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God judge's the heart

Discussion in 'NonChristian Help Forum' started by heavenforbid, Feb 10, 2017.

  1. heavenforbid

    heavenforbid New Member

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    Many times I have heard this general reply when asking about upright people who have died. But they never believed in Jesus, so why would Jesus need to judge their hearts on that fact. They're sinners right? Their hearts don't matter if they don't believe.

    So why say it?
     
  2. lforrest

    lforrest Well-Known Member Staff Member Admin

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    It's a copout, so they can avoid judging the dead. And also a subtle warning to not judge them either because you don't know everything that is going on within them. Who knows, they may have a deathbed confession.

    But we know that the heart is wicked and from it comes evil desires, and from temptation sin. So everyone has sinned, because it is inevitable since our hearts are wicked. It establishes our need for atonement through Jesus Christ.
    Jeremiah 17:9-10 and Luke 6:45.
     
  3. heavenforbid

    heavenforbid New Member

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    Do you think it might be because those people can't square the idea of the alternative (Hell)
     
  4. lforrest

    lforrest Well-Known Member Staff Member Admin

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    If they didn't believe in hell then they would instead say the person is already in heaven, as many do even if it is unlikely. But by saying Jesus judges the heart they copout.
     
  5. junobet

    junobet Active Member

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    Maybe many supposed non-believers will be found to have had more faith than many self-proclaimed believers.
    “I am the Lord who searches the heart,
    who tests the inner depths
    to give to each person
    according to what he deserves,[e]
    according to the fruit of his deeds.” (Jeremiah 17:10)
    “18 A good tree cannot produce bad fruit, and a rotten tree cannot produce good fruit. 19 Every tree that doesn’t produce good fruit will be cut down and thrown into a fire. 20 So by their fruit you will know them. Not everyone who keeps saying to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will get into the kingdom from[d] heaven, but only the person who keeps doing the will of my Father in heaven. 22 Many will say to me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, we prophesied in your name, drove out demons in your name, and performed many miracles in your name, didn’t we?’ 23 Then I will tell them plainly, ‘I never knew you. Get away from me, you who practice evil!’” (Matthew 7:18-23)
     
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  6. heavenforbid

    heavenforbid New Member

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    Well, I thought if you don't accept Jesus you'd be toast.
     
  7. junobet

    junobet Active Member

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    So in your book Gandhi is toast whereas Hitler is saved for the mere ‘merit’ of outwardly subscribing to a set of Christian doctrines about Jesus without having shown any signs of what the Bible describes as the fruits of living faith?
     
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  8. heavenforbid

    heavenforbid New Member

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    Why am I saying that in your mind?
     
  9. junobet

    junobet Active Member

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    It sounds like the logical conclusion to your answer to my post, doesn’t it? That’s why I asked whether you really mean that.
    I hope not, but if so, you and I agree that we have to accept Jesus to be saved, but have a rather different idea of what “accepting Jesus” means: My personal belief that Christ preaches even to the dead aside (1 Peter 3:18-20), personally I think all good fruit stems from Christ abiding in people, because there is nothing we can do without Him (John 15:4). If somebody truly accepted Jesus, this acceptance should transpire in that person’s thoughts and actions. So maybe – just for the sake of an example – even unbeknownst to himself the Hindu Gandhi was dealt a bigger measure of living faith than the (nominal?) Christian Hitler was. Who knows, but God who searches our hearts? Lforrest may want to regard this as a cop-out, but I also think accepting Jesus means to accept that it is not for us to say who’s toast and who isn’t , and that we should never stop hoping and praying for the souls of our fellowmen just as we hope and pray for ourselves when we are working out our own salvation with fear and trembling (Philippians 2:12) . Else we run the danger of turning into the likes of the smug Pharisee Jesus describes in Luke 18:9-14.
     
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  10. heavenforbid

    heavenforbid New Member

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    I'd never turn into a Pharisees, I love prostitute's too much.
     
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  11. heavenforbid

    heavenforbid New Member

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    Take that Satan!
     
  12. bbyrd009

    bbyrd009 Groper

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    lol
     
  13. Job

    Job Well-Known Member

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    One can't accept Jesus if they've never heard of Him. Throughout scripture you'll read about how the Lord searches the heart. The verses below tells us exactly what He's looking for.

    Romans 2
    11 For there is no partiality with God.
    12 For as many as have sinned without law will also perish without law, and as many as have sinned in the law will be judged by the law
    13 (for not the hearers of the law are just in the sight of God, but the doers of the law will be justified;
    14 for when Gentiles, who do not have the law, by nature do the things in the law, these, although not having the law, are a law to themselves,
    15 who show the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and between themselves their thoughts accusing or else excusing them)
    16 in the day when God will judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ, according to my gospel.


    Countless millions have gone to their graves without ever hearing the name Jesus. I don't believe the Lord would condemn someone to an eternity in the lake of fire simply because they were born on the wrong continent.

    But that's just me...

    .
     
  14. Sword

    Sword Well-Known Member

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    How will they know least you go and tell them? How many Christians give an accurate discription of what Christ has accomplished for us.
    How many preach the good news with power IE evidence? They church tells them if you dont say this prayer you will go to hell. What kinda good news is that. And Christians love hiding behind well I told them Lord, I done my bit.
     
  15. bbyrd009

    bbyrd009 Groper

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    possibly a more accurate reflection is that of the Vineyard Owner with Two Sons. Just because a First Son has not (in someone's mind) "accepted Jesus into their hearts" does not mean that they are not accepted by God, as the parable of the Good Samaritan and other parables will attest. Of course some people will debate whether the Good Samaritan was "saved" or not, ignoring "Do not be deceived little children; those who do right, are right" imo, but when they have no reply to this, it seems you have all the answer you need?

    Similar, perhaps, to when i say that your mentioning hell in that context reveals that you serve from fear and not love, which i don't like how that will surely be taken, i came from that, too, ok, but the point is to examine why a fear of hell (that you cannot demonstrate from Scripture) occurs in the minds of those who are supposed to now have no condemnation in them, being In Christ.

    Are there those in whom are found nothing good, and they are only fit for Gehenna? Surely. Would you be at their funeral? You might, if you are a hypocrite, or pulled by some irresistible societal force--which amounts to hypocrisy--but see that those fit for Gehenna are not mourned, even by their closest family.
     
  16. bbyrd009

    bbyrd009 Groper

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    no, but one might manifest Christ anyway. A finer point might be that we seem to have got convinced that we can accept Christ with our mouths, somewhere along the line here, which i notice leads to having to ignore vast swaths of Scripture, and inevitably also to "all you need is faith" and "Jesus is coming back to change the world, tomorrow" type stuff.
     
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  17. Job

    Job Well-Known Member

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    I totally agree and you're absolutely right about people manifesting Christ in their daily lives even though they've never heard of Jesus or the God of Israel. That was the point of the passage I posted from Romans. It says exactly that. That must be one of the swaths of scripture ignored because I never hear anyone speak on it. All I ever hear is you have to accept Jesus or you're going to hell.

    Oh well...
     
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  18. bbyrd009

    bbyrd009 Groper

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    ha well of course that is the only message that sells, and churches after all have a business to run. Nehushtan, the worship of a Snake on a Pole, is there for anyone to read, regardless of whether or not your pastor will ever point it out to you--assuming that he is even aware of it himself.
     
  19. lforrest

    lforrest Well-Known Member Staff Member Admin

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    The assumption I make here is if someone like this heard of Jesus they would believe in Jesus. Like Jesus says about Abraham in John 8:39-40.

    So after hearing the gospel one must accept or reject it. It is possible they reject the message because of the evangelist themselves, and not because they oppose Jesus.
     
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