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Forsaken

Discussion in 'Bible Study Forum' started by theophilus, Apr 23, 2020.

  1. theophilus

    theophilus Well-Known Member

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    God has never promised that his children will be wealthy in this life but he has promised that we will have everything we need.

    Keep your life free from love of money, and be content with what you have, for he has said, “I will never leave you nor forsake you.”
    Hebrews 13:5 ESV

    Because he has promised never to forsake us we don’t need to be concerned about how much money we have. He will give us what we need when we need it. If we don’t have something we would like to have it means we don’t need it so we can be content with what we have, no matter how little that is.

    God’s promises don’t mean we will never suffer. Like any good father God wants his children to become mature and maturity requires discipline.

    It is for discipline that you have to endure. God is treating you as sons. For what son is there whom his father does not discipline?
    Hebrews 12:7 ESV

    The discipline we endure doesn’t mean that God has forsaken us but shows that he is actively involved in our lives. Whatever pain we suffer now will be made up for by the effects it has on us in the future. (If everything always goes smoothly for you and you don’t ever suffer, perhaps you should examine yourself to make sure you are really saved. Satan sometimes tricks people into thinking they are saved when they aren’t. I was once a victim of this deception. I was an active member of a church but I was still lost.)

    In view of these facts, Jesus made a statement while he was being crucified that is puzzling to some.

    And about the ninth hour Jesus cried out with a loud voice, saying, “Eli, Eli, lema sabachthani?” that is, “My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?”
    Matthew 27:46 ESV

    God has promised never to forsake us. How could he forsake is own Son?

    Psalm 22 begins with the words Jesus said. Some have tried to explain his words by saying that he was quoting that psalm. But if you read the psalm you will see that it is a prophecy of how the Messiah would die.

    For dogs encompass me;
    a company of evildoers encircles me;
    they have pierced my hands and feet—
    I can count all my bones—
    they stare and gloat over me;
    they divide my garments among them,
    and for my clothing they cast lots.
    Psalm 22:16-18 ESV

    Jesus wasn’t quoting Psalm 22; the psalm was prophesying what he would say.

    His being forsaken by the Father makes sense when we look at why Jesus died in the first place.

    For our sake he made him to be sin who knew no sin, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God.
    2 Corinthians 5:21 ESV

    All death, both physical and spiritual, is the result of sin. Jesus never sinned so he didn’t have to die. He chose to die in our place so that we could be reconciled to God and receive eternal life. Since our sins have separated us from God he had to experience this same separation.

    None of us can conceive of how painful this separation was for Jesus. We are born in a state of spiritual death so separation is our default position. Jesus was God as well as man and had always known perfect fellowship with God. When he was rejected he couldn’t even address God as “Father” as he normally did. The suffering of being rejected was probably worse than the physical pain he experienced. When he asked if God could allow this cup to pass from him, I think he was referring more to this separation than to the pain of crucifixion.

    It won’t be until we get to Heaven that we will have some idea of the price Jesus paid. When we experience perfect fellowship without any sin to distract us we will finally understand the sacrifice he made. Those who reject him will also begin to understand rejection when they are condemned to Hell and no longer receive any of the good things God gives them in this life.

    It is only during this life that we have the opportunity to choose whether to repent and trust in Jesus so that his death will pay for our sins. If you aren’t sure whether you have done this I recommend that you check this site: Jesus Saves
     
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  2. BlessedCreator

    BlessedCreator Active Member

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    Jesus' blood is the atonement for our sins but let us remember that applying to the His sacrifice is not all that is required of this faith. He Himself warned us that hypocrites, lukewarm and unprofitable servants will at the last, be cast out into outer darkness.

    We see that not only must we be forgiven of our sins through His blood to appease God's wrath but we almost continue to live in obedience unto God's will after receiving forgiveness. For if you continue willfully in sin (disobedience unto God's will) after receiving forgiveness there remaineth no more sacrifice (Hebrews 5:9).

    They that abuse the grace (favor) of God once they have received atonement through repentance and Christ's blood by not continuing in obedience unto God's commandments and precepts to live a Holy and sanctified life in strict obedience unto His will, will not be saved. That is why we read in Matthew 7:14 that few will be saved, because so many think that they can just believe on Jesus or receive forgiveness through His blood and then abuse God's favor and live how they want, doing whatever they want. When in reality you MUST live for Him, doing His will in this life if you want to be saved.

    "He that doeth the will of God abideth forever."
     
  3. Candidus

    Candidus Well-Known Member

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    "God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto Himself." 2 Cor. 5:19

    There was no separation or division of God on the cross, just a united purpose of saving mankind. Jesus didn't experience "the same separation" that our sins do. The wages of sin is death... eternal separation from God. God is not divided on the Cross, nor did Jesus "experience" eternal separation from the rest of the Trinity.
     
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  4. farouk

    farouk Well-Known Member

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    He cried: "My God, My God, why hast Thou forsaken Me?" (Matthew 27.46)
     
    Last edited: Apr 24, 2020
  5. Candidus

    Candidus Well-Known Member

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    He sure did! God was in Christ, reconciling the world to Himself... that is what Scripture says. If God is One, a Unity and we do not believe in Tri-Theism... Three God's instead of One, then you cannot divide one person of this Trinity and still have God. God is One.

    "My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?" There are two options that alleviate the difficulty of destroying the Trinity. First, the word "forsake’" does not always mean to separate. In this case it means to "leave in the lurch," that is, to withhold the hand of protection in the hour of Christ’s greatest need. This is "forsaking" without separating. It means to refuse to rescue from this situation. For many reasons we must consider viable options that coincide with Scripture and bring honor to God without causing a division within the Godhead, thereby preserving the Oneness of The Triune God.

    Another option is that the words of Christ were cries of humanity in which he "felt" abandoned, when in actuality he was not.

    The words, "My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?" refer back to Psalm 22, which is a prophecy of the gruesome death that the Messiah was to suffer. The Psalm illuminates our first option by stating "why are thou so far from helping me?" The question resides in which way was God "far from helping Him," and "forsaking" him. The text of Psalm 22 reveals this a little more clearly. The abandonment that was experienced was not a separation in the Trinity because of the Father's displeasure, but an abandonment to suffering. In Psalm 22:1, it was the feeling of the righteous man that God is "far from helping him." To say that this is depicting an actual separation from God is out of harmony with subsequent verses that express the righteous man's confidence in God's presence and help. (verses 4, 9, 19.)

    Concerning the cry of perceived abandonment that we read in Psalm 22:1, we must balance this in the light of what follows in its context in 22:24, "For he hath not despised nor abhorred the affliction of the afflicted; neither hath he hid his face from him; but when he cried unto him, he heard." Psalm 22:24

    God the Father did not turn His back on Jesus, and there was no rift in the Trinity. God the Father and the Holy Spirit "forsook" the Son only in the sense that the Other Person's of the Trinity did not rush in and rescue him during his immense agony and suffering. God is One; God does not exist as One if God can divide Himself.
     
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  6. farouk

    farouk Well-Known Member

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    I think the point is that the true believer does continue. Romans 8 is a great encouragement to the true believer.
     
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  7. BlessedCreator

    BlessedCreator Active Member

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    Part of Benson's commentary on Matthew 27:46: "My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me? which words the last-mentioned divine paraphrases thus: “O my heavenly Father, wherefore dost thou add to all my other sufferings, those which arise from the want of a comfortable sense of thy presence?"
     
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  8. theophilus

    theophilus Well-Known Member

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    Jesus was God but he was also a man. Because he was a man he could die. Because he was a man he could experience real separation from God.
     
  9. Candidus

    Candidus Well-Known Member

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    It's almost the Muslim and Gnostic view. Jesus spiritual side left the man side (or some other human victim) to be separated from God. As if we could separate Jesus the God-man from Himself. His mortal body was not just some unessential shell to be discarded when it became inconvenient.
     
  10. Candidus

    Candidus Well-Known Member

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    I see that Benson had some very good comments on this passage. I should look at his comments more often.
     
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  11. DNB

    DNB Well-Known Member

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    Christ was never abandoned or forsook, theophilus, nor did Christ even think that he was. For to do so, would've shown a lack of faith. Christ knew exactly what was going to happen to him, and where afterwards, he was going to end up - at the right-hand side of God's throne. He predicted this several times to his disciples, and is documented in the Gospels.
    So don't make Jesus out to be a conflicted and double-minded fool, that at one minute he knows his destiny and the will of his Father, but at the time of crisis, he accuses of God of leaving him rejected and forlorn.

    Thus, Psalm 22 at the end, asserts that the person being referred to, was not even abandoned.

    Psalms 22:24-25
    22:24. For He has not despised nor abhorred the affliction of the afflicted; Nor has He hidden His face from him; But when he cried to Him for help, He heard. 25. From You comes my praise in the great assembly; I shall pay my vows before those who fear Him.


    Jesus' remark, as far as I'm concerned, was for the audiences' sake, telling them that although, to you, I appear to be vanquished, God never abandons the faithful. And there was no one more faithful and resolute than Jesus. That is, he never once questioned his pre-eminence or doubted God's promise and ordainment in regard to him, even at the point of death.
     
    Last edited: Apr 26, 2020
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  12. bbyrd009

    bbyrd009 Groper

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    nice imo
    ok, tks, but wadr you do realize most of the ppl in here been "saved" prolly longer than you been alive, right
    No one has ever gone up to heaven but He Who came down from it, the son of man

    i mean besides the facts youre just regurgitating what ol Preach said, and youre both mostly wrong, no offense. k have a good day i know the wolves will rush in as soon as i leave, not sparing the flock don' wanna be that guy eh
     
    Last edited: Apr 26, 2020
  13. bbyrd009

    bbyrd009 Groper

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    you too, sir, Who told you that you were naked? ok? There is the sum total of Yah's "wrath" i guess
    yall maybe put the Red Stew down and come to the Dark Side someday huh :)
     
  14. theophilus

    theophilus Well-Known Member

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    Christ's belief that he had been abandoned wasn't the result of his lack of faith but of his perfect understanding of his relationship with the Father. He knew he would end up at the right hand of God but he also knew that before that happened he would have to be abandoned for a time because he was bearing our sins.
     
  15. theophilus

    theophilus Well-Known Member

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    I'm 79 years old. Do you really think most of the people here have been saved longer than that? :)
     
  16. bbyrd009

    bbyrd009 Groper

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    i don't think anyone in here is saved tbh, me included, and "I'm 79 years old" does not indicate how long you have been professing to be saved either, wadr. You're 79 and youre still preaching Protestant 101 at the choir though? I mean ok with me, but you might get a little feel for your audience?
    i guess this is my major objection, and while i understand why you so confidently profess that up there, Jesus did not choose to die for us, as Scripture makes quite plain imo, so i would say keep an open mind there at least, ok? Plead the blood for as long as seems right to you, Esau, but No son of man may die for another's sins is not going anywhere, and waits for you to assimilate it into your perspective, i guess is the best way to put it. And "eternal" does not mean "forever" either, while we're on the subject. Have a nice day sir
     
    Last edited: Apr 27, 2020
  17. DNB

    DNB Well-Known Member

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    Sorry, but that's not correct. If taken literally, Christ posed the question 'why', as if he didn't understand. In other words, he would've expressed his emotions differently had he anticipated an abandonment from God.
    The exclamation was for the audience, and to bring their attention to the entire pericope of Psalm 22.
    Christ was never, ever abandoned by God, you don't seem to appreciate the meaning of the word. If Christ was destined to be King of King and Lord of Lords, then again, he was never abandoned, for he knew that God had to always be with him in order to fulfill the promise. You have to express this differently if you're trying to reconcile the two principles. Which you will not be able to.

    But, you are clearly one who subscribes to Penal Substitution Theory, and thus, this is why you're not interpreting the phenomenon that took place on the cross, correctly. Christ died to end the Law, he was the final sacrifice. He dissolved the Covenant that was bound by blood with the Israelites, with blood. His blood was able to do this because he completed the Law, by observing it perfectly. Therefore, no man is under the condemnation of the Law, but we are to be accountable to the Law of Faith.

    You will never reconcile what truly occurred on the cross, with the Penal Substitution Theory. For Christ's pre-eminence, and his alleged abandonment while on the cross, are antithetical to each other.
     
    Last edited: Apr 28, 2020
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  18. theophilus

    theophilus Well-Known Member

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    Then Jesus said to him, “Put your sword back into its place. For all who take the sword will perish by the sword. Do you think that I cannot appeal to my Father, and he will at once send me more than twelve legions of angels? But how then should the Scriptures be fulfilled, that it must be so?”
    Matthew 26:52-54 ESV

    Jesus did not ask the Father to send those twelve legions of angels. What other evidence do you need that he chose to die for us?
     
  19. theophilus

    theophilus Well-Known Member

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    I believe Jesus understood his relationship to God better than we do. If he said he was abandoned we much accept the fact that he was abandoned. If that conflicts with some of your other beliefs you should examine those beliefs to see where you are in error.
     
  20. bbyrd009

    bbyrd009 Groper

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    well, i wouldn't argue that He refused the Call or anything, dont get me wrong, but imo characterizing it as "His choice" in the light of Caiaphas proclamation viz better that one die for all and Jesus' request to Yah that the cup pass from Him if possible seems to argue against your point?

    I could even go so far as to say that Jesus did not die for our sins, and i could Quote as much, while you cannot Quote that He did,
    near as i can tell anyway, Bible Search: Jesus died for our sins what do you make of that?
     
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