Im interested in the present day Christian understanding regarding this.Time is relative, and is created by God. Therefore the Almighty is not bound by the limits of time.Questions such as "where did God come from" aren't valid as it implies God is restricted by time.So what we experience as time, i.e. the comparison of one state of light and matter to another, the past, the present and the future.. to God is not even a moment.Does God know the future?If He does, to what level of detail does He know about the future?Does He know who's going to heaven and who's going to hell?Did He plan our futures or does he have some influence on it?If He doesn't know our futures, does that not contradict that he is all knowing and limit God in his abilities?Thanks in advance for your thoughts..
Free will vs Predestination
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(bruv;22701)
Im interested in the present day Christian understanding regarding this.Time is relative, and is created by God. Therefore the Almighty is not bound by the limits of time.Questions such as "where did God come from" aren't valid as it implies God is restricted by time.So what we experience as time, i.e. the comparison of one state of light and matter to another, the past, the present and the future.. to God is not even a moment.Does God know the future?
Yes
If He does, to what level of detail does He know about the future?
God knows the future because He decreed all that would happen, not because He learns.
Does He know who's going to heaven and who's going to hell?
Yes. The Bible tells us that God created the wicked for the day of destruction.
Did He plan our futures or does he have some influence on it?
All things are predestined by God. Doctrine of Absolute Predestination[url=http://Absolute Predestination
If He doesn't know our futures, does that not contradict that he is all knowing and limit God in his abilities?
Yes.
Thanks in advance for your thoughts..
No problem.
Im interested in the present day Christian understanding regarding this.Time is relative, and is created by God. Therefore the Almighty is not bound by the limits of time.Questions such as "where did God come from" aren't valid as it implies God is restricted by time.So what we experience as time, i.e. the comparison of one state of light and matter to another, the past, the present and the future.. to God is not even a moment.Does God know the future?
Yes
If He does, to what level of detail does He know about the future?
God knows the future because He decreed all that would happen, not because He learns.
Does He know who's going to heaven and who's going to hell?
Yes. The Bible tells us that God created the wicked for the day of destruction.
Did He plan our futures or does he have some influence on it?
All things are predestined by God. Doctrine of Absolute Predestination[url=http://Absolute Predestination
If He doesn't know our futures, does that not contradict that he is all knowing and limit God in his abilities?
Yes.
Thanks in advance for your thoughts..
No problem.
(J.M.;22716)
Yes. The Bible tells us that God created the wicked for the day of destruction..
That seems to contradict:9The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.God wants us ALL to be saved - but he's given us the free will to choose Him or not. What sort of loving God would create some people for the sole purpose of sending them to hell to be tortured for all eternity?
Yes. The Bible tells us that God created the wicked for the day of destruction..
That seems to contradict:9The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.God wants us ALL to be saved - but he's given us the free will to choose Him or not. What sort of loving God would create some people for the sole purpose of sending them to hell to be tortured for all eternity?
(Peacebewithyou;22721)
That seems to contradict:9The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.God wants us ALL to be saved - but he's given us the free will to choose Him or not. What sort of loving God would create some people for the sole purpose of sending them to hell to be tortured for all eternity?
Who is the us in the passage but believers? Are you going to hijack this thread or can we stay on topic? If God knows the future He knew that He was creating a mass of mankind that would never accept or ever have the chance to accept the Gospel and be sent to hell. Jakes God doesn't know the future and therefore isn't the God of the Bible.bruv, if you read the passage Jake quoted Peter is writting to believers.jm
That seems to contradict:9The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.God wants us ALL to be saved - but he's given us the free will to choose Him or not. What sort of loving God would create some people for the sole purpose of sending them to hell to be tortured for all eternity?
Who is the us in the passage but believers? Are you going to hijack this thread or can we stay on topic? If God knows the future He knew that He was creating a mass of mankind that would never accept or ever have the chance to accept the Gospel and be sent to hell. Jakes God doesn't know the future and therefore isn't the God of the Bible.bruv, if you read the passage Jake quoted Peter is writting to believers.jm
(J.M.;22733)
Who is the us in the passage but believers? Are you going to hijack this thread or can we stay on topic? If God knows the future He knew that He was creating a mass of mankind that would never accept or ever have the chance to accept the Gospel and be sent to hell. Jakes God doesn't know the future and therefore isn't the God of the Bible.bruv, if you read the passage Jake quoted Peter is writting to believers.jm
Hyjack this thread? I was discussing predestination vs. free will which IS the topic of the thread.
Again, I ask you: What sort of LOVING God would predestin some of his children to spend an eternity in hell? According to you these ones were created for this very purpose - to spend an eternity being tormented in hell through no fault of their own - because how can they be faulted for not choosing God when He predestined them NOT to choose Him.That is NOT compatable with the God of the Bible. "For God so loved the WORLD (not just the ones he chose, but the entire WORLD) that He gave His only begotten Son that whosoever believes in Him will not perish but have everlasting life." God loves us all so much. He even loves those in hell and desired them to be saved, " 9The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance." but he gave us all free will and they choose NOT to love Him back. There is a BIG difference between "knowing" the future (as God surely does) and CAUSING the future. Does God know who will choose to reject Him? Yes, of course. Did he "cause" them to reject Him? Not at all. It was their own choice.
Who is the us in the passage but believers? Are you going to hijack this thread or can we stay on topic? If God knows the future He knew that He was creating a mass of mankind that would never accept or ever have the chance to accept the Gospel and be sent to hell. Jakes God doesn't know the future and therefore isn't the God of the Bible.bruv, if you read the passage Jake quoted Peter is writting to believers.jm
Hyjack this thread? I was discussing predestination vs. free will which IS the topic of the thread.
(J.M.;22733)
If God knows the future He knew that He was creating a mass of mankind that would never accept or ever have the chance to accept the Gospel and be sent to hell. Jakes God doesn't know the future and therefore isn't the God of the Bible.bruv, if you read the passage Jake quoted Peter is writting to believers.jm
This is an absolutely absurd statement it not only is wrong it shows no knowledge of Gods plan what so ever. It is so far out of context of being anything even close to God. If this is an example of what you think about Gods abilities. Im glad I follow Jakes God.
If God knows the future He knew that He was creating a mass of mankind that would never accept or ever have the chance to accept the Gospel and be sent to hell. Jakes God doesn't know the future and therefore isn't the God of the Bible.bruv, if you read the passage Jake quoted Peter is writting to believers.jm
This is an absolutely absurd statement it not only is wrong it shows no knowledge of Gods plan what so ever. It is so far out of context of being anything even close to God. If this is an example of what you think about Gods abilities. Im glad I follow Jakes God.
To answer the question of this Topic Free will or predestination it is bothEveryone has free will to chose who they will follow. Only the Elect are predestined however they still have free will. So it is with all of us we have free will as Christians we understand there is a penalty to pay for not following God. Some of us may be of the Elect but we do not know it yetSome of us will be put on trial before the Antichrist. We are told in Mark Not to premeditate what we will say because the Holy spirit will speak through us. (just as in Acts) but we are warned that if we refuse this Holy spirit it is blaspheme of the holy spirit (unforgivable sin) and will never be forgiven so if God warns even the Elect that this sin is possible then they still have free will or they wouldn't be able to deny The Holy spirit.
(Peacebewithyou;22762)
Who is Jake?
preciousmessage J.M. was refering another thread post by preciousmessage (Jake)
Who is Jake?
preciousmessage J.M. was refering another thread post by preciousmessage (Jake)
I agree with J.M he provided very good respones..
YesQuote:If He does, to what level of detail does He know about the future? God knows the future because He decreed all that would happen, not because He learns.Quoteoes He know who's going to heaven and who's going to hell? Yes. The Bible tells us that God created the wicked for the day of destruction.Quoteid He plan our futures or does he have some influence on it? All things are predestined by God. To view links in this forum your post count must be 1 or greater. Your post count is 0 momentarily.To view links in this forum your post count must be 1 or greater. Your post count is 0 momentarily.Quote:If He doesn't know our futures, does that not contradict that he is all knowing and limit God in his abilities? Yes.Quote:Thanks in advance for your thoughts.. No problem.
YesQuote:If He does, to what level of detail does He know about the future? God knows the future because He decreed all that would happen, not because He learns.Quote
oes He know who's going to heaven and who's going to hell? Yes. The Bible tells us that God created the wicked for the day of destruction.Quoteid He plan our futures or does he have some influence on it? All things are predestined by God. To view links in this forum your post count must be 1 or greater. Your post count is 0 momentarily.To view links in this forum your post count must be 1 or greater. Your post count is 0 momentarily.Quote:If He doesn't know our futures, does that not contradict that he is all knowing and limit God in his abilities? Yes.Quote:Thanks in advance for your thoughts.. No problem.So then whats the point of free will? So you think if is be wicked it is Gods fault??then why is their any kind of judgement sense God alredy decided? For that matter why study the Word if God has alredy decided?Why are we even here why didnt God just kill the wicked and leave the Good??
(kriss;22767)
So then whats the point of free will? So you think if is be wicked it is Gods fault??then why is their any kind of judgement sense God alredy decided? For that matter why study the Word if God has alredy decided?Why are we even here why didnt God just kill the wicked and leave the Good??
This earth was created to be a forum for the outworking of Gods eternal purpose in christ..eph 38Unto me, who am less than the least of all saints, is this grace given, that I should preach among the Gentiles the unsearchable riches of Christ; 9And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ: 10To the intent that now unto the principalities and powers in heavenly places might be known by the church the manifold wisdom of God, 11According to the eternal purpose which he purposed in Christ Jesus our Lord: All things [ including earth, adam and everything] was created by christ and for him...to serve his eternal purpose:col 116For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him: 17And he is before all things, and by him all things consist. 18And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence. So christ may have preeminence in all things , not adam, not creation, but christ..
So then whats the point of free will? So you think if is be wicked it is Gods fault??then why is their any kind of judgement sense God alredy decided? For that matter why study the Word if God has alredy decided?Why are we even here why didnt God just kill the wicked and leave the Good??
This earth was created to be a forum for the outworking of Gods eternal purpose in christ..eph 38Unto me, who am less than the least of all saints, is this grace given, that I should preach among the Gentiles the unsearchable riches of Christ; 9And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ: 10To the intent that now unto the principalities and powers in heavenly places might be known by the church the manifold wisdom of God, 11According to the eternal purpose which he purposed in Christ Jesus our Lord: All things [ including earth, adam and everything] was created by christ and for him...to serve his eternal purpose:col 116For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him: 17And he is before all things, and by him all things consist. 18And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence. So christ may have preeminence in all things , not adam, not creation, but christ..
(bruv;22701)
Im interested in the present day Christian understanding regarding this.Time is relative, and is created by God. Therefore the Almighty is not bound by the limits of time.
And that my friend is your first wrong assumption - and where you start to go down the slippery slide.Nobody has ever lived outside of time nor can prove that there was a time outside of time, or that God indeed is outside of time. When you can prove that God can simultaneously live in the past, present and future - you will have proved that all logic fails - since it is logically impossible to live simultaneously (at the same time) in the past, present and future - which are different times.
Im interested in the present day Christian understanding regarding this.Time is relative, and is created by God. Therefore the Almighty is not bound by the limits of time.
And that my friend is your first wrong assumption - and where you start to go down the slippery slide.Nobody has ever lived outside of time nor can prove that there was a time outside of time, or that God indeed is outside of time. When you can prove that God can simultaneously live in the past, present and future - you will have proved that all logic fails - since it is logically impossible to live simultaneously (at the same time) in the past, present and future - which are different times.
wingnut the relativity of time has been proven in the modern age and has been mentioned in religious texts, and even pondered upon by early philosophers.I'm with J.M with this..I'm also with Kriss in the sense that its both. The way I see it, right here, right now I do have free will. I am choosing the words I type. I could type something evil, but I choose to type something good.For that I am gratefull to God for allowing me to have performed a good act and and to protect me from Satan.When I pray I pray that God guides me, I could choose not to pray.. But again I am greatful that God has guided me.Now can an evil person say God did not guide him? Yes they can. And God will have good reason for not guiding him.Can an evil person blame God for not guiding him? No they can't. Man had free will. He just had to act upon it.A teacher in a class for example. He teaches a group of students. Does the teacher know who will pass the exam? In most cases, yes.. or at least he has a very good idea based on the attitudes of the pupils. Does the teacher love his pupils, Yes.. The teacher wants all his students to pass. But as the course progresses he will help those who ask for help, and dislike those that mess around.lunchtime.. sorry I have to run.. But you know what I mean.. If a mortal teacher knows, and has influence over the success of his student, just imagine how much knowledge and influence the Almighty, Most powerful, most Loving has on us and our futures.Its why we pray for guidance.. As its only Him who can guide us to the right path.Sorry for long post.. I get carried away and am fascinated by this subject.. Look forward to your responses.
a couple of good mp3s on the subject that was easy to understand and made sense..timelessness and the reality of fate part 1timelessness and the reality of fate part 2
Bruv I agree with everything you wrote in your last post on free will.Questions such as "where did God come from" aren't valid as it implies God is restricted by time.The Bible is silent on this, except to say God existed forever.So what we experience as time, i.e. the comparison of one state of light and matter to another, the past, the present and the future.. to God is not even a moment.A thousand years is with God as a day (2 Pet 3:8). But this does not say that time does not exist for God - a thousand years is still like a day to Him. Just because time as we know it came into existence when the universe came into being, does not mean we can say time of some sort did not exist before the Big Bang/Creation. Nobody who believes in predestination has ever been able to prove (to my satisfaction) that God is somehow "outside of time" - because there is nothing in our universe outside of time - and what is outside our universe is unknown. Even God does not claim to be outside of time.Does God know the future?Can God see the future, live in the future like we live in the present. No!!!!!God can see the future, just like a builder can look on a plot of land and "see" a house standing there, because he owns the land, has permission and power to do anything he likes to the land. As to the tiny details like which brick will go where, the builder does not have a clue - neither does God as to the small details. He sorts them out as he goes along, as long as all goes along according to His overall will.If He does, to what level of detail does He know about the future?God knows that he has an overall plan, which needs x number of saints. So He calls x++. Some respond, some don't. Thus God will fill the "wedding feast" even if those originally invited reject his invitation. The details, God sorts out in real time - the time we live in.Does He know who's going to heaven and who's going to hell?Hell no!!! God would have all to be saved (i.e. that is His stated will). Every newborn baby has a chance to be saved. Some folks just don't want to be saved. Thus they enjoy this life - and God is not obliged to give them more.Did He plan our futures or does he have some influence on it?Only Jeremiah, Paul, John the Baptist and one or two others were foreknown in the womb, and empowered with Holy Spirit. They had crucial roles to play in God's plan. The rest of us do not have our futures planned by God. He does not have one "will" for our lives. He works with us as we live, as we respond to Him or not.If He doesn't know our futures, does that not contradict that he is all knowing and limit God in his abilities?Here we come to another big unproven assumption - that God's all knowing-ness extends into the future. Frankly, I cannot say strongly enough - that is BULL!! God knows all that can be known at present - and nobody can prove God knows how many hairs you will have on your head in 20 years time. If God wants you to have a certain number of hairs, to fulfill His purpose, He has the power to bring it to pass. But if its not part of His plan, your hairline will do its own thing - and some will no doubt fall out due to stress.The moment one ASSUMES that God knows the future - you are on the slippery slide to saying that God knows that some innocent newborn baby is already a coal in hell. Which is such an insult to the good and kind God who would have all to be saved.
The moment one ASSUMES that God doesn't knows the future, you become what's called an Open Theist - you are on the slippery slide to saying that God doesn't know that His plan for mankind can be accomplished. The arguments against God knowing the future isn't Biblical, but based on emotion, "...some innocent newborn baby is already a coal in hell." Mankind is born in sin and no one is innocent. The Bible is silent on what happens to the babies of pagan parents, but those who believe God take comfort in His covenant to save.
Open theism, also known as free will theism, is a theological movement that has developed within Evangelical and post-evangelical Protestant Christianity as a response to certain ideas regarded by some as a synthesis of Greek philosophy and Christian theology. Several ideas within Classical theism (a designation which is not to be taken as inclusive of all of orthodox theism) state that God is immutable, impassible, and timeless. Classical Theists also believed that God fully determines the future; thus, humanity does not have libertarian free will, or, if free, that its freedom must necessarily be compatible with God's determining actions.
Open Theism attacks The Atonement by presenting a God that is ineffecutal in bringing about His plan. This false teaching helps us to hide Our Hidden Idolatries of pride, etc. by placing God into the service of man. One only needs to examine the THE HERMENEUTICS OF "OPEN THEISM" to see how faulty this system is.jmPS: Those are links above. :angel10:
Open theism, also known as free will theism, is a theological movement that has developed within Evangelical and post-evangelical Protestant Christianity as a response to certain ideas regarded by some as a synthesis of Greek philosophy and Christian theology. Several ideas within Classical theism (a designation which is not to be taken as inclusive of all of orthodox theism) state that God is immutable, impassible, and timeless. Classical Theists also believed that God fully determines the future; thus, humanity does not have libertarian free will, or, if free, that its freedom must necessarily be compatible with God's determining actions.
Open Theism attacks The Atonement by presenting a God that is ineffecutal in bringing about His plan. This false teaching helps us to hide Our Hidden Idolatries of pride, etc. by placing God into the service of man. One only needs to examine the THE HERMENEUTICS OF "OPEN THEISM" to see how faulty this system is.jmPS: Those are links above. :angel10:
I agree that God knows the future - because He is beyond time. We have all the examples of fufilled prophecies in scripture to show that God does know the future. Jesus knew that Judas would betray Him. He knew that Peter would deny Him three times and then the cock would crow. Did he cause Peter to deny Him? No, that was Peter's free will - but God knew He would.
(savedbygrace57;22771)
This earth was created to be a forum for the outworking of Gods eternal purpose in christ..eph 38Unto me, who am less than the least of all saints, is this grace given, that I should preach among the Gentiles the unsearchable riches of Christ; 9And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ: 10To the intent that now unto the principalities and powers in heavenly places might be known by the church the manifold wisdom of God, 11According to the eternal purpose which he purposed in Christ Jesus our Lord: All things [ including earth, adam and everything] was created by christ and for him...to serve his eternal purpose:col 116For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him: 17And he is before all things, and by him all things consist. 18And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence. So christ may have preeminence in all things , not adam, not creation, but christ..
Most of these verse are completly out of context and dont even mean what you are claiming them to.
This earth was created to be a forum for the outworking of Gods eternal purpose in christ..eph 38Unto me, who am less than the least of all saints, is this grace given, that I should preach among the Gentiles the unsearchable riches of Christ; 9And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ: 10To the intent that now unto the principalities and powers in heavenly places might be known by the church the manifold wisdom of God, 11According to the eternal purpose which he purposed in Christ Jesus our Lord: All things [ including earth, adam and everything] was created by christ and for him...to serve his eternal purpose:col 116For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him: 17And he is before all things, and by him all things consist. 18And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence. So christ may have preeminence in all things , not adam, not creation, but christ..
Most of these verse are completly out of context and dont even mean what you are claiming them to.
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