Great Schism in the Body

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friend of

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In my young life as a Christian, I've come to recognize that the great schism in Christianity is between Calvinism and Arminianism. Monergism vs. Synergism. OSAS vs. Conditional Salvation.

If I'm being honest, I must admit that both sides have scriptural support for their views.

Why did God allow this to happen? He could have written the scriptures in such a way that would have fully supported one position over the other; God did not. How come?

No flaming.

God bless!
 

Ronald David Bruno

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In my young life as a Christian, I've come to recognize that the great schism in Christianity is between Calvinism and Arminianism. Monergism vs. Synergism. OSAS vs. Conditional Salvation.

If I'm being honest, I must admit that both sides have scriptural support for their views.

Why did God allow this to happen? He could have written the scriptures in such a way that would have fully supported one position over the other; God did not. How come?

No flaming.

God bless!
I think trying to construct a theology with an acronym like TULIP about God's thoughts, His plans, His design of man and salvation is like putting God in a box. I think it is flawed. I think Arminism is also flawed. Monergism is true, OSAS true but still can't agree totally with Calvin. I think it is high minded to attempt to construct something with such strict parameters. God calls all men to himself, but some resist and reject. Now He knows which ones will come, His sheep. Still, so that the reprobate can't have an excuse that God made them that way, He calls them too, just to be fair. Romans 1 says that man is without excuse given the visible and invisible attributes of God that have been seen and experienced. It is true that God enables man to come to Him. He draws him and through a series of events and people, He orchestrates the whole process. That is what I realized, that He planned it, every little moment that led me closer to Him until He removed my veil of blindness OR He lifted it little by little gradually shedding more light.
Totally Depraved was not quite the write word to use. We are dead in our sins and unable to cure our dilemma. We are therefore Carnal minded. But totally depraved? I guess if you looked at all the humans who died in the Flood, you could say that. But Adam and Eve weren't totally depraved, Abel, Enoch, Noah, etc. Still, can we say man is totally depraved now? Well then we can't say men are without excuse, because that would be an excuse, if they didn't see and experience God in some way. In the USA, this country has been flooded with Biblical principles, Jesus, whether people believe it or not. Jesus has changed the world for the better because we live by these truths. When they reject God and the Bible, they just attribute those truths to something else, like they just evolved, man figured them out.
Unconditional Election? God chose us first, then we were convinced and followed. But He predestined us according to His foreknowledge. Do we know exactly what that knowledge of the individual was? NO! So how can put that into a construct? This time domain is an obstacle for us to wrap our minds around these concepts. God operates outside or our time domain. Go figure how that works.
Limited Atonement? Christ's sacrifice was sufficient for all, but obviously He knew all would not be saved. But the word "limited" kind of takes away from the All Mighty. Sufficient atonement doesn't work in His acronym, Calvin needed to make a nice little neat word. He must of shuffled many words and letters and then settled.
Irresistible Grace? I wonder, people resist. Calvin goes into different kinds of grace, common grace, saving grace ... Grace is grace, it's resistible. I see people who become Christian get excited but then fall away. So in a sense they receive God, then later change their minds and resist? I knew a guy who committed suicide. That is the opposite of faith. What was he thinking? I didn't resist it. My Pastor said he felt like when the calling came, he was dragged down the aisle to the alter. It was God's divine appointment. It is powerful. I wonder if men resist all their lives and then just give in at the last moment like my parents. Good folks, but resistant. So then they were His sheep, but it took them a lifetime of fussing and resisting God. It took them the approach of death to get their attention.
Perseverance of the Saints? I agree with that. OSAS.
Anyways, I would certainly not say I was an Arminian. I guess I am a little of both.
 

Robert Gwin

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In my young life as a Christian, I've come to recognize that the great schism in Christianity is between Calvinism and Arminianism. Monergism vs. Synergism. OSAS vs. Conditional Salvation.

If I'm being honest, I must admit that both sides have scriptural support for their views.

Why did God allow this to happen? He could have written the scriptures in such a way that would have fully supported one position over the other; God did not. How come?

No flaming.

God bless!

Jesus did not hold back in stating clearly that following him would result in divisions, perhaps even into our very own family. But make no mistake, those who choose to follow him over those who divide themselves from us, inherit such a larger family.
(Mark 10:29, 30) . . .Jesus said: “Truly I say to you, no one has left house or brothers or sisters or mother or father or children or fields for my sake and for the sake of the good news 30 who will not get 100 times more now in this period of time—houses, brothers, sisters, mothers, children, and fields, with persecutions—and in the coming system of things, everlasting life.
 

Hidden In Him

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In my young life as a Christian, I've come to recognize that the great schism in Christianity is between Calvinism and Arminianism. Monergism vs. Synergism. OSAS vs. Conditional Salvation.

If I'm being honest, I must admit that both sides have scriptural support for their views.

Why did God allow this to happen? He could have written the scriptures in such a way that would have fully supported one position over the other; God did not. How come?

Hey, Friend Of.

If I'm being honest, the cases for Calvinism, Monergism and OSAS are not that strong, and it takes reading and interpreting the scriptures in the flesh in order to accept them.

So my response would be that the "scriptural supports" for such positions are not really there like many assume they are. To get into it all would be a long discussion, of course, but that would be my response. I've never found any of them to be the least bit compelling, and never will.

God bless, and hope you are well!
- H
 

friend of

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God wanted the liars and false teachers to be exposed.

But that's not really happening. Both camps are enormous and if one is protestant today it's highly likely that they fall within one of these two major camps.
 

friend of

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So my response would be that the "scriptural supports" for such positions are not really there like many assume they are. To get into it all would be a long discussion, of course, but that would be my response. I've never found any of them to be the least bit compelling, and never will

Okay I will have to get scriptures about Calvinism in this thread when I get home. Then you can go over them.
 

ScottA

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In my young life as a Christian, I've come to recognize that the great schism in Christianity is between Calvinism and Arminianism. Monergism vs. Synergism. OSAS vs. Conditional Salvation.

If I'm being honest, I must admit that both sides have scriptural support for their views.

Why did God allow this to happen? He could have written the scriptures in such a way that would have fully supported one position over the other; God did not. How come?

No flaming.

God bless!
This two edged sword was intentional...just as a type of blindness over Israel, and for the same reason: until the fullness of the gentiles comes.

Then comes the end.

Do not be troubled.
 

Hidden In Him

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Okay I will have to get scriptures about Calvinism in this thread when I get home. Then you can go over them.

Since I have a little time to blow, let me at least address one passage that might come up; the verse in John 6 that states, "No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him, and I will raise him up at the last day."

This verse, like all verses, is to be understood in its context. Jesus was here likening Himself to the True Bread of Life from Heaven, which the manna in the wilderness prefigured. And just as manna in the wilderness drew the Israelites unto dependency upon God for their physical sustenance, so too was dependency upon the True Bread of the Life from Heaven, the Word of God made flesh, drawing people unto God the Father in New Testament times. In other words, Jesus focus in this passage was to tell them that HE HIMSELF was what God the Father was using to draw all men unto Himself, just as manna once did in the wilderness. The problem, however, was that not all of Israel responded favorably. Many murmured against God in the wilderness, and did not want the bread God offered. They wanted the food of Egypt instead; the cucumbers, and the leaks, and other things. So, too, did many in Israel not want the spiritual food God was providing them in the form of the True Bread of Life, Jesus Christ. God was seeking to draw them unto Himself, but they were murmuring against Him yet again, not wanting Jesus as their Messiah. But those who had been truly learning from God in Israel already and had their ears open to hear were coming to Christ as the True Bread of Life and receiving Him gladly, because they were already receptive to the things of God and His leading.

This is what the passage was teaching. I will highlight some of the words that key off the explanation I was giving you.

32 Then Jesus said to them, “Most assuredly, I say to you, Moses did not give you the bread from heaven, but My Father gives you the true bread from heaven. 33 For the bread of God is He who comes down from heaven and gives life to the world.” 34 Then they said to Him, “Lord, give us this bread always.” 35 And Jesus said to them, “I am the bread of life. He who comes to Me shall never hunger, and he who believes in Me shall never thirst. 36 But I said to you that you have seen Me and yet do not believe. 37 All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will by no means cast out. 38 For I have come down from heaven, not to do My own will, but the will of Him who sent Me. 39 This is the will of the Father who sent Me, that of all He has given Me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up at the last day. 40 And this is the will of Him who sent Me, that everyone who sees the Son and believes in Him may have everlasting life; and I will raise him up at the last day.”

41 The Jews then complained about Him, because He said, “I am the bread which came down from heaven.” 42 And they said, “Is not this Jesus, the son of Joseph, whose father and mother we know? How is it then that He says, ‘I have come down from heaven’?”

43 Jesus therefore answered and said to them, “Do not murmur amongst yourselves. 44 No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up at the last day. 45 It is written in the prophets, ‘And they shall all be taught by God.Therefore everyone who has heard and learned from the Father comes to Me. 46 Not that anyone has seen the Father, except He who is from God; He has seen the Father. 47 Most assuredly, I say to you, he who believes in Me has everlasting life. 48 I am the bread of life. 49 Your fathers ate the manna in the wilderness, and are dead. 50 This is the bread which comes down from heaven, that one may eat of it and not die. 51 I am the living bread which came down from heaven. If anyone eats of this bread, he will live forever; and the bread that I shall give is My flesh, which I shall give for the life of the world.

If His flesh was given for all the world to have life and yet He did not want them to have Life, then God is psychotic. But the fact that His flesh was given that all mankind might have Life means that God was once again trying to draw the entire world unto Himself through Christ, just as He tried to draw all of Israel unto Himself through the manna in the wilderness. But many in the world reject Him to this day, just like many rejected Him in the wilderness long ago. Who will be saved? Those who properly respond to His drawing by drawing unto Him in return, and of their own free will. This is why James said in his letter, "Draw near to God, and He will draw near to you." As the scriptures also state, "God would that all men be saved," but they must all draw near to Him in response if they would be.
 
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Bob Estey

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In my young life as a Christian, I've come to recognize that the great schism in Christianity is between Calvinism and Arminianism. Monergism vs. Synergism. OSAS vs. Conditional Salvation.

If I'm being honest, I must admit that both sides have scriptural support for their views.

Why did God allow this to happen? He could have written the scriptures in such a way that would have fully supported one position over the other; God did not. How come?

No flaming.

God bless!
Maybe the Lord wanted us to think.
 
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Wrangler

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He could have written the scriptures in such a way that would have fully supported one position over the other; God did not. How come?

The answer is as obvious as could be.

God said some things and did not say other things. While much of Scripture is figurative, I submit the important things are explicitly stated. Paraphrasing the most important explicit statement in the whole Bible is Love God. Love others.

The obvious answer is that doctrine merely 'supported' but not explicitly stated is just not that important to God. We have turned our own personal biased list of doctrines into an idol, plain and simple. God is not a list of theological precepts. Doctrines have become our idol.

We like to qualify, make conditional, the commands Love God. Love others. Unfortunately for the idolators among us, God did not express the commands as conditional contracts but unconditional covenants. There is no 'love others IF they pass your doctrinal purity test.' Hope this helps.
 

Hidden In Him

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@Hidden In Him what do you make of a verse like 1 Peter 1:1-2?

1 Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ, to the sojourners of the Dispersion in Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia, 2 chosen according to the foreknowledge of God the Father through sanctification of the Spirit unto obedience, and the sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace to you and peace be multiplied.

People were not just haphazardly choosing to become Christians during NT times after clicking through channels on a TV, or deciding to go to a local church service. The Lord was specifically choosing those who would have the gospel preached to them and who would not. This was true of Cornelius and his house (Acts 10), of the Thessalonians (Acts 16), of the twelve disciples being specifically chosen by the Lord, and of the specific people Christ Himself was sent to minister to, and then the apostles after Him, whether they be Gentiles or Jews. The Spirit of God was guiding every bit of it; who went, where they went, when they went, and to whom they preached to.

This was still the case when Peter was writing this letter. Those belonging to the church had been specifically chosen by God to have the gospel preached to them; people targeted by His Spirit, whom He knew would be especially receptive to Him. But this did not mean they had no freewill; they were simply chosen to hear the gospel and have the Spirit poured out upon them if they received it. Though especially receptive to it by the foreknowledge of God, the decision was nevertheless still theirs to make on whether they would walk in it or not thereafter.
 

stunnedbygrace

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In my young life as a Christian, I've come to recognize that the great schism in Christianity is between Calvinism and Arminianism. Monergism vs. Synergism. OSAS vs. Conditional Salvation.

If I'm being honest, I must admit that both sides have scriptural support for their views.

Why did God allow this to happen? He could have written the scriptures in such a way that would have fully supported one position over the other; God did not. How come?

No flaming.

God bless!

The entire Bible is in parables actually. On the one hand, we have no choice but to begin to read it by the letter because it's our default position. On the other hand, if you set your efforts on learning the obedience of trust and don’t refuse it because of the aversion the flesh has to that way with all its aridities and turbulences, more understanding is given. To he who has, more will be given.
To read it by the letter, which is to read it to the flesh, creates arrogance, puffed up knowledge and arguing. If you sow to the flesh you reap to the flesh.
 
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Ezra

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Why did God allow this to happen?
HE didnt its called doctrines of man saved is saved if you had a born again experience. that name tag amounts to nothing. man has to improve the Bible division schism has been around for ages . its Jesus way truth life man can not be satisfied with that .

If I'm being honest, I must admit that both sides have scriptural support for their views.
yes and we should respect that provided its not some fly by night group that takes scripture to fit there needs . forums is one of the worst
 

Lambano

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In my young life as a Christian, I've come to recognize that the great schism in Christianity is between Calvinism and Arminianism. Monergism vs. Synergism. OSAS vs. Conditional Salvation.

If I'm being honest, I must admit that both sides have scriptural support for their views.

Why did God allow this to happen? He could have written the scriptures in such a way that would have fully supported one position over the other; God did not. How come?

No flaming.

God bless!
Systematic Theology at its core tries to build a conceptual model of God so that we can have the illusion that we understand Him and can predict what He'll do in any given situation. Basically, it's an idol-building machine. It has its purpose.

There are worse schisms in the Body. Many (most?) are just battles over who gets to be on top. Who gets to decide what God is like and decide what we humans need to be doing.
 
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Lambano

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Why did God allow this to happen? He could have written the scriptures in such a way that would have fully supported one position over the other; God did not. How come?

This is an interesting question, and it's one of the reasons I can't read the Bible from the same perspective most people here do.

Some thoughts, and this is just me:
  1. God is sovereign. Humans are responsible. Both principles are taught in the Bible. I don't understand how these interactions work in real life, but I trust God to work them out. That principle is also taught in the Bible.
  2. “'For My thoughts are not your thoughts, nor are your ways My ways', declares the Lord” (Isaiah 55:8) A man's gotta know his limitations, and this keeps me humble.
  3. "Knowledge puffeth up, but love edifies" (1 Corinthians 8:1) Oh, I see what happens when humans think they (and they exclusively) have "The Truth". "Love edifies."
  4. Humans need to believe that their choices and actions matter. (At least, that's how it works for me.) The corollary is that we are responsible and accountable for our choices and actions. This is the way we live out our lives.
  5. However, I also believe that humans are healthiest when they understand themselves to be part of something greater than themselves. We are part of God's plan. "History does not move with aimless feet." This is also how we should live our lives.
 
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