Freewill

[aspen]

Freewill usually refers to the human capacity to choose between good and evil. The idea of freewill has problems on several levels.

It is a poor description - a better way to describe our choice is between being selfish or community-minded. Do we focus on meeting our own needs before our neighbor or are we altruistic?

Also, before the Fall, humans could only choose between good things (they did not think selfishly); afterwards, we put self first, which indicates that we could no longer choose between good things because every choice we made from that point was selfish.

Christ died for the community - everything he did was community-minded. He instructed us to be community-minded and gave us the Holy Spirit to guide us, which is great, but we are still not able to be native speakers......we still have to purposefully translate everything from selfish to community. We have to actively give up our will to hoard and act hedonistically, in order to give.

What do you all think?

 

[Wrigley]

Freewill usually refers to the human capacity to choose between good and evil. The idea of freewill has problems on several levels.

It is a poor description - a better way to describe our choice is between being selfish or community-minded. Do we focus on meeting our own needs before our neighbor or are we altruistic?

Also, before the Fall, humans could only choose between good things (they did not think selfishly); afterwards, we put self first, which indicates that we could no longer choose between good things because every choice we made from that point was selfish.

Christ died for the community - everything he did was community-minded. He instructed us to be community-minded and gave us the Holy Spirit to guide us, which is great, but we are still not able to be native speakers......we still have to purposefully translate everything from selfish to community. We have to actively give up our will to hoard and act hedonistically, in order to give.

What do you all think?

Hi Aspen,

I would say that God has given us free will.
I think with Adam & Eve they had free will and they chose to disobey God.

Would you not say that choosing to be selfish is evil? Even as believers.
Mind you I suppose that depends on what one considers to be evil.

I love your focus about community and that we have the Holy Spirit in us to guide us to walk in the ways he wants us to.

Pleased to meet you.

Bill

 

[Rollo Tamasi]

Freewill usually refers to the human capacity to choose between good and evil. The idea of freewill has problems on several levels.

It is a poor description - a better way to describe our choice is between being selfish or community-minded. Do we focus on meeting our own needs before our neighbor or are we altruistic?

Also, before the Fall, humans could only choose between good things (they did not think selfishly); afterwards, we put self first, which indicates that we could no longer choose between good things because every choice we made from that point was selfish.

Christ died for the community - everything he did was community-minded. He instructed us to be community-minded and gave us the Holy Spirit to guide us, which is great, but we are still not able to be native speakers......we still have to purposefully translate everything from selfish to community. We have to actively give up our will to hoard and act hedonistically, in order to give.

What do you all think?

Hi aspen, there are merits to what you say.
But I think it might go deeper than this, not that I have all the answers.
You use the words selfish and putting self first.
In some ways, that is necessary.
Can we truly love our neighbors if we don't love ourselves first?

1 Timothy 5:8;
"Anyone who does not provide for their relatives, and especially for their own household, has denied the faith and is worse than an unbeliever."

This passage tells us to take care of ourselves and our families so that we are not a burden to anyone else.
Then we are free to help others.

Christ dying for everyone was his choice.
We don't have that choice.
We are given different choices.

I think free will has to go deeper than thinking in terms of being selfish.
It is ego.
Ego determines the good and evil in every situation.

Think about the ego.
Is it best to give the big fat check to your church and have them look upon you as a great and generous man?
Or should you secretly give it to your sister and her husband to pay their mortgage so they don't lose their house?
This example is extreme yet the reasoning behind it is valid.

 

[aspen]

Hi Aspen,

I would say that God has given us free will.
I think with Adam & Eve they had free will and they chose to disobey God.

Would you not say that choosing to be selfish is evil? Even as believers.
Mind you I suppose that depends on what one considers to be evil.

I love your focus about community and that we have the Holy Spirit in us to guide us to walk in the ways he wants us to.

Pleased to meet you.

Bill

Nice to meet you too, Bill.

Thanks for your comment.

I believe choosing your self interests at the expense of others is the definition of sin and leads to greater evil. Eve eating the fruit was a selfish act that led to Adam's selfish act and both of their attempts to cover up their selfishness, which is another selfish act! They sacrificed their intimate relationship with God and each other by doubling down in their selfishness and God was merciful - he even gave them a false self (clothing) to help them manage their dualism (which is the mistaken perception and compulsion to run around labeling Gods good creation 'good' or 'evil' based on how it benefits self. This is why Paul has said we must overthrow the Old Man, false Self, Ego and put relationship with community first - Jesus tells us to love our neighbor as the fallen human loves himself - serve others/care for others/focus on others. When relationship with God and Neighbor is put back in the rightful place, love is magnified ten thousand times. It is no longer hedonistic, fleshly, consumeristic; instead it becomes unconditional, empathic, and (paradoxically) fully receptive to more love than the self can even imagine.

 

[aspen]

Hi aspen, there are merits to what you say.
But I think it might go deeper than this, not that I have all the answers.
You use the words selfish and putting self first.
In some ways, that is necessary.
Can we truly love our neighbors if we don't love ourselves first?

1 Timothy 5:8;
"Anyone who does not provide for their relatives, and especially for their own household, has denied the faith and is worse than an unbeliever."

This passage tells us to take care of ourselves and our families so that we are not a burden to anyone else.
Then we are free to help others.

Christ dying for everyone was his choice.
We don't have that choice.
We are given different choices.

I think free will has to go deeper than thinking in terms of being selfish.
It is ego.
Ego determines the good and evil in every situation.

Think about the ego.
Is it best to give the big fat check to your church and have them look upon you as a great and generous man?
Or should you secretly give it to your sister and her husband to pay their mortgage so they don't lose their house?
This example is extreme yet the reasoning behind it is valid.

Thank you for your comment - you've made some good points - I think I might have clarified a bit in my response to Wrigleys comment - what do you think?

 

[Wrigley]

Jesus tells us to love our neighbor as the fallen human loves himself - serve others/care for others/focus on others. When relationship with God and Neighbor is put back in the rightful place, love is magnified ten thousand times. It is no longer hedonistic, fleshly, consermeristic; instead it becomes unconditional, empathic, and (paradoxically) fully receptive to more love than the self can even imagine.

Couple of big words that I don't understand.

Amen to your post. All about love.

 

[twinc]

Couple of big words that I don't understand.

Amen to your post. All about love.

precisely because of the likes of you and I and others who do not understand and those who insist they do, but do not really, Jesus went on to elaborate and clarify what He said and meant real/true love was - twinc

 

[aspen]

God is good

 

[twinc]

Hi Aspen,

I would say that God has given us free will.
I think with Adam & Eve they had free will and they chose to disobey God.

Would you not say that choosing to be selfish is evil? Even as believers.
Mind you I suppose that depends on what one considers to be evil.

I love your focus about community and that we have the Holy Spirit in us to guide us to walk in the ways he wants us to.

Pleased to meet you.

Bill

imho what is important is to see and realize and accept that we do not have freewill, as Paul realised and Jesus also realised and did His Father's will for truly in HIM we move and live and have our being - what they both taught us but not many have realised or will willingly accept is that we must not impute to ourselves and claim the glory that really belongs to God alone for we do not even breathe but only think we do and do not also realise that we do not even think but only think we think - so come now let us reason together and give the praise and glory where it really belongs - as regards choice we choose and chose nothing, all was is chosen for us - too many glibly state and accept without examining to see if these things be so - twinc

 

[aspen]

imho what is important is to see and realize and accept that we do not have freewill, as Paul realised and Jesus also realised and did His Father's will for truly in HIM we move and live and have our being - what they both taught us but not many have realised or will willingly accept is that we must not impute to ourselves and claim the glory that really belongs to God alone for we do not even breathe but only think we do and do not also realise that we do not even think but only think we think - so come now let us reason together and give the praise and glory where it really belongs - as regards choice we choose and chose nothing, all was is chosen for us - too many glibly state and accept without examining to see if these things be so - twinc

Yeah, I think it is illusion. Without the broken lens of good (catering to our ego) and evil (depriving our ego), we would be able to love God and Neighbor without feeling deprived/isolated/last

Without sin, we are free to love unconditionally again. Unfortunately, it is impossible without Christ and the hippie movement proved it. Without Christ, we try to strip away morality and social norms and laws (believing they are the problem) and the result, once again is hedonism. Without Christ, conservatives and liberals all end in hedonism

 

[DPMartin]

Freewill usually refers to the human capacity to choose between good and evil. The idea of freewill has problems on several levels.

It is a poor description - a better way to describe our choice is between being selfish or community-minded. Do we focus on meeting our own needs before our neighbor or are we altruistic?

Also, before the Fall, humans could only choose between good things (they did not think selfishly); afterwards, we put self first, which indicates that we could no longer choose between good things because every choice we made from that point was selfish.

Christ died for the community - everything he did was community-minded. He instructed us to be community-minded and gave us the Holy Spirit to guide us, which is great, but we are still not able to be native speakers......we still have to purposefully translate everything from selfish to community. We have to actively give up our will to hoard and act hedonistically, in order to give.

What do you all think?

no aspen as usual its more of that hair brained thinking you like.

freewill in biblical context is simple, God's choice or Judgement of what is good and evil for His creation no exceptions, and man's judgement of what is good and evil, which biblically results in death. even in your posting you exercise your own judgement of what is good, not God's, yours.


if "others first" is so good then the Japanese Empire during WWII operated under the same moral, or your judgement of what is good and evil. the individual served the community first, how did that turn out?

also Jesus in the Garden before He surrendered Himself to the authorities said what?
Mat_26:39 And he went a little further, and fell on his face, and prayed, saying, O my Father, if it be possible, let this cup pass from me: nevertheless not as I will, but as thou wilt.


Jesus loved the Father first as the commandments say, though yes He loved His Apostles but it was the Father's will that put Jesus on the Cross, not the needs of man. man's needs and lack are not necessarily a concern in the fulfillment of God's Word. unless men acknowledge the need for the fulfillment of God's Word.

Jesus didn't need to be saved, but He needs to be in the Presence of the Father who is pleased with Him. any born again soul should have the same concern. the Apostles scattered when the authorities had Jesus, but after Pentecost they were emboldened with the fire that seeks to please the Lord their God. no matter what may come their way.

 

[bbyrd009]

Yeah, I think it is illusion. Without the broken lens of good (catering to our ego) and evil (depriving our ego), we would be able to love God and Neighbor without feeling deprived/isolated/last

a lot might be learned by following your dog for a day even lol

 

[bbyrd009]

Without sin, we are free to love unconditionally again. Unfortunately, it is impossible without Christ and the hippie movement proved it. Without Christ, we try to strip away morality and social norms and laws (believing they are the problem) and the result, once again is hedonism. Without Christ, conservatives and liberals all end in hedonism

Word. Fortunately Christ is a Spirit, and has many titles; Christ is likely perfectly expressed in Love Your Neighbor and even A Good Deed. Or, Christ might also be...misappropriated as a Scapegoat, or even worshipped as Nehushtan, a spiritual cousin of Scapegoat i think. Looking outside the mirror for salvation iow. Waiting for the world to change

 

[bbyrd009]

Without sin, we are free to love unconditionally again.

but we try to define that as perfect, when it means "no laws," like your dog does. see, your dog still "sins" right; it is just that he is obviously so...repentant, so sorry. If they could talk they would obviously be apologizing iow

we are called to get to a place, back to a place, where there are no laws, yet the law is fulfilled. And this does not mean that you or anyone else will stop screwing up, making mistakes, or just plain blowing it sometimes, until they gain experience and no longer do, and there is always a fresh crop of people to perpetuate the illusion that nothing is changing in anyone, when this is not true

this vision of heaven tomorrow where no sin is that we have been sold is a place of no free will where no mistakes can be made because there is a Law, and this is a poor reflection of the Kingdom of Heaven imo

 

[bbyrd009]

Freewill usually refers to the human capacity to choose between good and evil. The idea of freewill has problems on several levels.

It is a poor description - a better way to describe our choice is between being selfish or community-minded. Do we focus on meeting our own needs before our neighbor or are we altruistic?

Also, before the Fall, humans could only choose between good things (they did not think selfishly); afterwards, we put self first, which indicates that we could no longer choose between good things because every choice we made from that point was selfish.

nice--made me think of my dog again

 

[bbyrd009]

Christ died for the community - everything he did was community-minded. He instructed us to be community-minded and gave us the Holy Spirit to guide us, which is great, but we are still not able to be native speakers......we still have to purposefully translate everything from selfish to community. We have to actively give up our will to hoard and act hedonistically, in order to give.

What do you all think?

and this, Love Your Neighbor, ya! If you just treat the next stranger you meet like a long lost childhood acquaintance, even if they are not appealing to you, your life is going to immediately change. We make this into a religion, but...ha well the dog thing again, that's really what it's all about

 

[bbyrd009]

I think with Adam & Eve they had free will and they chose to disobey God.

actually imo A&E could not have had free will prior to eating the fruit--how could they? But they could have had a natural resistance or even aversion to mating with another species. just sayin here. "Free will" implies knowledge of good and evil, after all right

 

[bbyrd009]

Think about the ego.

imo these are just many different models of looking at the same thing, all useful

 

[JPPT1974]

Yeah they do seem to be very useful. If you lean on the Lord!

 

[bbyrd009]

Eve eating the fruit was a selfish act that led to Adam's selfish act and both of their attempts to cover up their selfishness, which is another selfish act! They sacrificed their intimate relationship with God and each other by doubling down in their selfishness and God was merciful - he even gave them a false self (clothing) to help them manage their dualism (which is the mistaken perception and compulsion to run around labeling Gods good creation 'good' or 'evil' based on how it benefits self.

this is just what happens when You make gods, imo. Give beings a forebrain, give them freewill, however you wanna put it. The consequences of this separation from God are quite severe, many people go insane, many others channel Hitler, many just go catatonic, etc. Look what it's done to the planet. Free will--however you define it--is a serious thing to unleash on a universe imo