Man could not restore himself to that relationship, hee had gone to far. He had sunk to low. He was morally enfeebled by sin and doomed by Gods own edict to die Genesis 2;17.There was nothing God could do but receive in Himself the penalty He had decreed for sin. True, He could have set aside His law and said that it was of no consequence; but had He done so He would have jeopardized the foundation on which the goverment of His hole universe depends. The penalty for disobedience is death, and this penalty had to be paid either by the offender, or by the lawgiver in his own person.Because God is love He chose the latter course, though He knem it must lead to Calvary.Here indeed was perfect love, made manifested by an act of utter self surrender and submission, the willing yielding up of life thet others might live.What the Incarnation cost God the Father we sall never Know. How much it meant for God the son to Die for the human race must also remain a mystery. Even the angels do not not understand it; and it will be the theme of endless discussion and wounderment through all eternity1 Peter 1;11,12Always in thought of you my lord GodGod Bless AllLove brother
God died for his children
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I God is all powerful he wouldn't have had to sacrifice his son, so either he's not all powerful or he's just a melodramatic sadist who tortured Jesus for no reason.
(Shornaal;55433)
I God is all powerful he wouldn't have had to sacrifice his son, so either he's not all powerful or he's just a melodramatic sadist who tortured Jesus for no reason.
For no reason? That's just a foolish statement. And He had reasons and His reasons are right. For God so loved His children so much that He had a plan of salvation for all of mankind. To free them from sin.
I God is all powerful he wouldn't have had to sacrifice his son, so either he's not all powerful or he's just a melodramatic sadist who tortured Jesus for no reason.
For no reason? That's just a foolish statement. And He had reasons and His reasons are right. For God so loved His children so much that He had a plan of salvation for all of mankind. To free them from sin.
(thesuperjag;55434)
For no reason? That's just a foolish statement. And He had reasons and His reasons are right. For God so loved His children so much that He had a plan of salvation for all of mankind. To free them from sin.
Saying "He had reasons and His reasons are right" is not an answer to Shornaal's objection. It's not an answer to anything. Shornaal raises an excellent point - the penalty for sin was something that God instituted in the first place. If He is truly loving and merciful (as well as all-powerful), He could simply have removed that penalty or forgiven us, without needlessly sending down His Son.The traditional answer to this is that "God is just as well as loving", but this doesn't work either. To say this is to essentially say, "God was bound by His attribute of justice." But did God create the concept of justice, or is it something beyond Him, that not even He can alter? If He cannot alter this concept, then there is something outside of God, something more powerful than God. Therefore, God is not all-powerful. If, however, God created the concept of justice, then with His knowledge of the future, He could simply have defined it differently in the first place, so that sending His Son as a sacrifice to Himself was not necessary...
For no reason? That's just a foolish statement. And He had reasons and His reasons are right. For God so loved His children so much that He had a plan of salvation for all of mankind. To free them from sin.
Saying "He had reasons and His reasons are right" is not an answer to Shornaal's objection. It's not an answer to anything. Shornaal raises an excellent point - the penalty for sin was something that God instituted in the first place. If He is truly loving and merciful (as well as all-powerful), He could simply have removed that penalty or forgiven us, without needlessly sending down His Son.The traditional answer to this is that "God is just as well as loving", but this doesn't work either. To say this is to essentially say, "God was bound by His attribute of justice." But did God create the concept of justice, or is it something beyond Him, that not even He can alter? If He cannot alter this concept, then there is something outside of God, something more powerful than God. Therefore, God is not all-powerful. If, however, God created the concept of justice, then with His knowledge of the future, He could simply have defined it differently in the first place, so that sending His Son as a sacrifice to Himself was not necessary...
Isaiah 55:8-9For my thoughts [are] not your thoughts, neither [are] your ways my ways, saith the LORD. For [as] the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts.Israel did not want to listen to God in the old Testament times. They disobeyed him even though he revealed himself to them. So in a act of redemption for our sins Jesus took the punishment so we do not have to be punished. He died and resurrected proving that Jesus is the Christ, so that people may believe in the Lord so they can be with him when they enter life. P.S. I always love the comments either he is not all powerful or he is a melodramatic sadist LOL its like there is no other choice. Call God whatever you like , but just remember he died so you could be with him so you might believe in him.Because THERE IS NO GREATER LOVE THAN SACRIFICE!. THATS WHAT HE DID GET IT? SACRIFICED HIMSELF BECAUSE HE LOVES YOU MORE THAN ANYTHING.John 15:11-12This is my commandment, That ye love one another, as I have loved you. Greater love hath no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends. Ye are my friends, if ye do whatsoever I command you.
(Alpha and Omega;58248)
Isaiah 55:8-9For my thoughts [are] not your thoughts, neither [are] your ways my ways, saith the LORD. For [as] the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts.Israel did not want to listen to God in the old Testament times. They disobeyed him even though he revealed himself to them. So in a act of redemption for our sins Jesus took the punishment so we do not have to be punished. He died and resurrected proving that Jesus is the Christ, so that people may believe in the Lord so they can be with him when they enter life. P.S. I always love the comments either he is not all powerful or he is a melodramatic sadist LOL its like there is no other choice. Call God whatever you like , but just remember he died so you could be with him so you might believe in him.Because THERE IS NO GREATER LOVE THAN SACRIFICE!. THATS WHAT HE DID GET IT? SACRIFICED HIMSELF BECAUSE HE LOVES YOU MORE THAN ANYTHING.John 15:11-12This is my commandment, That ye love one another, as I have loved you. Greater love hath no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends. Ye are my friends, if ye do whatsoever I command you.
I loved your post Alpha and Omega.
It s a beautiful thing ever in life to see God layed down His life for us that we might believed in Him and live.
I know I believe in Him.
Isaiah 55:8-9For my thoughts [are] not your thoughts, neither [are] your ways my ways, saith the LORD. For [as] the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts.Israel did not want to listen to God in the old Testament times. They disobeyed him even though he revealed himself to them. So in a act of redemption for our sins Jesus took the punishment so we do not have to be punished. He died and resurrected proving that Jesus is the Christ, so that people may believe in the Lord so they can be with him when they enter life. P.S. I always love the comments either he is not all powerful or he is a melodramatic sadist LOL its like there is no other choice. Call God whatever you like , but just remember he died so you could be with him so you might believe in him.Because THERE IS NO GREATER LOVE THAN SACRIFICE!. THATS WHAT HE DID GET IT? SACRIFICED HIMSELF BECAUSE HE LOVES YOU MORE THAN ANYTHING.John 15:11-12This is my commandment, That ye love one another, as I have loved you. Greater love hath no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends. Ye are my friends, if ye do whatsoever I command you.
I loved your post Alpha and Omega.
It isn't sacrificing yourself unless you die. So is God dead?If not he didn't sacrifice anything, and if he is dead, why pray to him?
(Shornaal;58258)
It isn't sacrificing yourself unless you die. So is God dead?If not he didn't sacrifice anything, and if he is dead, why pray to him?
He did die but resurrected. I would say the beatings, crucifixion and death is sacrifice wouldn't you?
It isn't sacrificing yourself unless you die. So is God dead?If not he didn't sacrifice anything, and if he is dead, why pray to him?
He did die but resurrected. I would say the beatings, crucifixion and death is sacrifice wouldn't you?
(Shornaal;58258)
It isn't sacrificing yourself unless you die. So is God dead?If not he didn't sacrifice anything, and if he is dead, why pray to him?
Unto Christians (and Jews) that trust in Him...John 11:25 - Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live:Unto what happened after His death?Mark 8:31 - And he began to teach them, that the Son of man must suffer many things, and be rejected of the elders, and of the chief priests, and scribes, and be killed, and after three days rise again.Matthew 27:63 - Saying, Sir, we remember that that deceiver said, while he was yet alive, After three days I will rise again.........John 19:30 - When Jesus therefore had received the vinegar, he said, It is finished: and he bowed his head, and gave up the ghost.Luke 23:46 - And when Jesus had cried with a loud voice, he said, Father, into thy hands I commend my spirit: and having said thus, he gave up the ghost.Mark 15:37 - And Jesus cried with a loud voice, and gave up the ghost.Matthew 27:50 - Jesus, when he had cried again with a loud voice, yielded up the ghost........Mark 16:9 - Now when Jesus was risen early the first day of the week, he appeared first to Mary Magdalene, out of whom he had cast seven devils.Luke 24:1-3 - Now upon the first day of the week, very early in the morning, they came unto the sepulchre, bringing the spices which they had prepared, and certain others with them. And they found the stone rolled away from the sepulchre. And they entered in, and found not the body of the Lord Jesus.Luke 24:15 - And it came to pass, that, while they communed together and reasoned, Jesus himself drew near, and went with them....I Corinthians 15:3 - And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:...I Corinthians 15:44 - It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.........In short, there is hope.
It isn't sacrificing yourself unless you die. So is God dead?If not he didn't sacrifice anything, and if he is dead, why pray to him?
Unto Christians (and Jews) that trust in Him...John 11:25 - Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live:Unto what happened after His death?Mark 8:31 - And he began to teach them, that the Son of man must suffer many things, and be rejected of the elders, and of the chief priests, and scribes, and be killed, and after three days rise again.Matthew 27:63 - Saying, Sir, we remember that that deceiver said, while he was yet alive, After three days I will rise again.........John 19:30 - When Jesus therefore had received the vinegar, he said, It is finished: and he bowed his head, and gave up the ghost.Luke 23:46 - And when Jesus had cried with a loud voice, he said, Father, into thy hands I commend my spirit: and having said thus, he gave up the ghost.Mark 15:37 - And Jesus cried with a loud voice, and gave up the ghost.Matthew 27:50 - Jesus, when he had cried again with a loud voice, yielded up the ghost........Mark 16:9 - Now when Jesus was risen early the first day of the week, he appeared first to Mary Magdalene, out of whom he had cast seven devils.Luke 24:1-3 - Now upon the first day of the week, very early in the morning, they came unto the sepulchre, bringing the spices which they had prepared, and certain others with them. And they found the stone rolled away from the sepulchre. And they entered in, and found not the body of the Lord Jesus.Luke 24:15 - And it came to pass, that, while they communed together and reasoned, Jesus himself drew near, and went with them....I Corinthians 15:3 - And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:...I Corinthians 15:44 - It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.........In short, there is hope.
(Alpha and Omega;58260)
He did die but resurrected. I would say the beatings, crucifixion and death is sacrifice wouldn't you?
But since he's all powerful he could have washed away our sins without dying.Seems like showing off to me: "Hey look at me! I can die while washing away your sins at the same time!"Or it's just the greatest PR stunt of all time, I mean look how many people have miniatures and artwork depicting his mangled corpse in their homes.Also, if he did die, who resurrected him?
He did die but resurrected. I would say the beatings, crucifixion and death is sacrifice wouldn't you?
But since he's all powerful he could have washed away our sins without dying.Seems like showing off to me: "Hey look at me! I can die while washing away your sins at the same time!"Or it's just the greatest PR stunt of all time, I mean look how many people have miniatures and artwork depicting his mangled corpse in their homes.Also, if he did die, who resurrected him?
Why is it that the majority of threads in this forum recently have been univac posting threads to get responses from non-Christians, rather than the other way around?
tim_from_pa
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(Shornaal;58262)
But since he's all powerful he could have washed away our sins without dying.Seems like showing off to me: "Hey look at me! I can die while washing away your sins at the same time!"Or it's just the greatest PR stunt of all time, I mean look how many people have miniatures and artwork depicting his mangled corpse in their homes.Also, if he did die, who resurrected him?
Well, I'll give God this much credit. Even if people think that he's a little off the rocker for allowing death to begin with, and even if they think he's ultimately unfair for allowing death even though he warned the first people of the consequences, I must say that he allowed himself to taste his own punishment and the horrors of it without putting just us sole little measly creatures thru it by ourselves.Now, as for me, I rather God gave me that choice. If I was just shown only one way and divinely protected all my life, then it would strip me of being an individual true-thinking entity. Reminds me of politics these days. Everyone wants the federal government to dish out benefits to them and tell them what's right and wrong. And then we wonder why we are losing freedoms. Well, the government is all beneficial and all powerful and wants only what is good for us. Right?
But since he's all powerful he could have washed away our sins without dying.Seems like showing off to me: "Hey look at me! I can die while washing away your sins at the same time!"Or it's just the greatest PR stunt of all time, I mean look how many people have miniatures and artwork depicting his mangled corpse in their homes.Also, if he did die, who resurrected him?
Well, I'll give God this much credit. Even if people think that he's a little off the rocker for allowing death to begin with, and even if they think he's ultimately unfair for allowing death even though he warned the first people of the consequences, I must say that he allowed himself to taste his own punishment and the horrors of it without putting just us sole little measly creatures thru it by ourselves.Now, as for me, I rather God gave me that choice. If I was just shown only one way and divinely protected all my life, then it would strip me of being an individual true-thinking entity. Reminds me of politics these days. Everyone wants the federal government to dish out benefits to them and tell them what's right and wrong. And then we wonder why we are losing freedoms. Well, the government is all beneficial and all powerful and wants only what is good for us. Right?
(tim_from_pa;58321)
Now, as for me, I rather God gave me that choice. If I was just shown only one way and divinely protected all my life, then it would strip me of being an individual true-thinking entity. Reminds me of politics these days. Everyone wants the federal government to dish out benefits to them and tell them what's right and wrong. And then we wonder why we are losing freedoms. Well, the government is all beneficial and all powerful and wants only what is good for us. Right?
So you're comparing an apparently all-loving and all-powerful God to an imperfect and man-made governmental system? That doesn't give a very good impression of God...If you had a child, which would you rather do: Protect your child from running out into the street to get run over by a car, or allow him the freedom to choose to run out into the street or not? When we're talking about eternal and unchangeable consequences here, I don't think that any amount of "free will" is worth the consequence. An "all-loving" God should love us enough to want to protect us from harm. Or at the very least, God should be able to set up the world so that we have free will and yet do not have the possibility of being tortured eternally...
Now, as for me, I rather God gave me that choice. If I was just shown only one way and divinely protected all my life, then it would strip me of being an individual true-thinking entity. Reminds me of politics these days. Everyone wants the federal government to dish out benefits to them and tell them what's right and wrong. And then we wonder why we are losing freedoms. Well, the government is all beneficial and all powerful and wants only what is good for us. Right?
So you're comparing an apparently all-loving and all-powerful God to an imperfect and man-made governmental system? That doesn't give a very good impression of God...If you had a child, which would you rather do: Protect your child from running out into the street to get run over by a car, or allow him the freedom to choose to run out into the street or not? When we're talking about eternal and unchangeable consequences here, I don't think that any amount of "free will" is worth the consequence. An "all-loving" God should love us enough to want to protect us from harm. Or at the very least, God should be able to set up the world so that we have free will and yet do not have the possibility of being tortured eternally...
tim_from_pa
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So you're comparing an apparently all-loving and all-powerful God to an imperfect and man-made governmental system? That doesn't give a very good impression of God...
I guess that's my point. If God did not let us have that freedom of will, then we'd be under control of Him the same way the government wants to control everyone. Not a good impression I agree.
If you had a child, which would you rather do: Protect your child from running out into the street to get run over by a car, or allow him the freedom to choose to run out into the street or not? When we're talking about eternal and unchangeable consequences here, I don't think that any amount of "free will" is worth the consequence. An "all-loving" God should love us enough to want to protect us from harm. Or at the very least, God should be able to set up the world so that we have free will and yet do not have the possibility of being tortured eternally..
I can see your point, if indeed that was my child. But that's the key word here: child. Once they are old enough to supposedly know better, I can admonish (like my grown children) but I cannot dictate their will to them. I would hope they take the better path. In Adam and Eve's case unfortunately, they did not.As for being tortured eternally, actually at this board we do not believe that. We believe that after a fair chance that one will be resurrected to be judged, and then cast into the lake of fire where they are extinguished as the book of II Esdras says. The book of Revelation and the rest of the bible clearly states that these people consciously and willingly disobeyed God. If they don't want a part of Him, then He is merely giving them what they want and that's not unfair.
I guess that's my point. If God did not let us have that freedom of will, then we'd be under control of Him the same way the government wants to control everyone. Not a good impression I agree.
If you had a child, which would you rather do: Protect your child from running out into the street to get run over by a car, or allow him the freedom to choose to run out into the street or not? When we're talking about eternal and unchangeable consequences here, I don't think that any amount of "free will" is worth the consequence. An "all-loving" God should love us enough to want to protect us from harm. Or at the very least, God should be able to set up the world so that we have free will and yet do not have the possibility of being tortured eternally..
I can see your point, if indeed that was my child. But that's the key word here: child. Once they are old enough to supposedly know better, I can admonish (like my grown children) but I cannot dictate their will to them. I would hope they take the better path. In Adam and Eve's case unfortunately, they did not.As for being tortured eternally, actually at this board we do not believe that. We believe that after a fair chance that one will be resurrected to be judged, and then cast into the lake of fire where they are extinguished as the book of II Esdras says. The book of Revelation and the rest of the bible clearly states that these people consciously and willingly disobeyed God. If they don't want a part of Him, then He is merely giving them what they want and that's not unfair.
(tim_from_pa;58359)
As for being tortured eternally, actually at this board we do not believe that.
Speak for yourself. Plenty of people on this board believe that hell is eternal torture. I've seen them argue about it in a thread dedicated to that very subject, and insofar as pure biblical backing for it goes I'm inclined to agree with them. Matthew 25:31-46 is rather explicit about it.
As for being tortured eternally, actually at this board we do not believe that.
Speak for yourself. Plenty of people on this board believe that hell is eternal torture. I've seen them argue about it in a thread dedicated to that very subject, and insofar as pure biblical backing for it goes I'm inclined to agree with them. Matthew 25:31-46 is rather explicit about it.
tomwebster
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(Lunar;58630)
Speak for yourself. Plenty of people on this board believe that hell is eternal torture. ...
I don't
Speak for yourself. Plenty of people on this board believe that hell is eternal torture. ...
I don't
(Lunar;58630)
(tim_from_pa;58359)
As for being tortured eternally, actually at this board we do not believe that.
Speak for yourself. Plenty of people on this board believe that hell is eternal torture. I've seen them argue about it in a thread dedicated to that very subject, and insofar as pure biblical backing for it goes I'm inclined to agree with them. Matthew 25:31-46 is rather explicit about it.Actually it doesn't. It actually unbiblical... and certainly, I'm not the one either to believe in a man-made tradition.
(tim_from_pa;58359)
As for being tortured eternally, actually at this board we do not believe that.
Speak for yourself. Plenty of people on this board believe that hell is eternal torture. I've seen them argue about it in a thread dedicated to that very subject, and insofar as pure biblical backing for it goes I'm inclined to agree with them. Matthew 25:31-46 is rather explicit about it.Actually it doesn't. It actually unbiblical... and certainly, I'm not the one either to believe in a man-made tradition.
(tomwebster;58631)
I don't
That's great, but it doesn't refute what I said.(thesuperjag)
Actually it doesn't. It actually unbiblical... and certainly, I'm not the one either to believe in a man-made tradition.
Why do you think Matthew 25:31-46 does not support the biblical view that hell is eternal torment? This isn't a man-made tradition, this is a bible passage we are talking about.
I don't
That's great, but it doesn't refute what I said.(thesuperjag)
Actually it doesn't. It actually unbiblical... and certainly, I'm not the one either to believe in a man-made tradition.
Why do you think Matthew 25:31-46 does not support the biblical view that hell is eternal torment? This isn't a man-made tradition, this is a bible passage we are talking about.
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