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Gospel In The Old Testament?

Discussion in 'Christian Debate Forum' started by veteran, Aug 11, 2010.

  1. veteran

    veteran New Member

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    Why would Apostle Paul preach that all those of Faith on Christ have become the children of Abraham? What relation did Abraham have with The Gospel of Jesus Christ, and where was this first given?
     
  2. brionne

    brionne Active Member

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    The uncircumcised Abraham was specially chosen by God to be the father of the Messiah because he had faith in God.
    Genesis 22:16-18 God says to Abraham:
    ‘by reason of the fact that you have done this thing and you have not withheld your son, your only one, 17 I shall surely bless you and I shall surely multiply your seed like the stars of the heavens and like the grains of sand that are on the seashore; and your seed will take possession of the gate of his enemies. 18 And by means of your seed all nations of the earth will certainly bless themselves due to the fact that you have listened to my voice."

    Its important to understand that Abrahams offspring is NOT only Isrealites/Jews. And this is what a lot of people get confused with. Abrahams 'seed' is actually the Messiah. Paul explained this at Galatians 3:16 Now the promises were spoken to Abraham and to his seed. It says, not: “And to seeds,” as in the case of many such, but as in the case of one: “And to your seed,” who is Christ"

    So that promise in Genesis is that the Messiah would be born through Abraham and all those who rested their faith on him would become blessed. Paul showed that Abraham was faithful before his circumcision and so it is with the uncircumsized gentiles, whoever had faith would also be called Abrahams seed because being circumsized in the flesh or following the mosaic law is not what produces a righteous standing before God...it is faith that does that as it did with Abraham.
    Romans 4:11-12 And he received a sign, namely, circumcision, as a seal of the righteousness by the faith he had while in his uncircumcised state, that he might be the father of all those having faith while in uncircumcision, in order for righteousness to be counted to them; 12 and a father of circumcised offspring, not only to those who adhere to circumcision, but also to those who walk orderly in the footsteps of that faith while in the uncircumcised state which our father Abraham had."

    Galatians 3:28-29
    "There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor freeman, there is neither male nor female; for YOU are all one [person] in union with Christ Jesus. 29 Moreover, if YOU belong to Christ, YOU are really Abraham’s seed, heirs with reference to a promise"

    Romans 4:13-17 13 For it was not through law that Abraham or his seed had the promise that he should be heir of a world, but it was through the righteousness by faith.

    And so it is with gentile believers....because of their faith they become viewed to be Abrahams children (not literally, but figuratively) because of having faith like Abraham.

     
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  3. veteran

    veteran New Member

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    Not bad! Good job.

    Would you say that reveals The Gospel of Jesus Christ was first given through Abraham?

    How would you interpret what our Lord Jesus said at the end of John 8 that Abraham saw His day, and was glad?
     
  4. brionne

    brionne Active Member

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    If you consider the Gospel of Jesus to be the proclamation that the 'Kingdom of Heaven is at hand', then yes...that is the gospel in which Abraham showed faith. Of Abraham, Paul said at Hebrews 11:8 "By faith Abraham, when he was called, obeyed in going out into a place he was destined to receive as an inheritance; and he went out, although not knowing where he was going. 9 By faith he resided as an alien in the land of the promise as in a foreign land, and dwelt in tents with Isaac and Jacob, the heirs with him of the very same promise. 10 For he was awaiting the city having real foundations, the builder and maker of which [city] is God"

    Paul here was referring to the holy city of God....it is also mentioned by John in Revelation 21:2 "I saw also the holy city, New Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God and prepared as a bride adorned for her husband."

    The bride is the heavenly kingdom, the husband of which kingdom is God.


    John 8:56 says: Abraham YOUR father rejoiced greatly in the prospect of seeing my day, and he saw it and rejoiced"

    Obviously Abraham didnt literally see Jesus day because he died long before. What Jesus is getting at here is that Abraham had faith that the Messiah would appear and do all that he was destined to do. Faith enabled Abraham to see the Messiah unlike the people of Jesus day who lacked faith and therefore could not see Jesus for who he was.

    There are corresponding passages that shed a bit more light on Jesus words.

    Matthew 13:16-18 “However, happy are YOUR eyes because they behold, and YOUR ears because they hear. 17 For I truly say to YOU, Many prophets and righteous men desired to see the things YOU are beholding and did not see them, and to hear the things YOU are hearing and did not hear them

    Hebrews 11:13 "In faith all these died, although they did not get the [fulfillment of the] promises, but they saw them afar off and welcomed them and publicly declared that they were strangers and temporary residents in the land

    1 Peter 1:10-12

    10 Concerning this very salvation a diligent inquiry and a careful search were made by the prophets who prophesied about the undeserved kindness meant for YOU. 11 They kept on investigating what particular season or what sort of [season] the spirit in them was indicating concerning Christ when it was bearing witness beforehand about the sufferings for Christ and about the glories to follow these. 12 It was revealed to them that, not to themselves, but to YOU, they were ministering the things that have now been announced to YOU through those who have declared the good news to YOU with holy spirit sent forth from heaven. Into these very things angels are desiring to peer"


    Abraham received a verbal confirmation from God that the Messiah, his seed, would appear and through him all the nations would be blessed. Abraham believed that with all his heart and because of his strong faith he 'saw' it. Thats why so much emphasis is placed on faith by God. He wants us to believe that he is truthful with regard to all that he purposes and promises...when we show that we believe him and live by that faith the way Abraham did, then that makes him very happy.


     
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  5. veteran

    veteran New Member

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    Do you believe Melchizedek was our Lord Jesus in the OT that met Abraham and offered him bread and wine?
     
  6. RichardBurger

    RichardBurger New Member

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    \Romans 9:7-9
    7 nor are they all children because they are the seed of Abraham; but, "In Isaac your seed shall be called."
    8 That is, those who are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God; but the children of the promise are counted as the seed.
    9 For this is the word of promise: "At this time I will come and Sarah shall have a son."
    NKJV

    Abraham believed God's promises. We, today, are children of Abraham solely because we believe God's promise of salvation in the work of Jesus on the cross.

    It was a "foreseeing, foreshadowing" of what was to come. The words "foreseeing," "beforehand" and "would" are mostly never seen by many.

    Galatians 3:6-9
    6 just as Abraham "believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness."
    7 Therefore know that only those who are of faith are sons of Abraham.
    8 And the Scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, preached the gospel to Abraham beforehand, saying, "In you all the nations shall be blessed."
    9 So then those who are of faith are blessed with believing Abraham.
    NKJV

    The thought, as you said it, is that salvation by simple belief (faith) was in effect at that time and that is wrong. It was not "given" at that time. It was to be given in the future.
     
  7. brionne

    brionne Active Member

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    I cant say if he was Jesus in the flesh or not, but there is no indication in the OT that Melchizedek was Jesus in the flesh. However, Jesus is said to come in the 'manner of Melchizedek' because Melchizedek was appointed by God to be both priest and King of Salem. He is the only King Priest in the OT just as Jesus has been instituted as a King Priest in heaven.

    When Paul explained Jesus’ status as the great High Priest, he said that a man does not take the honor “of his own accord, but only when he is called by God, just as Aaron also was.” He explained at Heb 5:1, 4-6 that “the Christ did not glorify himself by becoming a high priest, but was glorified by him who spoke with reference to him: ‘You are my son; I, today, I have become your father,’”
    He then went on to apply the prophecy of Psalm 110:4 to Jesus...it says: “...You are a priest to time indefinite
    According to the manner of Mel‧chiz′e‧dek!”

    To understand the significance of what this means, we look to Pauls words again which clearly indicate that because perfection was unattainable through the Levitical priesthood, the appearance of a priest “according to the manner of Melchizedek” would be needed. What was special about Melchizedek was that he was “fatherless, motherless, without genealogy, having neither a beginning of days nor an end of life, but having been made like the Son of God, he remains a priest perpetually.” Heb 7:3 because the scriptures do not disclose those details about him so we will never really know who he was.

    In a similar way, the priesthood conferred on Jesus was ordained by God after he had received eternal life in heaven hence Paul could say “because of continuing alive forever has his priesthood without any successors” and, therefore, is able “to save completely those who are approaching God through him, because he is always alive to plead for them.” Heb 7:11-25.


    So with regard to your question, personally i think that if Melchizedek was the physical Jesus, Paul likely would have been able to make that known considering he was writing by holy spirit but he does not reveal anything about who Melchizadek was....and if you think that Jesus was made known to be 'the word' of God and to have existed before Abraham lived by the Apostles, then surely something that significant would also have been made known. But my guess is that Melchizedek prefigured Jesus and God made him both king and priest in order to explain a little more about the role of the Messiah. Many other things in the OT prefigured the messiah and the church and the kingdom....Paul called some of them prophetic patterns.



     
  8. RichardBurger

    RichardBurger New Member

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    A very good reply Pegg.
     
  9. gregg

    gregg New Member

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    my opinion THE HOLY SPIRIT, why, jesus for one was the prince of peace- he- was king of salem(peace) jesus was of the holy ghost when he was in mary. that is one reason. the others you already read. :rolleyes:
     
  10. veteran

    veteran New Member

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    I know some may disagree, but I interpret Apostle Paul in Hebrews 7 declaring that Melchizedek was our Lord Who met Abraham. Recall also Gen.18 when The Lord appeared to Abraham at his tent door, along with two angels that went to gather Lot's people afterwards. I do not believe our Lord Jesus is an angel either, though I do believe the "angel of the LORD" phrase in many cases points to Christ's direct presence and appearance on earth in the Old Testament. Clearly then, I truly do believe in a Godhead of Three Persons, having always existed, with Christ Jesus being the "express image of His Person", like Hebrews also says.


    Heb 7:1-16
    1 For this Melchisedec, king of Salem, priest of the most high God, who met Abraham returning from the slaughter of the kings, and blessed him;
    2 To whom also Abraham gave a tenth part of all; first being by interpretation King of righteousness, and after that also King of Salem, which is, King of peace;
    3 Without father, without mother, without descent, having neither beginning of days, nor end of life; but made like unto the Son of God; abideth a priest continually.

    Some will simply infer the without father, without mother... phrase to mean only that no one knew of Melchizedek's genealogy. I interpret it to mean Melchizedek as an Office only belonging to Christ, since it means "King of Righteousness". The "abideth a priest continually" is in the everlasting sense, not temporal sense.

    4 Now consider how great this man was, unto whom even the patriarch Abraham gave the tenth of the spoils.
    5 And verily they that are of the sons of Levi, who receive the office of the priesthood, have a commandment to take tithes of the people according to the law, that is, of their brethren, though they come out of the loins of Abraham:
    6 But he whose descent is not counted from them received tithes of Abraham, and blessed him that had the promises.
    7 And without all contradiction the less is blessed of the better.
    8 And here men that die receive tithes; but there he receiveth them, of whom it is witnessed that he liveth.
    9 And as I may so say, Levi also, who receiveth tithes, payed tithes in Abraham.
    10 For he was yet in the loins of his father, when Melchisedec met him.

    Melchizedek is being compared to the later sons of Levi that received tithes in the office of priest, yet Melchizedek received tithes of Abraham while the sons of Levi were still in Abraham's loins and not yet born. This phrase, "of whom it is witnessed that he liveth" is a pointer back to verse 3; it's also in the everlasting sense in comparison to men that die who receive tithes.


    11 If therefore perfection were by the Levitical priesthood, (for under it the people received the law,) what further need was there that another priest should rise after the order of Melchisedec, and not be called after the order of Aaron?
    12 For the priesthood being changed, there is made of necessity a change also of the law.

    The priesthood here that was changed was the Levitical priesthood, not the priesthood of Melchisedec. Instead, Another arose after the order of Melchisedec, our Lord Jesus Christ. Jesus, and He is our "High Priest" now (Heb.3:1). The priesthood of the order of Melchisedec is eternal; the Levitical priesthood was not.

    13 For he of whom these things are spoken pertaineth to another tribe, of which no man gave attendance at the altar.
    14 For it is evident that our Lord sprang out of Juda; of which tribe Moses spake nothing concerning priesthood.

    These 13-14 verses are pointing back to the subject covered from the start of this chapter, and directly to our Lord Jesus Christ. Our Lord Jesus is this "he of whom these things are spoken". For it is Christ That pertains to another tribe from which no man gave attendence at the altar, that tribe being of Judah, the tribe which our Lord Jesus was born through. Judah had no duty at the altar as priests.


    15 And it is yet far more evident: for that after the similitude of Melchisedec there ariseth another priest,
    16 Who is made, not after the law of a carnal commandment, but after the power of an endless life.
    17 For He testifieth, Thou art a priest for ever after the order of Melchisedec.
    (KJV)

    There's only one other occurance of this Greek word for "similtude" in Heb.4:15, used to compare how our Lord Jesus was born in the flesh as we, feeling our infirmnities, yet being without sin. Does this point to the priesthood of the order of Melchisedec ever ending? No. Again, our Lord Jesus as High Priest for ever after the order of Melchisedec is being compared to the temporal Levitical priesthood that came from the law of a carnal commandment. The priesthood of Melchisedec comes by the power of an endless life, again pointing back to the eternal idea of verse 3 and verse 8.

    This is why I have hard timing seeing the priesthood of Melchisedec being anything but eternal and everlasting. It's also why I have a hard time believing that some unknown flesh man in Old Testament times could represent that order of Melchisedec, since a flesh man in that office would make the priesthood order of Melchisedec comparable to the fleshy Levitical priesthood which was a carnal priesthood. I will always believe Melchisedec (King of Righteousness) was our Lord Christ before any covenant promise was given, even of old before Satan rebelled against God. Before either Old or New Covenants, Christ Jesus was.

    The traditions of men are sly, and some of them have long been teaching the idea that our Lord Jesus Christ didn't exist back in Old Testament times. There's an attempt to get us to dwell on a humanist idea that Christ only began when born through Mary's womb in the Person of Jesus of Nazareth. Gnosticism even teaches a lie that the idea of 'Christ' is a spiritual force with no entity, and that our Lord Jesus only tapped into Christ Consciousness to do what He did.
     
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