Grace-Haters are incapable of honestly admitting what the (P) in Calvinism really means.

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atpollard

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I decided to place this in the DEBATE forum because I have no expectations that @Curtis will engage in anything approaching a brotherly discussion on the Calvinist teaching from the Doctrines of Grace commonly called “Perseverance of the Saints”.

BEGIN FORMAL DEBATE:

It has been falsely claimed by my esteemed opponents that Perseverance of the Saints and O.S.A.S. (once saved always saved) are identical, that they spring from the non-biblical and false teachings of Calvinism and they both teach: “God saves us to be able to live the most selfish, self centered, and sinful life possible, with no repentance, and remain in Christ”.

I offer the simplest possible response, just one word sums it up.

Balderdash!

Rather than fight rumors and innuendos and false claims about what Calvinism teaches with endless, unheeded protestations about “straw men” (I was told Calvinists have to use that word in every discussion :) ), I will simply present an explanation from R.C. Sproul of Ligonier Ministries written by a Presbyterian Calvinist to explain to other Calvinists the meaning of Perseverance of the Saints. I then invite my opponent, @Curtis to respond in proper debate form and refute my belief (Perseverance of the Saints) as defined by Mr Sproul as “unbiblical” using scripture and logic to refute the actual claim rather than to attack the imaginary claims of some “invisible Calvinists” that teach whatever it is that @Curtis may have heard.


TULIP and Reformed Theology: Perseverance of the Saints
FROM R.C. Sproul Apr 22, 2017

Writing to the Philippians, Paul says, “He who has begun a good work in you will perfect it to the end” (Phil. 1:6). Therein is the promise of God that what He starts in our souls, He intends to finish. So the old axiom in Reformed theology about the perseverance of the saints is this: If you have it—that is, if you have genuine faith and are in a state of saving grace—you will never lose it. If you lose it, you never had it.

We know that many people make professions of faith, then turn away and repudiate or recant those professions. The Apostle John notes that there were those who left the company of the disciples, and he says of them, “Those who went out from us were never really with us” (1 John 2:19). Of course, they were with the disciples in terms of outward appearances before they departed. They had made an outward profession of faith, and Jesus makes it clear that it is possible for a person to do this even when he doesn’t possess what he’s professing. Jesus says, “This people honors Me with their lips, but their heart is far from Me” (Matt. 15:8). Jesus even warns at the end of the Sermon on the Mount that at the last day, many will come to Him, saying: “Lord, Lord, didn’t we do this in your name? Didn’t we do that in your name?” He will send them away, saying: “Depart from Me, you workers of iniquity. I never knew you” (Matthew 7:23). He will not say: “I knew you for a season and then you went sour and betrayed Me. No, you never were part of My invisible church.” The whole purpose of God’s election is to bring His people safely to heaven; therefore, what He starts He promises to finish. He not only initiates the Christian life, but the Holy Spirit is with us as the sanctifier, the convictor, and the helper to ensure our preservation.

I want to stress that this endurance in the faith does not rest on our strength. Even after we’re regenerated, we still lapse into sin, even serious sin. We say that it is possible for a Christian to experience a very serious fall, we talk about backsliding, we talk about moral lapses, and so on. I can’t think of any sin, other than blasphemy against the Holy Spirit, that a truly converted Christian is not capable of committing.

We look, for example, at the model of David in the Old Testament. David was surely a man after God’s own heart. He was certainly a regenerate man. He had the Spirit of God in Him. He had a profound and passionate love for the things of God. Yet this man not only committed adultery but also was involved in a conspiracy to have his lover’s husband killed in war—which was really conspiracy to murder. That’s serious business. Even though we see the serious level of repentance to which David was brought as a result of the words of the prophet Nathan to him, the point is that David fell, and he fell seriously.

The apostle Paul warns us against having a puffed-up view of our own spiritual strength. He says, “Therefore let anyone who thinks that he stands take heed lest he fall” (1 Cor. 10:12). We do fall into very serious activities. The Apostle Peter, even after being forewarned, rejected Christ, swearing that he never knew Him—a public betrayal of Jesus. He committed treason against His Lord. When he was being warned of this eventuality, Peter said it would never happen. Jesus said, “Simon, Simon, Satan would have you and sift you like wheat, but I have prayed for you, so that when you turn, strengthen the brothers” (Luke 22:31-32).Peter fell, but he returned. He was restored. His fall was for a season. That’s why we say that true Christians can have radical and serious falls but never total and final falls from grace.

I think this little catchphrase, perseverance of the saints, is dangerously misleading. It suggests that the perseverance is something that we do, perhaps in and of ourselves. I believe that saints do persevere in faith, and that those who have been effectually called by God and have been reborn by the power of the Holy Spirit endure to the end. However, they persevere not because they are so diligent in making use of the mercies of God. The only reason we can give why any of us continue on in the faith is because we have been preserved. So I prefer the term the preservation of the saints, because the process by which we are kept in a state of grace is something that is accomplished by God. My confidence in my preservation is not in my ability to persevere. My confidence rests in the power of Christ to sustain me with His grace and by the power of His intercession. He is going to bring us safely home.​

Two things should be immediately apparent to any honest person reading the explanation of Perseverance of the Saints, by Dr. Sproul (even if you completely disagree with him and me and the P of TULIP):
  1. To claim that it is “completely unbiblical” or that it is “found nowhere in the Bible”, as some have been known to say in the heat of discussions, it patently FALSE.
  2. “God saves us to be able to live the most selfish, self centered, and sinful life possible, with no repentance, and remain in Christ” is NOT what the Calvinist doctrine of Perseverance of the Saints teaches and both Dr Sproul and I adamantly reject even the notion that that is what we teach or believe.

I yield the “soapbox” to @Curtis to address how we (Calvinists like Sproul and I) have incorrectly understood (exegesis) the verses quoted above, or have read into them meanings that are not there (eisegesis). I also look forward to reading his scriptural proof that God does not preserve His blood-bought Saints from the moment they receive God’s gift until they arrive home to the reality of “eternal life” in Christ.

Arthur
 
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atpollard

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I gave you an example. Charles Stanley, carnal Christian sermon.
Beyond that, I don’t really care what you think.
Don’t forget to say strawman a few more times.
It’s so impressive.
@Curtis
You claimed Charles Stanley said something, but never quoted Stanley or offered a link to the source to allow us to check your claims. That is RUMOR not example.

HoWever, as you can see here, I have provided you with AN ENTIRE TOPIC for you to respond with something of substance that will not continue to drag other threads off topic.

Your silence when offered a chance to post on an ACTUAL TOPIC and unwillingness to respond when presented with an opportunity to have your case heard, leaves one to wonder about your true motives. Could you be intent on nothing more than sowing discord among the brothern? (Proverbs 6:16-19)
 

atpollard

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Perhaps @Curtis felt overwhelmed by R.C. Sproul. Here is an easier place to start:

Philippians 1:6 [NKJV]
being confident of this very thing, that He who has begun a good work in you will complete it until the day of Jesus Christ;
Could you please explain why this verse is not true?
  • In the case of those that you claim were saved one day, and damned the next, why was “He who began a good work” NOT able to “complete it”?

I await enlightenment from your “correct” understanding rather than my flawed understanding that this verse indicates that those God justifies, God is able to preserve through glorification.
 

Curtis

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@Curtis
You claimed Charles Stanley said something, but never quoted Stanley or offered a link to the source to allow us to check your claims. That is RUMOR not example.

HoWever, as you can see here, I have provided you with AN ENTIRE TOPIC for you to respond with something of substance that will not continue to drag other threads off topic.

Your silence when offered a chance to post on an ACTUAL TOPIC and unwillingness to respond when presented with an opportunity to have your case heard, leaves one to wonder about your true motives. Could you be intent on nothing more than sowing discord among the brothern? (Proverbs 6:16-19)

It’s not my job to document every fact I’ve ever heard, read, or seen for forty years, so I can prove everything demanded by people like you.
 

Curtis

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Perhaps @Curtis felt overwhelmed by R.C. Sproul. Here is an easier place to start:

Philippians 1:6 [NKJV]
being confident of this very thing, that He who has begun a good work in you will complete it until the day of Jesus Christ;
Could you please explain why this verse is not true?
  • In the case of those that you claim were saved one day, and damned the next, why was “He who began a good work” NOT able to “complete it”?

I await enlightenment from your “correct” understanding rather than my flawed understanding that this verse indicates that those God justifies, God is able to preserve through glorification.
That’s okay, just wait, since my refutation of Calvinism is soon to be an OP.

You’ll particularly like the Romans 9 refutation of the reformed reading of their twisted election doctrine into it.

But thanks for picking such a great example of how Calvinists inject their version of election doctrines into scripture.

Taken as an out of context proof text, their eisegesis into the text, is that Paul is referring to their calling and election unto salvation.

But first of all, that interpretation is contradictory to their own predestination dogma, because in their systematic theology, to save the elect, God regenerates them and they then immediately believe the gospel and are saved - which isn’t an ongoing process requiring starting to save the elect, and then needing to continue the process, until finally they are saved - since in their theology, if you believe the gospel, you’re already saved.

Secondly, it’s clear in context that the Philippians had from day one, partnered with Paul and supported him in the work of preaching the gospel, and Paul says that God will continue that good work He began through them in their support of Paul, until the work is completed.

The topic clearly is NOT their salvation at all, but their partnership in the gospel.

To whit:

Php 1:3 I thank my God in all my remembrance of you,

Php 1:4 always in every prayer of mine for you all making my prayer with joy,

Php 1:5 because of your partnership in the gospel from the first day until now.

Php 1:6 And I am sure of this, that he who began a good work in you will bring it to completion at the day of Jesus Christ.

Php 1:7 It is right for me to feel this way about you all, because I hold you in my heart, for you are all partakers with me of grace, both in my imprisonment and in the defense and confirmation of the gospel.


But this is indeed a first rate example of how Reformed doctrine imposes false hermeneutics into their proof texts.

EDIT: I just checked the Good News Bible, and that version is even easier to understand the meaning of that passage:

Php 1:3 I thank my God for you every time I think of you;

Php 1:4 and every time I pray for you all, I pray with joy

Php 1:5 because of the way in which you have helped me in the work of the gospel from the very first day until now.

Php 1:6 And so I am sure that God, who began this good work in you, will carry it on until it is finished on the Day of Christ Jesus.

Php 1:7 You are always in my heart! And so it is only right for me to feel as I do about you. For you have all shared with me in this privilege that God has given me, both now that I am in prison and also while I was free to defend the gospel and establish it firmly.
 
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Curtis

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@Curtis
You claimed Charles Stanley said something, but never quoted Stanley or offered a link to the source to allow us to check your claims. That is RUMOR not example.

HoWever, as you can see here, I have provided you with AN ENTIRE TOPIC for you to respond with something of substance that will not continue to drag other threads off topic.

Your silence when offered a chance to post on an ACTUAL TOPIC and unwillingness to respond when presented with an opportunity to have your case heard, leaves one to wonder about your true motives. Could you be intent on nothing more than sowing discord among the brothern? (Proverbs 6:16-19)

Here you go, documentation of Charles Stanley and his carnal Christian teaching.

I really don’t care about jumping through your hoops, but when I looked, it took five whole minutes to find this:

The Gospel According to Charles Stanley - Berean Publishers
 
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DPMartin

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Joh 10:25 Jesus answered them, I told you, and ye believed not: the works that I do in my Father's name, they bear witness of me.
Joh 10:26 But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you.
Joh 10:27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:
Joh 10:28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.
Joh 10:29 My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand.
Joh 10:30 I and my Father are one.

ego is all about self and those who think that anything they do themselves saves or preserves them is just ego. and freewill is a Greek philosophy not a Christian theology until the catholic church converted freewill to Christianity. if you credit your self for the successes of your salvation then you don't know the Lord God of Abraham Isaac and Jacob nor do you trust the same God to keep you.
 

Curtis

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I decided to place this in the DEBATE forum because I have no expectations that @Curtis will engage in anything approaching a brotherly discussion on the Calvinist teaching from the Doctrines of Grace commonly called “Perseverance of the Saints”.
You might want to brush up on what a brotherly discussion is.
 
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Curtis

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Joh 10:25 Jesus answered them, I told you, and ye believed not: the works that I do in my Father's name, they bear witness of me.
Joh 10:26 But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you.
Joh 10:27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:
Joh 10:28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.
Joh 10:29 My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand.
Joh 10:30 I and my Father are one.

ego is all about self and those who think that anything they do themselves saves or preserves them is just ego. and freewill is a Greek philosophy not a Christian theology until the catholic church converted freewill to Christianity. if you credit your self for the successes of your salvation then you don't know the Lord God of Abraham Isaac and Jacob nor do you trust the same God to keep you.
 

marks

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But first of all, that interpretation is contradictory to their own predestination dogma, because in their systematic theology, to save the elect, God regenerates them and they then immediately believe the gospel and are saved - which isn’t an ongoing process requiring starting to save the elect, and then needing to continue the process, until finally they are saved - since in their theology, if you believe the gospel, you’re already saved.

It depends on how you define the good word that Christ begins in us. The ongoing process is being conformed to the image of Christ.

Much love!
 

marks

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Joh 10:25 Jesus answered them, I told you, and ye believed not: the works that I do in my Father's name, they bear witness of me.
Joh 10:26 But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you.
Joh 10:27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:
Joh 10:28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.
Joh 10:29 My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand.
Joh 10:30 I and my Father are one.

ego is all about self and those who think that anything they do themselves saves or preserves them is just ego. and freewill is a Greek philosophy not a Christian theology until the catholic church converted freewill to Christianity. if you credit your self for the successes of your salvation then you don't know the Lord God of Abraham Isaac and Jacob nor do you trust the same God to keep you.
It's a Like with caveat . . . maybe they know God, but don't understand.

Much love!
 

atpollard

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Secondly, it’s clear in context that the Philippians had from day one, partnered with Paul and supported him in the work of preaching the gospel, and Paul says that God will continue that good work He began through them in their support of Paul, until the work is completed.

The topic clearly is NOT their salvation at all, but their partnership in the gospel.

To whit:

Php 1:3 I thank my God in all my remembrance of you,

Php 1:4 always in every prayer of mine for you all making my prayer with joy,

Php 1:5 because of your partnership in the gospel from the first day until now.

Php 1:6 And I am sure of this, that he who began a good work in you will bring it to completion at the day of Jesus Christ.

Php 1:7 It is right for me to feel this way about you all, because I hold you in my heart, for you are all partakers with me of grace, both in my imprisonment and in the defense and confirmation of the gospel.


But this is indeed a first rate example of how Reformed doctrine imposes false hermeneutics into their proof texts.
Excellent ... you have stopped telling me what Reformed believe (and getting it wrong) and actually addressed Scripture for a change. I am EXCITED!


"it’s clear in context that the Philippians had from day one, partnered with Paul and supported him in the work of preaching the gospel,"
  • I completely agree. This is indeed the context in which Paul writes to the Corinthian Christians.

"and Paul says that God will continue that good work He began through them in their support of Paul, until the work is completed. The topic clearly is NOT their salvation at all, but their partnership in the gospel."
  • Sorry, but I really just do not see that in the words that Paul writes.
  • "And I am sure of this, that he who began a good work in you will bring it to completion at the day of Jesus Christ."
  • "And [Paul] am sure of this, that [God] who began a good work in [the Corinthian Christians] will bring [that good work] to completion at the day of Jesus Christ."
    • God began the work, so God will bring it to completion.
    • The good work was begun IN (inside) YOU (people - the Christians), so the work will be completed IN/INSIDE those same Christians where it began.
  • Nothing indicates that ANY of this is about preaching the Gospel.
  • It is ALL about GOD working in people ... that IS Salvation.

In verse 6, who are "I", "he" and "you"? ... How can that point to the Gospel as the good work to be completed?
 

atpollard

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Php 1:6 And so I am sure that God, who began this good work in you, will carry it on until it is finished on the Day of Christ Jesus.
GOD BEGAN THE WORK.
GOD WILL FINISH THE WORK.

What is this work that God began in you?
  • If you answer "salvation", then welcome to Calvinism.
  • If you object that you began your salvation and you will finish it ... then welcome to (Semi-)Pelagianism.
  • If you hedge and haw somewhere in the middle ... welcome to lukewarm theology ("My spirit tells me to pick one from column A and two from column B")
 
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atpollard

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Here you go, documentation of Charles Stanley and his carnal Christian teaching.

I really don’t care about jumping through your hoops, but when I looked, it took five whole minutes to find this:

The Gospel According to Charles Stanley - Berean Publishers
I found it as quickly as you did.

He also makes claims that are largely unsubstantiated or difficult to verify. Here is the opening from that page:

For those who are regular listeners of his broadcasts, to hear eternal security taught, directly or indirectly, is not uncommon! This is so because to him, the gospel itself is very closely connected with the teaching of eternal security. Stanley has put forth his view of this with these words:

“The very gospel itself comes under attack when the eternal security of the believer is questioned.[3] … the very foundations of Christianity begin to crumble once we begin tampering with the eternal security of the believer.”[4]

“Yet I reject the notion that eternal security is just a Baptist doctrine. As you read, I believe it will become apparent that this doctrine is first and foremost a biblical one.”[5]

“You see, it isn’t just good news. It is good news about Jesus Christ, Who paid our sin debt in full to a holy God Who required death for sin and the shedding of His blood, satisfied that requirement, and made it possible for you and me to be accepted in the eyes of God and to be eternally secure in Him. That’s why He called it the grace of God.”[6]

A close examination of these aforementioned statements from Charles Stanley clearly reveals his views on eternal security. To him it is: (1) intrinsically linked to the gospel, (2) foundational to Christianity, (3) a first and foremost Bible doctrine and (4) included under the grace of God!

The following is his definition of eternal security:

“… eternal security is that work of God in which He guarantees that the gift of salvation once received is possessed forever and cannot be lost.”[7]​


NOTHING ABOVE comes anywhere close to contradicting my claim that the Bible teaches ...

God grants "eternal salvation" and not "conditional salvation".

NOTHING ABOVE states anything remotely resembling the claim that was made that we Reformed / Calvinists teach ...

“God saves us to be able to live the most selfish, self centered, and sinful life possible, with no repentance, and remain in Christ”.

We are asked to "take your and his word" for Mr Stanley's apostasy based on:

One of the objectives of this booklet is to precisely identify what Stanley means when he says that our salvation “once received is possessed forever and cannot be lost.” Remember, this internationally known religious figure has linked this concept to the gospel and the grace of God. The following elaborates his view:

“The Bible clearly teaches that God’s love for His people is of such magnitude that even those who walk away from the faith have not the slightest chance of slipping from His hand.”[Eternal Security Can You Be Sure? (P. 74)]

“Even if a believer for all practical purposes becomes an unbeliever, his salvation is not in jeopardy.”[Ibid. (p. 93)]

“… believers who lose or abandon their faith will retain their salvation ….”[Ibid. (p. 94)]

By these statements, Stanley’s gospel shockingly declares someone still “saved” who becomes an apostate, that is, one who “becomes an unbeliever” or “lose or abandons their faith.” In other words, one’s salvation is always “possessed forever and cannot be lost” even if such a person no longer believes.​


We are offered no context and, in most cases, we are not even given the benefit of complete sentences.
How can anyone seriously evaluate such "proof"?

Here we have a quote from Charles Stanley that does offer enough to guess at the context:
  • “… You can’t sin and live like the devil down here and get by with it even as a believer. The Bible says you will lose your reward but you’ll be saved so as by fire. You won’t lose your salvation, but there’s a whole lot to lose, brother, by sinful living.”[Eternal Security You Can Be Sure, Tape #3, MH190.]
  • 1 Corinthians 3:12-15 [NLT] 12 Anyone who builds on that foundation may use a variety of materials--gold, silver, jewels, wood, hay, or straw. 13 But on the judgment day, fire will reveal what kind of work each builder has done. The fire will show if a person's work has any value. 14 If the work survives, that builder will receive a reward. 15 But if the work is burned up, the builder will suffer great loss. The builder will be saved, but like someone barely escaping through a wall of flames.
  • 1 Corinthians 3:10-15 [NASB20] 10 According to the grace of God which was given to me, like a wise master builder I laid a foundation, and another is building on it. But each person must be careful how he builds on it. 11 For no one can lay a foundation other than the one which is laid, which is Jesus Christ. 12 Now if anyone builds on the foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, or straw, 13 each one's work will become evident; for the day will show it because it is to be revealed with fire, and the fire itself will test the quality of each one's work. 14 If anyone's work which he has built on it remains, he will receive a reward. 15 If anyone's work is burned up, he will suffer loss; but he himself will be saved, yet only so as through fire.
Shall we condemn Paul for HIS message as well? Like Stanley, Paul said a Christian can loose a reward and still be saved?



For what it is worth, I think Mr Stanley is incorrect in his understanding of Grace and may have ventured into error that needed correction. I simply object to the slandering of Christian brothers without evidence of any wrong or, worse, with false statements. I feel as strongly about those that spread lies about Wesleyan Arminian teachers (Methodists and Church of God) with whom I disagree on soteriology.
 

Curtis

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Excellent ... you have stopped telling me what Reformed believe (and getting it wrong) and actually addressed Scripture for a change. I am EXCITED!


"it’s clear in context that the Philippians had from day one, partnered with Paul and supported him in the work of preaching the gospel,"
  • I completely agree. This is indeed the context in which Paul writes to the Corinthian Christians.

"and Paul says that God will continue that good work He began through them in their support of Paul, until the work is completed. The topic clearly is NOT their salvation at all, but their partnership in the gospel."
  • Sorry, but I really just do not see that in the words that Paul writes.
  • "And I am sure of this, that he who began a good work in you will bring it to completion at the day of Jesus Christ."
  • "And [Paul] am sure of this, that [God] who began a good work in [the Corinthian Christians] will bring [that good work] to completion at the day of Jesus Christ."
    • God began the work, so God will bring it to completion.
    • The good work was begun IN (inside) YOU (people - the Christians), so the work will be completed IN/INSIDE those same Christians where it began.
  • Nothing indicates that ANY of this is about preaching the Gospel.
  • It is ALL about GOD working in people ... that IS Salvation.

In verse 6, who are "I", "he" and "you"? ... How can that point to the Gospel as the good work to be completed?
The meaning is clear. Salvation is not the topic. Their works of helping Paul’s ministry was.
You are obviously going to impose your theology into the text, no matter what.
 

Curtis

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I found it as quickly as you did.

He also makes claims that are largely unsubstantiated or difficult to verify. Here is the opening from that page:

For those who are regular listeners of his broadcasts, to hear eternal security taught, directly or indirectly, is not uncommon! This is so because to him, the gospel itself is very closely connected with the teaching of eternal security. Stanley has put forth his view of this with these words:

“The very gospel itself comes under attack when the eternal security of the believer is questioned.[3] … the very foundations of Christianity begin to crumble once we begin tampering with the eternal security of the believer.”[4]

“Yet I reject the notion that eternal security is just a Baptist doctrine. As you read, I believe it will become apparent that this doctrine is first and foremost a biblical one.”[5]

“You see, it isn’t just good news. It is good news about Jesus Christ, Who paid our sin debt in full to a holy God Who required death for sin and the shedding of His blood, satisfied that requirement, and made it possible for you and me to be accepted in the eyes of God and to be eternally secure in Him. That’s why He called it the grace of God.”[6]

A close examination of these aforementioned statements from Charles Stanley clearly reveals his views on eternal security. To him it is: (1) intrinsically linked to the gospel, (2) foundational to Christianity, (3) a first and foremost Bible doctrine and (4) included under the grace of God!

The following is his definition of eternal security:

“… eternal security is that work of God in which He guarantees that the gift of salvation once received is possessed forever and cannot be lost.”[7]​


NOTHING ABOVE comes anywhere close to contradicting my claim that the Bible teaches ...

God grants "eternal salvation" and not "conditional salvation".

NOTHING ABOVE states anything remotely resembling the claim that was made that we Reformed / Calvinists teach ...

“God saves us to be able to live the most selfish, self centered, and sinful life possible, with no repentance, and remain in Christ”.

We are asked to "take your and his word" for Mr Stanley's apostasy based on:

One of the objectives of this booklet is to precisely identify what Stanley means when he says that our salvation “once received is possessed forever and cannot be lost.” Remember, this internationally known religious figure has linked this concept to the gospel and the grace of God. The following elaborates his view:

“The Bible clearly teaches that God’s love for His people is of such magnitude that even those who walk away from the faith have not the slightest chance of slipping from His hand.”[Eternal Security Can You Be Sure? (P. 74)]

“Even if a believer for all practical purposes becomes an unbeliever, his salvation is not in jeopardy.”[Ibid. (p. 93)]

“… believers who lose or abandon their faith will retain their salvation ….”[Ibid. (p. 94)]

By these statements, Stanley’s gospel shockingly declares someone still “saved” who becomes an apostate, that is, one who “becomes an unbeliever” or “lose or abandons their faith.” In other words, one’s salvation is always “possessed forever and cannot be lost” even if such a person no longer believes.​


We are offered no context and, in most cases, we are not even given the benefit of complete sentences.
How can anyone seriously evaluate such "proof"?

Here we have a quote from Charles Stanley that does offer enough to guess at the context:
  • “… You can’t sin and live like the devil down here and get by with it even as a believer. The Bible says you will lose your reward but you’ll be saved so as by fire. You won’t lose your salvation, but there’s a whole lot to lose, brother, by sinful living.”[Eternal Security You Can Be Sure, Tape #3, MH190.]
  • 1 Corinthians 3:12-15 [NLT] 12 Anyone who builds on that foundation may use a variety of materials--gold, silver, jewels, wood, hay, or straw. 13 But on the judgment day, fire will reveal what kind of work each builder has done. The fire will show if a person's work has any value. 14 If the work survives, that builder will receive a reward. 15 But if the work is burned up, the builder will suffer great loss. The builder will be saved, but like someone barely escaping through a wall of flames.
  • 1 Corinthians 3:10-15 [NASB20] 10 According to the grace of God which was given to me, like a wise master builder I laid a foundation, and another is building on it. But each person must be careful how he builds on it. 11 For no one can lay a foundation other than the one which is laid, which is Jesus Christ. 12 Now if anyone builds on the foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, or straw, 13 each one's work will become evident; for the day will show it because it is to be revealed with fire, and the fire itself will test the quality of each one's work. 14 If anyone's work which he has built on it remains, he will receive a reward. 15 If anyone's work is burned up, he will suffer loss; but he himself will be saved, yet only so as through fire.
Shall we condemn Paul for HIS message as well? Like Stanley, Paul said a Christian can loose a reward and still be saved?



For what it is worth, I think Mr Stanley is incorrect in his understanding of Grace and may have ventured into error that needed correction. I simply object to the slandering of Christian brothers without evidence of any wrong or, worse, with false statements. I feel as strongly about those that spread lies about Wesleyan Arminian teachers (Methodists and Church of God) with whom I disagree on soteriology.
Stanley turns loss of salvation due to living a very sinful lifestyle, into merely the loss of rewards. That’s not what the full counsel of scripture says.
 

Curtis

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GOD BEGAN THE WORK.
GOD WILL FINISH THE WORK.

What is this work that God began in you?
  • If you answer "salvation", then welcome to Calvinism.
  • If you object that you began your salvation and you will finish it ... then welcome to (Semi-)Pelagianism.
  • If you hedge and haw somewhere in the middle ... welcome to lukewarm theology ("My spirit tells me to pick one from column A and two from column B")
Asked and answered.

The good work God will complete is their work of continuing in their helping Paul’s ministry, as Paul says they did from the very beginning - which is the obvious subject in that text,

That’s too clear to obfuscate, except by Calvinists.
 

Curtis

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I found it as quickly as you did.

He also makes claims that are largely unsubstantiated or difficult to verify. Here is the opening from that page:

For those who are regular listeners of his broadcasts, to hear eternal security taught, directly or indirectly, is not uncommon! This is so because to him, the gospel itself is very closely connected with the teaching of eternal security. Stanley has put forth his view of this with these words:

“The very gospel itself comes under attack when the eternal security of the believer is questioned.[3] … the very foundations of Christianity begin to crumble once we begin tampering with the eternal security of the believer.”[4]

“Yet I reject the notion that eternal security is just a Baptist doctrine. As you read, I believe it will become apparent that this doctrine is first and foremost a biblical one.”[5]

“You see, it isn’t just good news. It is good news about Jesus Christ, Who paid our sin debt in full to a holy God Who required death for sin and the shedding of His blood, satisfied that requirement, and made it possible for you and me to be accepted in the eyes of God and to be eternally secure in Him. That’s why He called it the grace of God.”[6]

A close examination of these aforementioned statements from Charles Stanley clearly reveals his views on eternal security. To him it is: (1) intrinsically linked to the gospel, (2) foundational to Christianity, (3) a first and foremost Bible doctrine and (4) included under the grace of God!

The following is his definition of eternal security:

“… eternal security is that work of God in which He guarantees that the gift of salvation once received is possessed forever and cannot be lost.”[7]​


NOTHING ABOVE comes anywhere close to contradicting my claim that the Bible teaches ...

God grants "eternal salvation" and not "conditional salvation".

NOTHING ABOVE states anything remotely resembling the claim that was made that we Reformed / Calvinists teach ...

“God saves us to be able to live the most selfish, self centered, and sinful life possible, with no repentance, and remain in Christ”.

We are asked to "take your and his word" for Mr Stanley's apostasy based on:

One of the objectives of this booklet is to precisely identify what Stanley means when he says that our salvation “once received is possessed forever and cannot be lost.” Remember, this internationally known religious figure has linked this concept to the gospel and the grace of God. The following elaborates his view:

“The Bible clearly teaches that God’s love for His people is of such magnitude that even those who walk away from the faith have not the slightest chance of slipping from His hand.”[Eternal Security Can You Be Sure? (P. 74)]

“Even if a believer for all practical purposes becomes an unbeliever, his salvation is not in jeopardy.”[Ibid. (p. 93)]

“… believers who lose or abandon their faith will retain their salvation ….”[Ibid. (p. 94)]

By these statements, Stanley’s gospel shockingly declares someone still “saved” who becomes an apostate, that is, one who “becomes an unbeliever” or “lose or abandons their faith.” In other words, one’s salvation is always “possessed forever and cannot be lost” even if such a person no longer believes.​


We are offered no context and, in most cases, we are not even given the benefit of complete sentences.
How can anyone seriously evaluate such "proof"?

Here we have a quote from Charles Stanley that does offer enough to guess at the context:
  • “… You can’t sin and live like the devil down here and get by with it even as a believer. The Bible says you will lose your reward but you’ll be saved so as by fire. You won’t lose your salvation, but there’s a whole lot to lose, brother, by sinful living.”[Eternal Security You Can Be Sure, Tape #3, MH190.]
  • 1 Corinthians 3:12-15 [NLT] 12 Anyone who builds on that foundation may use a variety of materials--gold, silver, jewels, wood, hay, or straw. 13 But on the judgment day, fire will reveal what kind of work each builder has done. The fire will show if a person's work has any value. 14 If the work survives, that builder will receive a reward. 15 But if the work is burned up, the builder will suffer great loss. The builder will be saved, but like someone barely escaping through a wall of flames.
  • 1 Corinthians 3:10-15 [NASB20] 10 According to the grace of God which was given to me, like a wise master builder I laid a foundation, and another is building on it. But each person must be careful how he builds on it. 11 For no one can lay a foundation other than the one which is laid, which is Jesus Christ. 12 Now if anyone builds on the foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, or straw, 13 each one's work will become evident; for the day will show it because it is to be revealed with fire, and the fire itself will test the quality of each one's work. 14 If anyone's work which he has built on it remains, he will receive a reward. 15 If anyone's work is burned up, he will suffer loss; but he himself will be saved, yet only so as through fire.
Shall we condemn Paul for HIS message as well? Like Stanley, Paul said a Christian can loose a reward and still be saved?



For what it is worth, I think Mr Stanley is incorrect in his understanding of Grace and may have ventured into error that needed correction. I simply object to the slandering of Christian brothers without evidence of any wrong or, worse, with false statements. I feel as strongly about those that spread lies about Wesleyan Arminian teachers (Methodists and Church of God) with whom I disagree on soteriology.

You can spin it all day long, they adequately cite what Stanley preaches and document it with footnotes.

And the article is geared for those who’ve heard his preaching of OSAS as they also make clear - it’s not intended to be used in a debate by a Calvinist imposing Reformed bias in attempting to refute it, as you’ve done.
 

Curtis

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ego is all about self and those who think that anything they do themselves saves or preserves them is just ego. and freewill is a Greek philosophy not a Christian theology until the catholic church converted freewill to Christianity. if you credit your self for the successes of your salvation then you don't know the Lord God of Abraham Isaac and Jacob nor do you trust the same God to keep you.

The NT scriptures are written in Greek, but the clear scriptures that refute the fatalistic philosophy of determinism called Calvinism, are not themselves a Greek philosophy as you incorrectly claim.