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Featured 'God manifest in the flesh'

Discussion in 'Christian Debate Forum' started by charity, Jul 26, 2020.

  1. charity

    charity Well-Known Member

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    'And without controversy great
    is the mystery of godliness:
    God was manifest in the flesh,
    .. justified in the Spirit,
    .... seen of angels,
    ...... preached unto the Gentiles,
    ........ believed on in the world,
    .......... received up into glory.'

    (1Timothy 3:16)

    Hello there,

    The apostasy of the last days of this dispensation is not a departure from faith in general, but from the particular and vital doctrine which is central to 1 Timothy, namely:- 'God manifest in the flesh'

    Thank you.
    In Christ Jesus
    Chris
     
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  2. 101G

    101G Well-Known Member

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    Hi charity,
    first thanks for the topic. maybe not but what people was taught before is what they believe and their doctrine that they believe in. the scripture is clear, Ephesians 4:22 "That ye put off concerning the former conversation the old man, which is corrupt according to the deceitful lusts;"
    Ephesians 4:23 "And be renewed in the spirit of your mind;"
    the only way many are going to come out of apostasy is to be taught by the Holy Spirit. 1 Corinthians 2:13 "Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual."

    PICJAG.
     
  3. Joseph77

    Joseph77 Well-Known Member

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    This may be a specific and particular description throughout the world , vital, yes...

    but it seems not contradictory to realize that the falling away from trusting Jesus , from trusting the Father in heaven,
    is and has been world wide and common for hundreds of years. (i.e. in general, with many "specifics" part of that )
     
  4. 101G

    101G Well-Known Member

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    After the Lord Jesus clean out a few bad apples, (Ananias and Sapphira his wife). people was mindful to join the church on misguided pretense. thinking they can just lie to God and lay in his ARMS.
    Acts 5:12 "And by the hands of the apostles were many signs and wonders wrought among the people; (and they were all with one accord in Solomon's porch."
    Acts 5:13 "And of the rest durst no man join himself to them: but the people magnified them."

    God knows how to separate sheep and goats before the judgment. he always "warns".

    PICJAG.
     
  5. bbyrd009

    bbyrd009 Groper

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    I said "you are elohim"
     
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  6. tigger 2

    tigger 2 Active Member

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    SPURIOUS!

    1 Tim. 3:16 ("God was manifest in the flesh")

    As this is translated in the KJV it makes Paul say that Jesus is God “manifest in the flesh.”

    Although the KJV translates 1 Tim. 3:16 with “God” as above, nearly all other translations today use a word which refers, not to God, but to Jesus: “he (NIV; RSV; NRSV; JB; NJB; REB; NAB [‘70]; AT; GNB; CBW; and Beck’s translation), “he who (ASV; NASB; NEB; MLB; BBE; Phillips; and Moffatt),who,” orwhich.” Even the equally old Douay version has “which was manifested in the flesh.”

    All the very best modern NT texts by trinitarian scholars (including Westcott and Hort, Nestle, and the text by the United Bible Societies) have the NT Greek word ὃς (“who”) here instead of θεὸς (“God”).Why do the best trinitarian scholars support this NON-trinitarian translation of 1 Tim. 3:16?

    Noted Bible scholar Dr. Frederick C. Grant writes:

    “A capital example [of NT manuscript changes] is found in 1 Timothy 3:16, where ‘OS’ (OC or ὃς, who’) was later taken for theta sigma with a bar above, which stood for theos (θεὸς, ‘god’). Since the new reading suited …. the orthodox doctrine of the church [trinitarian, at this later date], it got into many of the later manuscripts .....” – p. 656, Encyclopedia Americana, vol. 3, 1957 ed. (This same statement by Dr. Grant was still to be found in the latest Encyclopedia Americana that I examined – the 1990 ed., pp.696-698, vol. 3.)

    A Textual Commentary on the Greek New Testament by the United Bible Societies (1971 ed.) tells why the trinitarian UBS Committee chose ὃς [‘who’ or ‘he who’] as the original reading in their NT text for this verse:

    “it is supported by the earliest and best uncials.” And, “Thus, no uncial (in the first hand [by the ORIGINAL writer]) earlier than the eighth or ninth century supports θεὸς [“God”]; all ancient versions presuppose ὃς [or OC, “who” - masc.] or [“which” - neut.]; and no patristic writer prior to the last third of the fourth century [370 A.D.] testifies to the reading θεὸς. The reading θεὸς arose either (a) accidentally, through the misreading of OC as ΘC, or (b) deliberately....” - p. 641.

    In actuality it appears to be a combination of both (with the emphasis on the latter). You see, the word ὃς was written in the most ancient manuscripts as OC (“C” being a common form for the ancient Greek letter “S” at that time). Most often at this time the word for God (θεὸς) was written in abbreviated form as ΘC. However, to show that it was an abbreviated form a straight line, or bar, was always drawn above ΘC. So no copyist should have mistaken ὃς (or OC) for ΘC, in spite of their similarities, simply because of the prominent bar which appeared over the one and not over the other.

    What may have happened was discovered by John J. Wetstein in 1714. As he was carefully examining one of the oldest NT manuscripts then known (the Alexandrine Manuscript in London) he noticed at 1 Tim. 3:16 that the word originally written there was OC but that a horizontal stroke from one of the words written on the other side of the manuscript showed through very faintly in the middle of the O. This still would not qualify as an abbreviation for θεὸς, of course, but Wetstein discovered that some person at a much later date and in a different style from the original writer had deliberately added a bar above the original word! Anyone copying from this manuscript after it had been deliberately changed would be likely to incorporate the counterfeit ΘC [with bar above it] into his new copy (especially since it reflected his own trinitarian views)!

    Of course, since Wetstein’s day many more ancient NT manuscripts have been discovered and none of them before the eighth century A.D. have been found with ΘC (“God”) at this verse!

    Trinitarian scholar Murray J. Harris also concludes: “The strength of the external evidence favoring OC [‘who’], along with considerations of transcriptional and intrinsic probability, have prompted textual critics virtually unanimously to regard OC as the original text, a judgment reflected in NA(26) [Nestle-Aland text] and UBS (1,2,3) [United Bible Societies text] (with a ‘B’ rating) [also the Westcott and Hort text]. Accordingly, 1 Tim 3:16 is not an instance of the Christological [‘Jesus is God’] use of θεὸς.” - Jesus as God, p. 268, Baker Book House, 1992.

    And very trinitarian (Southern Baptist) NT Greek scholar A. T. Robertson wrote about this scripture:

    He who (hos [or OC in the original text]). The correct text, not theos (God) the reading of the Textus Receptus ... nor ho (neuter relative [pronoun]), agreeing with [the neuter] musterion [‘mystery’] the reading of Western documents.” - p. 577, Vol. 4, Word Pictures in the New Testament, Broadman Press.

    And even trinitarian NT Greek scholar, Daniel B. Wallace uses the relative pronoun ὃς (‘who’) in this scripture and tells us:

    “The textual variant θεὸς [‘god’] in the place of ὃς [‘who’ or ‘he who’] has been adamantly defended by some scholars, particularly those of the ‘majority text’ school. Not only is such a reading poorly attested, but the syntactical argument that ‘mystery’ (μυστήριον) being a neuter noun, cannot be followed by the masculine pronoun (ὃς) is entirely without weight. As attractive theologically [for trinitarians, of course] as the reading θεὸς may be, it is spurious. To reject it is not to deny the deity of Christ, of course; it is just to deny any explicit reference in this text.” [italicized emphasis is by Wallace]. - pp. 341-342, Greek Grammar Beyond the Basics, Zondervan, 1996.

    The correct rendering of 1 Tim. 3:16, then, is: “He who was revealed in the flesh ….” - NASB. Cf. ASV; RSV; NRSV; NAB; JB; NJB; NIV; NEB; REB; ESV; Douay-Rheims; TEV; CEV; BBE; NLV; God’s Word; New Century Version; Holman NT; ISV NT; Lexham English Bible; The Message; Weymouth; Moffatt; etc.
     
  7. Enoch111

    Enoch111 Well-Known Member

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    These are NOT the best but THE WORST. Obviously you do not want the truth since you do not believe that Jesus is God. But that word is and abbreviated form of THEOS in the uncials and shows a line above the omega (which is how the abbreviation is made).

    For those who want the truth, kindly read Dean John William Burgon's dissertation on 1 Timothy 3:16 in The Revision Revised. "GOD" is found in almost all the Greek manuscripts, other than a couple of corrupt manuscripts (which were followed by the likes of Westcott, Hort, Nestle, UBS, etc.).
     
  8. charity

    charity Well-Known Member

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    @101G, @Joseph77, @bbyrd009, @tigger 2, @Enoch111

    Thank you all for your input. I am surprised to see so many posts. This subject, which concerns the deity of Christ, is vitally important I believe, and so much under attack within recent times.

    John tells us, 'The Word was made flesh and dwelt among us' - how wonderful this is!!

    Praise God!

    Thank you
    In Christ Jesus
    Chris
     
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  9. 101G

    101G Well-Known Member

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    Isaiah 35:4 "Say to them that are of a fearful heart, Be strong, fear not: behold, your God will come with vengeance, even God with a recompence; he will come and save you."

    ok tigger 2, who came and saved us?

    PICJAG.
     
  10. kcnalp

    kcnalp Well-Known Member

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    All Bible believers know that Jesus is God.

    John 1 The Word was God.
     
  11. Waiting on him

    Waiting on him Well-Known Member

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    Wow that's alot.

    Titus 1:3 KJV
    But hath in due times manifested his word through preaching, which is committed unto me according to the commandment of God our Saviour;
    Is this mistranslated also?

    I mean should it read according to the commandment of ( who ) our savior?
     
  12. tigger 2

    tigger 2 Active Member

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    Titus 1:3 reads "God" correctly according to the NT Greek texts.
     
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  13. Joseph77

    Joseph77 Well-Known Member

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    blueletterbible.org/lang/lexicon/lexicon.cfm?page=19&strongs=G2316&t=
    KJV#lexResults

    Tit 1:3
    But hath in due times manifested his word through preaching, which is committed unto me according to the commandment of God <G2316> our Saviour;


    KJV Translation Count — Total: 1,343x
    The KJV translates Strong's <G2316> in the following manner: God (1,320x), god (13x), godly (3x), God-ward (with G4214) (2x), miscellaneous (5x).
     
  14. 101G

    101G Well-Known Member

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    Titus 1:4 "To Titus, mine own son after the common faith: Grace, mercy, and peace, from God the Father and the Lord Jesus Christ our Saviour."
    who is our SAVIOUR? lets see, Titus 2:10 "Not purloining, but shewing all good fidelity; that they may adorn the doctrine of God our Saviour in all things."
    well the Question is which is the Saviour, lets check the record, Isaiah 43:3 "For I am the LORD thy God, the Holy One of Israel, thy Saviour: I gave Egypt for thy ransom, Ethiopia and Seba for thee."

    HOLD IT, IS NOT THE "Lord" Jesus the Christ the Saviour the Son according to Titus 1:4? but Isaiah 43:3 say the "LORD" all caps is the saviour. do we have a contridiction in the bible as to who the saviour is?. NO. only one person is saviour and he is JESUS, and he's Lord, (Son) and GOD, (Father).

    PICJAG.
     
  15. Waiting on him

    Waiting on him Well-Known Member

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    Ok, so for all the trinitarians out there, I thought Jesus is our savior?
     
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  16. Giuliano

    Giuliano Well-Known Member

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    People, if they have received the Gospel, have also received the Word. What good does believing the Word was made flesh in Jesus if it does not become flesh also in those who receive the Word? Can God be made manifest in us?

    Matthew 13:23 But he that received seed into the good ground is he that heareth the word, and understandeth it; which also beareth fruit, and bringeth forth, some an hundredfold, some sixty, some thirty.

    James 1:21 Wherefore lay apart all filthiness and superfluity of naughtiness, and receive with meekness the engrafted word, which is able to save your souls.

    John 1:12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:
    13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.
     
  17. Joseph77

    Joseph77 Well-Known Member

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    Jesus is the only savior from our sins....

    Not everyone's savior though.... multitudes die and perish forever - not saved, already today condemned because of their unbelief.

    What does you slur mean "for all the trinitarians" ?
     
  18. Joseph77

    Joseph77 Well-Known Member

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    He's not the Son and the Father. Why the error , who taught you ?
     
  19. 101G

    101G Well-Known Member

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    first thanks for the reply, second Jesus the Holy Spirit taught me. and what he taught me is his diversity in flesh.

    and?

    PICJAG.
     
  20. Joseph77

    Joseph77 Well-Known Member

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    No one is more deceived, apparently....

    The spirits must be tested, especially as yours lied to you and contradicted all Scripture.
     
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