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Free Grace!!!!!!

Discussion in 'Christian Theology Forum' started by Pop James, Dec 8, 2006.

  1. Pop James

    Pop James New Member

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    Scripture must be compared with Scripture to discover the truth of any biblical subject....for example....John 6:37 says "him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out".....on the surface this statement sounds as though anyone can come to Christ....Of course on furthur study we find that there is another meaning to this verse...for the first part of the verse states "ALL that the Father giveth me shall come to me.".....SO.....the truth of the matter is that only those given to the Son by the Father come to HIM. To believe in FREE grace one must embrace some other truths of the scripture....We MUST come to grips with the fact that man is a fallen creature and has no free will to do that which is spiritually good... and that GOD gives us a gift of justification which is through faith....The gift and calling of GOD are BESTOWED...not offered.....Man can not/ would not accept GOD if left on his own to do so.....man can never accept GOD without being drawn by the Holy Spirit.....indeed it is GOD who does the accepting and HE works ALL things after the council of HIS own will (eph 1:11)..GODs will is the law of the universe......so that leaves mans will subject to the wil of GOD when it comes to eternal salvation. GOD...."worketh in you both to will and to do of HIS good pleasure" (phil 2:13)..."GOD gives a new heart and a new spirit" (ezk 36:25-27). I will close with saying that man has neither the will or ability to come to CHRIST. "No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him"..(john 6:44). "And ye will not come to me, that ye might have life" (john 5:40)....I thank GOD for FREE GRACE....for without HIS wondorous grace the cause and effect of salvation would not be possible.....of course the cause being election...which makes effect regeneration....justification....and the ultimate effect of salvation....glorification......"Moreover whom HE predestined, these HE also called...whom HE called, these HE also justified..and who HE justified, these HE also glorified"..(rom 9:30).........may these words bring glory to HIS name.........regards....Pop
     
  2. graceforums

    graceforums New Member

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  3. pointer

    pointer New Member

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    (Pop James;4778)
    Scripture must be compared with Scripture to discover the truth of any biblical subject....for example....John 6:37 says "him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out".....on the surface this statement sounds as though anyone can come to Christ....Of course on furthur study we find that there is another meaning to this verse...for the first part of the verse states "ALL that the Father giveth me shall come to me.".....SO.....the truth of the matter is that only those given to the Son by the Father come to HIM.
    Only the Father knows who they are, so, as far as we are concerned, anyone can come to Christ.
    man is a fallen creature and has no free will to do that which is spiritually good.
    A creature that has no free will cannot be fallen. Eve chose to listen to the serpent, and Adam chose to listen to Eve. Those who come to Christ do so of their own free will. This means that they must voluntarily give up control of their lives to follow Christ, and not turn back to do their own will, if they are to be saved. No-one should suppose that they can become Christian without a fundamental decision to forever give up ownership of their lives; it is a decision made in fear and trembling, or it is not good enough. No-one can suppose that they can live their lives without fear and trembling, and call themselves Christians.The Catholic, in the old days, often lived in fear and trembling, but without any assurance of salvation, and the power that this gives. The Calvinist convinces himself (or tries to convince others) that he is saved, and has no real fear of God for that reason. So all the Calvinist has is outward works and appearances; on the Day of Judgement, the fearing Catholic of the old days will be nearer to salvation than the Calvinist.
     
  4. Pop James

    Pop James New Member

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    Oh my..do you have this turned around....it is obvious that you do not know too much about the calvinist beliefe.......Calvinist proclaim ,more than anything, that salvation is NOT by works and appearences......thats all l will say except to assure you that I myself am not a calvinist.....John Calvin never did anything for me on the dreaded cross...I am a believer in the LORD JESUS and in HIS doctrines as well as the beloved apostles....all John Calvin did was proclaim these truths............Pop
     
  5. pointer

    pointer New Member

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    (Pop James;4949)
    Calvinist proclaim ,more than anything, that salvation is NOT by works
    Calvinists declare belief in justification by faith because they would have no credibility with Christians, whom they wish to mislead, if they did not.
     
  6. graceforums

    graceforums New Member

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    (pointer;4950)
    Calvinists declare belief in justification by faith because they would have no credibility with Christians, whom they wish to mislead, if they did not.
    The Reformed belief comes from an unadulterated, Sola Scriptura worldview. "Calvinists" are bent on spreading NOTHING BUT the Truth of the Scriptures alone. As Pop James said, unfortunately, you have developed a very skewed view of the fundamental Reformed doctrines of grace and the sovereignty of God.Once Luther read the Bible for himself, he realized the papist teachings he had been trained to believe and proclaim were largely unbiblical and therefore false. It was the view of the Reformers, with an entirely biblically-based understanding, that man's will was bound, from Adam, by a state of total depravity. You should read "The Bondage of the Will" [ http://www.truecovenanter.com/truelutheran/luther_bow.html ] sometime. That would give you a truer idea of the Reformers' soteriology.Shalom.
     
  7. pointer

    pointer New Member

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    (graceforums;4976)
    The Reformed belief comes from an unadulterated, Sola Scriptura worldview.
    Prove it.
     
  8. graceforums

    graceforums New Member

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    (pointer;4977)
    Prove it.
    Prove what? Is there a particular point in Reformed theology you disagree with that I can help explain to you by Scripture?:shepard:Shalom.
     
  9. pointer

    pointer New Member

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    (graceforums;4978)
    Prove what?
    Prove that the Reformed belief comes from an unadulterated, Sola Scriptura worldview. Or is that not possible?
     
  10. graceforums

    graceforums New Member

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    (pointer;4979)
    Prove that the Reformed belief comes from an unadulterated, Sola Scriptura worldview. Or is that not possible?
    Reformed theology is VERY broad. It is possible but I'm not going to be able to rewrite an entire systematic theology for you. What I'm asking you to do is tell me one point you believe is unbiblical to get the discussion started and I will be happy to respond with Scriptural evidence for the point.Shalom.
     
  11. pointer

    pointer New Member

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    (graceforums;4980)
    Reformed theology is VERY broad. It is possible but I'm not going to be able to rewrite an entire systematic theology
    It may now be assumed that the particular tenets of Reformed theology, which, as is well known, can be summed up briefly, cannot be defended from Scripture alone.
    for you.
    Not for me, for everyone. You can hardly write a sentence without the word 'you' in it. If you were in a proper live forum, graceforums, you would not be permitted to contribute. Why do you think that is the case?
     
  12. graceforums

    graceforums New Member

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    Are you a Christian, pointer? I'm not getting a very charitable vibe from you.(pointer;4981)
    It may now be assumed that the particular tenets of Reformed theology, which, as is well known, can be summed up briefly, cannot be defended from Scripture alone.
    Summed up briefly you say? Do you know how long a treatise Calvin's Institutes is? ...or the Canons of Dort and the number of points they cover? Defensible by Scripture alone? Yes. Summarizable in brief? No.:study: (pointer;4981)
    Not for me, for everyone. You can hardly write a sentence without the word 'you' in it. If you were in a proper live forum, graceforums, you would not be permitted to contribute. Why do you think that is the case?
    This has yet to turn into an actual debate for you have yet to present a formidable question regarding any particular point of Reformed theology... therefore, we are still having a casual conversation, you and I.Shalom.
     
  13. pointer

    pointer New Member

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    (graceforums;4982)
    Summed up briefly you say?
    Of course.
    This has yet to turn into an actual debate for you have yet to present a formidable question
    I don't need to. You have made a 'proposition', and have yet again totally failed to justify it.
     
  14. graceforums

    graceforums New Member

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    [​IMG] How 'bout I just respond to what you've already stated? We can go from there.(pointer;4947)
    Only the Father knows who they are, so, as far as we are concerned, anyone can come to Christ.
    You're right that only God knows whom He has predestined for salvation. And since we don't know, we should preach the Gospel to all and let Him draw efficaciously whomever, in our hearing, He will. (cf. Eph. 1:5, 11)(pointer;4947)
    A creature that has no free will cannot be fallen.
    Humanity is fallen and spiritually dead from Adam. (cf. Gen. 6:5, Ps. 51:5, Jer. 13:23, Rom. 3:10-11, Rom. 8:7-9, Eph. 2:3, 1 Cor. 2:14)(pointer;4947)
    Eve chose to listen to the serpent, and Adam chose to listen to Eve.
    Certainly. They had the power to sin and the power not to sin.
    (pointer;4947)
    Those who come to Christ do so of their own free will.
    That's not what the Bible says. The fall caused all descendants of Adam to lose the posse non peccare (power not to sin).(pointer;4947)
    This means that they must voluntarily give up control of their lives to follow Christ, and not turn back to do their own will, if they are to be saved.
    What you're saying contradicts the Scriptures I referenced above. Fallen man is incapable of this outside of regeneration.(pointer;4947)
    No-one should suppose that they can become Christian without a fundamental decision to forever give up ownership of their lives; it is a decision made in fear and trembling, or it is not good enough. No-one can suppose that they can live their lives without fear and trembling, and call themselves Christians.
    So do we justify ourselves? Can we ever make ourselves "good enough" and worthy to be called Christians?(pointer;4947)
    The Catholic, in the old days, often lived in fear and trembling, but without any assurance of salvation, and the power that this gives. The Calvinist convinces himself (or tries to convince others) that he is saved, and has no real fear of God for that reason. So all the Calvinist has is outward works and appearances; on the Day of Judgement, the fearing Catholic of the old days will be nearer to salvation than the Calvinist.
    You misjudge that which you do not understand. :pray:Maranatha...
     
  15. pointer

    pointer New Member

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    (graceforums;4990)
    [​IMG] How 'bout I just respond to what you've already stated?
    I agree. I thought it was quite formidable enough.
    The fall caused all descendants of Adam to lose the posse non peccare (power not to sin).
    So how can there be guilt?
    So do we justify ourselves?
    Certainly not. What a strange question.
     
  16. graceforums

    graceforums New Member

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  17. pointer

    pointer New Member

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    (graceforums;4995)
    Romans 3:19-20 James 2:10...the better question would be "how can there NOT be guilt?"
    Very easily, if mankind other than Adam and Eve has no alternative but to sin.
     
  18. graceforums

    graceforums New Member

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  19. pointer

    pointer New Member

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    (graceforums;5000)
    Romans 9:13-24"Is there unrighteousness with God?"
    Again, a very surprising question. I take it that it is agreed that all mankind sins and all are culpable and answerable for their own personal sins.
     
  20. graceforums

    graceforums New Member

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    (pointer;5001)
    Again, a very surprising question. I take it that it is agreed that all mankind sins and all are culpable and answerable for their own personal sins.
    "I take it that..." = eisegesisVerses 15 and 16 (building on v. 11) are crystal clear that it's all about the will of God and nothing about the will of man.Shalom.
     
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