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freewill is bogus

Discussion in 'Christian Debate Forum' started by DPMartin, Oct 2, 2017.

  1. Richard_oti

    Richard_oti Well-Known Member

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    Luke 16:19-26. Of which, such can also be seen in the book of Enoch.

    So in a way, perhaps both are right from their various perspectives, one thinks it is dreadful...
     
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  2. bbyrd009

    bbyrd009 Groper

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    ya. Meshak, Shadrak, and Abed~nego didn't seem to have any problems lol
     
  3. amadeus

    amadeus Well-Known Member

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    I had not even really considered the ego. That's just man looking at himself effectively as his own best friend or his own savior. Instead of a one on one thing [one man to himself], it's like men forming their own corporate body of what they consider "good" things to do his own thing and to solve their own problems. This corporate body is depicted perhaps in the group of people building the tower of Babel [Gen 11]to make a name for themselves as one body opposed which really quite opposed to [anti-Christ] the One Body of Jesus connected firmly to and in subjection to Jesus as the Head.
     
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  4. perrero

    perrero Active Member

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    I would refer to the story of Lazarus on this one. Luke 16:20
     
  5. perrero

    perrero Active Member

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    Such a thing as the Las Vegas shooting.
     
  6. perrero

    perrero Active Member

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    I'm sorry I wasn't clear on this issue.
    I do agree with you that God is involved in this world. But to what extent? If He saves everyone from the shootings, the hurricanes, the earthquakes, etc. etc. He might as well change everything so that the world is like He originally design it to be. (Eden). Somewhere in all this, man is suffering the results of the sin, death and degradation of this planet. Call it judgment, genetic curse, a dying world, global warming (which is the biggest hoax of our days), aging or bad luck, the fact is that from the beginning man has suffered because of Adam's choice. Mixed within this is the plan of God, who is not willing that any should perish. Which means yes, He is involved. Christ who came and walked among us is evidence of that. But I believe His involvement is not based on the calamities that may arise but more so on anything necessary to bring an individual to repentance and salvation. Would that not be God's ultimate goal?
    And when God intervenes in the lives of the unsaved should He not be fair and equitable in His ways? If it takes 2 visions and three dreams for an individual to be convinced, have faith and turn to God, I believe this measure should be same for all. Notice I said measure. Because we are all different (different backgrounds, upbringing, education, stubbornness, etc) some will require more or less convicting and wooing of the Spirit. To one a simple witness will do, to another being knocked off his horse. Each measure is equitable. But the moment He intervenes more for one than another, then I question the justice of it.
    I hope that makes some sense.
    Cheers
     
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  7. VictoryinJesus

    VictoryinJesus Well-Known Member

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    It makes sense. Thank you. I agree; repentance and salvation is the goal.
     
  8. bbyrd009

    bbyrd009 Groper

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    ya, that presents a diff image, huh. Although a drop of water on the tongue of someone supposedly surrounded by flames is immediately kind of suspicious. Meshak, Shadrak, and Abed~nego present another pov.
     
  9. bbyrd009

    bbyrd009 Groper

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    ok ya; i suggest that they amount to the same thing, in a Being to Whom physical death is completely irrelevant. Iow that is a tragedy to us, but we do not have perspective. We react to the tragedy, essentially the symptoms, rather than act to prevent the tragedy, and deal with the problem.
     
  10. VictoryinJesus

    VictoryinJesus Well-Known Member

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    Not to vere off on gun control but I agree
    with "We react to the tragedy, essentially the symptoms, rather than act to prevent the tragedy, and deal with the problem."

    Guns are not the problem; it's the hand the gun is in. Is it possible we are focused on the wrong thing if we are to prevent more mass shootings? Why not focus on the Deterioration of the family. The hatred modeled by society and those in high places. Why not focus on bitterness. How everyone is divided and angry. This is the time of selfies, social media, and being totally consumed with image and self promotion. Every one has a cell phone in their hands. Taking photos of themselves and presenting an image that all is good. Next time you are out driving; count how many people you see driving while talking on their phone (even though it is illegal). Dinners lack conversation, instead a piece of technology is the relationship. I am guilty of it myself. There is a disconnect. There is little real interaction. People are broken and in a pressure cooker. God is absent. Why the climb in the number of shootings? Let's talk about the real issue. God being stripped from everything.


    Gun control won't change anything.

    The real issue is much larger and weighter...sorry, don't know if weighter is a word. How can we lower the pressure in the pressure cooker?

    It use to be:
    Lone Ranger and Andy griffin. Now the atmosphere of entertainment is something totally different.

    That is just my opinion though.
     
    Last edited: Oct 10, 2017
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  11. bbyrd009

    bbyrd009 Groper

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    yup--hey, if you got yourself a good education, and a great job, can buy all the food you want, and bought a brick house, and got insurance on it all, and you are relying on the rule of law to keep the peace, what do you need God for, right? Your brothers go and die "so we don't have to sacrifice." The state encourages this, of course, so we will be dependent upon them and not God.

    And God is not going to interfere in that, not even a little bit, because "reap what you sow" will. You got insurance for health, so you are going to need it lol. Certainly seems completely logical to buy health insurance, don't get me wrong; at least from one perspective.

    Your health insurance is killing you, and the mechanism is not even hard to see imo. I got rich selling health insurance, and the mechanism could be described to a believer in a paragraph, the desire/purchase/perspective shift thing that occurs in people's heads.
     
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  12. bbyrd009

    bbyrd009 Groper

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    ha, lower it, i'm trying to turn it up if anything lol. Or not really--all that = "the world" to me. If you are under any pressure, or feeling the heat, or under the gun, or any of those idioms we use for death or hell, then these are signs imo, and there is not going to be anything worse than hearing words like these come out of your mouth again at your trial, in a manner of speaking, imo, whenever you think that trial might occur. (As far as i'm concerned the verdict is already in, and this trial is a spiritual thing)
     
  13. bbyrd009

    bbyrd009 Groper

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    ha, for all we know the shooting is God, intervening, as hard as that is to contemplate.
    Iow the sow/reap mechanism is working great, but we just don't want to reap what we sow.
     
  14. amadeus

    amadeus Well-Known Member

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    When I was still working as a Social Security Claims Representative and of course much younger I had an opportunity to go to work in the private sector in insurance earning a lot more money. Sales was the problem for me. I dealt with people and their Social Security benefit checks as well as their Medicare, but I did not have to sell it. I only needed to understand it and explain to people who were in the system whether they liked it or not. I stayed with Social Security because I could not deceive people to get them to buy insurance. Later, God dealt with me in a different way and I had to disconnect from Uncle Sam so as to reconnect with God.

    I am still stuck with a lot of things that at times almost undo me. I receive three checks each month on which to live. My wife receives one. All four checks are based on our work and contributions to Uncle Sam, so you see some of the connection cannot be disconnected. At nearly 74 after 17 years of retirement I cannot return to work and if I could what could I do which would be separate from the systems of the beast? So as a man I have done what I can to disconnect. Now I really have to trust God to stay on His side in spite of my connections.
     
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  15. bbyrd009

    bbyrd009 Groper

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    amen, don't we all? I read "leave the world" a lot like i read "be perfect as I am perfect," iow somewhat TIC statements that are possibly meant to point to where we really are mentally, a lot like maybe telling a 16 year old boy to not look at girls lustfully. Not a joke, exactly, but meant to point out the human condition. Like me saying "instead of chuckling at the little kid's reply, follow his advice." Sounds great, but i can't even do it, so i shouldn't be judging others who can't do it either.

    i bet the general tone in the passages @ "leave the world" and "be perfect" before those were uttered was one of judging others too, or stating some ideal from a certain perspective, "wouldn't it be great if everyone would just ________" or something, i'll have to go look now lol.

    nope--the general tone seems to be "be different."

    47And if you greet only your brothers, what are you doing out of the ordinary? Don't even the Gentiles do the same?
     
    Last edited: Oct 10, 2017
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  16. Marymog

    Marymog Well-Known Member

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    I don't understand the question.

    Mary
     
  17. aspen

    aspen “"The harvest is plentiful but the workers are few

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    A person who is in mortal sin/a fallen state is determined for Hell/can not choose good

    A person who is living in A state of Grace/in the process of being redeemed after being approached by Christ and following after Him has freewill
     
  18. bbyrd009

    bbyrd009 Groper

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    ?

    this described you once, and you chose "good."
     
  19. Marymog

    Marymog Well-Known Member

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    As long as we are alive we can choose good. Atheist. Muslim. Agnostic. Mentally ill. Even if you never heard of Jesus like the people in the remote jungles of the Amazon . It doesn't matter. Grace is given; it is not earned. ALL are living in a state of grace.

    A person who is in mortal sin can confess their sin. If you forgive the sins of any, they are forgiven them; if you withhold forgiveness from any, it is withheld. Whatever is bound on earth shall be held in heaven".

    IHS...Mary
     
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  20. aspen

    aspen “"The harvest is plentiful but the workers are few

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    I think we can confess our sins only if we are approached by Christ first - we cannot approach the Tree of Life on our own
     
    Last edited: Oct 11, 2017
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