Freedom To Sin

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marks

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I'm hearing this routinely, that those who teach that we are fully and completely forgiven of our sins, past, present, and future, by the same token preach that we are free to sin "all we want", that "sins don't matter", that we take a light view of sin in some way.

The topic of Gnosticism has come up again. How often have I been called Gnostic? I have no idea. I've heard this for years. But the historical Gnostics were something else altogether.

People bring up the passages which talk about "former sins", as if these sentences were lifted out of their historical place, and were talking about their own lives, some point in each of our lives where we say, "My former sins". We can talk about those.

We can talk about the notion of how a 'creature condemned in sin' is at the same time united by God's Spirit to Himself. Forgiveness must be total, because God is Holy. We can discuss how any incomplete forgiveness has to discount God's holiness.

There is justification, not only declaring us innocent and righteous, but giving birth to us, sharing God's Own nature, righteous and holy. We can talk about that if you want.

What I mostly want to talk about is this idea that believing we are completely and permanently forgiven of all sin past present future somehow releases us into a cesspool of sinning.

I don't see that.

In the first place, well, here's a poll I think I know how everyone will answer.

Do you want to commit sin? Do you wake up in the morning thinking, OH, I hope I can get in some sinning today! Maybe even a little depravity? Anyone?

Or is it more like what Paul said,

Romans 5:18-21 to 6:1-7 KJV
18) Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.
19) For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.
20) Moreover the law entered, that the offence might abound. But where sin abounded, grace did much more abound:
21) That as sin hath reigned unto death, even so might grace reign through righteousness unto eternal life by Jesus Christ our Lord.
1) What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound?
2) God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?
3) Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?
4) Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
5) For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:
6) Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.
7) For he that is dead is freed from sin.

Aren't these more what we want?

Romans 5:1-2 KJV
1) Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ:
2) By whom also we have access by faith into this grace wherein we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God.

What I like talking about is how when we come to understand that there really IS no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus, that this unlocks our faith to stand in His grace.

Much love!
 

CharismaticLady

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I'm hearing this routinely, that those who teach that we are fully and completely forgiven of our sins, past, present, and future, by the same token preach that we are free to sin "all we want", that "sins don't matter", that we take a light view of sin in some way.

The topic of Gnosticism has come up again. How often have I been called Gnostic? I have no idea. I've heard this for years. But the historical Gnostics were something else altogether.

People bring up the passages which talk about "former sins", as if these sentences were lifted out of their historical place, and were talking about their own lives, some point in each of our lives where we say, "My former sins". We can talk about those.

We can talk about the notion of how a 'creature condemned in sin' is at the same time united by God's Spirit to Himself. Forgiveness must be total, because God is Holy. We can discuss how any incomplete forgiveness has to discount God's holiness.

There is justification, not only declaring us innocent and righteous, but giving birth to us, sharing God's Own nature, righteous and holy. We can talk about that if you want.

What I mostly want to talk about is this idea that believing we are completely and permanently forgiven of all sin past present future somehow releases us into a cesspool of sinning.

I don't see that.

In the first place, well, here's a poll I think I know how everyone will answer.

Do you want to commit sin? Do you wake up in the morning thinking, OH, I hope I can get in some sinning today! Maybe even a little depravity? Anyone?

Or is it more like what Paul said,

Romans 5:18-21 to 6:1-7 KJV
18) Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.
19) For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.
20) Moreover the law entered, that the offence might abound. But where sin abounded, grace did much more abound:
21) That as sin hath reigned unto death, even so might grace reign through righteousness unto eternal life by Jesus Christ our Lord.
1) What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound?
2) God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?
3) Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?
4) Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
5) For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:
6) Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.
7) For he that is dead is freed from sin.

Aren't these more what we want?

Romans 5:1-2 KJV
1) Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ:
2) By whom also we have access by faith into this grace wherein we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God.

What I like talking about is how when we come to understand that there really IS no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus, that this unlocks our faith to stand in His grace.

Much love!

I do not see verified that anything other than our willful PAST sins of lawlessness are automatically cleansed.

2 Peter 1:2-11
2 Grace and peace be multiplied to you in the knowledge of God and of Jesus our Lord, 3 as His divine power has given to us all things that pertain to life and godliness, through the knowledge of Him who called us by glory and virtue, 4 by which have been given to us exceedingly great and precious promises, that through these you may be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust.

5 But also for this very reason, giving all diligence, add to your faith virtue, to virtue knowledge, 6 to knowledge self-control, to self-control perseverance, to perseverance godliness, 7 to godliness brotherly kindness, and to brotherly kindness love. 8 For if these things are yours and abound, you will be neither barren nor unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ. 9 For he who lacks these things is shortsighted, even to blindness, and has forgotten that he was cleansed from his old sins.

10 Therefore, brethren, be even more diligent to make your call and election sure, for if you do these things you will never stumble; 11 for so an entrance will be supplied to you abundantly into the everlasting kingdom of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.
 

Truman

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We are justified: instant, and are born-again of the Spirit, can't sin.
We are sanctified: progressive; can't help but sin.
We are glorified: tba

Believing that sanctification is instant is a very dangerous deception. I'd get down on my knees and beg you to reconsider...if I could. :)
 

marks

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We are justified: instant, and are born-again of the Spirit, can't sin.
We are sanctified: progressive; can't help but sin.
We are glorified: tba

Believing that sanctification is instant is a very dangerous deception. I'd get down on my knees and beg you to reconsider...if I could. :)

In the sense that we are reborn righteous children of God, I think this is the sanctification which is performed in our justification. We are recreated in God's pattern. But then comes renewing the mind, learning how to consistently think in the knowledge that sin is rendered powerless.

I've found all kinds of ways to try to address the sins of the flesh. Power of will, developing better habits, not putting myself in tempation's way, making commitments to God, "praying my way through it", that is, to endure the temptations or afflictions white-knuckling it as I a pray for help, and keeping my mind distracted.

What I've found that gives me freedom and victory in all cases, is that when I feel my peace slipping, my love failing, my confident hope dimishinging, I recall to mind,

God is here with me, He made me to live in His love, and will never leave me. He never condemns me, and will always always always continue His work in my life to make my outside reveal my inside. Which is exactly what I want, and we are in full cooperation.

This trust gives me instant victory, the just shall live by faith.

Much love!
 

Truman

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The way the Lord and I arrived at my inner circumcision was walking out Luke 9:23. I understand this to mean death to self. As a result, I state fact when I say, "It is no longer I that live, but Christ that lives in me, and the life I now live, I live by faith in the Son of God, who gave Himself for me." The apostles taught this 2,000 years ago. This is my piece of the puzzle, I guess. :)
 

Waiting on him

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In the sense that we are reborn righteous children of God, I think this is the sanctification which is performed in our justification. We are recreated in God's pattern. But then comes renewing the mind, learning how to consistently think in the knowledge that sin is rendered powerless.

I've found all kinds of ways to try to address the sins of the flesh. Power of will, developing better habits, not putting myself in tempation's way, making commitments to God, "praying my way through it", that is, to endure the temptations or afflictions white-knuckling it as I a pray for help, and keeping my mind distracted.

What I've found that gives me freedom and victory in all cases, is that when I feel my peace slipping, my love failing, my confident hope dimishinging, I recall to mind,

God is here with me, He made me to live in His love, and will never leave me. He never condemns me, and will always always always continue His work in my life to make my outside reveal my inside. Which is exactly what I want, and we are in full cooperation.

This trust gives me instant victory, the just shall live by faith.

Much love!
I personally believe that the only sin we can commit against God is to not have faith in Him, and this is impossible being He is solely responsible for sustaining our faith. I can certainly transgress against fellow humans, but He lovingly encourages against this by encouraging me to want to model after His treatment towards me. Hope this makes sense.
 

marks

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I personally believe that the only sin we can commit against God is to not have faith in Him, and this is impossible being He is solely responsible for sustaining our faith. I can certainly transgress against fellow humans, but He lovingly encourages against this by encouraging me to want to model after His treatment towards me. Hope this makes sense.
This does make sense to me, and you've said something like this before. I'm still thinking on this, but it does make sense to me.

Where there is no law, there is no transgression.

Much love!
 

Enoch111

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I'm hearing this routinely, that those who teach that we are fully and completely forgiven of our sins, past, present, and future...
The correct biblical teaching is that we are forgiven of our PAST sins at the point of repentance, and faith in Christ for our salvation. Present and future sins must be addressed by the believer on a daily basis.

JOHN 1: HOW CHRISTIANS MUST CONTINUE IN FELLOWSHIP WITH GOD
1 That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon, and our hands have handled, of the Word of life;
2 (For the life was manifested, and we have seen it, and bear witness, and shew unto you that eternal life, which was with the Father, and was manifested unto us.)
3
That which we have seen and heard declare we unto you, that ye also may have fellowship with us: and truly our fellowship is with the Father, and with his Son Jesus Christ.
4 And these things write we unto you, that your joy may be full.
5 This then is the message which we have heard of him, and declare unto you, that God is light, and in him is no darkness at all.
6 If we say that we have fellowship with him, and walk in darkness, we lie, and do not the truth:
7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.
8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.
9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.

The misunderstanding comes from the fact that all our sins were laid on Christ, and He paid the penalty for them all. But repentance is for the remission of sins, and Christ Himself said this, and this was repeated by the apostles. So present and future sins must be repented of.
 

CoreIssue

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Christ died on the cross for past, present and future sins. Otherwise, your nailing him to the cross again and again and again.

As well, what you're saying means that if you die before repenting of new sins you go to hell.

John 1 is talking about those that were never saved, cults. Those that never came into the light and continued to walk in darkness.
 

marks

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The correct biblical teaching is that we are forgiven of our PAST sins at the point of repentance, and faith in Christ for our salvation. Present and future sins must be addressed by the believer on a daily basis.
I never realized you thought this.

So then if you forget to confess a sin, are you lost?

Much love!
 
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Waiting on him

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This does make sense to me, and you've said something like this before. I'm still thinking on this, but it does make sense to me.

Where there is no law, there is no transgression.

Much love!
His law would be Love Him and my neighbor as myself, this is a very interesting statement. Especially the part about my neighbor.

I was on a job two summers ago, I go to this single wide mobile home. It was really pathetic, man and his wife living there in this small home with their adult children and many grandchildren. In the back yard where the airconditioning that I’m working on is is a wood deck. The deck is up to the the railing with trash rotten meat soiled diapers.

In the back yard stood me the grandfather the son and the son in law. I asked the three if they ever attended church, surprisingly they responded yes, but not for some time.

I lovingly told them I wanted to help, but I needed there help as well. I further said that these little ones are looking to you men as models, pointing out all the trash.. I told him I would return soon as he alerted me the trash was cleared, and even offered to help if the task was to overwhelming.

I was out numbered three to one marks, but scripture says to lay holy hands on them, and I was prepared fo fight if needed.

I was amassed upon going back three days later and seeing the reform. Ta he man has even gotten a job since and is no longer on welfare.
 

marks

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As well, what you're saying means that if you die before repenting of new sins you go to hell.
Someone came up with the term, "Lucky Repentance", I think it fits pretty good. This idea that you have to obtain new forgiveness for recent sins. The hope then is that you are fortunate to die between confessing and repenting, and your next sin, and not before you have the chance to repent/confess your latest sin.

Thinking you have to conform to a standard in order to continue as God's child is subjecting your self to a self-imposed law, and living under law inflames the passions of the flesh, making it a more prominent distraction, more internal pressure to sin that must be overcome.

However, when we realize we truly are free from Law and free from condemnation, the flesh gets real quiet like, as the Spirit overcomes.

Much love!
 

Amazed@grace

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I'm hearing this routinely, that those who teach that we are fully and completely forgiven of our sins, past, present, and future, by the same token preach that we are free to sin "all we want", that "sins don't matter", that we take a light view of sin in some way.

The topic of Gnosticism has come up again. How often have I been called Gnostic? I have no idea. I've heard this for years. But the historical Gnostics were something else altogether.

People bring up the passages which talk about "former sins", as if these sentences were lifted out of their historical place, and were talking about their own lives, some point in each of our lives where we say, "My former sins". We can talk about those.

We can talk about the notion of how a 'creature condemned in sin' is at the same time united by God's Spirit to Himself. Forgiveness must be total, because God is Holy. We can discuss how any incomplete forgiveness has to discount God's holiness.

There is justification, not only declaring us innocent and righteous, but giving birth to us, sharing God's Own nature, righteous and holy. We can talk about that if you want.

What I mostly want to talk about is this idea that believing we are completely and permanently forgiven of all sin past present future somehow releases us into a cesspool of sinning.

I don't see that.

In the first place, well, here's a poll I think I know how everyone will answer.

Do you want to commit sin? Do you wake up in the morning thinking, OH, I hope I can get in some sinning today! Maybe even a little depravity? Anyone?

Or is it more like what Paul said,

Romans 5:18-21 to 6:1-7 KJV
18) Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.
19) For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.
20) Moreover the law entered, that the offence might abound. But where sin abounded, grace did much more abound:
21) That as sin hath reigned unto death, even so might grace reign through righteousness unto eternal life by Jesus Christ our Lord.
1) What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound?
2) God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?
3) Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?
4) Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
5) For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:
6) Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.
7) For he that is dead is freed from sin.

Aren't these more what we want?

Romans 5:1-2 KJV
1) Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ:
2) By whom also we have access by faith into this grace wherein we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God.

What I like talking about is how when we come to understand that there really IS no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus, that this unlocks our faith to stand in His grace.

Much love!

I don't see that.
Nor do I.
Titus 1:2

God chose us before the foundation,creation, of the world. Hence the identity afforded that, "Elect of God."

God being sovereign, he cannot deny himself.
We can fall away, stumble, whatever, but God is eternal. And he died to insure the Elect eternal life in him.

He knows all things eternally. I believe when he Elected us to eternal salvation, wrote our names in his book of life, he did so because he knew us before the beginning. John 10:27
God cannot deny himself.

When he chose us before creating the world, I do not believe there to be anything we think we can do that would cause him to revoke the promise.
God is not a man that he should lie. :) Hallelujah, Lord God almighty.
 

marks

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When he chose us before creating the world, I do not believe there to be anything we think we can do that would cause him to revoke the promise.
God is not a man that he should lie. :) Hallelujah, Lord God almighty.

Amen! Not a man that He should lie! In Him is no darkness at all! Neither shadow of turning!

I love the place in Malachi, He says, "I YHWH change not, therefore you, O Jacob, are not consumed!"

1 Corinthians 1:30-31 KJV
30) But of him are ye in Christ Jesus, who of God is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption:
31) That, according as it is written, He that glorieth, let him glory in the Lord.

He is our righteousness, and He doesn't change!

Much love!
 

Hidden In Him

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The topic of Gnosticism has come up again. How often have I been called Gnostic? I have no idea. I've heard this for years. But the historical Gnostics were something else altogether.


I've never thought of you as a Gnostic. You believe in the power of grace to remove sin out of a believer's life, which is an entirely different thing than what Gnosticism teaches. The Gnostics of old taught that "sin" was an arbitrary term altogether, and that the only reason sexual fornication and even mass orgies were considered as "ungodly" was because of the judgmentalism of orthodox Christian teachings.

Very different things.
What I mostly want to talk about is this idea that believing we are completely and permanently forgiven of all sin past present future somehow releases us into a cesspool of sinning.

Again, it is a matter of doctrine. True Christian teachings will still identify sin as sin. Gnostic teachings will identify it as not being sin.
 
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Waiting on him

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Hebrews 11:3 KJV
[3] Through faith we understand that the worlds were framed by the word of God, so that things which are seen were not made of things which do appear.
 
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Hidden In Him

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God chose us before the foundation,creation, of the world. Hence the identity afforded that, "Elect of God."

God being sovereign, he cannot deny himself.
We can fall away, stumble, whatever, but God is eternal. And he died to insure the Elect eternal life in him.

He knows all things eternally. I believe when he Elected us to eternal salvation, wrote our names in his book of life, he did so because he knew us before the beginning. John 10:27
God cannot deny himself.

When he chose us before creating the world, I do not believe there to be anything we think we can do that would cause him to revoke the promise.
God is not a man that he should lie. :) Hallelujah, Lord God almighty.


This is rank heresy from head to toe. He did not choose who would be saved before the foundation of the world. As I told you, the Lamb was slain before the foundation of the world. Two entirely different things.

And as for the notion that since God "chose" us from the foundation of the world for salvation we are presumably saved regardless of whether we engage in sin or not, that is a damnable teaching sister, and it will send souls to Hell if you teach it. I'm sorry for having to put it so bluntly, and you will likely not answer me yet again, but when we are dealing with the salvation or damnation of men, the kid gloves have to come off.
 
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Waiting on him

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Nor do I.
Titus 1:2

God chose us before the foundation,creation, of the world. Hence the identity afforded that, "Elect of God."

God being sovereign, he cannot deny himself.
We can fall away, stumble, whatever, but God is eternal. And he died to insure the Elect eternal life in him.

He knows all things eternally. I believe when he Elected us to eternal salvation, wrote our names in his book of life, he did so because he knew us before the beginning. John 10:27
God cannot deny himself.

When he chose us before creating the world, I do not believe there to be anything we think we can do that would cause him to revoke the promise.
God is not a man that he should lie. :) Hallelujah, Lord God almighty.
Most fail to understand, He created the worlds.
 
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