God's Wrath Upon Jesus on The Cross??

[Davy]

I've heard this silly idea preached by some in the pulpit, that The Father just totally abandoned Lord Jesus upon His cross, and even poured out His Wrath upon Lord Jesus by His going through the crucifixion! The reality is, that to teach such an idea shows gross Biblical illiteracy!

Those preachers simply do not... study all their Bible. They follow fad messages they hear others speak, and a lot of the time those they listen to are crept in unawares that exist to destroy Christ and His Word.

Matt 27:46
46 And about the ninth hour Jesus cried with a loud voice, saying, "Eli, Eli, lama sabachthani?" that is to say, "My God, My God, why hast Thou forsaken Me?"
KJV

Lord Jesus, while upon His cross, said that "Eli, Eli, ....", which is in the Aramaic language.

Some preachers will quote that and then go on a false tirade of how The Father abandoned Lord Jesus on His cross, making Him suffer, and it's almost like the preacher wants you to literally 'feel' the pain Lord Jesus went through on His cross! Some fake preachers even go farther with guilt tripping and try to say that WE killed Jesus! When you hear junk ideas like that from the pulpit, then you ought to know that preachers has been listening to the crept in unawares, Christ's enemies like wolves in sheep's clothing that sneak in among God's people.

The reason Lord Jesus said that, "Eli, Eli, lama sabachthani", was because He was still TEACHING, even while upon His cross!

Jesus was quoting the Psalms 22:1 verse, which Psalms 22 is a prophecy about Christ's crucifixion given about 1,000 years before through king David. Why would Lord Jesus quote that while upon the cross?

It was to SHOW that He is The Christ, The Messiah, prophesied to come per The Old Testament prophets! (yes, David was a prophet also). Right then, while upon the cross, He was revealing the fulfillment of that Psalms 22 prophecy He gave through king David about a thousand years prior.

So WHY... did the scribes and Pharisees not recognize His quote from Psalms 22? I mean, they supposedly knew what was written in the law and the prophets, right?

The point is, Lord Jesus 'chose' to suffer upon His cross, and The Father certainly did NOT abandon Lord Jesus while upon His cross. Lord Jesus knew He would suffer like us in the flesh, that was part of His purpose for being born in the flesh like us, and His Sacrifice was to defeat death for us, and He did, which only God could do.

So when you hear some preacher get up at the pulpit and go on a tirade about how The Father abandoned Lord Jesus while upon His cross, then just put your hand over your face and try to hide your disgust until that preacher gets done with that false fad message created by the wolves in sheep's clothing.

 

[GISMYS_7]

Jesus took upon Himself all of our sins and bought us a pardon with His shed blood and sacrifice if we believe and accept it.
Matthew 26:39
“And he went a little further, and fell on his face, and prayed, saying, O my Father, if it be possible, let this cup pass from me: nevertheless not as I will, but as thou wilt.”

 

[Davy]

Jesus took upon Himself all of our sins and bought us a pardon with His shed blood and sacrifice if we believe and accept it.
Matthew 26:39
“And he went a little further, and fell on his face, and prayed, saying, O my Father, if it be possible, let this cup pass from me: nevertheless not as I will, but as thou wilt.”

Yes, He did. But what actually is that "cup" He was pointing to? I believe He was referring to the future cup of God's Wrath poured out upon the wicked on the last day of this world at His future coming, per Revelation 19. I fathom Him being more concerned about having to do that future event than worrying about Himself upon His cross like some want to think.

I mean, IF we try to treat Lord Jesus when He was in the flesh exactly like us in the flesh, then wouldn't it mean that He had sin like us? Yet as written, He was without sin. That means He was NOT tempted by His flesh, otherwise He would have had sin; and just who would want us to believe Jesus sinned while in the flesh?

 

[Windmillcharge]

I believe He was referring to the future cup of God's Wrath poured out upon the wicked on the last da

Why then would he ask for this ' cup ' to pass from him. He was about to be beaten, flogged and crucified something that anyone would want to avoid. Let alone the problem of bearing All our sin, its guilt, shame and punishment.

Jesus could carry our sin and take our punishment because he was sinless.

 

[Davy]

Why then would he ask for this ' cup ' to pass from him. He was about to be beaten, flogged and crucified something that anyone would want to avoid. Let alone the problem of bearing All our sin, its guilt, shame and punishment.

Jesus could carry our sin and take our punishment because he was sinless.

My argument is with those who treat Lord Jesus LIKE US AS FLESH SINNERS. You are not Lord Jesus, nor am I. I'm a sinner, as you are too. ALL of us EXCEPT Lord Jesus have sinned. The goal of the doctrine of Gnosticism by the children of darkness is to try and get us to think that Lord Jesus was NOT without sin. They refuse to believe Jesus died on the cross. They believe Jesus married and had flesh children, etc. They try to prove that Jesus was just like us.

So why in the world would anyone want to associate an idea like Jesus being weak in the flesh LIKE US, when He was not? He was sinless, like you say, was He not? That means... He did NOT succumb to the weakness of flesh.

Do you not recall Luke 4 where at the start of His Ministry He was tempted by the devil, and the devil tempted Him how? By tempting His flesh. So was Lord Jesus truly tempted by the devil with that? Not one bit. Instead, Jesus rebuked the devil.

 

[quietthinker]

Luke 6:27-36 reads like this:-

27 “But to you who are listening I say: Love your enemies, do good to those who hate you, 28 bless those who curse you, pray for those who mistreat you. 29 If someone slaps you on one cheek, turn to them the other also. If someone takes your coat, do not withhold your shirt from them. 30 Give to everyone who asks you, and if anyone takes what belongs to you, do not demand it back. 31 Do to others as you would have them do to you.

32 “If you love those who love you, what credit is that to you? Even sinners love those who love them. 33 And if you do good to those who are good to you, what credit is that to you? Even sinners do that. 34 And if you lend to those from whom you expect repayment, what credit is that to you? Even sinners lend to sinners, expecting to be repaid in full. 35 But love your enemies, do good to them, and lend to them without expecting to get anything back. Then your reward will be great, and you will be children of the Most High, because he is kind to the ungrateful and wicked. 36 Be merciful, just as your Father is merciful.

When God says, 'this is my beloved son in whom I am well pleased' after Jesus baptism in John 3:22, and again on the mount of transfiguration in Matthew 17:5, does that sound like one who is wrathful against Jesus? Does it sound like one who would kill Jesus or has man's theology bungled the whole thing and projected/superimposed mans wrath toward Jesus onto God??

or, has Jesus opening remark in Luke 6:27 (go on, read it again) qualified those who hold that some men and women, even the majority of men and women will fry in hell for eternity..... as those who are not listening???

 

[Dropship]

..So when you hear some preacher get up at the pulpit and go on a tirade about how The Father abandoned Lord Jesus while upon His cross, then just put your hand over your face and try to hide your disgust..

I'd just get up and walk out..

 

[face2face]

Yes, He did. But what actually is that "cup" He was pointing to?

The cup of suffering is his looming crucifixion.

 

[RedFan]

The reason Lord Jesus said that, "Eli, Eli, lama sabachthani", was because He was still TEACHING, even while upon His cross!

Jesus was quoting the Psalms 22:1 verse, which Psalms 22 is a prophecy about Christ's crucifixion given about 1,000 years before through king David. Why would Lord Jesus quote that while upon the cross?

It was to SHOW that He is The Christ, The Messiah, prophesied to come per The Old Testament prophets! (yes, David was a prophet also). Right then, while upon the cross, He was revealing the fulfillment of that Psalms 22 prophecy He gave through king David about a thousand years prior.

Let me offer a different suggestion. Jesus was in the throes of agony, felt forsaken, and quoted the Psalm simply because its words came to mind (particularly after he saw the soldiers dividing his garments by casting lots and heard the chief priests and scribes mocking him with his apparent inability to save himself) -- without any intention to have a teaching moment for posterity.

Consider the possibility that the teaching moment was Matthew's rather than Christ's.

 

[Davy]

I'd just get up and walk out..

Hard for me to do, because I then would want to hear what other lies that preacher would push next, just to know how deep in deception they go.

 

[Davy]

The cup of suffering is his looming crucifixion.

Of course Jesus suffered upon the cross.

 

[Davy]

Let me offer a different suggestion. Jesus was in the throes of agony, felt forsaken, and quoted the Psalm simply because its words came to mind (particularly after he saw the soldiers dividing his garments by casting lots and heard the chief priests and scribes mocking him with his apparent inability to save himself) -- without any intention to have a teaching moment for posterity.

Consider the possibility that the teaching moment was Matthew's rather than Christ's.

Apostle Matthew did not die on the cross then, it was Jesus of Nazareth.

Jesus as God in The Old Testament time is Who gave... king David the prophecy in Psalms 22 about His crucifixion! And you think Lord Jesus had to do a recall of what His crucifixion was about, like, "Oh, yeah, I'm here dying on this cross, this was written about a 1,000 years ago, wasn't it. I think I'll tell them about that."?

Lord Jesus was definitely still... teaching, even upon His cross while His flesh suffered.

 

[Davy]

Luke 6:27-36 reads like this:-

....
When God says, 'this is my beloved son in whom I am well pleased' after Jesus baptism in John 3:22, and again on the mount of transfiguration in Matthew 17:5, does that sound like one who is wrathful against Jesus? Does it sound like one who would kill Jesus or has man's theology bungled the whole thing and projected/superimposed mans wrath toward Jesus onto God??

or, has Jesus opening remark in Luke 6:27 (go on, read it again) qualified those who hold that some men and women, even the majority of men and women will fry in hell for eternity..... as those who are not listening???

You know some folks even wrongly think that God made an error with creating man because of what He said in Genesis 6:5-6. Our Heavenly Father doesn't make errors. Those who think He did are not understanding what He was pointing to.

 

[ChristisGod]

Why then would he ask for this ' cup ' to pass from him. He was about to be beaten, flogged and crucified something that anyone would want to avoid. Let alone the problem of bearing All our sin, its guilt, shame and punishment.

Jesus could carry our sin and take our punishment because he was sinless.

The following scriptures affirm that Jesus' relationship with the Father on the cross was still there and not broken.

Psalm 22:24
For he has not despised or scorned
the suffering of the afflicted one;
he has not hidden his face from him
but has listened to his cry for help.


Luke 23:46
Jesus called out with a loud voice, "Father, into your hands I commit my spirit." When he had said this, he breathed his last.

John 16:32
"A time is coming and in fact has come when you will be scattered, each to your own home. You will leave me all alone. Yet I am not alone, for my Father is with me."


Hebrews 5:7
During the days of Jesus’ life on earth, he offered up prayers and petitions with fervent cries and tears to the one who could save him from death, and he was heard because of his reverent submission.


Jesus' promise to the thief on the cross that today you will be with Me in Paradise reaffirms Jesus went to be with the Father and not suffer in hell as some teach.


Jesus bearing God's “cup of wrath” and being despised and forsaken by the Father and Him turning His back on the Son is not found in Scripture.

In Matthew 26:39, Jesus says, "If it be your will, let this cup pass from me." Jesus tells us precisely what the cup was. It was the cup of his suffering, which meant that He would die an agonizing death as a martyr. In the passage below, Jesus told His disciples that they would also drink of the same "cup":


Matthew 20:17-23
Now Jesus was going up to Jerusalem. On the way, he took the Twelve aside and said to them, 18 “We are going up to Jerusalem, and the Son of Man will be delivered over to the chief priests and the teachers of the law. They will condemn him to death 19 and will hand him over to the Gentiles to be mocked and flogged and crucified. On the third day he will be raised to life!”20 Then the mother of Zebedee’s sons came to Jesus with her sons and, kneeling down, asked a favor of him. 21 “What is it you want?” he asked. She said, "Grant that one of these two sons of mine may sit at your right and the other at your left in your kingdom."22 “You don’t know what you are asking,” Jesus said to them. “Can you drink the cup I am going to drink?” “We can,” they answered. 23 Jesus said to them, “You will indeed drink from my cup, but to sit at my right or left is not for me to grant. These places belong to those for whom they have been prepared by my Father.”


1 Thessalonians 5:9-For God did not appoint us to suffer wrath but to receive salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ.

As we see above it was not the cup of wrath Jesus was speaking about but it was the suffering He was going to have to endure for our sins. God has not appointed us to wrath and the cup means the suffering of Jesus and that the disciples would also suffer death as martyrs. In fact, many scriptures testify that believers too will suffer persecution for being a follower of Jesus. Suffering persecution is a promise for a believer who follows Jesus, it is something we should expect to happen in our life.


2 Timothy 3:12- Yes, and everyone who wants to live a godly life in Christ Jesus will suffer persecution.


John 15:20
Remember the word that I spoke to you: 'No servant is greater than his master.' If they persecuted Me, they will persecute you as well; if they kept My word, they will keep yours as well.


Matthew 5:10 - Blessed are those who are persecuted because of righteousness, for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.


2 Corinthians 4:9- persecuted, but not forsaken; struck down, but not destroyed.


Wrath from God is not required for the forgiveness of sins, that is a misnomer.


Exodus 34:6
Then the LORD passed by in front of him and proclaimed, “The LORD, the LORD God, compassionate and merciful, slow to anger, and abounding in faithfulness and truth;


Isaiah 48:9
For the sake of My name, I will delay My wrath; for the sake of My praise, I will restrain it, so that you will not be cut off.


Psalms 78:38
And yet He was compassionate; He forgave their iniquity and did not destroy them. He often restrained His anger and did not unleash His full wrath.


Psalms 85:1-3
You, Lord, showed favor to your land;
you restored the fortunes of Jacob.
2 You forgave the iniquity of your people
and covered all their sins.
3 You set aside all your wrath
and turned from your fierce anger.


The wrath of God (Isaiah 53)

Within the study of the doctrine on PSA ( Penal Substitution Theory of Atonement ), the central O.T. passage it comes from is found in Isaiah 53. Let us look at how the N.T. quotes Isaiah 53 and see how the N.T. writers viewed the passages and used them in the N.T. and what language from Isaiah 53 they applied to Jesus in the N.T. regarding suffering.

In doing so, a few things stand out. There is no penal aspect/ language Isaiah used that is carried over in the N.T. but that of substitution. Isaiah 53:4- WE (not God) considered Him punished by God. The following NT passages quote Isaiah 53: Matthew 8:14-17; Mark 15:27-32; John 12:37-41; Luke 22:35-38; Acts 8:26-35; Romans 10:11-21; and 1 Peter 2:19-25.

hope this helps !!!

 

[ChristisGod]

If you do a google search for this phrase my paper/thread will pop up on this topic as the first link. There are over 10,000 responses.

" Did Jesus bear Gods wrath and was He forsaken ? "

 

[Behold]

I've heard this silly idea preached by some in the pulpit, that The Father just totally abandoned Lord Jesus upon His cross, and even poured out His Wrath upon Lord Jesus by His going through the crucifixion! The reality is, that to teach such an idea shows gross Biblical illiteracy!
.

Its interesting that Jesus asked God to allow the Cross to pass from Him, because He knew that the Judgment for the World's Sin, that was going to be His Crucifixion, was so terrible in its knowledge that He was sweating blood trying to deal with it coming to Him, as well as trying to battle against his own human will.

You know none of this.., Davy.
Thats amazing, as here you are on a Christian forum, knowing nothing about the Cross of Christ or the Passion of Christ, or the "CUP" of God's Judgement that was about to be performed against Jesus on the Cross.

 

[Davy]

Its interesting that Jesus asked God to allow the Cross to pass from Him, because He knew that the Judgment for the World's Sin, that was going to be His Crucifixion, was so terrible in its knowledge that He was sweating blood trying to deal with it coming to Him, as well as trying to battle against his own human will.

You know none of this.., Davy.
Thats amazing, as here you are on a Christian forum, knowing nothing about the Cross of Christ or the Passion of Christ, or the "CUP" of God's Judgement that was about to be performed against Jesus on the Cross.

I don't buy your FALSE ACCUSATIONS for one minute.

All you are trying to do is apply your 'own' fleshy carnal thoughts into Lord Jesus's mind.

So NOW... you want to associate the cup of suffering that Jesus was to drink of with the cup He offered to His disciples at the last supper??? Ha! It's not me that has learning to do about the Passion of Christ.

 

[Behold]

I don't buy your FALSE ACCUSATIONS for one minute.
.

And real believers, do not believe a person who can't understand Why Christ hung on the Cross for the sin of the World.

You dont even begin to understand this fact about the Cross, and about Jesus on it.

 

[ChristisGod]

Its interesting that Jesus asked God to allow the Cross to pass from Him, because He knew that the Judgment for the World's Sin, that was going to be His Crucifixion, was so terrible in its knowledge that He was sweating blood trying to deal with it coming to Him, as well as trying to battle against his own human will.

You know none of this.., Davy.
Thats amazing, as here you are on a Christian forum, knowing nothing about the Cross of Christ or the Passion of Christ, or the "CUP" of God's Judgement that was about to be performed against Jesus on the Cross.

read my previous response because Jesus promised His disciples they would drink the same cup Jesus drank.

In Matthew 26:39, Jesus says, "If it be your will, let this cup pass from me." Jesus tells us precisely what the cup was. It was the cup of his suffering, which meant that He would die an agonizing death as a martyr. In the passage below, Jesus told His disciples that they would also drink of the same "cup":


Matthew 20:17-23
Now Jesus was going up to Jerusalem. On the way, he took the Twelve aside and said to them, 18 “We are going up to Jerusalem, and the Son of Man will be delivered over to the chief priests and the teachers of the law. They will condemn him to death 19 and will hand him over to the Gentiles to be mocked and flogged and crucified. On the third day he will be raised to life!”20 Then the mother of Zebedee’s sons came to Jesus with her sons and, kneeling down, asked a favor of him. 21 “What is it you want?” he asked. She said, "Grant that one of these two sons of mine may sit at your right and the other at your left in your kingdom."22 “You don’t know what you are asking,” Jesus said to them. “Can you drink the cup I am going to drink?” “We can,” they answered. 23 Jesus said to them, “You will indeed drink from my cup, but to sit at my right or left is not for me to grant. These places belong to those for whom they have been prepared by my Father.”

 

[Windmillcharge]

Jesus' relationship with the Father on the cross was still there and not broken.

I have not said that his relationship was broken, but in bearing our sin his relationship changed.
Why else did he cry out about being ' foresaken'
Jesus's torment in the garden was not wholy about the physical pain he would endure, but also abut the spiritual pain as a sinless being he became sin.