Good Friday/Passover why different days?

[prism]

In the following quotes from Dipose's book "The Origins and Effects of Replacement Theology", he seems to reveal the basic reason why Good Friday does not end up on Passover each year. The usual explanation is that the Gregorian calendar runs different than the Jewish lunar calendar but this does not answer why not keep Good Friday connected day-wise with Passover. This tidbit from Diprose is new to me and revealing. Seeds of antisemitism from the Church Fathers?
.................
In AD325, Constantine wrote a letter to those bishops who had not been present at the Council of Nicea concerning the date of Easter. 110The following consideration contained in this letter, “We ought not, therefore, to have anything in common with the Jews,” sums up one of the key ideas behind much subsequent legislation against the Jews. All things Jewish were understood to be totally incompatible with Christianity.p.93

The following samples of canon law show that the Church was not prepared to recognize the fact that Judaism and Christianity have much in common. According to Canon I of the Synod of Antioch (341), whoever observes Easter at the same time as the Jews makes himself “an alien from the Church, as one who not only heaps sins upon himself, but who is also the cause of destruction and subversion of many.” p.94

Diprose, Ronald E. (2012-01-23). Israel and the Church: The Origins and Effects of Replacement Theology (p. 94). InterVarsity Press. Kindle Edition.

 

[veteran]

You're confused. Judaism has nothing... in common with the origins of Christianity. It's because Judaism is the direct descendent of the doctrines of the Pharisees, a new religion after the Babylon captivity in Jerusalem.

What the tenets of Judaism does, is take pieces from God's Word and mixes it with their own religious philosophy, and then falsely claim that was what God gave Israel through Moses all along.

It you want to claim Christianity has a link to God's Old Testament promises and covenants through Moses, then that's proper, and true. But not from Judaism, which their most holy book is their Babylonian Talmud, not God's Word!

Thus the term 'Judeo-Christian' is an oxymoron term. It contradicts itself. The Gospel of Jesus Christ existed prior to the New Testament era, and prior to the giving of the law, for The Gospel is specifically the promise by Faith which God first accounted to our spiritual father Abraham in Genesis (see Galatians 3).


As for the Passover, it has nothing to do with the Easter pagan tradition inherited from pagan converts to Christianity. Christ was crucified on a Wednesday on Passover, and buried before sundown,(per John 19). He was raised sometime on Sunday morning. It's to be reckoned per the Hebrew timing of a day beginning at sundown, not the Gregorian timing of a day.

 

[prism]

Who mentioned 'Judaism'? especially rabbinic. Was not the Messiah crucified on the Passover?

 

[Webers_Home]

.

Christ was crucified on a Wednesday on Passover, and buried before sundown

That won't work. There's four nights between Wednesday afternoon and Sunday morning.
The Lord predicted he would be deceased only three. (Mtt 12:40)

It's to be reckoned per the Hebrew timing of a day beginning at sundown.

When calculating the chronology of the Lord's death, burial, and resurrection; it's best to
do so with God's own personal definitions of Day and Night.

†. Gen 1:3-5 . . And God said: Let there be light-- and there was light. God saw that the
light was good, and He separated the light from the darkness. God called the light Day
and the darkness He called Night.

†. Gen 1:14-16 . . And God said: Let there be lights in the expanse of the sky to separate
the day from the night. God made two great lights: the greater light to govern the Day and
the lesser light to govern the Night.

According to God's own personal definitions: Day is daytime and Night is nighttime; viz:
Day is when the sun is up, and Night is when the sun is down; and in Jesus' day, they
were never more than twelve hours each. (John 11:9)

Was not the Messiah crucified on the Passover?

Yes and No.

When a careful comparison is made between the so-called synoptic gospels
and John's; it's readily apparent that Jesus consumed his own Passover
seder a full day ahead of the Jews' Passover seder. Jesus was a prophet in
close contact with God; so then he knew the correct date; which means the
Jews' religious calendar was off that year. But that worked to his advantage
because had the Jews known the correct date, they wouldn't have crucified
the Lord when God wanted.

†. Mrk 14:1-2 . . After two days was the feast of the Passover, and of
Unleavened Bread: and the chief priests and the scribes sought how they
might take him by craft, and put him to death. But they said: Not on the
feast day, lest there be an uproar of the people.

Buen Camino
/

 

[tim_from_pa]

There's a lot of thoughts and comments mixed in with this thread, but I'll add mine as to why I see Good Friday and Passover being on different days. The answer is simply a different calendar was used, and the times were changed. Whether one wants to believe that Christianity wanted to separate from Judism or not (whether Judaism had it right or not), I must admit the Jews had the biblical calendar which the feasts of the Lord (shadows of things to come) were fulfilled. At least they had it right at one time, I should say. Now they use a calculated calendar which is understandable due to the Diaspora to keep them "on the same page", but now that they are back in Israel should go by lunar sightings again.

As is much of Christianity, likewise Judaism mixes some bible with traditions of men (Jesus himself confirmed that) making it a strange mixture of things appearing biblical but in fact are not.

As for the day of the week Jesus died, Jesus died on Passover late on the 14th day of Nisan as the lambs were being slaughtered. He said he'd be in the tomb 3 days and 3 nights. That time started at sundown as the Sabbath of Unleavened Bread approached (the 15th of Nisan). He was in the tomb night and day for the 15th, the 16th and 17th (the Sabbath) and as Sabbath was closing, he arose to fulfill the feast of Firstfruits always occuring on the "morrow after the Sabbath" according to Leviticus. That's actually Saturday late by our reckoning. Since he was in the tomb 3 days and 3 nights, that's 3 full calendar days. Three days from the 15th brings us to the 18th of Nisan, which we know is a Sunday. Working backwards we can then see the 14th fell on a Wednesday. Pretty straightforward mathematics.

However, we should not be concerned with celebrating his death on a certain day of the week. That was needed only for the year he died to fulfill the sign of Janah. Rather, the Lord's death should be celebrated whatever day Passover falls on any given year.

As for Friday in the Christian calendar, that is a subject in and of itself where we can go into long discourses on the origin of that pagan holiday (as is Christmas). And for sure, we can't fit 3 days and 3 nights into Friday sundown to (at most) pre-dawn Sunday morning any more than I can fit 10 pounds of fudge in a 5 pound bag. Even little children are wise enough to see that much and constantly ask "How do you get 3 days and 3 nights from Friday until Sunday?"

 

[Webers_Home]

.

3 full calendar days.

Christ predicted his resurrection would occur on the third day; not on a
fourth day after three days were fully over and done with.

†. Mrk 9:31 . .The Son of man is delivered into the hands of men, and they
shall kill him; and after that he is killed, he shall rise the third day.

†. Luke 18:33 . . And they shall scourge him, and put him to death: and the
third day he shall rise again.

†. Luke 24:6-7 . . He is not here; he has risen! Remember how he told you,
while he was still with you in Galilee: The Son of Man must be delivered into
the hands of sinful men, be crucified and on the third day be raised again.

†. Luke 24:46 . .Thus it is written, and thus it behooved Christ to suffer, and
to rise from the dead the third day

Witnesses saw him alive on the third day.

†. Luke 24:21-23 . . Today is the third day since these things were done. In
addition, some of our women amazed us. They went to the tomb early this
morning but didn't find his body. They came and told us that they had seen
a vision of angels, who said he was alive.

and as Sabbath was closing, he arose to fulfill the feast of Firstfruits always
occuring on the "morrow after the Sabbath" according to Leviticus. That's
actually Saturday late by our reckoning.

The "morrow after the sabbath" indicates daytime; not nighttime. According
to Mark 16:9, the Lord rose on the first day of the week; not on the seventh
night of the week.

Working backwards we can then see the 14th fell on a Wednesday.

There's four nights between Wednesday afternoon and Sunday morning. The
Lord predicted he would be deceased only three. (Mtt 12:40)

Buen Camino
/

 

[tim_from_pa]

Christ predicted his resurrection would occur on the third day; not on a
fourth day after three days were fully over and done with.

Actually, the KJV just says "the third day" and there's nowhere in my bible that says "on the third day". The third day have equivalent phrases explained elsewhere such as "after three days", "three days and three nights" and "within three days" all indicating a 72 hour period of full 3 calendar days. It's these newer translations that seem to say "on the third day". But IMO Matthew 12:40 is the clearest and most precise, and coming from the Lord's mouth himself is the standard to date this.

I'm not sure where you are getting that with a Wednesday crucifixion there is a 4th night.

He was interred 14th-15th (border of the two days at sunset) The feast is actually the 15th so we know which day God chose to commemorate and prophesy his burial. Now, add 3 days 14th/15th + 3 days = 17th/18th, i.e as Sabbath ended and Sunday Firstfruits commenced (his resurrection at the end of Saturday). It's impossible for 3 calendar days to have 4 nights in them. If there is such a date, let me know as I could get an extra night's sleep. :lol:

 

[Webers_Home]

.

I'm not sure where you are getting that with a Wednesday crucifixion there
is a 4th night.

Wednesday night, Thursday night, Friday night, and Saturday night.

Buen Camino
/

 

[tim_from_pa]

.


Wednesday night, Thursday night, Friday night, and Saturday night.

Buen Camino
/

I'm sorry but I still don't follow. If he died Wednesday afternoon, and interred at sundown, that makes the first night Thursday night, then Friday night and Saturday night. Then after Saturday night Saturday daytime comes, and when that is over, he rises again--- he is then arisen for the start of the day Sunday (approx 6PM Saturday night Gregorian).

Here, this picture will explain what I mean as a picture speaks a thousand words:

 

[Webers_Home]

.

If he died Wednesday afternoon, and interred at sundown, that makes the
first night Thursday night

Even with your backwards scheme, there are too many nights; viz: Thu
night, Fri night, Sat night, and Sun night.

he is then arisen for the start of the day Sunday (approx 6PM Saturday night
Gregorian).

According to your backwards scheme, Saturday night is Sunday night.
However; according to Mrk 16:9 the Lord rose early on the first day of the
week; not on the first night of the week.

When calculating the chronology of the Lord's death, burial, and
resurrection; it's best to do so with God's own personal definitions of Day
and Night.

†. Gen 1:3-5 . . And God said: Let there be light-- and there was light. God
saw that the light was good, and He separated the light from the darkness.
God called the light Day and the darkness He called Night.

†. Gen 1:14-16 . . And God said: Let there be lights in the expanse of the
sky to separate the day from the night. God made two great lights: the
greater light to govern the Day and the lesser light to govern the Night.

According to God's own personal definitions: Day is daytime and Night is
nighttime; viz: Day is when the sun is up, and Night is when the sun is
down; which is precisely why a Wednesday afternoon burial simply doesn't
work.

Buen Camino
/

 

[tim_from_pa]

Even with your backwards scheme, there are too many nights; viz: Thu
night, Fri night, Sat night, and Sun night.

First you said my "scheme" would not work earlier because it was Wednesday, Thursday, Friday and Saturday nights (4 nights).

Now you say my sheme has Thursday, Friday, Saturday and Sunday nights. My timeline in the chart did not change. My stance did not change. Which is it now? Stay consistent. What calendar are you even using? Maybe that's why I don't know what you are trying to say and am confused about your position as I believe that chart I posted is simple and quite understandable.

Since you apparently believe he died on a Thursday, I can sort of see where those folks are coming from if reckoning the 3 days from the time of his death (before burial). It becomes workable IMO only if he arises LATER by Sunday dawn. But that still would not be a full 3 days and 3 nights, but just part of each. However, you have to understand I am advocating the 3 days and 3 nights in the tomb, as the chart clearly shows. In that case I believe it's straightforward. It's all right there; I'm not sure what the so-called error is.

Back to the Hebrew feast days. Christ was crucified late on the 14th of Nisan to fulfill Passover. Interred at the start of Unleavened Bread (the 15th), and arose 3 days later which starts Nisan 18 (Firstfruits on Sunday). There is a ceremony involving the wave sheaf where the question is asked if the sun went down yet (at the end of the weekly Sabbath Day). Once it went down, the priest cut it and prepared it for the ceremony later that day (Sunday). The cutting prophesied the resurrection of Christ. This would have been about sundown Saturday night which at that time of year is about 6PM.

 

[Webers_Home]

Back to the Hebrew feast days.

Einstein once defined insanity as doing the same thing over and over again
and expecting a different result.

Christ was crucified late on the 14th of Nisan to fulfill Passover.

You seem unaware that Jesus ate his own Passover seder a full twenty-four
hours ahead of the Jews; which tells me that Jesus was actually crucified
on the fifteenth. Exactly why the Jews' own seder was running late that year
I don't know; but it isn't unusual for them to be somewhat flexible with their feast days.

Buen Camino
/

 

[us2are1]

Why care? Christ was the Passover Lamb and now we are His. Every day is Passover with the Word of God written on the door posts of our hearts.

 

[tim_from_pa]

Einstein once defined insanity as doing the same thing over and over again
and expecting a different result.

With the feast days? God put them there for prophetic reasons to be fulfilled in Christ.
As much as I admire Einstein, I don't consult his witty remarks to guide my spirituality, but rather the bible is the basis for what I believe.

You seem unaware that Jesus ate his own Passover seder a full twenty-four
hours ahead of the Jews; which tells me that Jesus was actually crucified
on the fifteenth. Exactly why the Jews' own seder was running late that year
I don't know; but it isn't unusual for them to be somewhat flexible with their feast days.

Buen Camino
/

No, I'm not unaware of that. I dealt with that issue long ago as a preparation for the Passover meal occurring on early Nisan 14. But that's not the subject here. The subject is that I place a clear chart for the world to see, and somehow you are telling me that's 4 nights (and not the same ones at that) and then turning around and calling the feasts insanity with an Einstein quote.

Look, I have no problem if you want to believe he was crucified on Thurday as you said, but from what I see you have to count from the time of his death and even at that only include only partial days and nights to make that 3 days and 3 nights (probably closer to about 60 hours in the tomb). But then understand as well from the context of Matthew 12:40 if he meant the grave, then the chart above clearly shows it's 3 full days and 3 full nights, and perfectly fulfills the feasts. I see no other way it can be done. If you have a chart to explain your time frame, I'd like to see it posted so that I understand your perspective.

 

[Webers_Home]

.

If you have a chart to explain your time frame

Forget about charts, forget about feasts, and forget about Nisan. Just work
with a normal seven-day week and you'll get it.

First off: it's essential to begin with the premise that Jesus rose from the
dead "on" the third day; not after the third day was over and done with. This
isn't optional; it's critical and it's scriptural.

†. Mrk 9:31 . .The Son of man is delivered into the hands of men, and they
shall kill him; and after that he is killed, he shall rise the third day.

†. Luke 18:33 . . And they shall scourge him, and put him to death: and the
third day he shall rise again.

†. Luke 24:6-7 . . He is not here; he has risen! Remember how he told you,
while he was still with you in Galilee: The Son of Man must be delivered into
the hands of sinful men, be crucified and on the third day be raised again.

†. Luke 24:46 . .Thus it is written, and thus it behooved Christ to suffer, and
to rise from the dead the third day

Witnesses saw him alive on the third day; not on a fourth day after the third
was over and done with.

†. Luke 24:21-23 . . Today is the third day since these things were done. In
addition, some of our women amazed us. They went to the tomb early this
morning but didn't find his body. They came and told us that they had seen
a vision of angels, who said he was alive.

Next, it's essential to work with normal days and nights as per Gen 1:3-5 and
Gen 1:14-16; viz: day is when the sun is up, and night is when the sun is down.

Then; if you let Sunday be the first day of the week; and work backwards:
the three days are Sunday, Saturday, and Friday. The three nights are
Saturday night, Friday night, and Thursday night. Piece of cake; and so
simple a third-grader could do it in their head without even using pencil and
paper; let alone charts and calendars.

You know what your primary flaw is? It's disbelief. Yes; you refuse to accept
that the Lord rose on the third day in spite of the abundance of scripture
testifying that's the way it happened; even eye-witness testimony no less.
Your kind of unbelief is inexcusable because it isn't due to a lack of
information; no; it's informed, it's willful, it's obtuse, and it's stubborn.

You'll not hear from me on this matter again. I may not agree with Einstein's
theory of relativity; but I do agree with his definition of insanity.

Buen Camino
/

 

[tim_from_pa]

You know what your primary flaw is? It's disbelief.

Good, glad we solved that. You see, I said I have respect for a Thursday belief like you have, and I sort of can see where you're coming from especially since you take the stance "on the third day". Let's see. Thursday late afternoon make about 3 hours, not a full day, but hey, it's part of a day. Then Friday night, Friday day, then Saturday night then comes Saturday day, and then Sunday night --- again not a full night, but close enough assumed he arose predawn since the women got there when it was still dark. I guess your scheme comes out to something like 62 hours give or take a little.

At least I give you more open-minded credit than you are giving for my view, despite the charts, valid mathematical explainations, prophetic feasts all which you have disbelief and was all greeted with avoidance and strawman arguments.

Well you are welcome to a belief about my primary flaw, and mine about you is that you're pig-headed, without regarding the evidence I presented as as seen objectively by anyone looking at it.\

Oh, and one other thing about the "4th day" --- I can see you and perhaps many others would claim that if I had one fence post for every yard of straight fence, would argue that I "must" have 4 yards and not 3 that I claim just because I have 4 posts. :lol:

 

[veteran]

.


That won't work. There's four nights between Wednesday afternoon and Sunday morning.
The Lord predicted he would be deceased only three. (Mtt 12:40)




When calculating the chronology of the Lord's death, burial, and resurrection; it's best to
do so with God's own personal definitions of Day and Night.

†. Gen 1:3-5 . . And God said: Let there be light-- and there was light. God saw that the
light was good, and He separated the light from the darkness. God called the light Day
and the darkness He called Night.

†. Gen 1:14-16 . . And God said: Let there be lights in the expanse of the sky to separate
the day from the night. God made two great lights: the greater light to govern the Day and
the lesser light to govern the Night.

According to God's own personal definitions: Day is daytime and Night is nighttime; viz:
Day is when the sun is up, and Night is when the sun is down; and in Jesus' day, they
were never more than twelve hours each. (John 11:9)




Yes and No.

When a careful comparison is made between the so-called synoptic gospels
and John's; it's readily apparent that Jesus consumed his own Passover
seder a full day ahead of the Jews' Passover seder. Jesus was a prophet in
close contact with God; so then he knew the correct date; which means the
Jews' religious calendar was off that year. But that worked to his advantage
because had the Jews known the correct date, they wouldn't have crucified
the Lord when God wanted.

†. Mrk 14:1-2 . . After two days was the feast of the Passover, and of
Unleavened Bread: and the chief priests and the scribes sought how they
might take him by craft, and put him to death. But they said: Not on the
feast day, lest there be an uproar of the people.

Buen Camino
/

Tim is correct (except I don't agree with his chart's allusions to Dan.9:27 having anything to do with Christ's crucifixion).

The problem is that Christian tradition has tried to use the Gregorian calendar for timing of the three days and three nights. Not proper to do that, since the Passover timing was an Israelite feast commanded by God, and involved following the Hebrew reckoning for the start and end of a day and night.

Per the Hebrew reckoning, a new day begins at sunset. Per John 19, Christ was crucified just prior to sunset, which is why they rushed to bury His body, because starting at sunset began the next day, which was to be a high sabbath per the OT reckoning for the Passover. So that week had 2 sabbaths, the high day of the passover reckoning as one sabbath (starting Wendsday evening), and then the regular weekly sabbath begining on Saturday at sunset.

1st night = which at sunset began to be Thursday and continued until dawn.
1st day = dawn and throughout the day until the next sunset, which began Friday.
2nd night = Friday night until dawn
2nd day = Friday at dawn until the next sunset which began Saturday
3rd night = Saturday night until dawn
3rd day = Saturday at dawn to the next sunset which began Sunday (first day of the week)

Our Lord was raised sometime between that last sunset and dawn on Sunday.

 

[us2are1]

Why care? Christ was the Passover Lamb and now we are His. Every day is Passover with the Word of God written on the door posts of our hearts.

Your Heart is everything you are founded on. Hopefully all truth.

 

[veteran]

Made a mistake in my previous post. The regular weekly sabbath began on Friday at sunset and went until Saturday at sunset.

 

[tim_from_pa]

Tim is correct (except I don't agree with his chart's allusions to Dan.9:27 having anything to do with Christ's crucifixion).

Yeah, I agree with you here. We don't need Daniel 9:27 to prove the Wednesday crucifixion. But ya know, charts are hard to come by these days! That's one of the best I could find. :lol:

I try to be open-minded and understanding of the other's point of view. However, it's with these considerations:

1) I won't even begin to debate a Friday crucifixion. That's so obviously ludicrous trying to fit 3 days and 3 nights into that time span that as I already said, even a child knows to ask that much. It's not that I'm close-minded on that per se, but it's that no matter how hard you try, 1 + 1/2 does not equal 3 (or something like that). There's a limit to being open.

2) I can somewhat understand a Thursday one, but then you have to count the "3 days and 3 nights" from the time of his death (c.f. Matt 12:40) and not the grave. Plus, one has to take a stance that he has to raise "on the 3rd day". However, what makes me a little uncomfortable with this is that if he arises "on the third day" that means the days in the tomb (or even dead) is somewhat less than the 3 days and 3 nights very precisely mentioned in Matthew 12:40. Of course this view holds that Jesus did not rise at Sabbath sundown but rather Sunday in the night before dawn to "stretch out" the hours and days somewhat.

The reason why I brought up the feast days, is because I have great belief and faith. They were shadows of things to come, and Christ fulfilled them at their proper times; His death was when the Passover Lambs were being slaughtered, his burial at the feast of Unleavened Bread (starts at sundown), and the resurrection at sundown sabbath as Sunday started to fulfill Firstfruits. As a matter of fact, there is a ceremony that the question was asked "Did the sun set yet?" to which the answer was if it did, the priest could cut (harvest) the sheaf to later be prepared for the wave offering. That cutting represented the resurrection. So, by logic (and prophecy), if that was cut at sundown, and he was buried at sundown and 3 days and 3 nights transpired, then that would be from the 15th until the 18th of Nisan.

Of course there are those that then protest, well he then arose the 4th day! no, not really. Let's take a simple, precise and factual example.

Suppose I said this was my last day of work on July 14th? (Analoguous to his death)
Then I take off the 15th, 16th and 17th (in the grave- 3 days and 3 nights)
And I return the 18th? The 18th is the 4th day protests some folks.
So, that means I took off 4 days? :lol:

Q.E.D.

But you are a friend, Veteran and I'm telling this to the choir, I know. I just wanted to lay out my logic and scriptural deductions for all to see if any are curious.