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Gifts Of the Holy Spirit

Discussion in 'Christian Debate Forum' started by Brother Mike, Aug 31, 2009.

  1. Brother Mike

    Brother Mike New Member

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    Gifts of the Holy Spirit
    By Brother Mike: PART ONE Men have tried to explain these gifts though natural reasoning, so that they can understand them with natural thinking. What they have forgotten is that the Holy Ghost is not a natural person we can see, but lives in us. The Holy Ghost is supernatural. Before Jesus went to the Cross, He gave us a promise of sending he Holy Ghost. The same Holy Ghost that lived in Him. The Holy Ghost is actually God, or the power side of God. The very power that took the "Substance" of God's faith filled Words, and made it physical matter. All the planets, oceans, and even the chair you sit in was created by the Power of the Holy Ghost and God's Word. Mic 3:8 But truly I am full of power by the spirit of the LORD, and of judgment, and of might, to declare unto Jacob his transgression, and to Israel his sin. Zec 4:6 Then he answered and spake unto me, saying, This is the word of the LORD unto Zerubbabel, saying, Not by might, nor by power, but by my spirit, saith the LORD of hosts. This is GOD in you!!! 2Co 6:16 And what agreement hath the temple of God with idols? for ye are the temple of the living God; as God hath said, I will dwell in them, and walk in them; and I will be their God, and they shall be my people. We are the temple of God, as God lives in us. You have planet creating power living inside of you!!! As you can surmise, the gifts of the Holy Spirit are far from NATURAL. It is God, who can talk to you, reason with you and show you things to come. Men that try to break the gifts down into powerless natural means, forget who the Holy Spirit really is. 1Co 12:6 And there are distinctive varieties of operation [of working to accomplish things], but it is the same God Who inspires and energizes them all in all.All these gifts listed are ministry Gifts, and though they can be operated outside of a ministry setting, it is the setting Paul is describing. There are nine gifts of the Holy Spirit, To make it easy to remember I will break the gifts down into categories of three. These are my own naming conventions, you can choose to name them as you wish.3: Revelation gifts3: Power gifts3: Edification giftsI will cover each of the gifts, and how they operate. We are told to desire these spiritual gifts, (1Co 14:1) but it is the Holy Spirit that operates them, and is given to men so that they my benefit from the gift or profitPlease keep in mind, you can NOT force these gifts to operate as you will.1Co 12:11 But all these worketh that one and the selfsame Spirit, dividing to every man severally as he will. Trying to force something, or have a vision will just open the door for the devil to accommodate you. The right gift will be given, when needed. Gifts can also be combined as the Spirit Wills.
    POWER GIFTS: Faith, Healing, Miracles.
    Gift of Faith
    The gift of faith is not normal faith, it is supernatural faith, to believe and actually receive something from God. Faith comes by hearing and hearing the Word of God. God's word will create faith in you, but the gift of Faith is a supernatural that extends past what God has already made real to you in His word. (God gives the increase) (Jesus is the author of our faith) For example, I lay hands on the sick and fully expect them to recover. It is something I have meditated on in God's Word and that reality is real to me. I know the will of God concerning Healing. So, for me it would not take supernatural faith for me to step out and do that. Now if I were to be called by God to raise a dead person, that had been dead for several days, then we are talking about something that is going to have to overcome my reasoning and doubt. The gift of faith would be able to erase my objections and I Would then be able to boldly command that person to come back to life in the name of Jesus, fully expecting it to happen. Here is a good example of the gift of faith operating in the Bible. Act 4:29 And now, Lord, behold their threatenings: and grant unto thy servants, that with all boldness they may speak thy word, Act 4:30 By stretching forth thine hand to heal; and that signs and wonders may be done by the name of thy holy child Jesus. Act 4:31 And when they had prayed, the place was shaken where they were assembled together; and they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and they spake the word of God with boldness. The people around them were threating them. Its hard to preach boldly with faith and confidence when everyone around you wants to kill you. The gift of Faith gave them that boldness to preach, and the power of God even shook the place. That Gift of Faith also gave them the boldness to heal and do signs and wonders in the name of Jesus, even though the people around them were not being very nice. Summary: If you have witnessed to anyone as a Christian, then most likely you have operated in this Gift and did not even know it. When The Holy Spirit kicks on this Gift in you, buildings don't have to shake, and glass does not have to break. (Though it could) It could simply be a greater confidence, and faith rising up in you to go speak to someone Boldly about Jesus, that you would not normally feel comfortable talking to. It could even be getting up to preach the Word your fist time at church.
    Gifts of Healing
    It is pretty evident what this gift is for. This is for getting someones body healed. It is a ministry Gift. This gift is normally put on someone to be used in Healing. It is normally someone that the Holy Ghost has used before in this Area, but can operate though any believer. Jesus was anointed with this gift as we see demonstrations of him operating in the Gifts of Healing throughout the Gospel. Peter Also was Anointed with this Gift, as people lined up just to get in His shadow. (It was not the Shadow that healed them, but the anointing of God to heal surrounding Peter.) Now here is where the confusion comes about this Gift. It is different than what Jesus said here.Mar 16:17 And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues; Mar 16:18 They shall take up serpents;(Not picking up snakes!!! I'll explain it if anyone needs it explained.) and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover. What Jesus is talking about here is for every believer at any time. It is not the Gifts of Healing that is given as the Spirit of God wills. The condition is that YOU HAVE TO BELIEVE!!! If you think it's not God's will to heal everyone or that Healing is past away with the apostles, then you won't be bothered with this scripture. It's not for you. Also when Jesus Laid hands on the sick or spoke the Word to heal, we see almost immediate results at least within the hour. That is Jesus being anointed with the Gifts of Healing. This scripture says they will RECOVER. That means healing could take a considerable time longer, even months but they will recover. I have experienced both when laying hands on someone in the name of Jesus. Instant healing, or a process of recovery. Most of the time it is a process of recovery. It is still God's Word, The Holy Spirit, and the authority of the name of Jesus that speeds up recovery and destroys all forms of sickness and disease. When someone is anointed with the Gifts of Healing, they will feel it in their body, in their hands, all over. When you lay hands on someone to be healed you will feel the power of God go from you to that person. EXPERIENCE: one night after preaching, a young girl came up to give her life to Jesus. She had never been to church much, and did not know much about anything. She gave her life to the Lord, and I was about to step down from the pulpit when she grabbed me and asked if God would heal her. Because of drugs, she has severely ulcerated her stomach and was always in terrible pain. She already had a surgery, but was going back in to see if they could do more. The gifts of Healing was not operating on me, but I know that everything must bow in the name of Jesus. I told her that God would be more than happy to heal her that night. I laid my hand on her stomach and told the devil to get his hands off her, and hurt her no more, I told her stomach to be healed in the name of Jesus. She was healed instantly in this case, and has not had pain since. Summary: There are many different instances of healing in the bible. I wish I could devote more time, but we are talking about a specific Gift that operates as the Spirit wills. Normally the Gift's of Healing are used in a ministry setting. Don't confuse this with just obeying Jesus, when He said you can lay hands on the sick. Don't go to the Hospital and try to heal all the patients, It does not work that way, and I wish I could explain more.
    Gift of Miracles
    I have never operated in this Gift. I know it's real, and I am open to it's operation. The Gift of Miracles is used by God to change the molecular structure of something, or to cause something impossible to happen, that would defy the scientific laws of man. Joh 2:9 When the ruler of the feast had tasted the water that was made wine, and knew not whence it was: (but the servants which drew the water knew;) the governor of the feast called the bridegroom, Joh 2:10 And saith unto him, Every man at the beginning doth set forth good wine; and when men have well drunk, then that which is worse: but thou hast kept the good wine until now. Joh 2:11 This beginning of miracles did Jesus in Cana of Galilee, and manifested forth his glory; and his disciples believed on himThere are many examples in the Bible about the Gift of Miracles in operation. Jesus walking on water, The loaves of bread and fishes being multiplied, The Red sea parting, and so on. This gift operates out from under the laws we understand of time and space. It is the Supernatural Power of God, overriding what we know to be true about natural law.This will operate when needed as the Spirit of God wills. Just be open and aware this Gift can and does operate. Summary: It's a cool gift, lets hope we see it more and more as the time of the end approaches. ​
    Just remember, these gifts can operate in ANY believer. You don't have to be an apostle. The scriptures say for EVERY MAN. Be open to their use and operations. 1Co 12:11 But all these worketh that one and the selfsame Spirit, dividing to every man severally as he will. Jesus Is Lord​
     
  2. Stumpmaster

    Stumpmaster Active Member

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    It has been said that the gifts of the Spirit are designed to compliment the fruit of the Spirit, and vice-versa. Sounds about right to me.
     
  3. Elaine

    Elaine Guest

    You should write a book, imo. I'm so glad you are here - I'm printing the above.I'm learning so much and have so much to understand- I opened a Bible in Jan '06.Received the Baptism of the Holy Spirit July 2 '09, a profound healing the next evening, (formally, in a church -an altar call - touched by Andrew Wommack if anyone knows him) I have had dozens of ..."visitations?' ... in my life - spontaneous, overwhelming gifts of love and insight --- altered states, would be an accurate way one could call them. Anyway, now I'd like to understand these experiences of the heavenlies through the Bible.And you're helping me. XXOO Elaine
     
  4. Brother Mike

    Brother Mike New Member

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    Elaine: God bless sister!!! I am working on the next three gifts. I will post them shortly. To write a book, I would have to learn some better grammar. My English writing is not so good. Your wrote about a healing.
    Maybe a testimony would be in order, if your up to it. XXOO back to you.Jesus on the Throne, King of Kings and is Lord!!!
     
  5. Brother Mike

    Brother Mike New Member

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    Gifts of the Holy Spirit
    By Brother Mike: part 2Edification Gifts: Tongues, Interpretation, Prophecy
    Gift of Tongues
    Tongues is a gift where you speak in a unknown Language. It is unknown to the one speaking the Tongue, but can be known by someone else.Act 2:6 Now when this was noised abroad, the multitude came together, and were confounded, because that every man heard them speak in his own language. Tongues can also be a Language that Nobody knows on earth. 1Co 14:2 For he that speaketh in an unknown tongue speaketh not unto men, but unto God: for no man understandeth him; howbeit in the spirit he speaketh mysteries. The Gift of Tongues Paul is speaking about in (1Cor 12:9) is for the ministry setting where you have groups of people. 1Co 12:7 But the manifestation of the Spirit is given to every man to profit withal. Once again this is as the Spirit Wills and not you just speaking in tongues, interrupting things. There has been great confusion with this gift, and Paul took some time to get it all sorted out. Why, because unlike the other Gifts, any believer that believes on Jesus can speak in tongues at any time. Many were just getting up to speak in tongues wanting the spotlight, and it caused confusion. The Holy Ghost has never forced anyone to speak in tongues!!! as some have claimed, while interrupting service. (I have seen this more than once.) 1Co 14:26 How is it then, brethren? when ye come together, every one of you hath a psalm, hath a doctrine, hath a tongue, hath a revelation, hath an interpretation. Let all things be done unto edifying. 1Co 14:27 If any man speak in an unknown tongue, let it be by two, or at the most by three, and that by course; and let one interpret. 1Co 14:28 But if there be no interpreter, let him keep silence in the church; and let him speak to himself, and to God. Paul tells us that While in church, Keep silent unless that Pastor or person Leading church give the OK for people to speak in tongues. Otherwise they are to speak in tongues quietly to themselves and to God.1Co 12:29 Are all apostles? are all prophets? are all teachers? are all workers of miracles? 1Co 12:30 Have all the gifts of healing? do all speak with tongues? do all interpret? The answer to the question is NO!!! Some have taken this scripture and used it to prove that not everyone can speak in tongues, but that is not what Paul was talking about. He was talking about that everyone has a place and time to function in a church setting, and it must be done decent and in order. AS the Spirit Wills. Tongues is a Gift to be used in a Church Setting where there are know people used by God to interpret the message in Tongues. Because I am just covering the Gifts mentioned in 1 Cor 12: I will not extensively cover the personal use of tongues in depth. Anyone that believes on Jesus, can speak in tongues, if they will have the faith to receive it. Mar 16:17 And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shallspeak with new tongues; To not go in to much depth, I will list some reason that we should pray in tongues. It's a subject a lot of people would like to know more about. ​
    [list type=decimal][*]
    1-When praying in Tongues we speak mysteries to God, and no man understands.​
    [/LIST]
    1Co 14:2For he that speaketh in an unknowntongue speaketh not unto men, but unto God: for no man understandeth him;howbeit in the spirit he speakethmysteries.
    Because this language comes from your born again spirit, devils can not understand what you are praying. One of the many reason Satan fights this gift so much.
    2- We don't always know what we should pray aboutRom 8:26 Likewise the Spirit also helpeth our infirmities: for we know not what we should pray for as we ought: but the Spirit itself maketh intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered. Rom 8:27 And he that searcheth the hearts knoweth what is the mind of the Spirit, because he maketh intercession for the saints according to the will of God. Now some think this means to lay around and groan, making funny noises. Most of this is just flesh. Praying in tongues allows us to pray about situations we don't fully comprehend. The Spirit of God knows everything to know about the issue. Those that yield to the gift of tongues (not just those that can speak tongues, but Yield to the Spirit of God) Will be used by God, to just pray in the Spirit. You can be sitting around home, and get this urge inside to start praying. Trying to do anything but praying will not interest you. You can still choose to disobey, but that is not good.EXPERIENCE: While sitting and writing one night, I got the urge to pray in the Spirit (Tongues) I could no longer concentrate on my writing, so I got up and started to pray. I felt in my spirit that someone was distressed. Praying in tongues seemed urgent. While I continued to pray, I saw in my spirit red lights and a emergency room. I knew to keep praying until I got a release in my spirit that things where OK. After praying awhile, I got a joyful, bubbly feeling inside my spirit. I knew the situation was taken care of. I asked God who I was praying for. (Give the interpretation) The Lord showed me it was my Grandma who had my grandpa rushed to the hospital. It was around 7:00 PM. The next day I called my grandma and asked how grandpa was doing. She was amazed I even knew what she went through that night but I told her the Lord had me pray for her and grandpa. Being a Pentecostal Women she knew what I was talking about.Not obeying can coast greatly!!!! Tongues is a powerful tool used by God to fix things we don't even know about.A very well know Pastor was on a very busy schedule. He had to rush to one meeting then to another. At the first meeting while preaching, he had a very strong urge to pray in the Spirit. He thought, that after the meeting He would pray. After the meeting He should have prayed but decided He would just rush and preach the next meeting, then pray that night. While driving with his wife to the second meeting. He could not shake the urge to pray and kept getting something in his spirit about seat belts. So, He had his wife put on her seat belt and he put on his seat belt. (There were no seat belt laws at this time.) Even after putting on his seat belt that urge to pray in tongues did not go away. He just figured the Lord would show him after the second meeting.He got to the second meeting and preached. The urge to pray went away. Right after the meeting someone came up and told him that His sister had just been killed in a car crash before the second meeting started. She did not have her seat belt on. He was told to get to the hospital right away.3- Tongues edify you. (Not anyone else) someone praying in tongues can encourage themselves in the Lord. It's a great place to start when getting bad news, or your just trying to stir up the gifts in you. I fully believe that tongues is the key to operating in the other gifts, or at least a big help to be in position to operate in them. Praying in tongues can also build your faith. (Not add faith or give faith) Praying in the Holy Ghost can also cover words you know inspired by the Holy Ghost.Jud 1:20 But ye, beloved, building up yourselves on your most holy faith, praying in the Holy Ghost, Summary: Tongues is a very powerful and useful gift. There is a use for group settings, and private settings. you can ask God to give an interpretation of what you have prayed in tongues since the mind can't understand it. tongues does not come from you head, but inside you. 1Co 14:14 For if I pray in an unknown tongue, my spirit prayeth, but my understanding is unfruitful. 1Co 14:15 What is it then? I will pray with the spirit, and I will pray with the understanding also: I will sing with the spirit, and I will sing with the understanding also. 1Co 14:13 Wherefore let him that speaketh in an unknown tongue pray that he may interpret.
    Gift of Interpretation
    I have never been used, to this point, to interpret someones tongues1Co 14:28 But if there be no interpreter, let him keep silence in the church; and let him speak to himself, and to God. 1Co 14:5 I would that ye all spake with tongues, but rather that ye prophesied: for greater is he that prophesieth than he that speaketh with tongues, except he interpret, that the church may receive edifying. This gift is for a group setting and not to be confused with interpretation of your OWN tongues. Just because God has given you the interpretation of your OWN tongues, is no indication you will be ever used to Interpret someone else's Tongues. This gift is as God Wills, and God picks the interpreter. Someone that God has used before to interpret tongues is chosen to be the interpreter. So, before speaking in tongues began, you must have this person known to be used by God present. In my own prayer group a few years back, we had a Brother that was always used this way. He would often interpret (One) person that was speaking in tongues. Also, it is not just someone who decides to speak in tongues as if they were doing their own prayer time. It is someone the Holy Ghost gives utterance to Speak a tongue in the group setting so that it may be interpreted. Lots of error has occurred mixing up personal tongues with the Gift of tongues in a group setting. Normally, the person speaking the tongue to be interpreted will speak a whole different language that sounds a lot different than they are normally used to praying in. The interpretation normally comes out as prophesy. It is always used to edify. Summary: The gift of Interpretation has it's place, and that place is to keep tongues in check during a group or Church setting. Any interpretation has the right to be judged.​
    Gift of prophecy
    This is the Gift Paul said was the better than tongues. It's not the best gift. The gift needed at the time is the best gift. There has been lots of error concerning this gift. The Greek means to foretell something, Or speaking about the future. Though prophecy can be used to foretell future events, thats not what Paul said the gift was for. We have to be very careful looking in Greek and Hebrew for meaning when the Meaning was given in the scriptures.1Co 14:4 He that speaketh in an unknown tongue edifieth himself; but he that prophesieth edifieth the church.This is a big edification Gift. It has nothing to do with future events, but can include the Word of Wisdom or knowledge. There is also a difference between this and the prophets of Old that laid the foundation of the Word of God. The prophecy spoken today will NEVER, NEVER, NEVER change God's Word. The prophecy may contradict God's Word, and we know it to be WRONG, and not from God. When someone speaks a Prophecy, there is a right to Judge it!!! Many feel that their prophesy should not be judged and nobody has a right to judge it. This puts that person in GREAT ERROR and deception. This person should be ignored. 1Co 14:29 Let the prophets speak two or three, and let the other judge. Prophecy is always inspired utterance from God. It is God himself speaking Words that people understand. It is supernatural in operation and not just a bunch of head knowledge. Prophecy can be about future or past events, It can be about direction to take, it can even be lifting up the Name of Jesus. There is the power and anointing behind any real Prophecy. Prophecy will ALWAYS edify!!!! ALWAYS!! doom and gloom prophecy is not God if you go away feeling bad, or scared, Though God can give some bad events coming up, it will be in a way that edifies. Never listen to any Prophecy given to you personally if you did not know about it first!!! Normally God will give someone Prophecy to help make clear something, but God has ALWAYS put that information in the persons heart the Prophecy was given to. The Prophecy form God helps the person understand more the importance of the thing God placed in their heart. BEWARE of familiar SPIRITS.Satan also likes to counterfeit Prophecy. For example and know person used by God my say speak that someone in the audience just got a large sum of money from a settlement and that God wants them to give the money to the them so God can bless the.Or on TV someone can say by the Spirit of the Lord, God is telling me if you Give us money, then God will bless you. If this was not in your Heart to do before, then discount IT!!! It's a scam, using God's name to get in your pocket book. Devils know things also, don't be fooled. I am not saying don't give to God, or it's wrong for a ministry to ask you to Sow money into some project. You need to follow your heart, and beware when someone says, Thus saith the Lord. This type of problem was evident in Paul's time. The people at the time got so upset with this Gift because of misuse, they would not go near it. 1Th 5:20 Despise not prophesyings. 1Th 5:21 Prove all things; hold fast that which is good. HOW DO I KNOW IF I AM GOING TO SPEAK PROPHECY!!!I have been speaking prophecy for a long time. I operate a lot of times in the office of a Prophet. Anyone can speak Prophecy though, as the Lord gives them utterance. You don't have to be a prophet. You will feel words of your spoken language come up from your heart (Spirit) it will be as if someone is talking to you (God) It will not come from you thoughts or head. It comes from your spirit (Giving by the Holy Spirit) You start speaking those first words you hear stepping out in faith. you won't have time to think about what your going to say, the words are just there and you speak them as they come up. All messages from God must go through your personality and knowledge of God's Word. So, your message from God will sound in a way that you speak or even be in Old King James Language if thats the bible your read most. It may sound Hillbilly. "ya'll thus said da Lord!!" It will take faith to just speak what is coming up. It's like tongues, but it takes thought also, unlike tongues. Summary: Prophecy is a powerful tool. It may contain future elements, Past elements, direction for you or someone else, or just praises to God in a supernatural way. It ALWAYS edifies, and never leaves a person sad or BROKE!!!Jesus Is Lord​
     
  6. Brother Mike

    Brother Mike New Member

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    Gifts of the Holy Spirit
    By Brother Mike: part 3Revelation Gifts: Wisdom, Knowledge, Spiritual discernment
    Revelation Gifts
    People will be surprised, but anyone that knows Jesus has operated in these gifts. More than they think.Knowledge: Holy Ghost telling us information of something that has happened or Is taking place in Current time. It comes as just supernaturally knowing something, the Holy Ghost told you. The gift can even help you find your car Keys. Jesus operated in this Gift several times, as He Told the Women that she had 5 husbands. Jesus just knew this by the Holy Ghost. Wisdom: Something that is going to Happen or something that is coming up. future.Joh 16:13 Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come. Paul before shipwrecked (Perceived that the voyage would be with much hurt.) Most of the time, this is also just a knowing of something, and it's easy to miss if we are not use to Hearing God. Both Gifts can come as dreams or Visions, but normally it is just knowing something, you would not normally know. Discerning of spirits: This is seeing into the realm of the Spirit. It's not used as much.2Ki 6:17 And Elisha prayed, and said, LORD, I pray thee, open his eyes, that he may see. And the LORD opened the eyes of the young man; and he saw: and, behold, the mountain was full of horses and chariots of fire round about Elisha. I have known people to see angels standing guard, others have seen devils behind someone preaching falsely or that was in bondage. Some say this gift must be in operation with visions, or dreams as that is seeing into the realm of the Spirit. It is always supernatural and not just "Feeling" someone is bad or someone is preaching falsely. That is just comparing what they say, against the truth in the Word. This is from another post,and not as Long. If anyone has questions please P.M me or ask here.Jesus Is Lord.​
     
  7. Benoni

    Benoni New Member

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    To KNOW-- literally, TO KNOW BY EXPERIENCE. It is not a mere form of head-knowledge, mental assent to a few doctrines about Him, but it is to EXPERIENCE HIM. Same word is found in John 8:32, "Ye shall know (by experience) the truth, and the truth shall make you free." Thank God, for the promise, "For the earth shall be filled with the knowledge of the glory of the LORD, as the waters cover the sea." (Habakkuk 2:14). "For all shall know Me, from the least to the greatest." (Hebrews 8: 11 ). So many of God’s people today have been seduced by an imitation anointing; the land is filled with lying signs, wonders, miracles, and prophesying by those who will one day come before the Lord, saying, “Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Thy name, and in Thy name have cast out devils, and in Thy name done many wonderful works?” Then will the Lord profess unto them, “I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity (lawlessness)” (Mat. 7:22-23). The Lord is saying, “I never knew you as Lord, I never knew you in intimacy of fellowship and vital union. You did all those works, but you did those things in my name. You did things you wanted to do and you did it as by my authority and at my word — but I had nothing to do with it! Can we not see by this that within these folks the religious soul is acting independent of the spirit. It is the spirit of Jezebel! Knowledge-- knowledge of HIM! No wonder the prophet bemoaned the fact that "My people are destroyed for lack of knowledge: because thou hast rejected knowledge." (Hosea 4:6). Without a knowledge of Him, there is no life, for "This is life eternal, that they might know Thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom Thou hast sent." (John 17:3).
     
  8. epistemaniac

    epistemaniac New Member

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    hey Mike... I am looking at what you wrote, but immediately when I saw the following I had to disagree....just know firstly that I am not seeking to find ways to disagree with you, and that which you write that I do agree with I won't probably comment on, or not as much... but just as you felt led of the Spirit to write what you wrote, I too feel led by the Spirit to respond... that is, just because i disagree with you, it does not follow that I am therefore guilty of "natural reasoning" or that I "don't believe the Scriptures" etc etc etc... and it is an accepted way of understanding the bible to say that some things are "not for today"... you probably are not out sacrificing bulls are you? Well why not? The Bible commands you to... Well because these commands do not apply to you any more as Jesus has come and He is the perfect sacrifice, so the sacrificial system is no more... well so too is it the case that many of the practices of the early church, specifically in the book of Acts, are not for today... they served their purpose of authenticating the message and the messenger, and that is all God needed them for.... in any case, just because a person disagrees with your interpretation of the Scriptures, it does not mean that they are any less spiritual or any less a devoted follower of Jesus Christ, or any less a student of Scripture as God's final, authoritative, inspired infallible word.... so just because I disagree, I do not "forget who the Holy Spirit is"... so just because something is descriptive --- ie it described the conditions during the tine of the early church ---- it does not follow that these things that are described as happening that they are therefore prescriptive --- ie that they are not prescribed or commands that Christians are to automatically do something just because a certain thing was done in the early church....you said
    True
    Not true. I challenge you to find one example in Scripture where any believer has ever created an entire planet. God is the Creator, we are not. This is part of the doctrinally incorrect mindset present in so many Word of Faith teachers who feel they can "speak into existence" all sorts of things. Well they are not God, not little gods, not God in any sense, as some of the name it claim it preachers have said..... yes the Holy Spirit indwells all believers, but this does not make anyone God simply because God dwells in them. You can see some documentation of the very serious... even polytheistic errors that some name it claim teachers have run into in the book Christianity in Crises...
    many of the OT prophets, especially Amos and Jeremiah etc proclaimed prophecies that did indeed leave people sad and broken... and Jesus and Paul both did as well... Jesus roundly criticized and condemned the Pharisees and Paul had criticized the Corinthian churches on a number of points as he prophesied to them God's word concerning the man who had his father's wife, their abuse of the gifts... and he criticized the Galatians as well indicating that some of them had left the true gospel for a false gospel... the OT and the NT are filled with prophetic words from God that are stern harsh words from the Lord, and at times, this is exactly what people need to hear... right alongside the of the message of God's love and mercy....well my wife and I have to go to a meeting being held in our town where a city ordinance allowing transsexuals and cross dressers is trying to be introduced... we will join with hundreds of other Christians protesting this... our local Christian radio station has some info on it... see http://wfrn.com/AdvanceAmerica_000.php so please pray for us...blessings,ken
     
  9. Brother Mike

    Brother Mike New Member

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    Not trying to find wrong in my post? Perhaps.
    I don't recall saying we can create planets. I think the confusion is the way I worded it. "The Holy Ghost is actually God, or the power side of God. The very power that took the "Substance" of God's faith filled Words, and made it physical matter. All the planets, oceans, and even the chair you sit in was created by the Power of the Holy Ghost and God's Word."We do have planet creating power in us!!! There is nothing in the Word about us using that power to make planets. MY thought was to get the believer to know, that God lives in them, and it's no small thing. To understand that all the power they ever need to overcome is already inside a person. For I can do all things through the anointing of Jesus that strengthens me. It was an attempt to build someones faith in knowledge of the Holy Ghost that lives in them, not design planets.
    Brother this is the issue we are having. Your Anti-Word of faith thinking and my Anti-Calvin thinking leads us to look at each others statements in our own fuzzy light. Were suspicious of each others doctrine. If you really read over my post, you will see in the section about familiar spirits, that I was warning about using prophecy for monetary gain as certain TV personalities do. I also stated very clearly that the Prophets of the Old testament were different in the fact they laid the foundation of the Word of God. We do not use prophecy today to add to the Word as some have tried. Paul said we use prophecy to edify others, not to get money out of their pocket. This gift was used in a church setting.Prophecy never left someone sad or broken, it was always given to correct in the old Testament. When Jesus spoke, it did not make them sad or broken, but made them angry for speaking such things. They should have listened. When prophecy was given by Jeremiah, it was given to people who could care less. It did not make them sad, or even take thought or else they would had hit there knees and repented and been glad. Even Jesus speaking to the rich young ruler was not trying to make him sad, but he walked away not realizing Jesus was wanting to bless him as He said no man has not given everything for the Gospels sake and not received a 100 fold NOW IN THIS TIME. The sad part is that young rich ruler was not around to hear the end of it.My whole point was that this gift is misused for personal gain, and to twist others into doing things they should not. I was trying in my limited English skills to convey that warning and not get in Error with a genuine gift. So, I stated the gift should not leave you broke after giving all your money away to some smooth talking preacher.Thank you for you thoughts on this. I assume these are the only issues you had? Love ya Brother!!! peace to your family.Jesus Is Lord.
     
  10. epistemaniac

    epistemaniac New Member

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    no "perhaps" about it... I really mean it when I say that I am not setting out to find fault with your posts.. you seem to be a sincere Christian and I have no agenda... but just as you might see something in a post of mine to disagree with, if and when you do, as this is a public forum where such ideas are supposed to be shared back and forth, whether we agree or disagree, you would indicate that you disagreed with me... for example on the issue of eternal predestination and election unto salvation for instance... well, so too, when you write or teach others something I take issue with, something that I dsagree with, then since this is a public forum, and since God's words specifically says that those who teach are held to a higher standard, if I see something I disagree with I am going to say so... I have nothing against you personally, really I don't, and by my disagreeing with you I mean you no ill will... you said
    I can understand if you want to retract your statement, but I hope that you understand that by your writing
    it looked as if you were saying that the believer, who has the Holy Spirit living within them, because of this, had the power to create planets... again, you want to rephrase/retract/clarify this statement and I appreciate that... but yet while you say that you are not wrting/teaching that we can create planets, you reiterate that we have
    so I am a bit cvonfused... why emphasize that we have planet creating power in us if not to indicate that we can create planets...? I appreciate that the Holy Spirit's presence in the believer gives them power... and its fine to say so, but when you say that there is power to create planets in us, and yet by that you don't mean that we can create planets, it seems a little odd for you to stress a certain kind of power being present in us and yet that power is not something that we are really supposed to have or really ever supposed to use specifically to create planets... its just a confusing way to go about teaching the believer that they have power within them unto sanctification and for prayer etc, but to teach that we have the power to create planets within us, and not mean by this that we can crate planets just strikes me, personally, as not very helpful in describing what the power inside is supposed to be like... you can say that the believer has God living in them, and that this is indeed no small thing, without saying that they have the power to crate planets inside them, since that only indicates that if they this kind of power inside them, it stands to reason that they ought to be able to create planets as well... but, since they can't, there must be a better analogy to use which will indicate, in reality, what the believer can or cannot do since the Holy Spirit dwells every believer... and that, since this is the case, it is no small thing for a person to have God Himself dwelling in their hearts.. but enough about that...
    I am really not trying to be suspicious of your doctrine because of where you are coming from doctrinally... in this case, your background does not require, as far as I know, to teach that in the act of prophesying, you are not to leave a person sad.. as you put it here:
    and
    Bu this simply isn't true, prophets of both the OT and the NT left people sad with what they had to say, and there was a lot of doom and gloom in what they said sometimes... because sometimes there were some harsh realities to share with people.... Jeremiah or Isaiah having to tell the Israelites that God would be using a foreign power to come and overrun their country and that the people will be taken away into bondage and slavery... Or think of Jesus sharing with his very own disciples that Jerusalem would soon be destroyed, that not one stone would be left upon another, that a woman needs to hope that she is not pregnant at that time because people are going to have to flee into the mountains to try and save themselves... these were men of God with whom Jesus was sharing this information, His closest followers... surely the knowledge that all this would happen to the city of David, that the temple would be torn down, that all that they knew and loved, their very homes, would all be taken from them... would leave them sad and indeed, this was a message full of doom and gloom for the people of Israel...and as far as Jeremiah is concerned, many people did not heed Jeremiah's warnings, but not all... for instance Jer 3:22-25 NASB "Return, O faithless sons, I will heal your faithlessness." (and the people replied:) "Behold, we come to You; For You are the LORD our God. (23) "Surely, the hills are a deception, A tumult on the mountains. Surely in the LORD our God Is the salvation of Israel. (24) "But the shameful thing has consumed the labor of our fathers since our youth, their flocks and their herds, their sons and their daughters. (25) "Let us lie down in our shame, and let our humiliation cover us; for we have sinned against the LORD our God, we and our fathers, from our youth even to this day. And we have not obeyed the voice of the LORD our God."andJer 39:16-18 NASB "Go and speak to Ebed-melech the Ethiopian, saying, 'Thus says the LORD of hosts, the God of Israel, "Behold, I am about to bring My words on this city for disaster and not for prosperity; and they will take place before you on that day. (17) "But I will deliver you on that day," declares the LORD, "and you will not be given into the hand of the men whom you dread. (18) "For I will certainly rescue you, and you will not fall by the sword; but you will have your own life as booty, because you have trusted in Me," declares the LORD.'"So where you say
    again, I mean nothing personally, but what you are teaching just does not seem to square with what the bible says... not all of the people Jeremiah spoke to were of the opinion that they just couldn't care less, and thusm, your statement that no propesy will ever leave someone sad or be filled with doom and gloom just does not square with what the bible teaches, that's all I am saying... and I just want to be faithful to the Scriptures, and I think you do too... so I am bringing things to your attention that should you come to see that what you are not teaching is in fact not exactly in line with the Scriptures that you would want to then change your teaching to better line up with the Scriptures... that is what brothers in Christ are supposed to do for one another, as iron sharpens iron etc...you say
    with this, I wholeheartedly agree... but if this was your whole point, there was no need to say that prophesy would never leave someone sad, nor would it contain elements that most would consider "doom and gloom"...you say
    Is English your second language...? No offense intended btw if it isn't... I was just wondering is that was what you meant by "limited English skills"... mine aren't so great either and English is my own language!! lol... In any case, its not that you were just saying that you disagree with someone sending all their money to to smooth talking preacher, with that I agree, its that you said that when a person engages in the gift of prophesy they will never make a person sad, that is what I was disagreeing with since it does not appear to match the biblical testimony of how prophets on both testaments operated.. I do want to say how much I appreciate that you want to strongly point out that no one who operates in the gift of prophesy today (however it is that one wants to define the term "prophesy") can add anything as far as new revelation... this is so important and I can't thank you enough for making this very clear... this is one of the biggest probelms I have with the Charismatic/Wordof Faith movement.... they forget that we cannot add to the Scriptures, and yet they preface some of their "prophecies" with "thus saith the Lord" and then they go on to make all sorts of claims in God's name... and sometimes even make predictions in God's name as Oral Roberts and others have done... and if we followed the biblical mandates for dealing with false prophets they would all be dead right now... but for now, the condemnation of what it means to be a false prophet still rests on them and that is a very scary thing indeed:Deu 18:20-22 NASB 'But the prophet who speaks a word presumptuously in My name which I have not commanded him to speak, or which he speaks in the name of other gods, that prophet shall die.' (21) "You may say in your heart, 'How will we know the word which the LORD has not spoken?' (22) "When a prophet speaks in the name of the LORD, if the thing does not come about or come true, that is the thing which the LORD has not spoken. The prophet has spoken it presumptuously; you shall not be afraid of him.I am also very thankful that you point out that while we are to earnestly desire the gifts, it is the Holy Spirit who sovereignly gives gifts to each person as He sees fit in order to build up the body of Christ... and I would add that even more than a person desiring to speak in tongues, Paul said that they should desire even more so to prophesy, that is, teach the word of the Lord in "forthtelling" versus being overly concerned with "telling the future" eg "foretelling"...as far as being the only issues I had... well... now that you asked.... ;) ... actually I have been a bit busy and have not had the chance to carefully read all that you had written... my comments thus far were based on a cursory reading... but if you would like, I can can go back over what you have written much more carefully so as to give you my opinion... bet you just can't wait!! lol... seriously, it does me good to to read posts like yours, for even when I disagree I learn something... so thanks for the opportunity to respond... in the meantime, I want to add some thingts from a favorite book of mine on the subject of a few of the gifts of the Spirit... hope these will add to your own thoughts and benefit you as well..blessings.ken
     
  11. epistemaniac

    epistemaniac New Member

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    3. The Charismata.
    Despite the difficulties involved, the various items from these texts may be conveniently grouped under three major headings: Spirit manifestations within the worshipping community; deeds of service; specific ministries. It should only be noted that, whether or not we understand the term “gifts of the Spirit” in its narrower sense (as applying only to Spirit manifestations), the goal of all charismata, in all categories, is the “building up” of the community itself, and individual members within the community. Furthermore, in its first two senses Paul makes a considerable point of the universality of such “gifting” within the Spirit-filled community.
    3.1. Gifts As Spirit Manifestations.
    This is the one certain grouping in Paul’s letters in which there is a specific connection between the Spirit and charismata. These appear chiefly to be supernatural manifestations of the Spirit within the community at worship. They can be further grouped into “miracles” as such, and “verbal utterances.”
    3.1.1. Miracles.
    Included here are three items from 1 Corinthians 12:9-10, “faith” (= the supernatural gift of faith that can “move mountains”; cf. 1 Cor 13:2), “charismata of healings” (of the physical body; also 1 Cor 12:28, 30) and “workings of miracles” (= all other such phenomena not included in healing). The use of the plurals “gifts” and “workings” for the latter two probably means that these “gifts” are not permanent, but each occurrence is a “gift” in its own right. That such phenomena were a regular part of the apostle’s own ministry is evidenced by 2 Corinthians 12:12 and Romans 15:18-19. That they were also the regular expectation of the Pauline churches is evidenced by Galatians 3:5.
    3.1.2. Inspired utterance.
    Included here are “the message of wisdom,” “the message of knowledge,” “prophecy,” “the discernments of S/spirits,” “tongues” and “the interpretation of tongues” from 1 Corinthians 12:10; “teaching” and “revelation” from 1 Corinthians 14:6; and (perhaps) “exhortation” from Romans 12:8—it might also include “singing” from 1 Corinthians 14:15 and 26 (cf. Eph 5:19; see Hymns). Attempts to distinguish some of these items from one another are generally futile, as is any distinction between their “charismatic” or “non-charismatic” expression (e.g., teaching or singing).
    The “message of wisdom” and “knowledge,” for example, is language created by the situation in Corinth. For Paul the “message of wisdom” is the preaching of the cross (see 1 Cor 1:18–2:16; the terminology occurs nowhere else). “Knowledge,” on the other hand, is closely related to “mysteries” in 1 Corinthians 13:2 and elsewhere stands close to the concept of “revelation” (1 Cor 13:8-9, 12; 14:6). Similarly, prophecy itself is closely connected to “revelation” in 1 Corinthians 14:6, and especially in 1 Corinthians 14:25, 26, 30. Are these to be understood as distinctively different gifts? Or, as seems more likely, do they suggest different emphases for the expression of the prophetic gift, since that too seems to fluctuate between “revealing mysteries” and more straightforward words of edification, comfort and exhortation (or encouragement)? In any case, the use of uninterpreted tongues in the assembly is what brought forth the whole argument, and Paul uses prophecy as representative of all other intelligible inspired utterances that are to be preferred to tongues in that setting. These two need further comment.
    3.1.2.1. Glossolalia.
    Paul’s actual term is “different kinds of tongues.” Enough is said in 1 Corinthians 13–14 to give us a fairly good idea as to how Paul understood it. (1) It is Spirit-inspired utterance; that is made plain by 1 Corinthians 12:7, 11 and 14:2. (2) The regulations for its community use in 1 Corinthians 14:27-28 make it clear that the speaker is not in “ecstasy” or “out of control.” Quite the opposite; the speakers must speak in turn, and they must remain silent if there is no one to interpret. (3) It is speech essentially unintelligible both to the speaker (1 Cor 14:14) and to the ungifted hearers (1 Cor 14:16), which is why it must be interpreted in the assembly. (4) It is speech directed basically toward God (1 Cor 14:2, 14-15, 28); one may assume, therefore, that what is interpreted is not speech directed toward others, but the “mysteries” spoken to God. (5) As a gift for private prayer, Paul held it in the highest regard (1 Cor 14:2, 4, 5, 15, 17-18).
    Whether Paul also understood it to be an actual earthly language is moot, but the overall evidence suggests not. He certainly does not envisage the likelihood of someone’s being present who might understand without interpretation; and the analogy of earthly language in 1 Corinthians 14:10-12 implies that it is not an earthly language (a thing is not usually identical with that to which it is analogous).
    3.1.2.2. Prophecy.
    Of all the Spirit charismata, this is the one mentioned most often in the Pauline letters (1 Thess 5:20; 1 Cor 11:4-5; 12–14; Rom 12:6; Eph 2:20; 3:5; 4:11; 1 Tim 1:18; 4:14; and probably “through the Spirit” in 2 Thess 2:2), implying the widest range of occurrence in the Pauline churches (see Prophecy). Although it was also a widespread phenomenon in the Greek world (see Aune), Paul’s understanding of prophecy was thoroughly conditioned by his own history in Judaism. The prophet was a person who spoke to God’s people under the inspiration of the Spirit. In Paul such “speech” consisted either of spontaneous, intelligible messages, orally delivered in the gathered assembly, intended for the edification or encouragement of the people, or of a “revelation” of some kind (Gal 2:2), which at times could expose the hearts of unbelievers and lead them to repentance. Those who prophesied were clearly understood to be “in control” (see 1 Cor 14:29-33). Although some people are called prophets, the implication of 1 Corinthians 14:24-25, 30-31 is that the gift is available—at least potentially—to all.
    But it is also clear that prophecy does not have independent authority. The combined evidence of 1 Thessalonians 5:21-22 and 1 Corinthians 12:10 and 14:29 is that all such prophesying must be “discerned” by the charismatic community. The implication in both texts is that one may believe oneself truly to be “inspired” of the Spirit, but in reality what is said may not come from the Spirit at all. Therefore, the community must test all things, holding fast to the good and dispensing with every evil expression.
    3.1.3. Their Extent in the Pauline Churches.
    The very fact that Paul can list all these items in such a matter-of-fact way, especially in 1 Corinthians 12:7-11, indicates that the worship of the early church was far more “charismatic” than has been true for most of the church’s subsequent history. Some indeed have tried to make a virtue of this lack, arguing that the more extraordinary phenomena were relatively limited in the early church—they belong to more “immature” believers like the Corinthians—and that they are no longer needed once the NT was canonized. But that quite misses the evidence in Paul, as well as his point in 1 Corinthians 13:8-13 (see Fee 1987). One may as well argue that the other Pauline churches did not celebrate the Lord’s Supper, since it is mentioned only in 1 Corinthians.
    In fact the evidence is considerable that a visible, “charismatic” dimension of life in the Spirit was the normal experience of the Pauline churches. That Paul should speak to it in a direct way only twice (1 Thess 5:19-22; 1 Cor 12–14) is the “accident” of history—only here were there problems of abuse. Indeed, the problem in Thessalonica is especially telling, since apparently there was a tendency to play down the prophetic Spirit in their gatherings; but Paul would have none of that.
    Even more telling are the offhanded, matter-of-fact ways these phenomena are mentioned elsewhere. For example, in 2 Thessalonians 2:2 Paul knows that someone has falsely informed them under the guise of his authority as to “the day of the Lord” (see Eschatology). What he does not know is the source of this false information; one possibility that automatically comes to mind is “through the Spirit” (most likely a “non-discerned” prophetic utterance). Likewise in 1 Corinthians 11:2-16 in the matter of head coverings (see Head), Paul refers to worship as “praying and prophesying,” the two primary ways of addressing God and people in the assembly. In Galatians 3:4-5 his argument rests on their past (“such remarkable experiences” BAGD) and ongoing experience of the Spirit, including “miracles.” And in the case of Timothy’s ministry (1 Tim 1:18; 4:14), his own gifting is related to prophetic utterances in the community, prophetic utterances that are so significant for Timothy that he is urged to keep up the fight in light of them (1 Tim 1:18). In none of these instances is Paul arguing for something; rather, the visible, “charismatic” expression of their common life in the Spirit is the presupposition from which he argues for something else.
    3.2. Charismata As Deeds of Service.
    This category comes from the use of charismata in Romans 12:6-8, where he includes “serving,” “giving,” “caring for” (in the sense of leadership) and “showing mercy.” To these one might also add “helpful deeds” and “acts of guidance” from 1 Corinthians 12:28 (the first word implies that some minister to the physical and spiritual needs of others in the community, while the second probably refers to giving wise counsel to the community—as a whole, not simply to other individuals). These are the least visibly “charismatic” of the “gifts,” and the least obvious as expressions of corporate worship. In fact they seem to belong rather to Paul’s ever-present interest in relationships within the church. Whether Paul himself considered these ministries as gifts of the Spirit is especially moot. In any case, they fit better in discussions of the Pauline understanding of Christian ethics and community life (see Churches, Pauline). As such, they give visible expression to the fruit of the Spirit (see Fruit of the Spirit), but Paul himself does not designate them as spiritual gifts (except by our loading the term charismata with meaning not inherent to it).
    3.3. Gifts and Ministry.
    Here is one of the more controverted areas in this discussion. Included here are such items as “apostles,” “prophets” and “teachers” from 1 Corinthians 12:28 and Ephesians 4:11, “pastors” and “evangelists” from the latter passage, and Timothy’s own charisma of ministry in 1 Timothy 4:14. The difficulties lie in three areas: the ambiguity of language noted above; whether these terms are primarily to be understood in terms of function or office; that Paul himself designates some of these as charismata, but not all of them (see Ministry).
    The clue to this ambiguity is probably to be found in a proper distinction between function and office. For the most part, these terms in Paul’s letters seem to be primarily functional, rather than denoting office. That is, Paul is more often concerned with the function of prophecy in the community than he is with a position known as “prophet.” In any case, the latter emerges from the former, not the other way about; and this is where the role of the Spirit and charismata terminology fit in. Paul clearly understood his own ministry and that of others to be Spirit-given and Spirit-empowered. When functioning as Spirit ministries, Paul would probably consider such ministries to be charismata. Even in what most scholars consider to be the Deutero-Pauline Pastoral Letters (see Pastoral Letters), Timothy’s charism is clearly not an office. The charisma resides “within him,” for the sake of his ministry (so Schatzmann, Fee; contra Dunn et al.).
    In sum, the frequent distinction between “charismatic” and “official” is probably a false one (so Käsemann, Fung), partly because all ministry was “charismatic” in the sense of being Christ-given and Spirit-empowered (Käsemann), and partly because the language distinctions come from a later time and have little to do with Paul and his concerns. This does not negate “office”; it merely suggests that such a discussion seems quite foreign to Paul’s own use of charismata when associated with the Spirit. (Dict of Paul and His Letters)
     
  12. epistemaniac

    epistemaniac New Member

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    On Tongues3.2.2. Guidelines for Exercising the Gift.
    ... No legitimate claim could be made that the Holy Spirit had simply overpowered the one who spoke in tongues. This is clearly evident in several ways. There appears to be something akin to a “prophetic consciousness” in those who speak in tongues, a consciousness which permits them to start and stop at will. Paul’s observation that the spirits of the prophets are subject to the prophets (1 Cor 14:32) appears to apply equally well to those who speak in tongues. The fact that (1) limitations can be placed upon the number of people who should speak in tongues during any particular meeting of the Christian community (generally no more than two or three), that (2) they can each take their turn in an orderly fashion, and that (3) they can choose to be silent, speaking quietly to God (1 Cor 14:27-28), all seem to indicate that those who speak in tongues are in complete control of their faculties. They can make conscious decisions regarding their behavior, and they can act in ways that ultimately contribute to the overall good of the community.
    Paul’s guidelines, which he claims are nothing less than a “command of the Lord” (1 Cor 14:37), place primary responsibility for “speaking in tongues” squarely on the shoulders of the speaker. The person who has the ability to speak in tongues also possesses the power to bring about confusion or to build up anyone who is present when he or she exercises that charism. Paul’s repeated exhortation to do that which builds up and to be ruled by love may be the key to the whole of 1 Corinthians (cf. 1 Cor 8:1). Just as the church is not to forbid speaking in tongues (1 Cor 14:40), so too the person who manifests this gift is to act only in a manner which benefits the whole church as well as the outsider who may be present (1 Cor 14:1, 5, 12, 26, 40).
    If an interpreter is not present, but a person believes that he or she has been inspired to speak in a tongue, that individual has two legitimate alternatives which will benefit the church:
    (1) The person can take responsibility to ask God for the ability to interpret (1 Cor 14:13). Requesting the charism which would render the utterance in tongues intelligible to the community does not necessarily mean that the gift will be given. The Spirit who distributes such charisms is, after all, sovereign over their bestowal (1 Cor 12:11). But if the need is genuine and the Spirit chooses to intervene, there is clearly no harm in asking. For one to do so is not to be guilty of presumption. The congregation might ultimately be edified (1 Cor 14:5).
    (2) The speaker can silently pray to God (1 Cor 14:28) a prayer which brings edification to the speaker and addresses God, but does not contribute to disorder and confusion in the congregation. The fact that Paul mentions such an option has led some to regard speaking in tongues as having a legitimate role as a private “prayer language” (e.g., Hayford).
    The latter use of this gift, expressed without the need for interpretation because it does not intrude into the life of the community in the same way as would a loud vocal expression, may well be Paul’s intent. Paul’s own speaking in tongues may in fact have been expressed most frequently in precisely this silent manner. He celebrated the fact that he spoke frequently in a tongue (1 Cor 14:18), but his personal preference was not to do so within the context of a community meeting (1 Cor 14:19). This clearly suggests that when Paul spoke in tongues it was in a nondisruptive manner when he was in a community setting or in private as part of his personal devotional life.
    The one exercise of tongues that Paul clearly condems as illegitimate is the very thing the Corinthian Christians seem to have embraced—speaking in tongues for the sake of speaking in tongues, without interpretation and without regard for the life and participation of the community.
    According to Paul, speaking in tongues also has value as a “sign.” The Corinthians thought tongues played a positive role as a sign of spirituality. Paul, on the other hand, was much more concerned about the potentially negative role the otherwise good gift could play apart from its appropriate context and practice. In Israel’s past “strange tongues” had served as a sign of God’s judgment. Paul’s citation of Isaiah 28:11-12 in 1 Corinthians 14:21 was intended to provide a specific example of this. When the Assyrians overwhelmed Judah, their foreign tongue in the presence of Judah could be viewed as nothing less than God’s judgment on Judah’s unfaithfulness. So too, for a stranger to enter a meeting in which the babbling of strange tongues was being manifest apart from any interpretation, the very act of speaking in tongues held the potential of confirming that unbeliever in a failure to discern any presence of God (1 Cor 14:23). The judgment by the stranger or outsider that these people were mad rather than that God was present could prevent the stranger from further contact with these people, and ultimately serve as a negative sign of judgment upon the stranger.
    It is important to note that nowhere does Paul argue that speaking in tongues is anything other than a charism, a gift of the Holy Spirit; Paul does not talk, as do many modern-day Pentecostals, of speaking in tongues as a sign or evidence of baptism in the Spirit. Within the context of 1 Corinthians 12–14 Paul does note that “in one Spirit we were all baptized into one body . . . and we were made to drink of one Spirit” (1 Cor 12:13), a clear indication that he has in mind the concept of conversion-initiation (so Dunn). On the whole, Pentecostals typically interpret this as a reference to the Spirit’s role of placing believers into the body of Christ rather than as an outpouring of the Spirit by Christ (Brumback). As a result, they too insist that when Paul asks the question “Do all speak in tongues?” (1 Cor 12:30), he legitimately anticipates a negative response. All parts of the body of Christ are not to be understood as manifesting the same charism (1 Cor 12:14-27).
    The insistence by many Pentecostals that the ability to speak in a tongue acts as a sign or the evidence of baptism in the Spirit that is available to all Christians (so Brumback) is not based upon Paul; rather, it relies heavily upon the writings of Luke, most notably upon Acts 2:1-39 (cf. also Acts 10:44-48; 19:1-6; and possibly Acts 8:9-19). This distinction does not differentiate between two phenomenologies; rather, it appeals to a single phenomenology with multiple purposes. Peter is understood to view speaking in tongues as a sign or evidence of the immanence of God’s Spirit which has just been poured out, as the answer to Joel’s prophecy (Acts 2:16-21 = Joel 2:28-32). Paul understood the gift of tongues also to point to the presence of God in grace, enabling the speaker to pray in a Spirit-inspired manner. When it was misused in public, however, it could act in a way which was contrary to its divine intent. It could become a sign of judgment against the unbeliever who interpreted it solely as a manifestation of madness (1 Cor 14:23). Paul’s concern was that this charism be used in a positive, edifying manner, and not as a negative sign. As a result, when considering the proper conduct of Christians gathered for public worship Paul commended intelligible speech which involved the mind (1 Cor 14:19), and especially the gift of prophecy (1 Cor 14:1, 3-5).
    In the end, Paul’s discussion of speaking in tongues is clarified when we understand his concern that whenever any charism is manifest within the Christian community it is intended to build up that community. Any undue emphasis upon individual experience, flights of ecstasy or manifestations which are unintelligible to the whole community are to be avoided as misappropriations of God’s grace in the life of the Christian community and as inconsistent with the very character of God who sovereignly bestows them upon various members of the church." (ibid)cont
     
  13. epistemaniac

    epistemaniac New Member

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    [FONT=&quot]"4. The Limits of Prophecy.[/FONT]
    [FONT=&quot]4.1. The Sovereignty of the Spirit’s Distribution.[/FONT] [FONT=&quot]In a sense, Paul viewed the prophetic gift as unlimited. If the Holy Spirit who distributed such gifts were present in all who believe ([/FONT][FONT=&quot]Rom 8:9[/FONT][FONT=&quot]), then theoretically all who believe should have the potential to prophesy. The Pauline wish that the Corinthians might earnestly desire the ability to prophesy ([/FONT][FONT=&quot]1 Cor 14:1[/FONT][FONT=&quot]) is by no means, then, a vapid rhetorical wish. It was a genuine possibility which stood in continuity with Moses’ prayer that all of God’s people might be prophets ([/FONT][FONT=&quot]Num 11:29[/FONT][FONT=&quot]), with Joel’s prediction that the Lord’s Spirit would be poured out on all persons, thereby enabling the sons and daughters of Israel to prophesy ([/FONT][FONT=&quot]Joel 2:28[/FONT][FONT=&quot] [= [/FONT][FONT=&quot]3:1[/FONT][FONT=&quot] MT]), and with Peter’s identification of the Pentecost event ([/FONT][FONT=&quot]Acts 2:14-18[/FONT][FONT=&quot]) as the fulfillment of that for which Moses had longed and which Joel had predicted.[/FONT] [FONT=&quot]The limits of prophecy, however, were fixed not so much by possibility as by reality. In one sense the appearance of the prophetic gift, like all other gifts, was dependent upon the sovereign distribution of the gift by the Spirit of God ([/FONT][FONT=&quot]1 Cor 12:11[/FONT][FONT=&quot]). It was, after all, only one manifestation within the body of Christ. But it may also have been limited by the faith to receive and to act upon the inspiration which the Holy Spirit manifested ([/FONT][FONT=&quot]Rom 12:6[/FONT][FONT=&quot]). Paul is clear that there is no limitation of this gift on the basis of gender. Both men and women might prophesy ([/FONT][FONT=&quot]1 Cor 11:4-5[/FONT][FONT=&quot]), but they needed to be people whom the Spirit inspired to speak and people who chose to obey the Spirit’s promptings.[/FONT] [FONT=&quot]To be sure, Paul viewed prophecy as providing a valuable corrective to the abuses of the Corinthian congregation. Its primary value was not so much individual as communal. It was intended to build up the community ([/FONT][FONT=&quot]1 Cor 14:3-5[/FONT][FONT=&quot]). Still, this gift was not the only gift granted to the church. Indeed, like all other gifts it was an imperfect one ([/FONT][FONT=&quot]1 Cor 13:9[/FONT][FONT=&quot]) with temporal limitations. And it needed to be exercised with restraint. Diversity within the one body of Christ anticipated that. The Holy Spirit distributed not only the prophetic gift but others as well. Paul recommended, therefore, that when the community gathered, only two or three prophetic utterances be given. Such a limitation would allow other individuals with other gifts adequate space to minister to the body ([/FONT][FONT=&quot]1 Cor 14:26[/FONT][FONT=&quot]). It would also make possible sufficient time for the various prophetic words to be given and to undergo the scrutiny of others ([/FONT][FONT=&quot]1 Cor 14:29[/FONT][FONT=&quot]).[/FONT] [FONT=&quot]But who are the “others” to whom Paul made reference here? Many have suggested that Paul envisioned a group of “prophets” who might weigh or test the oracle, but it is more likely that Paul saw a role for the entire congregation in this regard. Paul’s injunction in [/FONT][FONT=&quot]1 Thessalonians 5:20-21[/FONT][FONT=&quot] that prophecy should not be despised but tested is not limited to a group of testing “prophets.” It appears to be a congregational mandate. Regardless of who engaged in the discernment process, the important issue seems to have been that all claims to prophetic inspiration be limited to those who have been appropriately reviewed and accepted by the larger body.[/FONT] [FONT=&quot]4.2. Prophecy and the Need for Discernment.[/FONT] [FONT=&quot]In every age there have been those who claim to have prophetic inspiration. Some claims may be true, while others are not. In Paul’s day there were those who were designated as false prophets, such as Bar Jesus or Elymas ([/FONT][FONT=&quot]Acts 13:6[/FONT][FONT=&quot], [/FONT][FONT=&quot]8[/FONT][FONT=&quot]). There were also those such as the young slave girl at Philippi who had a spirit of divination and was engaged in soothsaying ([/FONT][FONT=&quot]Acts 16:16[/FONT][FONT=&quot]), an activity which had been condemned in the strongest of terms in the OT ([/FONT][FONT=&quot]Deut 18:10-12[/FONT][FONT=&quot]). Jesus had warned even his disciples that there would eventually arise false prophets who were actually wolves in sheep’s clothing ([/FONT][FONT=&quot]Mt 7:15-20[/FONT][FONT=&quot]). It should come as no surprise, then, that Paul, who wrote about the gift of prophesying, should also address himself to the subject of verification. Prophetic claims, after all, are easily made. Besides, genuine prophetic activity demands a response. It is important, therefore, to see that those who anticipate genuine prophetic activity in their midst are granted the necessary tools to distinguish between genuine and illegitimate prophetic claims.[/FONT] [FONT=&quot]Paul’s approach to this was twofold. On the one hand he spoke of another gift, the discerning of spirits ([/FONT]diakriseis pneumaton[FONT=&quot], [/FONT][FONT=&quot]1 Cor 12:10[/FONT][FONT=&quot]), which had been given to the body of Christ. In a sense, this gift should be viewed as a partner gift to the gift of prophecy. It too is a gift which is sovereignly bestowed upon certain individuals according to the will of the Spirit. It appears to be an ability to identify the source of the prophetic utterance, but that ability may also include the weighing of prophetic content. Paul himself may have exercised this gift when, “filled with the Holy Spirit,” he identified the true character of Elymas the sorcerer ([/FONT][FONT=&quot]Acts 13:6-11[/FONT][FONT=&quot]). Similarly, he may have employed this gift at Philippi when he addressed the young woman with the spirit of divination ([/FONT][FONT=&quot]Acts 16:16-18[/FONT][FONT=&quot]). On the other hand, Paul provided some practical advice which could enable the body of Christ to distinguish true from false prophecy. Since the gift of prophecy was a charism bestowed upon the church, it is natural to begin the discernment by knowing who it is that makes prophetic claims. Genuine prophecy is more likely to be given by members of the body of Christ, that is, by members of the Christian community rather than by those outside. As members of the community, those who prophesy will also exhibit certain characteristics, or fruit of the Spirit ([/FONT][FONT=&quot]Gal 5:22-23[/FONT][FONT=&quot]), a test also found in Didache 11–13.[/FONT] [FONT=&quot]Paul was concerned to stop certain behavior at Corinth, including unquestioned prophetic claims which could lead to an abuse of power. The gifts of God must reflect the nature and character of God, bringing [/FONT][FONT=&quot]peace[/FONT][FONT=&quot] rather than confusion ([/FONT][FONT=&quot]1 Cor 14:33[/FONT][FONT=&quot]) in a manner which is decent and orderly ([/FONT][FONT=&quot]1 Cor 14:40[/FONT][FONT=&quot]). In the case of the gift of prophecy, order includes the willingness of the person who prophesies to allow his or her utterance to undergo the scrutiny of others ([/FONT][FONT=&quot]1 Cor 14:29[/FONT][FONT=&quot]). Paul referred to this as a “command” of the Lord ([/FONT][FONT=&quot]1 Cor 14:37[/FONT][FONT=&quot]).[/FONT] [FONT=&quot]Associated with the requirement of order is Paul’s clear understanding that a genuine prophet had a distinct prophetic consciousness. Unlike some who might claim the loss of their identity swallowed up in ecstasy, Paul viewed the genuine, gifted Christian prophet as one in full control of himself or herself. “The spirits of prophets are subject to prophets,” Paul maintained ([/FONT][FONT=&quot]1 Cor 14:38[/FONT][FONT=&quot]). There was no excuse for unrestrained behavior or uncontrolled speech. There was no reason to accept the argument that the Spirit who had inspired the prophet had simply overwhelmed the prophet, robbing him or her of self-control or of his or her identity. Prophetic activity which reflected the character of God would be decent and orderly, and it would attract the notice of the unbeliever, drawing their attention not to the prophetic individual, but to the God who granted the gift ([/FONT][FONT=&quot]1 Cor 14:24-25[/FONT][FONT=&quot]).[/FONT] [FONT=&quot]The realization that prophetic activity was ultimately under the control of those who prophesied meant that this particular work of the Holy Spirit could also be quenched. Paul’s instruction to the church at Thessalonica that they not quench the Spirit nor despise prophesying suggests that some Christians would rather deny a place to continuing or spontaneous prophecy than deal with the problems it might potentially raise ([/FONT][FONT=&quot]1 Thess 5:19-22[/FONT][FONT=&quot]). Paul’s advice was to hear it out, then make a decision or test it ([/FONT]dokimazete[FONT=&quot]), accepting what was valuable while discarding the rest. The assessment of prophetic content was also an important aspect of weighing the prophecy. Paul is clear that a primary purpose for prophecy is to edify or build up the body of Christ. But it is also for the encouragement and consolation of the body ([/FONT][FONT=&quot]1 Cor 14:3-5[/FONT][FONT=&quot]). Elsewhere in Scripture prophecy might even be understood as a means of calling others to account (cf. [/FONT][FONT=&quot]2 Sam 12:1-15[/FONT][FONT=&quot]) or of disclosing the secrets of an individual heart (cf. [/FONT][FONT=&quot]Jn 3:16-19[/FONT][FONT=&quot]).[/FONT] [FONT=&quot]The Thessalonian congregation may have been troubled by prophetic claims which robbed them of hope or otherwise confused them. Paul wrote to them that they were not to let certain individuals, whether by Spirit ([/FONT]dia pneumatos[FONT=&quot]) or by word ([/FONT]dia logou[FONT=&quot]), trouble them with the claim that the Day of the Lord had already come ([/FONT][FONT=&quot]2 Thess 2:2[/FONT][FONT=&quot]; see[/FONT][FONT=&quot]Eschatology[/FONT][FONT=&quot]). These phrases suggest some prophetic activity or claim to prophetic inspiration in which a message had already been given within the Thessalonian context. The fact is that when he was with them Paul had already spoken to the Thessalonian Christians regarding the coming of the Lord ([/FONT][FONT=&quot]2 Thess 2:5[/FONT][FONT=&quot]). And in [/FONT][FONT=&quot]1 Thessalonians 4:15[/FONT][FONT=&quot] he refers to a “word of the Lord” ([/FONT]logos kyriou[FONT=&quot]) that when the Lord returned those who had died in Christ would be raised first, then those who were yet alive would be caught up in the clouds together with those who had died in Christ, in order to be with the Lord forever ([/FONT][FONT=&quot]1 Thess 4:15-17[/FONT][FONT=&quot]). Paul’s use of the designation “word of the Lord,” a phrase used repeatedly in the OT to describe prophetic activity (e.g., [/FONT][FONT=&quot]Jer 1:2[/FONT][FONT=&quot]; [/FONT][FONT=&quot]Ezek 1:3[/FONT][FONT=&quot]; [/FONT][FONT=&quot]Hos 1:1[/FONT][FONT=&quot]; [/FONT][FONT=&quot]4:1[/FONT][FONT=&quot]; [/FONT][FONT=&quot]Joel 1:1[/FONT][FONT=&quot], etc.), and his exhortation to the Thessalonians to encourage, or comfort ([/FONT]parakaleo[FONT=&quot]), one another with these words, an explicit function of prophecy articulated in [/FONT][FONT=&quot]1 Corinthians 14:3[/FONT][FONT=&quot], suggest that this passage possesses a prophetic character (Dunn). To say all of this, however, is merely to build a case by which [/FONT][FONT=&quot]1 Thessalonians 4:15-17[/FONT][FONT=&quot] may be understood as an actual prophetic oracle cited by Paul within his larger argument which seeks to allay the fears of the Thessalonian Christians.[/FONT] [FONT=&quot]Other interpretations of this passage are possible however. D. Hill, for example, has pointed out that the phrase “word of the Lord” need not be understood as a reference either to a revelatory word made known by the Spirit or a logion of the risen Lord. It may be a simple reference to an otherwise unknown saying of Jesus, or even a generic reference to the apocalyptic teaching of Jesus (cf. Wenham; see[/FONT][FONT=&quot]Jesus, Sayings of[/FONT][FONT=&quot]).[/FONT] [FONT=&quot]Regardless of the interpretation one adopts for [/FONT][FONT=&quot]1 Thessalonians 4:15-17[/FONT][FONT=&quot], Paul’s concern is clear. There are limits to the genuine expression of prophetic activity, and these limits can and must be discerned by the community of the faithful who are both gifted and capable of doing their part. For the community to fail to discern the voice of the Lord, or for the so-called prophet to refuse the community its role in the discerning process is for the gift and its purpose to be thwarted.[/FONT]
    [FONT=&quot]5. Appeals to Paul in Contemporary Claims to Prophecy.[/FONT]
    [FONT=&quot]During the twentieth century the rise of Pentecostalism and the charismatic renewal movement has raised new questions regarding the gift of prophecy. The Reformers, Luther and Calvin, limited the spontaneous character of prophecy by defining this gift as the proper exposition of the Scriptures, hence, they popularized the idea of prophecy as preaching. During this century Benjamin B. Warfield’s well-known “cessation theory” and Dispensationalist arguments, based upon a reading of [/FONT][FONT=&quot]1 Corinthians 13:8-10[/FONT][FONT=&quot] which suggests that the “perfect” has come in the form of Scripture, thereby ending the need for any continuing form of revelation, has led many to argue that if genuine prophecy exists at all today, it can only be understood as the exposition of a previously existing authoritative text, namely, Scripture.[/FONT] [FONT=&quot]If prophecy is viewed as revelatory in nature, or as in any way providing for new revelation, regardless of content, it is said to conflict with the role of Scripture as the canon by which all Christian life and thought is to be judged. Any hint of the possibility of new revelation is thought to make Scripture less authoritative than Protestants claimed in the Reformation cry of solaScriptura, and makes possible the arguments or claims for subsequent “scriptures” such as the BookofMormon (so Chantry).[/FONT] [FONT=&quot]Pentecostals and those Christians who align themselves with the charismatic movement tend to share some of these same ideas and concerns but differ on some of them as well. The exposition of Scripture in teaching and preaching, when undertaken with the Holy Spirit as one’s guide, seems to parallel Paul’s understanding of prophecy as the revelation of the mystery of God now made known ([/FONT][FONT=&quot]Eph 1:9[/FONT][FONT=&quot]; [/FONT][FONT=&quot]3:3[/FONT][FONT=&quot]; [/FONT][FONT=&quot]Rom 16:25-26[/FONT][FONT=&quot]), although Dunn is probably correct in identifying this as inspired proclamation, a charismatic form of preaching, but not as prophecy per se. While some prefer to view the Spirit’s role in prophetic preaching as limited to sermon preparation, others view it as something done with spontaneity, including a sudden illumination or application of the text made clear by the Holy Spirit during the act of preaching or teaching. Pentecostals and members of the charismatic renewal, however, are less concerned by the possibility that the value of Scripture in some way will be subverted by spontaneous oracles. On the whole they value the place of the spontaneous oracle alongside preaching as a genuine manifestation of prophecy which continues to appear within the contemporary church (cf. Yocum, Grudem, Cullmann). Such utterances are believed to play a role that may be both revelatory and authoritative, but these believers take their cue from Paul by emphasizing the need for discernment by the community of faith ([/FONT][FONT=&quot]1 Cor 14:29-33[/FONT][FONT=&quot]; [/FONT][FONT=&quot]1 Thess 5:19-22[/FONT][FONT=&quot]).[/FONT] [FONT=&quot]At least three concerns continue to exist. First, such oracles appear to have limited value for specific people at a specific time and in a specific place. These utterances are not understood to possess the same universal authority of Scripture. They are a form of inspired speech which “ceases when the words cease” (Dunn). Second, these oracles are assessed according to the Pauline guidelines found in [/FONT][FONT=&quot]1 Corinthians 12–14[/FONT][FONT=&quot], [/FONT][FONT=&quot]Ephesians 4[/FONT][FONT=&quot], [/FONT][FONT=&quot]Romans 12[/FONT][FONT=&quot] and [/FONT][FONT=&quot]1 Thessalonians 5[/FONT][FONT=&quot]. Because these oracles are scrutinized in the light of Scripture as it is understood by the believing community, the oracles are understood to be subservient to Scripture, which provides the norm by which all prophetic activity is to be assessed. Third, the purpose or purposes of such spontaneous oracles must be consistent with the God who reveals them; that is, they must be given in a decent, orderly and edifying manner. Prophetic claims that do not meet these criteria are disregarded. In the end, then, prophetic activity within the modern Pentecostal and charismatic movements functions at its best when it is submitted to the guidance of Scripture and follows the limitations and guidelines expressed by Paul." [/FONT](Dictionary of Paul and His Letters) cont
     
  14. epistemaniac

    epistemaniac New Member

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    3. Gift of Knowledge.
    In spite of this, Paul is clear that there are generally useful words or utterances of knowledge, and that these words may be viewed as charisms, or gifts, freely bestowed by the Holy Spirit in a sovereign manner (1 Cor 12:4, 11). J. D. G. Dunn rightly calls them “rational revelations” (Dunn, 217-19). Their purpose, like the purpose of all such charisms, is to serve the ongoing welfare of the church (1 Cor 12:7). In 1 Corinthians 8 the knowledge possessed by those Corinthians who were labeled as “strong” appears to have provided them with a “charismatic insight into the real nature of reality” (Dunn, 218). The sovereign action of the Spirit’s distribution of these utterances of knowledge, moreover, means that not all Christians have been given this charism (1 Cor 12:11) and, therefore, it is important for those who gain this knowledge from the Spirit to share it with the rest of the body of Christ in such a way as to teach and lead them without injury (see Body of Christ). The possession of this knowledge, then, is viewed as having certain limitations.
    In 1 Corinthians 13 Paul notes several of the limitations inherent in this knowledge, even if it consists of Spirit-inspired utterances of knowledge. One of these limitations is temporal in nature, for knowledge will ultimately come to an end (1 Cor 13:8). A second, and perhaps more important, limitation is its inability to communicate adequately in words the whole picture. At present our knowledge, even Spirit-inspired knowledge, is only partial or incomplete. It appears merely as a dim reflection in a mirror (1 Cor 13:12), as we ourselves are slowly moving through a process of transformation from one level of glory to another (2 Cor 3:18) by means of the Holy Spirit. This process of transformation, which also in some way involves a form of divine revelation, will not be complete until the consummation (1 Cor 13:12; 2 Cor 3:18; cf. 1 Jn 3:2). At that time a full knowledge will come, but perhaps more importantly, with it will come the realization that believers have also been the subject of the divine knowledge. They have been fully known by God.
    Probably the most important limitation that Paul views as governing knowledge is the limitation placed on it by love. Love edifies (1 Cor 8:1; 13:4-7, 13), and its primary focus seems to be a recognition and an encouragement of others. Any exercise of a manifestation of knowledge apart from love is of no value. It is nothing (1 Cor 13:2). Paul’s view of knowledge is expressed in 1 Corinthians 14:6, where knowledge is shown to be parallel with, and to play a role in, teaching. Teaching, by its very nature, demands an open and trusting relationship characterized by love.
    In the contemporary Pentecostal and Charismatic renewal many claims are made regarding the presence and use of the “word of knowledge.” Like all charisms, these claims must each be discerned by the community of faith. This charism, like all genuine charisms, is meant to contribute to the whole community, bringing its recipients to a new level of maturity by providing insight into the mind of Christ (1 Cor 2:16). Such charisms show their genuine character by the fruit which they bring forth. (ibid)
     
  15. Brother Mike

    Brother Mike New Member

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    outside the gift of Knowledge being explained, (Hard for me to follow) The writer of the book really seemed to take the time and examine things without diminishing the power of the gifts. Certainly some books by certain denominations would have had one page about it, titled "They have been done away with." THE END. I think it makes a nice edition to this thread for those that take the time to read a different perspective, but very close to a lot I wrote about.I am not sure why we are getting hung up on, Prophecy makes you SAD/Not sad. I certainly do not want anyone leaving after I preached or spoke something from God sad. There are many places in the NT that we are to edify one another. If I leave you sad, then that does not seem good, and Paul said it was to edify. You see, God has told me things about people that would make them sad, I hold my tongue, until I get the right time to tell them. "Word in season". When I tell them, they are ready to hear, and God always has a answer for them, just like He did in Jeremiah. I do see your point, up to a point if that makes sense. The lord sent me to the hospital to tell a woman to stop speaking death over her Child. I was very strong about it and she was very upset, but she did stop, knowing from the past that I did hear God. The child was scared to go to sleep, because he did not want to die. I spent time with the child, talking to him about heaven and how God would have lots of great things to do with no hospitals. I laid hands on him and prayed for the peace of Our Lord Jesus to be upon Him. It had to be more than my words as He stayed peaceful until he died shortly after. His mother has never talked to me since. So, in a sense I do understand what your saying. Jas 3:17 But the wisdom that is from above is first pure, then peaceable, gentle, and easy to be intreated, full of mercy and good fruits, without partiality, and without hypocrisy. (no contradiction in the Word.)This scripture seems to contradict some things, but there is prophecy for those that do not know God, or follow him. Then for those that are his children and He is trying to help them. I am sure Revelation is full of things that bother those that don't know God, or choose not to follow Jesus. For me, no problem. epistemaniac Give me some slack, look at what I am trying to say. You have not hung around bunches of people with all kinds of "THUS SAITH THE LORDS" God said you mom is going to die, God said there will be a accident, God told me your going to hell if you keep watching TV, ETC.................. God said none of the above. I am trying to put the Gift in perspective according to Cor 12-14. Paul said edify!!!! I was not trying to go outside of that setting to much. I just wanted people that took interest to get on the right track. That was my heart. I hope you copied and pasted and did not have to type all that book out. God is with you and your family and Jesus Is Lord!!!
     
  16. epistemaniac

    epistemaniac New Member

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    I am glad you appreciated the articles...your example is indeed one where you shared your heart, you may have felt you were operating in your "prophetic" gifts, and the woman was indeed sad after you said what you said... and that is my point.. you were not wrong in telling the woman not to "speak death" over the child, though the child did indeed soon pass away...I am not getting hung up on anything except disagreeing with what you were teaching, namely that a person operating in a prophetic capacity would/should never go away leaving someone sad... I AM hung up on examining everyone's teachings, including my own, and making sure that nothing I say or anyone else says contradicts the Scriptures... and in this case there was a prophecy for those who did know God, namely Jesus' disciples, and yet some of the things Jesus prophesied about made them sad... its really simple... so what you said can't be true... you mean well... I do not doubt your intentions... you were simply mistaken about this point, and its ok... I make mistakes all the time... I try to correct them according to Scripture, learn from my mistakes and move on to what I hope is a more biblically consistent theology...and I am giving you some slack my brother!!! I can't look at what you are trying to say, I can't know what you meant to say, I can only respond to what you did say...and how would you know who I have hung around...? I have, in point of fact, been around LOTS of Charismatics who prefaced their words... their "prophetics utterances" with "thus saith the Lord" and they would go on to predict this or that thing happening, or "speaking a word of knowledge" etc etc and that thing did not come to pass... the churches I went to were The Word of Life in Goshen Indiana, Communion Fellowship in Goshen Indiana, Zion Chapel in Goshen Indiana, and in many of these churches there were people from Hobart Freeman's Glory Barn word of faith churches .... and several other churches in Clearwater FL, Kenneth City FL, Pinellas Park FL, and St Pete FL... in every case these were Charismatic churches where people did indeed do just as I said... while we disagree, I would hope that you not question my integrity or say that I am lying... if I said I have been around a bunch of people who did what I said, please, give me some slack and let me innocent until proven guilty....yes, Paul said to edify... but to edify is not to preclude the fact that sometimes what a prophet said made people sad.... they could be sad for numerous reasons, maybe the reasons weren't always the right reasons for being sad, but the point is they were sad after hearing what the prophet had to say... and in the cases where this was a good sadness, say for instance that it led to repentance or a deeper reliance on God etc, then the sadness would eventually edify them... that is to say, edification and sadness are not mutually contradictory ideas... as an example we could use sadness and joy.... now sadness and happiness are mutually contradictory... but sadness and joy are not... because even in the depths of great tragedy that can befall us, we can still experience joy in knowing that no matter what happens to us, God is in control, and that all things work for the good who love God and are called according to His purpose, etc etc etc... so too then edification and sadness are not mutually contradictory concepts... for we have biblical testimony showing that the prophets of God shared prophetic messages that sometimes at least initially brought sadness, though might (thought not necessarily) brought edification...when you quoted that passage from James you said
    no contradiction in the word is true, but that is not what is meant by the word "hypocrisy"... "G505ἀνυπόκριτοςanupókritos; gen. anupokrítou, masc.-fem., neut. anupókriton, adj. from the priv. a (G1), without, and hupokrínomai (G5271), to pretend, simulate. Originally it meant inexperienced in the art of acting. In the NT, it came to mean one without hypocrisy or pretense, unfeigned, genuine, real, true, sincere (Rom_12:9; 2Co_6:6; 1Ti_1:5; 2Ti_1:5; 1Pe_1:22; Jam_3:17)." (Word Study Dictionary)In any case, that a prophecy would leave someone sad does not contradict what James is saying: "He sets mercy against the fierce and cruel nature of man, and shows that heavenly wisdom brings forth good fruits, for he that is heavenly wise, refers all things to God's glory, and the profit of his neighbours." (Geneva Study Notes) "Finally wisdom is sincere (ajnupovkrito", anypokritos, cf. Romans 12:9; 2 Corinthians 6:6; 1 Timothy 1:5; 2 Timothy 1:5). True wisdom does not have to show off. It does not have the pretentious display of the ambitious. Jesus constantly denounced the hypocrisy of those who claimed to be wise but did not obey God (Matthew 6:2, 5, 16; 7:5; 15:7; Mark 12:15; Luke 12:56; 13:15). The truly wise are not hypocritical. They have a consistency between what they say and how they live." (College Press)Lastly the context of 1 Cor. 12-14 I would venture to say, is a prophetic utterance given by Paul that no doubt "stung" some of its original readers, making them sad, but hopefully (and as 2 Cor. seems to indicate did) led to repentance because the Corinthians were engaged in many unbiblical practices which Paul had to correct. People do not like to be corrected, thus it makes sense that some of those to whom Paul wrote were sad at having their behavior rebuked... some who were sad went on to repent and instituted Paul's mandates for orderly worship, others probably did not.blessings,ken
     
  17. Brother Mike

    Brother Mike New Member

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    I don't know, I was in MA driving a Semi. I had not talked to this women in awhile. I had no idea her son had been admitted to the hospital. I was believing the child would be healed and fine. I was just praying in tongues, and the Lord spoke to me. He told me when I got home to go to the hospital and give this women that message. (Word of Knowledge?) I don't know, I stopped trying to put things in categories. Was it prophecy? Who knows, but I had a mission and everything was as the Lord showed me when I got back home to IL. It was not very pleasant though.
    Sounds good to me brother.Be blessed!!! Jesus Is Lord
     
  18. epistemaniac

    epistemaniac New Member

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    yeah the categories are not always easy to separate...so how do you interpret the situation where you were believing the the child would be healed, and yet this did not happen? ... whether this was a "word of knowledge" or whether it was a prophetic utterance, or the result of you praying in tongues...blessings,ken
     
  19. Brother Mike

    Brother Mike New Member

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    Short version:I meet woman at Work, told of Jesus, Woman came to live with wife. Woman got all her kids back. One kid was sick. We believed God, God heals Kid to where He did not need a liver transplant. Women gets blessed by God, gets house. Woman gets man-hunger disease. Moves in bad man, not a Christian. Womans Pastor warns woman, many warn woman to just grow in the Lord, until God brings better man. Woman ignores everyone. Woman lost house God put her in because of bad man. Woman moves to small tiny trailer and packs kids in with bad man. Son that was sick, starts to get sick again. Woman is broke, and tells everyone that will listen how bad she has it because of son dying. Soon son gets admitted to Hospital. Lord speaks to me, to talk to woman. Son dies. So at the start I showed her about God's will to heal, we start believe God for the Boy and he gets better. She then left God, and all that God started in her life that was Good and positive. What can you do?
    I believe it is the Will of God that everyone gets Healed. Does my faith and belief get people healed? NO, just as your faith and belief in preaching the Gospel does not get everyone saved. Is it important to believe in the Gospel and have faith in your preaching? Yes!!!Same with someone believing that someone will get healed. We can have no doubts in what we tell others, but must believe we are speaking the truth. God gave me this scripture, as that boy dying, bugged me a whole lot.Hos 4:6 My people are destroyed for lack of knowledge: because thou hast rejected knowledge.........................I always half quoted this scripture. I probably could not quote the rest of it at one time. Hos 4:6..............I will also reject thee, that thou shalt be no priest to me: seeing thou hast forgotten the law of thy God, I will also forget thy children. Hos 4:6............I will forget to bless your children. NLTWe don't like to think of God this way toward Children, but this answers the question to the World of why their children suffer and die. God will keep what He said.Be blessed Brother!!!! Jesus Is Lord.
     
  20. epistemaniac

    epistemaniac New Member

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    thanks for sharing the background with me Mike... I appreciate your sharing the background to the situation... truly a very sad story..here is another perspective on your story... perhaps it is not necessarily the case that just because the boy's mother persisted in her sinful life that the boy was punished by going out of remission into a physical relapse and got sick again... remember the story of the person born blind..? the disciples asked who sinned, the person who was blind or his parents.. Jesus said that it bassically wasn't relevant who sinned (because we all are sinners), rather the important thing was that in this case was that God was going to be glorified...John 9:1-3 ESV As he passed by, he saw a man blind from birth. (2) And his disciples asked him, "Rabbi, who sinned, this man or his parents, that he was born blind?" (3) Jesus answered, "It was not that this man sinned, or his parents, but that the works of God might be displayed in him."So regardless of whether or not this woman sinned, it is she and she alone who is responsbile to God for sin, her son is not responsible for her sin and thus he cannot be punished for her sins... another story that speaks to the issue of evil and as to how the effects are felt by all, regardless of their individual levels of sin... is this:Luke 13:1-5 ESV There were some present at that very time who told him about the Galileans whose blood Pilate had mingled with their sacrifices. (2) And he answered them, "Do you think that these Galileans were worse sinners than all the other Galileans, because they suffered in this way? (3) No, I tell you; but unless you repent, you will all likewise perish. (4) Or those eighteen on whom the tower in Siloam fell and killed them: do you think that they were worse offenders than all the others who lived in Jerusalem? (5) No, I tell you; but unless you repent, you will all likewise perish."All are sinners, and all likewise deserve to perish because of our sins...Jesus was the only one who could bear the sins and the punishment for those sins for someone else... it just doesn't make any sense for that boy to have to pay for the sins of his mother... of course the living conditions, perhaps the boyfriend was abusive, etc these are all natural consequences which will result as consequences and ramifications of living with a mother who was regularly sinning and out of God's will, but to say that God inflicted a fatal illness on a boy because of his mother's sins seems unjust to me... or put another way Mike, both you and I are Christians, but, we both still sin... now our sin may not be as obvious or persistent as that woman's sin, but we sin nonetheless many times and in many ways, and these sins are incredibly grievous to the Lord, even more so once we become his followers... but should our children be punished because of the fact that we still sin even though we are Christians? It seems not... well likewise that little boy does not deserve to be punished for his mom's sins... there is a distinction in the wills of God... His decretive and permissive will... God is absolutely sovereign and powerful, if it was really God's will that no one got sick, then God, being omnipotent, would and could make it the case that no one would be sick, or the reverse, that every single person who does git sick in fact gets healed... but the clearest examples that not everyone gets healed, even if they have the greatest amount of faith one could possibly have is the Apostle Paul... for instance, Paul had a thorn in his flesh that even though he prayed 3 times for the Lord to remove it from him, God, in His sovereignty chose not to heal him and told "My grace is sufficient for you, for my power is made perfect in weakness" (2 Cor. 12:7).... without question, Paul was a great man of faith... so it is not the case, as many charismatics teach, that you will be healed "if only you have enough faith"... if anyone had faith, Paul did, and he had it abundantly.. but the deciding factor in whether or not Paul or anyone else is healed is God's ultimate or decretive will, not the amount of faith you or someone else has.... all we need is the faith of a mustard seed... right?we live in a fallen world, and that little boy was himself a sinner, and so the ramifications of both of these factors leads to why the Lord allowed him to die... which leads to the second sense in the way God wills things... ie through his permissive will... so we have decretinve will where God decrees something to happen, and it does happen immediately, without secondary causes.... for instance at the moment of creation God spoke and decreed that everything would come into existence, and it did... however there is another sense in which God allows things to happen, this is His permissive will... in this case is seems as if it was His will to allow the boy to get sick again and to finally pass away... after all, God is perfectly good and all powerful, he could have stopped the boy from ever getting sick in the first place, and could have healed him at any time in the process of the boy being sick... but He allowed the boy to be sick not necessarily because his mom was sinning, and not because you or others with you stopped praying enough for him, or that you and others with you had some secret sin in your lives such that your prayers were no longer 'as effective", or that you or the others with you were sinning in the sense that you did not have enough faith to get that boy healed... in this case it just seems as if God was ready to take the boy home, that is, hopefully he was a Christian...perhaps God allowed the boy to go into remission and during that time God gave him a chance to become a follower of Christ's because lets face it, God knows everything, and He knew that the boy would get sick in the first place, and he knew that for awhile the boy would get better, and He also knew that after another span of time the boy would die. After all, the bible tells us that not only when and where we live is determined by God (Acts 17:26 ESV And he made from one man every nation of mankind to live on all the face of the earth, having determined allotted periods and the boundaries of their dwelling place,) but also how long we live is all in God's hands. So no matter how much we pray (and we need to pray!!) or how much faith we have (and we need to have faith!!) God's will is settled from all eternity. God was not surprised when the boy got sick the first time, nor was He surprised when the boy went into remission, and finally He was not surprised when the boy finally passed away. God knows the end from the beginning, and He knows the number of our days. But I do know that there is something to God punishing the sins of the 3rd and 4th generation... again I think this would be more in keeping the natural consequences of sin versus causing one person to bear the penalty for another person's specific sins...blessings,ken
     
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