some aspect of "evolution" if you can (actually a pretty broad term i guess), that we might all benefit from a better understanding, imo
     
  13. bbyrd009

    bbyrd009 Groper

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    IMG_0365.JPG
    an image of God?
    IMG_0366.JPG
    the dust of the earth?
     
  14. bbyrd009

    bbyrd009 Groper

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    word. as a corrollary, The Abarim are saying that we believe "survival of the fittest" but this is patently untrue, unwise, and it is actually "survival of the weakest" that drives evolution, i think i put that right, anyway he goes on to make a good case for that; the genetic outliers are the ones that insure diversity, a society is regarded by how it cares for its weakest members, etc, hope i'm not hijacking here lol
     
  15. bbyrd009

    bbyrd009 Groper

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    it is maybe easy to believe that evolution is the thing scientists want us to believe in, yeh, but really they want you to disprove it if you can. Yes, evo is just a theory, and it is not meant to replace or supersede God, but to better understand life, at least imo.

    at "there is only chance," chance seems to always lead to maximum entropy, every mountain levelled, every valley filled, so how has order arisen from chance? So iow to say "there is only chance" is like saying "we evolved by chance, order arose from disorder, and there is no God" although i'm sure you meant that in a different context. Iow order counterintuitively arising from chaos is, becomes, a proof of God
     
  16. Windmillcharge

    Windmillcharge Well-Known Member

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    Except evolutionist often insist that the chance is not 'random' that in some unknown mistic way evolution directs chance.
     
  17. Windmillcharge

    Windmillcharge Well-Known Member

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    It is not primarily our task to disprove evolution it is evolutionists primarily task to provide evidence for evolution.

    As evolutionists will not permit debate or discussion of evolution they have the task of suppling the evidence.
     
  18. shnarkle

    shnarkle Well-Known Member

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    I've yet to see anyone phrase it that way. It is completely haphazard, and only if the environment happens to be conducive to those changes do those species survive or thrive. Regardless, it works either way with this topic.
     
  19. shnarkle

    shnarkle Well-Known Member

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    They're presenting evidence, and interpreting it to fit their theory. There are a number of mathematicians, micro biologists, and others who have pointed out just within the last ten years that the theory is seriously flawed. Hundreds of scientists are jumping on the bandwagon, and rejecting the theory.

    It's a beautiful theory, but it simply doesn't work any more. It needs to be abandoned. Those who refuse to look at the newest evidence have crossed the line from science into faith in the theory. This is a great reason to use it on them as a metaphor for the gospel.
     
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  20. bbyrd009

    bbyrd009 Groper

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    i dont mean to say that it is a believer's task to disprove it, but everyone's who might be interested. And anyone who will not "permit" anything is not worth your time anyway, imo, they would be more like armchair evolutionists anyway, right?

    the point i meant to make is that the theory of evolution gets pitted "against" the beliefs of many Christians who perceive a dissociation from what they read in the Bible, but imo these Christians are basically being taken advantage of, and asked to make some "choice" that is completely moot in order to put them at odds with those who happen to believe in a theory that may very well be leading to the same conclusion anyway. Evolutionists are not our "enemies" iow; just as a believer who does not agree with our doctrines should not be, at least imo.

    Who, it might be mentioned, are quite likely to adjust their beliefs as time goes by anyway, right?
    So i mean just picture the believer who insists upon their current beliefs as AT, in context with the scientist who fully understands that his fave theory evolution might be subject to change with the acquisition of any new information. Although both are on a bell-curve, and even the opposite motivations might apply, certainly. Cassini, etc.
     
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