Freewill and Choice have NOTHING to dowith Salvation

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Benoni

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Sorry I am on vacation but look at the context and content of Eph. 2 and you will see by the context men are dead in trustpasses and sin which addresses this subject. First God must quicken by God because they are dead and then God saves them by His grace not before. Carnal man is dead... Spiritual dead how can any thing dead choose anything?
Brother Mike;72422]I agree logabe!!!. epistemaniac:Benoni Benoni[SIZE=4]Seems like a big Paradox Brothers. [/SIZE]In the beginning was the Word the word was with God and the Word was God. The Word preached is God calling them. They can refuse. They can said:
Joh 12:47 [/B]And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world. (Not just the chosen but those that believe)Joh 12:48 He that rejecteth (Purposeful action taken) me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day. Jesus Is Lord
 

Tambora

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John 6(44) No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.This same Jesus later said: John 12(32) And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me.Was Jesus lifted up?You bet your boots He was!!!!Epistemaniac has already graciously posted this scripture that ties in: John 3(14) And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up:(15) That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.If you cross reference this with the serpent lifted up in the wilderness in Numbers chapter 21, you will see how the word of God ties together beautifully.For all things written previously were for our learning (Romans 15:4).You must let all of scripture speak the message to you.
 

Tambora

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The title of this thread:Freewill and Choice have NOTHING to do with Salvation Well, apparently it had everything to do with these folks .... Ezekiel 3(17) Son of man, I have made thee a watchman unto the house of Israel: therefore hear the word at my mouth, and give them warning from me.(18) When I say unto the wicked, Thou shalt surely die; and thou givest him not warning, nor speakest to warn the wicked from his wicked way, to save his life; the same wicked man shall die in his iniquity; but his blood will I require at thine hand.(19) Yet if thou warn the wicked, and he turn not from his wickedness, nor from his wicked way, he shall die in his iniquity; but thou hast delivered thy soul.(20) Again, When a righteous man doth turn from his righteousness, and commit iniquity, and I lay a stumblingblock before him, he shall die: because thou hast not given him warning, he shall die in his sin, and his righteousness which he hath done shall not be remembered; but his blood will I require at thine hand.(21) Nevertheless if thou warn the righteous man, that the righteous sin not, and he doth not sin, he shall surely live, because he is warned; also thou hast delivered thy soul. Ezekiel 18(20) The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him.(21) But if the wicked will turn from all his sins that he hath committed, and keep all my statutes, and do that which is lawful and right, he shall surely live, he shall not die.(22) All his transgressions that he hath committed, they shall not be mentioned unto him: in his righteousness that he hath done he shall live.(23) Have I any pleasure at all that the wicked should die? saith the Lord GOD: and not that he should return from his ways, and live?(24) But when the righteous turneth away from his righteousness, and committeth iniquity, and doeth according to all the abominations that the wicked man doeth, shall he live? All his righteousness that he hath done shall not be mentioned: in his trespass that he hath trespassed, and in his sin that he hath sinned, in them shall he die.(25) Yet ye say, The way of the Lord is not equal. Hear now, O house of Israel; Is not my way equal? are not your ways unequal?(26) When a righteous man turneth away from his righteousness, and committeth iniquity, and dieth in them; for his iniquity that he hath done shall he die.(27) Again, when the wicked man turneth away from his wickedness that he hath committed, and doeth that which is lawful and right, he shall save his soul alive.He sums it up nicely: Ezekiel 33(18) When the righteous turneth from his righteousness, and committeth iniquity, he shall even die thereby.(19) But if the wicked turn from his wickedness, and do that which is lawful and right, he shall live thereby.If you choose to believe that one in a good standing with God cannot lose that standing, you have fallen for the lie of Satan.“You shall not surely die”.And if you choose to believe that one who is not in good standing with God cannot choose differently, then you do not believe God when He says, "Choose life" (Deut 30:19).All things written were for our learning.
 

manumuskin

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I think the main problem with this issue is we as mortals tend to look at this from a time perspective of before and after.God knows no time and he has truly seen the end from the bginning.He knows who will accept his offer of salvation and who will not from the beginning.Him knowing who will accept is not the same as making them accept.If we had no say in this then why bother to witness as Jesus told us we should.God knows who will listen and who will not so in that sense it is predetermined but this does not mean we do not have a say.Once we have accepted then our say is done,then we are truly slaves of Christ.We can do nothing to earn our salvation and we can do nothing to keep it or lose it but in a sense we were slaves from the beginning because he already knew we would be slaves.This slavery surely beats what my ancestors went through in Egypt.I'll gladly say Massa to Jesus anyday and I'm glad he foreknew me even though he didn't forforce me:)Al
 

logabe

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John 1:13, 13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God. It is not the will of the flesh; it is not the will of man; it is not blood lineage. It is done only by the will of God. Of all the gospel writers, John makes the clearest case for God’s sovereignty. Was John unaware of the debate over free will? No, for this issue was debated just as hotly in his day as it is in ours. There were three Judean schools of thought in those days. The Essenes believed that God was totally sovereign. The Sadducees believed that man had total free will. The Pharisees were in the middle, believing that God “helps” people to do good. These same schools of thought have come down to us today. Of course you recall in Ephesians 1:11 that God does all things by the counsel of His own will. Ephesians 1:11, 11 In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will. It is interesting to me that God has to stand on the sidelines wringing His hands, hoping that people will turn to Him. He stands there in despair when things do not go His way, but the devil has no such constraints. “The devil made me do it,” because (they say) the devil is not a gentleman, but God is. God set the rules limiting Himself and His own will in the affairs of men, so He cannot do anything about our decisions. However, the devil has free will, they say, even if God does not. The devil has not set any rules for himself, so he is free to impose his will upon everyone. When the spirit of God inhabits your body, you still sin because of your own free will, right? But when the devil inhabits your body and you still sin, then you have no free will – the devil made you do it. Why is this? We are told that the devil can override your free will, but then God cannot. Is that not interesting? Is it any wonder that in the end the devil wins at least 99% of humanity? Logabe
 

manumuskin

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I have never read anywhere in scripture that satan can override my free will.He didn't make Adam sin and he can't make me sin.sin is in my body and a condition i am born under but satan did not cause that,Adams disobedience caused it,if anyone other then myself makes me sin it would be Adam but I fear each individual missing of the mark is my own fault even though Adam seen to that I incline in that direction.The only time i could see satan making a person sin is in the case of demon posession and I don't believe a person can be posessed unless they open themselves up to it in the first place and if people are indeed forced to sin by satan i don't believe God would hold them accountable for that anyway but then what is force?Torture,I don't think so,you still have a choice,taking over ones soul,yes that could force your body to do it but then again who is doing it?you or the one who has taken over your body?I believe things done under posession are done by the demons therein and not by the people themselves but then again i don't believe demons can cohabit a body with the Sprit of God therein.Sadly I think the dirty things i do cannot be blamed on Adam though maybe indirectly,nor Satan because he cannot force me nor demons because I am not posessed and would not be guilty of the action if I was,no Sir,I am the only one who makes me do dirty things:-( I wish it was otherwise but then again I am not condemned eternally for these things but may reliquish rewards for the acts thereof at the bema judgement seat of Christ.I may wind up a pauper when i could have been rich in the kingdom.The top will be on bottom and the bottom on top there i fear.Al
 

Butch5

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Benoni said:
The religious word freewill; the reason I call it religious word because the word freewill is not in the scripture when it comes to man's salvation.

Oh sure you can find the word Freewill in the OT when it comes to the Hebrew Freewill offering; BUT that feast has nothing to do with basic salvation.

It is not a matter of freewill; (we are saved by grace not freewill) free will is a non scriptural word. God call/calls/draws/drags people which is totally contrary to the religious man made doctrine from Rome. God draws us or if you dig a little harder He drags us; there is NO FREE WILL when you are being drawn or dragged in fact it totally to the contrary.

Romans 3:11
There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.

John 6:44
"No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws
(drag Greek) him, and I will raise him up at the last day

1670 helkuo (hel-koo'-o); drag



Romans 9:12 It was said to her that the elder [son] should serve the younger [son]) 13 As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated (held in [1] relative disregard in comparison with My feeling for Jacob).)

14 What shall we conclude then? Is there injustice upon God's part? Certainly not!

15 For He says to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy and I will have compassion (pity) on whom I will have compassion.) 16 So then [God's gift] is not a question of human will and human effort, but of God's mercy.

[It depends not on one's own willingness nor on his strenuous exertion as in running a race, but on God's having mercy on him.] 17 For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, I have raised you up for this very purpose of displaying My power in [dealing with] you, so that My name may be proclaimed the whole world over.

18 So then He has mercy on whomever He wills (chooses) and He hardens (makes stubborn and unyielding the heart of) whomever He wills. 19 You will say to me, Why then does He still find fault and blame us [for sinning]? For who can resist and withstand His will? 20 But who are you, a mere man, to criticize and contradict and Why have you made me thus? 21 Has the potter no right over the clay, to make out of the same mass (lump) one vessel for beauty and distinction and honorable use, and another for menial or ignoble and dishonorable use?

Your use of John 6 and Romans 9 does not support your claim. John 6 is speaking of the disciples and Romans 9 is speaking of the Jews.
 

Butch5

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Benoni said:
Sorry I am on vacation but look at the context and content of Eph. 2 and you will see by the context men are dead in trustpasses and sin which addresses this subject. First God must quicken by God because they are dead and then God saves them by His grace not before. Carnal man is dead... Spiritual dead how can any thing dead choose anything?

Brother Mike;72422 said:
I agree logabe!!!.


epistemaniac:




Benoni


Benoni


Seems like a big Paradox Brothers.

In the beginning was the Word the word was with God and the Word was God. The Word preached is God calling them. They can refuse. They can't believe if they don't hear. Faith comes by hearing the Word of God, and we are saved by grace THROUGH faith in what we choose to believe. For some did not choose to believe. Rom 10:13-


Joh 12:47 And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world. (Not just the chosen but those that believe)
Joh 12:48
He that rejecteth (Purposeful action taken) me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day.


Jesus Is Lord

Dead is trespasses and sin is a metaphor, the person is not spiritually dead. There is nothing in Scripture that speaks of being spiritually dead. Paul is simply using a metaphor to express the condition of the lost.
 

Jordan

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Butch5, LOL!

Dead is trespasses and sin is a metaphor, the person is not spiritually dead. There is nothing in Scripture that speaks of being spiritually dead. Paul is simply using a metaphor to express the condition of the lost.

This is nothing but a joke? You can't be serious. Matthew 7:15-20, Luke 13:3, Luke 13:5, Ezekiel 18:4, Ezekiel 18:20, Amos 8:11-12, John 12:47-48, John 3:16-18

And Christ did speak of "spiritually dead" and so did the OT scriptures so your view is refuted.
 

Nomad

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Butch5 said:
There is nothing in Scripture that speaks of being spiritually dead.

Yes, "dead in trespasses and sins" is certainly a metaphor. It describes perfectly how mankind was rendered spiritually incapacitated by the fall of Adam. Scripture does in fact make reference to this state of being. For example:

1Co 2:14 The natural person does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are folly to him, and he is not able to understand them because they are spiritually discerned.

Rom 8:7 For the mind that is set on the flesh is hostile to God, for it does not submit to God's law; indeed, it cannot.


Again, as can be seen from the preceding verses, "dead" is an inappropriate metaphor for spiritual injury. Rather, it's a metaphor that points to total spiritual inability. In other words, dead is dead. It never means partially alive.
 

Butch5

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Nomad said:
Butch5 said:
There is nothing in Scripture that speaks of being spiritually dead.

Yes, "dead in trespasses and sins" is certainly a metaphor. It describes perfectly how mankind was rendered spiritually incapacitated by the fall of Adam. Scripture does in fact make reference to this state of being. For example:

1Co 2:14 The natural person does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are folly to him, and he is not able to understand them because they are spiritually discerned.

Rom 8:7 For the mind that is set on the flesh is hostile to God, for it does not submit to God's law; indeed, it cannot.


Again, as can be seen from the preceding verses, "dead" is an inappropriate metaphor for spiritual injury. Rather, it's a metaphor that points to total spiritual inability. In other words, dead is dead. It never means partially alive.

Actually, the verses you post do not support your claim. It says the carnal man cannot understand Spiritual things, it says nothing about being dead. Romans 8:7 speaks of the mind set on the flesh, Why can't it submit? Because it is set on the flesh.

Now, if you want to use Paul's metaphor to say that one is spiritually dead then please explain Paul's use here.

Romans 7:9-11 ( KJV )
For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died.
And the commandment, which was ordained to life, I found to be unto death.
For sin, taking occasion by the commandment, deceived me, and by it slew me.

Are we to understand that Paul was spiritually alive and then spiritually dead and then spiritually alive again? Or it is just a metaphor for one's inability to help oneself?


Romans 7:14 ( KJV )
For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin.

Are we to understand that Paul could not understand Spiritual things? He says he was carnal.
 

Butch5

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Jordan said:
Butch5, LOL!

Dead is trespasses and sin is a metaphor, the person is not spiritually dead. There is nothing in Scripture that speaks of being spiritually dead. Paul is simply using a metaphor to express the condition of the lost.

This is nothing but a joke? You can't be serious. Matthew 7:15-20, Luke 13:3, Luke 13:5, Ezekiel 18:4, Ezekiel 18:20, Amos 8:11-12, John 12:47-48, John 3:16-18

And Christ did speak of "spiritually dead" and so did the OT scriptures so your view is refuted.

Maybe you could show me where a single one of those verses you posted speaks of spiritual death.
 

Nomad

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Sorry Butch. I see nothing in your reply that makes "dead" an appropriate metaphor for wounded and partially alive. Dead is a complete cessation of life and therefore ability. The verses I presented have everything to do with complete spiritual inability that is the result of being dead in trespasses and sins. They demonstrate this quite clearly. Dead is dead. Period.
 

Christina

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Nomad said:
Butch5 said:
There is nothing in Scripture that speaks of being spiritually dead.

Yes, "dead in trespasses and sins" is certainly a metaphor. It describes perfectly how mankind was rendered spiritually incapacitated by the fall of Adam. Scripture does in fact make reference to this state of being. For example:

1Co 2:14 The natural person does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are folly to him, and he is not able to understand them because they are spiritually discerned.

Rom 8:7 For the mind that is set on the flesh is hostile to God, for it does not submit to God's law; indeed, it cannot.


Again, as can be seen from the preceding verses, "dead" is an inappropriate metaphor for spiritual injury. Rather, it's a metaphor that points to total spiritual inability. In other words, dead is dead. It never means partially alive.

Its not that I disagree exactly its just a very technical way to see it.
I just dont think its the only way to see it

Death is separation. A physical death is the separation of the soul from the body. Spiritual death, which is of greater significance, is the separation of the soul from God. In Genesis 2:17, God tells Adam that in the day he eats of the forbidden fruit he will “surely die.” Adam does fall, but his physical death does not occur immediately; God must have had another type of death in mind—spiritual death. This separation from God is exactly what we see in Genesis 3:8. When Adam and Eve heard the voice of the Lord, they “hid themselves from the presence of the LORD God.” The fellowship had been broken. They were spiritually dead.
A man without Christ is spiritually dead. Paul describes it as “being alienated from the life of God” in Ephesians 4:18. (To be separated from life is the same as being dead.)
When we are born again, the spiritual death is reversed. Before salvation, we are dead (spiritually), but Jesus gives us life. “And you He made alive, who were dead in trespasses and sins,” (Ephesians 2:1). “When you were dead in your sins and in the uncircumcision of your sinful nature, God made you alive with Christ. He forgave us all our sins” (Colossians 2:13).

The book of Revelation speaks of a “second death,” which is a final (and eternal) separation from God. Only those who have never experienced new life in Christ will partake of the second death (Revelation 2:11; 20:6, 14; 21:8).
 

HammerStone

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Matthew 16:17
And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven.

This would be exactly what Paul is talking about. Paul alone persecuted Christians; Paul with God wrote the New Testament. We are nothing (dead) without the grace of Almighty God. Paul is alive because he has the Spirit of God, the Holy Spirit.

Romans 8:1-2
There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.

So yes, Paul is warring within himself between the spiritual and carnal. As the good book says, the wages of sin is death. God is the God of the living, not the dead. Those without are dead, and that is why death is the result from the very beginning.
 

Butch5

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Nomad said:
Sorry Butch. I see nothing in your reply that makes "dead" an appropriate metaphor for wounded and partially alive. Dead is a complete cessation of life and therefore ability. The verses I presented have everything to do with complete spiritual inability that is the result of being dead in trespasses and sins. They demonstrate this quite clearly. Dead is dead. Period.

Spiritual death or Spiritual inability? The two are different. Paul uses dead as a metaphor, that is clearly shown in the Scriptures I posted. One is not Spiritually alive and then dead and then alive again. Alive and dead are just metaphors, dead in Eph 2 means they were unable to do anything about there sins and trespasses.
 

Butch5

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Christina said:
Nomad said:
Butch5 said:
There is nothing in Scripture that speaks of being spiritually dead.

Yes, "dead in trespasses and sins" is certainly a metaphor. It describes perfectly how mankind was rendered spiritually incapacitated by the fall of Adam. Scripture does in fact make reference to this state of being. For example:

1Co 2:14 The natural person does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are folly to him, and he is not able to understand them because they are spiritually discerned.

Rom 8:7 For the mind that is set on the flesh is hostile to God, for it does not submit to God's law; indeed, it cannot.


Again, as can be seen from the preceding verses, "dead" is an inappropriate metaphor for spiritual injury. Rather, it's a metaphor that points to total spiritual inability. In other words, dead is dead. It never means partially alive.

Its not that I disagree exactly its just a very technical way to see it.
I just dont think its the only way to see it

Death is separation. A physical death is the separation of the soul from the body. Spiritual death, which is of greater significance, is the separation of the soul from God. In Genesis 2:17, God tells Adam that in the day he eats of the forbidden fruit he will “surely die.” Adam does fall, but his physical death does not occur immediately; God must have had another type of death in mind—spiritual death. This separation from God is exactly what we see in Genesis 3:8. When Adam and Eve heard the voice of the Lord, they “hid themselves from the presence of the LORD God.” The fellowship had been broken. They were spiritually dead.
A man without Christ is spiritually dead. Paul describes it as “being alienated from the life of God” in Ephesians 4:18. (To be separated from life is the same as being dead.)
When we are born again, the spiritual death is reversed. Before salvation, we are dead (spiritually), but Jesus gives us life. “And you He made alive, who were dead in trespasses and sins,” (Ephesians 2:1). “When you were dead in your sins and in the uncircumcision of your sinful nature, God made you alive with Christ. He forgave us all our sins” (Colossians 2:13).

The book of Revelation speaks of a “second death,” which is a final (and eternal) separation from God. Only those who have never experienced new life in Christ will partake of the second death (Revelation 2:11; 20:6, 14; 21:8).

Where do the Scriptures teach of one being Spiritually dead? If one was Spiritually dead wouldn't Jesus have said, you must be resurrected of the Spirit? But He didn't He said you must be "Born" of the Spirit. Think about this, Jesus said you must be born of the Spirit, yet when speaking of the body (which had already been born) He speaks of resurrection.
 

Christina

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Death is separation. A physical death is the separation of the soul from the body. Spiritual death, which is of greater significance, is the separation of the soul from God.
As you say this is most often used as a metaphor the bible is full of them ...
And the second death is the death of the soul ... that is to be spirtually dead and physically dead
 

Butch5

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Christina said:
Death is separation. A physical death is the separation of the soul from the body. Spiritual death, which is of greater significance, is the separation of the soul from God.
As you say this is most often used as a metaphor the bible is full of them ...
And the second death is the death of the soul ... that is to be spiritually dead and physically dead

My point is that the Scriptures don't speak of Spiritual death. You said death is a separation, can you give me Scripture to show it is used this way?
 

Christina

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Sure when the flesh is dead the spirit returns to the Lord ...We are not made of flesh alone
when we die our spirit returns to the Lord.

1 Cor 5:6 Therefore [we are] always confident, knowing that, whilst we are at home in the body, we are absent from the Lord:

2Cr 5:8 We are confident, [I say], and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.

Col 2:5 For though I be absent in the flesh, yet am I with you in the spirit, joying and beholding your order, and the stedfastness of your faith in Christ.