God's willingness to forgive.

[Fuddy]

Yeah, I know, it's been covered over and over, but still I want to put it out there to maybe get a fresh take on this?

Peter asked Jesus how many times he should forgive his brother if that brother, having sinned against him, came and asked yet again, sincerely, for forgiveness from him.

Jesus said, essentially (if I'm interpreting His answer correctly), to just keep on forgiving him - indefinitely (again, assuming the friend's repentance was genuine and sincere).

We are called to emulate Jesus. To be transformed to his image, to strive to act and do as He would.

Therefore, may we also expect God to forgive us, if, after falling to sin over and over, and receiving strong conviction of the absolute wrongness of that crime against him we confess it before him in sincere repentance?

Seems to be plenty of scripture to suggest a yes to that question, but then others that suggest otherwise (as in Hebrews 6:4-6 and 10:26, 27). The Hebrews reference may be referring to a sinful return to animal sacrifice, or maybe not. It doesn't specify, just says "sin".

If this is too tired a discussion topic, just ignore it. But people keep on bringing it up for a reason. It's disturbing, and when I think of it's potential implications, personally, well, I sense a nascent dread creeping up from the quiet pool of doubt that underlies my Hope in Him.

Thanks folks.

 

[Jane_Doe22]

There’s a couple of things that people mix up here, but they really should be kept separate:

1. You are required to always forgive. This doesn’t mean the other person “gets off the hook”, but rather we surrender our bitterness to Christ and let Him replace that hurt with healing. He alone is the judge.

2. Giving forgiveness does not mean consequences don’t still exist or that we shouldn’t establish healthy boundaries.

3. Real repentance is not a whimsical “I’m sorry” but a true change of heart.

 

[LearningToLetGo]

Matthew 18:21-22 ESV
The Parable of the Unforgiving Servant
21 Then Peter came up and said to him, “Lord, how often will my brother sin against me, and I forgive him? As many as seven times?” 22 Jesus said to him, “I do not say to you seven times, but seventy-seven times.​

I assume "seventy-seven" is poetic for "as many times as it takes." Of course, this is man forgiving man, not God forgiving man, but you raise an interesting point.

 

[Fuddy]

I guess what I'm asking is, is there a point where God says "Enough!" and shuts the door on us, and will not accept another request for mercy and forgiveness for a sin(s) we keep falling to, despite our best efforts to turn from it\them?

Or will he still find mercy in Himself for that person, if the repentance is serious and genuine, and that person's hope and trust that God will deliver him from his weakness is relentless and will win the struggle?

 

[Lambano]

I assume "seventy-seven" is poetic for "as many times as it takes."

I think that in mentioning "seventy times seven", Jesus was intentionally making a subtle echo of Daniel's "seventy sevens", "seven" being the literal meaning of the word usually translated "weeks":

“Seventy sevens have been decreed for your people and your holy city, to finish the transgression, to make an end of sin, to make atonement for iniquity, to bring in everlasting righteousness, to seal up vision and prophecy and to anoint the most holy place." (Daniel 9:24)

In other words, you forgive until there is no more sin and transgression to forgive.

Or, "as many times as it takes".

Echo. Listen for it.

 

[farouk]

I think that in mentioning "seventy times seven", Jesus was intentionally making a subtle echo of Daniel's "seventy sevens", "seven" being the literal meaning of the word usually translated "weeks":

“Seventy sevens have been decreed for your people and your holy city, to finish the transgression, to make an end of sin, to make atonement for iniquity, to bring in everlasting righteousness, to seal up vision and prophecy and to anoint the most holy place." (Daniel 9:24)

In other words, you forgive until there is no more sin and transgression to forgive.

Or, "as many times as it takes".

Echo. Listen for it.

@Lambano Similar to the figure of speech at the end of John's Gospel about the world being unable to contain the books....

 

[Lambano]

Therefore, may we also expect God to forgive us, if, after falling to sin over and over, and receiving strong conviction of the absolute wrongness of that crime against him we confess it before him in sincere repentance?

I guess what I'm asking is, is there a point where God says "Enough!" and shuts the door on us, and will not accept another request for mercy and forgiveness for a sin(s) we keep falling to, despite our best efforts to turn from it\them?

Or will he still find mercy in Himself for that person, if the repentance is serious and genuine, and that person's hope and trust that God will deliver him from his weakness is relentless and will win the struggle?

The teaching of the Matthew 18:21-35 passage you referenced only works if we can trust that God WILL forgive us. 'Should you not also have had mercy on your fellow slave, in the same way that I had mercy on you?’ I trust that Jesus wouldn't lie to us about that.

 

[Lambano]

@Lambano Similar to the figure of speech at the end of John's Gospel about the world being unable to contain the books....

"Echo" is when the author intentionally phrases something in a way similar to some other writing that should be familiar to his audience The purpose is to bring to mind the earlier scripture without directly quoting it. Theologian Richard Hays brought this technique up in his book, Echoes of Scripture in the Writings of Paul. Paul apparently uses it a lot.

It's subtle - and Jesus can be very subtle.

 

[farouk]

"Echo" is when the author intentionally phrases something in a way similar to some other writing that should be familiar to his audience The purpose is to bring to mind the earlier scripture without directly quoting it. Theologian Richard Hays brought this technique up in his book, Echoes of Scripture in the Writings of Paul. Paul apparently uses it a lot.

It's subtle - and Jesus can be very subtle.

The John 21 figure of speech is similar to a verse in Amos....

 

[Lambano]

Seems to be plenty of scripture to suggest a yes to that question, but then others that suggest otherwise (as in Hebrews 6:4-6 and 10:26, 27). The Hebrews reference may be referring to a sinful return to animal sacrifice, or maybe not. It doesn't specify, just says "sin".

One of themes of Hebrews is warnings against apostacy. Against abandoning Christ in the face of persecution. This isn't merely a besetting sin. It's rejecting the One who can save you.

 

[Lambano]

The John 21 figure of speech is similar to a verse in Amos....

Now you're going to make me look it up, aren't you?

 

[farouk]

One of themes of Hebrews is warnings against apostacy. Against abandoning Christ in the face of persecution. This isn't merely a besetting sin. It's rejecting the One who can save you.

@Lambano I love how Hebrews 11 and its examples of the faith of the OT saints is followed on by an exhortation to keep 'looking unto Jesus' in Hebrews 12.2.....

 

[RedFan]

I guess what I'm asking is, is there a point where God says "Enough!" and shuts the door on us, and will not accept another request for mercy and forgiveness for a sin(s) we keep falling to, despite our best efforts to turn from it\them?

Or will he still find mercy in Himself for that person, if the repentance is serious and genuine, and that person's hope and trust that God will deliver him from his weakness is relentless and will win the struggle?

I think Matt. 6:14 and Matt. 7:2 come into play here. If we forgive, we will be forgiven. If we forgive 70 x 7 times (cute metaphor), we will be forgiven 70 x 7 times. So there isn't a limit on how many times God will forgive us.

The more interesting question (to me at least) is whether forgiving others is enough to get our own sins forgiven. If it's not, then Matt. 6:14 and Matt 7:2 are literally untrue.

(In the short time I've been perusing this forum, I've noticed that literal truth of every Bible verse is favored by the majority of posters on this site -- the same majority who will tell you that only faith in Christ leads to forgiveness of sin, and that without that faith your sins will not be forgiven regardless of how many times you forgive your neighbor, how many times you repent, etc. The mental machinations they will go through to salvage the literal truth of verses like Matt. 6:14 and square it with sola fide will astonish you. Buckle up, Fuddy!)

 

[Angelina]

Yeah, I know, it's been covered over and over, but still I want to put it out there to maybe get a fresh take on this?

Peter asked Jesus how many times he should forgive his brother if that brother, having sinned against him, came and asked yet again, sincerely, for forgiveness from him.

Jesus said, essentially (if I'm interpreting His answer correctly), to just keep on forgiving him - indefinitely (again, assuming the friend's repentance was genuine and sincere).

We are called to emulate Jesus. To be transformed to his image, to strive to act and do as He would.

Therefore, may we also expect God to forgive us, if, after falling to sin over and over, and receiving strong conviction of the absolute wrongness of that crime against him we confess it before him in sincere repentance?

Seems to be plenty of scripture to suggest a yes to that question, but then others that suggest otherwise (as in Hebrews 6:4-6 and 10:26, 27). The Hebrews reference may be referring to a sinful return to animal sacrifice, or maybe not. It doesn't specify, just says "sin".

If this is too tired a discussion topic, just ignore it. But people keep on bringing it up for a reason. It's disturbing, and when I think of it's potential implications, personally, well, I sense a nascent dread creeping up from the quiet pool of doubt that underlies my Hope in Him.

Thanks folks.

You need to forgive others of their tressppases against you because if you do not forgive, your sins will not be covered by Christ's blood and you will not be able to enter the kingdom of heaven because of it - Matthew 6:15.

 

[dev553344]

Yeah, I know, it's been covered over and over, but still I want to put it out there to maybe get a fresh take on this?

Peter asked Jesus how many times he should forgive his brother if that brother, having sinned against him, came and asked yet again, sincerely, for forgiveness from him.

Jesus said, essentially (if I'm interpreting His answer correctly), to just keep on forgiving him - indefinitely (again, assuming the friend's repentance was genuine and sincere).

We are called to emulate Jesus. To be transformed to his image, to strive to act and do as He would.

Therefore, may we also expect God to forgive us, if, after falling to sin over and over, and receiving strong conviction of the absolute wrongness of that crime against him we confess it before him in sincere repentance?

Seems to be plenty of scripture to suggest a yes to that question, but then others that suggest otherwise (as in Hebrews 6:4-6 and 10:26, 27). The Hebrews reference may be referring to a sinful return to animal sacrifice, or maybe not. It doesn't specify, just says "sin".

If this is too tired a discussion topic, just ignore it. But people keep on bringing it up for a reason. It's disturbing, and when I think of it's potential implications, personally, well, I sense a nascent dread creeping up from the quiet pool of doubt that underlies my Hope in Him.

Thanks folks.

Yes we must forgive others if we hope to be forgiven. And we should repent. There is much scriptural support of these two concepts. There is works meet for repentance. And faith without works is dead. We are not saved by works. And I think that helps. In a 12 step program you continue to carry the message to others that still suffer, and that is a prototype on how religion works. We carry the message and hope of salvation to others. And then the program works and so does religion.

 

[ChristisGod]

I guess what I'm asking is, is there a point where God says "Enough!" and shuts the door on us, and will not accept another request for mercy and forgiveness for a sin(s) we keep falling to, despite our best efforts to turn from it\them?

Or will he still find mercy in Himself for that person, if the repentance is serious and genuine, and that person's hope and trust that God will deliver him from his weakness is relentless and will win the struggle?

Hebrews 10
let us draw near to God with a sincere heart and with the full assurance that faith brings, having our hearts sprinkled to cleanse us from a guilty conscience and having our bodies washed with pure water. 23 Let us hold unswervingly to the hope we profess, for he who promised is faithful. 24 And let us consider how we may spur one another on toward love and good deeds, 25 not giving up meeting together, as some are in the habit of doing, but encouraging one another—and all the more as you see the Day approaching.

26 If we deliberately keep on sinning after we have received the knowledge of the truth, no sacrifice for sins is left, 27 but only a fearful expectation of judgment and of raging fire that will consume the enemies of God. 28 Anyone who rejected the law of Moses died without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses. 29 How much more severely do you think someone deserves to be punished who has trampled the Son of God underfoot, who has treated as an unholy thing the blood of the covenant that sanctified them, and who has insulted the Spirit of grace? 30 For we know him who said, “It is mine to avenge; I will repay,” and again, “The Lord will judge his people.”31 It is a dreadful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.

 

[marks]

Jesus said, essentially (if I'm interpreting His answer correctly), to just keep on forgiving him - indefinitely (again, assuming the friend's repentance was genuine and sincere).

We are called to emulate Jesus. To be transformed to his image, to strive to act and do as He would.

Therefore, may we also expect God to forgive us, if, after falling to sin over and over, and receiving strong conviction of the absolute wrongness of that crime against him we confess it before him in sincere repentance?

For me the answer is found here:

2 Corinthians 5:18-19 KJV
18) And all things are of God, who hath reconciled us to himself by Jesus Christ, and hath given to us the ministry of reconciliation;
19) To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.

I believe our call is to live forgiveness, that is, not to count anyone's actions against them. That even as someone is sinning, and their sin affects us negatively, that we don't consider that they are doing anything against us, only to consider what we can do to help them know God, be reconciled to God, become mature in God.

Much love!

 

[Fuddy]

Marks - but what about Hebrews 10:26, as Christophany referenced above? I mean, isn't ALL sin deliberate?

What is the point at which "no sacrifice is left"?

Yes, I sinned after tasting the truth, and it was deliberate - many times, on and off, for years. Then the conviction would hit, I'd repent (or thought I did) and be OK for a while.

That pattern has been broken at this point in time, as the conviction became unbearable and the realization that I was committing real crimes against God, other people, and myself fully hit home.

So how do I know where I stand now, in light of the HEB 10:26 reference???

How do you reconcile the apparent contradiction of " if we confess to him our sins, he is faithful to forgive us our sins and cleanse us of all unrigeousness", with HEB 10:26???

 

[stunnedbygrace]

That pattern has been broken at this point in time, as the conviction became unbearable and the realization that I was committing real crimes against God, other people, and myself fully hit home.

But this is good! Unless, and until, you see yourself that clearly and accurately, you will not hate your life and be willing to pick up your cross.