Hades / The Grave

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Webers_Home

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The comments and questions below are relative to Luke 16:19-31.

How is it that the rich man and Abraham were able to see from their own
grave into each other's grave? Do dead people have X-ray vision? Do they
have any vision at all let alone X-ray?

Do dead people actually have the ability to communicate with other dead
people? You'd think that dead people would be deaf and mute seeing as how
they're deceased and no longer sentient.

What is the nature of the barrier that existed between Abraham's grave and
the rich man's grave? The story suggests dead people could, and would, visit
one another's graves were it not for the barrier separating them.

From whence did the rich man assume that Lazarus could fetch water? Was
Lazarus' grave adjacent to an aquifer or some such?

The story suggests that Abraham and Lazarus shared the same grave, i.e.
Lazarus' corpse was laid to rest with Abraham's corpse.

The story tells that Lazarus' pall bearers were angels. Is that common, or
was Lazarus' funeral a special event?
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Webers_Home

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For some time now, I've been curious from whence the Bible obtained that
story in Luke 16:19-31. It's commonly attributed to Jesus, but I've so far
been unable to locate any textual evidence proving beyond a shadow of
sensible doubt, or even suggesting, that he actually taught it.

That story seems to me out of place; sort of a footnote plopped into the
midst of Luke's gospel like an afterthought.
_
 

Webers_Home

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Luke 16:23-25 . . He cried out and said: Father Abraham, have mercy on
me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water and cool
off my tongue; for I am in agony in this flame.

The Greek word for "flame" is phlox (flox) which essentially means a blaze.

Well; apparently the rich man wasn't engulfed in the blaze. I assume so
because his view wasn't obscured to the point wherein conditions prevented
him from seeing clearly enough to spy Abraham and Lazarus at some
distance. (There may in fact have been other people in the area too but the
Bible left them out of the story; likely because they're not relevant.)

Did the rich man actually think that Lazarus would agree to walk thru fire to
bring him water? That part of the story is very curious.

The blaze is curious too. Was it not so hot that moisture on a wet fingertip
could survive evaporation long enough for Lazarus to reach the man and
apply it to his tongue?

Why did the rich man request such a small amount of water? Why not a
mug, or better yet; a whole bucket?
_
 

Philip James

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You'd think that dead people would be deaf and mute seeing as how
they're deceased and no longer sentient

Have you not heard? I am the God of Abraham, and Isaac and Jacob...

He is the God of the living! Not the dead...

Peace be with you!
 
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Webers_Home

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Luke 16:19-31 is commonly alleged to be a parable; which of course implies
that the story is fiction; and some would even say fantasy. But the parable
theory has a fatal flaw. Abraham is not a fictional character: he's a real-life
man; the father of the Hebrew people, held in very high esteem by at least
three of the world's prominent religions: Judaism, Christianity, and Islam.
And he's also the friend of God (Isa 41:8).

I simply cannot believe that Jesus Christ-- a man famous among normal
Christians for his honesty and integrity --would say something untrue about
a famous real-life man; especially about one of his Father's buddies.

And on top of that, the story quotes Abraham a number of times. Well; if the
story is fiction, then Jesus Christ is on record testifying that Abraham said
things that he didn't really say; which is a clear violation of the
commandment that prohibits bearing false witness.
_
 

Webers_Home

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Modern evangelists like Billy Graham and Luis Palau generally compose their
own sermons and pick their own topics. Jesus did neither; he was
micromanaged by a higher power.

John 8:26 . . He that sent me is true; and I speak to the world those things
which I have heard of Him.

John 8:28 . . I do nothing on my own initiative, but I speak these things as
the Father taught me.

John 12:49 . . I have not spoken of myself; but the Father which sent me,
He gave me a commandment, what I should say, and what I should speak.

John 14:24 . .The word which you hear is not mine, but the Father's who
sent me.

Heb 1:2 . . In these last days, God has spoken to us by His son.

So then, all the parables-- those clearly identified as such, and those
assumed as such --originated with God; who has thousands upon many
thousands of years under His belt observing His creation. I seriously doubt
that God has to resort to spinning yarns in order to get His points across
seeing as how God has at His disposal an immense archive of eye-witness
experiences to draw upon and put to use.

There's yet another issue to consider-- God cannot lie. (Titus 1:2)

I strongly urge those who insist that Luke 16:9-31 is a yarn to use what
time they have remaining in this life to begin preparing themselves for the
worst when they pass on because it's fatal to disbelieve God's eye-witness
reports.

John 3:31-36 . .He who comes from heaven is above all; and what he has
seen and heard, that he testifies. For he whom God has sent speaks the
words of God. He who believes in the Son has everlasting life; and he who
does not believe the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God abides on
him.
_
 

Enoch111

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The story suggests that Abraham and Lazarus shared the same grave, i.e. Lazarus' corpse was laid to rest with Abraham's corpse.
Why don't you study the narrative of the Rich Man and Lazarus properly before making such erroneous comments?

Let's start here: And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments...

Does that say "in the grave" or does it say "in hell"?

And is this a reference to Hades or is it a reference to Gehenna (the eternal Lake of Fire)?

Let's see what the Greek text says:
καὶ ἐν τῷ ᾅδῃ* ἐπάρας τοὺς ὀφθαλμοὺς αὐτοῦ, ὑπάρχων ἐν βασάνοις, ὁρᾷ τὸν Ἀβραὰμ ἀπὸ μακρόθεν, καὶ Λάζαρον ἐν τοῖς κόλποις αὐτοῦ

*Strong's Concordance
hadés: Hades, the abode of departed spirits
Original Word: ᾍδης, ου, ὁ
Part of Speech: Noun, Masculine
Transliteration: hadés
Phonetic Spelling: (hah'-dace)
Definition: Hades, the abode of departed spirits
Usage: Hades, the unseen world.

So that puts a totally different light on the subject. Abraham had died long before and gone to Hades (called Sheol in the OT). Then Lazarus joined him in *Abraham's bosom*, the compartment in Hades reserved for the righteous dead, where Lazarus was comforted.

However, the Rich Man was in torments in Hades, which means that he was separated from Abraham and Lazarus (and all the OT saints) by a wide chasm or gulf. And neither one could cross over, which means that there are no second chances after death.

But all their corpses were in their graves, Abraham's already turned to dust, and those of the other two in the process of being converted to dust. So how in the world did you begin by talking about graves and corpses? The worms would not be happy because you opened a can of worms.;)
 

Webers_Home

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Creeping up the blind side, shinning up the wall,
stealing through the dark of the night.
Climbing through a window, stepping to the floor
checking to the left and the right.
Picking up the pieces, putting them away;
something doesn't feel quite right.

Help me someone, let me out of here.
Then out of the dark was suddenly heard:
Welcome to the Home by the Sea

Coming out the woodwork, through the open door,
pushing from above and below.
Shadows with no substance, in the shape of men;
round and down and sideways they go.
Adrift without direction, eyes that hold despair
then as one they sigh and they moan:

Help us someone, let us out of here.
Living here so long undisturbed,
dreaming of the time we were free
so many years ago
before the time when we first heard:
Welcome to the Home by the Sea

Sit down . . Sit down
As we relive our lives in what we tell you

Images of sorrow, pictures of delight
things that go to make up a life.
Endless days of summer, longer nights of gloom
waiting for the morning light.
Scenes of unimportance, photos in a frame
things that go to make up a life.

Sit down . . Sit down
Cause you won't get away,
no; with us you will stay
for the rest of your days.
So sit down as we relive our lives in what we tell you.
Let us relive our lives in what we tell you.

(Home By The Sea, GENESIS 1983: Phil Collins, Tony Banks, Mike Rutherford)

The lyrics of that song are useful for depicting how one of the few thing that
some people have to do down in the netherworld to help pass the time is tell
each other about their previous lives. There is, of course, nothing to tell
about their lives down there since the colloquialism "get a life" is a non
sequitur in that place. Nobody has a life; nor any hope of getting one.
_
 

Webers_Home

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Through me; the way to the eternal city.
Through me; the way to eternal sadness.
Through me; the way to lost people.

Justice moved my supreme maker:
I was shaped by divine power,
By highest wisdom, and by primal love.

Before me, nothing was created
That is not eternal: and eternally I endure.
Abandon all hope, you that enter here.

(The Divine Comedy, Dante Alighieri, Inferno: canto 3, v.1-9)

Dante's poetic epic is called a comedy because it has a happy ending as
opposed to a tragedy; at least for Dante anyway. The souls he and Virgil
pass along the way through the Inferno portion of Dante's odyssey will
never, nor anon, have a happy ending; hence the sign above the entrance to
his netherworld: "Abandon all hope, you that enter here."

Webster's defines "despair' as: to no longer have any hope or belief that a
situation will improve or change. Down in the Inferno section of Dante's
concept, despair is a way of life.

One of the hardest concepts to get across is the despair that people in hell
must feel in knowing that their situation is a sealed fate with no hope of
relief. Dante's odyssey, though of course fiction, is useful for that purpose;
especially when it's accompanied by illustrations painted by Gustave Doré.

Jesus warned people that they'd be better off facing eternity with their
hands and their feet amputated, and their eyes gouged out, then to end up
in a hell he called geena; a much worse place than haides. So in my
estimation, Dante's descriptions, and Gustave's paintings, though disturbing
enough in themselves, aren't sufficient to impress just how unfortunate the
ultimate hell really is.
_
 

Stan B

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Why don't you study the narrative of the Rich Man and Lazarus properly before making such erroneous comments?

However, the Rich Man was in torments in Hades, which means that he was separated from Abraham and Lazarus (and all the OT saints) by a wide chasm or gulf. And neither one could cross over, which means that there are no second chances after death.

Enoch says "there are no second chances after death"

Where is that stated in Scripture??

And why, when Christ came to set the prisoner free, Why then after His death, did He go to Sheol to preach to those who had died before the flood??
 
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Enoch111

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Enoch says "there are no second chances after death". Where is that stated in Scripture??

And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment...(Heb 9:27) [No second chances after death]

But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented. And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that would come from thence. (Lk 16:25,26) [No second chances after death]

And why, when Christ came to set the prisoner free, Why then after His death, did He go to Sheol to preach to those who had died before the flood??
Just before Christ died on the cross He cried out with a loud voice "IT IS FINISHED".

That meant that the redemptive work of Christ was finished at the cross, and Jesus had destroyed the power of sin, death, Hades, Hell, and Satan. Indeed the *gates of Hades* had been destroyed (and consequently all the OT saints were taken by Him to Heaven upon His resurrection). So when He went to *preach* to the spirits in prison in Sheol/Hades, He did not go to offer salvation to the damned, but to declare to all the spirits (human and angelic) that He is Lord and that their judgment is certain. In effect, to proclaim* His victory. And that is what that word "preach" means (in that context).

*Strong's Concordance

kérussó: to be a herald, proclaim
Original Word: κηρύσσω
Part of Speech: Verb
Transliteration: kérussó
Phonetic Spelling: (kay-roos'-so)
Definition: to be a herald, proclaim

Usage: I proclaim, herald, preach.

Thayer's Greek Lexicon
STRONGS NT 2784: κηρύσσω
a. univ to publish, proclaim openly: something which has been done...
b. specifically used of the public proclamation of the gospel and matters pertaining to it...


The judgment by Christ of those who fail to repent is certain, and this too was proclaimed by Him: And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent: Because He hath appointed a day, in the which He will judge the world in righteousness by that Man whom He hath ordained; whereof He hath given assurance unto all men, in that He hath raised him from the dead. (Acts 17:30,31).







 

Stan B

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And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment...(Heb 9:27) [No second chances after death]

But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented. And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that would come from thence. (Lk 16:25,26) [No second chances after death]


Just before Christ died on the cross He cried out with a loud voice "IT IS FINISHED".

That meant that the redemptive work of Christ was finished at the cross, and Jesus had destroyed the power of sin, death, Hades, Hell, and Satan. Indeed the *gates of Hades* had been destroyed (and consequently all the OT saints were taken by Him to Heaven upon His resurrection). So when He went to *preach* to the spirits in prison in Sheol/Hades, He did not go to offer salvation to the damned, but to declare to all the spirits (human and angelic) that He is Lord and that their judgment is certain. In effect, to proclaim* His victory. And that is what that word "preach" means (in that context).

*Strong's Concordance

kérussó: to be a herald, proclaim
Original Word: κηρύσσω
Part of Speech: Verb
Transliteration: kérussó
Phonetic Spelling: (kay-roos'-so)
Definition: to be a herald, proclaim

Usage: I proclaim, herald, preach.

Thayer's Greek Lexicon
STRONGS NT 2784: κηρύσσω
a. univ to publish, proclaim openly: something which has been done...
b. specifically used of the public proclamation of the gospel and matters pertaining to it...


The judgment by Christ of those who fail to repent is certain, and this too was proclaimed by Him: And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent: Because he hath appointed a day, in the which he will judge the world in righteousness by that man whom he hath ordained; whereof he hath given assurance unto all men, in that he hath raised him from the dead. (Acts 17:30,31).

Enoch declared>> "So when He went to *preach* to the spirits in prison in Sheol/Hades, He did not go to offer salvation to the damned,"

So much for the Gospel according to Enoch! You are adding your own Gospel to Scripture. And what you have added is unbelievably disgusting! So when Christ went to Sheol to preach to those who had died before the flood, Jesus just went there to gloat; "Haw haw, giggle. You guys really screwed up, and now I am going to send you to Hell!! Haw, haw, giggle giggle!"

Maybe that is the Jesus you know, but totally foreign to the one I know!
 
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Stan B

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And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment...(Heb 9:27) [No second chances after death]

And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment...(Heb 9:27) [No second chances after death]

Enoch, I clearly understand that judgment takes place "after death", but the Bible NEVER says "[No second chances after death]" That can be found only in the false Gospel of Enoch!

The antediluvians never broke the laws of God, because there was no Law at that time.
 
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Webers_Home

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Many years ago-- when I was a young single guy in his early twenties, living
alone in a cheap rental --as I was listening to a radio preacher talk about
hell, something in my mind took over; and I had the strangest sensation of
falling off the earth into an abyss and nobody cared, nor did anybody miss
me, nor did my disappearance cause any alarm nor make any difference.

The freeways remained busy with frustrated drivers and honking horns,
people still got up to go to work, shoppers crowded the supermarkets and
department stores, kids caught their buses to school, birds kept right on
chirping, grass kept on growing, ocean waves went on rolling onto the
beach, trains kept running, airlines kept flying, clouds moved across the sky;
and all that.

My absence changed nothing nor disturbed anyone nor anything. The world
was utterly indifferent; it kept right on turning, clocks went on ticking; and
nature and man went right on with their business as usual without the
slightest hiccup. At that moment I realized just how alone and how obscure
people must feel when they exhale their final breath and cross over to the
other side.

Back in March of 2015, Andrew Getty, an heir to J. Paul Getty's oil fortune,
died at the age of 47. In life, Andrew had many friends. You know how many
accompanied him on his journey across the river Styx? Nary a one.

You gotta walk that lonesome valley,
You gotta walk it by yourself,
Nobody here can walk it for you,
You gotta walk it by yourself.

(Woody Guthrie)
_
 

Webers_Home

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People have been filtering into perdition not only since the time of Christ,
but since before the Step Pyramid of Djoser, and even before the Flood. I
won't speculate how many years that might be, but h.sapiens is thought by
some to have achieved full behavioral modernity something like 50,000
years ago. (There's new findings suggesting that human existence goes as
far back as 150-300,000 years) Anyway; whether that extends clear on back
to Adam and Eve I have no clue; but just think: if it does, then Cain and
others from his era have been down in the netherworld all this time.

It's difficult for the human mind to appreciate 50,000 years let alone
300,000. I've been on the Earth for just 75, and I've noticed that my
childhood is so far in the past to me now as to seem more like a fantasy
than a memory. But you know; when you're talking about eternity, 50,000
years isn't even a drop in the bucket. If it were a drop in the bucket, it would
be a bucket with no bottom; which is roughly akin to the futility of a gnat
attempting to drink up the Atlantic ocean.

But just think: time stands still in hell: it's for the now; it's an existence.
People who arrived there yesterday didn't begin doing time in jail like Martha
Stewart expecting to get out some day; nor is perdition a temporary tour of
duty like shipping out to Afghanistan. No, people in hell are in it as perpetual
residents; they're in a rut.

They go year, after year, after year, after year, with no relief from the
discomfort: no vacations, no recreation, no reading materials, and no
hobbies-- there's absolutely nothing to do but reminisce. The mental
atrophy, and the boredom that must result from that kind of mindless
existence is beyond estimation.

In life, everybody enjoys God's blessings; even the really bad people. We're
all breathing fresh air, basking in sunshine, drinking cool water, savoring
tasty foods, listening to birds chirp, star gazing at night, throwing snow balls
at each other in winter, river rafting, fishing, snow skiing, tending gardens,
pruning shrubs, greeting friends during the holidays, spending days with
grandkids; and all that sort of thing. In the Bible's hell, there are no
blessings of any kind at all: only perpetual sadness, vexation, despair, and
want.

In hell's unruly society; it's reasonable to expect quarrels, bickering, hard
feelings, vendettas, rivalry, selfishness, insensitivity, irritation, aggravation,
and ugly words exchanged between people. Is there really any good reason
to be courteous and/or respect your fellow man's human rights in the Bible's
hell; or to be kind, forgiving, affable, genial, courteous, cordial, charitable,
altruistic, tolerant, generous, and patient? I was once discussing the
netherworld with a co-worker and he remarked: "Hell won't be so bad; I'll
have plenty of friends down there". Yes, he probably will have lots of friends
in hell; but I really don't think he should count on them being friendly.

And the din: think of the volume of noise down there with all the wailing and
sobbing, and the moaning, shrieking, yelping, howling, gnashing teeth, and
the constant complaining. I can only imagine how annoying it must be in hell
with its thousands and millions of people making all that kind of racket.

But just imagine bringing with you a craving for tobacco with none available.
Or longing for a cocktail with no liquor in sight. A desire for music, with no
way to produce it. A skill for writing, with no pen and paper. Yearning for a
walk out in nature, with no world to do it in.

People in hell will never again smell a sea breeze, sit in the shade of a tree,
take deep breaths of mountain-fresh air, play at sports, hear a bird chirp,
see a sunset, watch a lunar eclipse, jog in the park, strum a guitar, enjoy a
Christmas dinner with loved ones; nor make little pigs of themselves
gobbling barbecued spare ribs and corn on the 4th of July.

Sports and recreation are gone: no more World Series, no more Super Bowl,
no more Olympics, no more Las Vegas, no more Indian casinos, no more
lottery, no more Lego World, no more Sea World, no more NASCAR, no more
golf, no more surfing, et al.

No baths, no showers, no sleep, no TV, no radio, no iPods, no computers, no
Twitter, no texting, no FaceBook, no Instagram, no YouTube, no MySpace,
no internet, no clean sheets, no breakfast, no lunch, and no dinner. No
snacks, no gum, no candy, no flowers, no parks, no rivers, no snow, no
seasons, no picnics, no malls, no fast food, no trades, no careers, no trendy
fashions, no jewelry, no cosmetics, no concerts, no operas, and no hobbies;
absolutely nothing of this world that brings people the pleasures and the
satisfactions of just being alive.
_
 

Davy

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Enoch declared>> "So when He went to *preach* to the spirits in prison in Sheol/Hades, He did not go to offer salvation to the damned,"

So much for the Gospel according to Enoch! You are adding your own Gospel to Scripture. And what you have added is unbelievably disgusting! So when Christ went to Sheol to preach to those who had died before the flood, Jesus just went there to gloat; "Haw haw, giggle. You guys really screwed up, and now I am going to send you to Hell!! Haw, haw, giggle giggle!"

Maybe that is the Jesus you know, but totally foreign to the one I know!

Isaiah 42:7 is the prophecy that Jesus would lead the believers out of the darkness of the prison house (in Hades)...

Isa 42:6-7
6 I the LORD have called thee in righteousness, and will hold thine hand, and will keep thee, and give thee for a covenant of the people, for a light of the Gentiles;
7 To open the blind eyes, to bring out the prisoners from the prison, and them that sit in darkness out of the prison house.

KJV
 

Webers_Home

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Abraham replied: "Son, remember that in your lifetime you received your
good things" (Luke 16:25)

I should think that one of the negative aspects of hell is memory. How
people down there retain their memories sans the brain cells they left behind
with their corpse, I don't know; but they do, just as the rich man in that
story is able to experience thirst sans a flesh and blood tongue.

The older one gets, the more memories they accumulate, and many of those
memories haunt us with terrible regret. However, people in hell not only
have to cope with their bad memories, but also the good ones too, and I
should think it's remembering the good things they enjoyed in life that
makes their situation only worse in the heat.

If everybody was born and raised in hell; and never once ventured out; that
would be the only life they've ever known, so they wouldn't have a clue what
it's like to really live. For them the old maxim "Ignorance is bliss" would
certainly hold true.
_
 

Webers_Home

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Luke 16:27-30 . . I beg you, Father, that you send Lazarus to my father's
house-- for I have five brothers --that he may warn them, lest they also
come to this place of torment.

You know what can be even worse than going to hell? Your own children
following you there: and they trusted you.

Here's a sort of cute story I heard once. I don't know if it's true but I guess
it's plausible.

A farmer went out to the barn in the dead of night after a snowfall to sneak
a pull from his liquor bottle. Just as he got to the barn door he heard
something behind him. Turning, the farmer recognized his little boy coming
towards him. In amazement he asked the little guy how he ever managed to
find his way out to the barn in the dark. His son replied: It was easy; I
walked in your footsteps.

One can only imagine the anguish that parents in the netherworld must feel
knowing that they inadvertently raised their children in an ideology that led
them down the road to hell and all the while sincerely believing themselves
doing the right thing. For some families, the only thing they have to look
forward to in the afterlife is a sad reunion in fire and despair.
_
 
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Webers_Home

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Something I've been curious about for some time now is why the rich man in
Luke's narrative arrived in a place of flame and torment while the poor man
was taken to a place of comfort.

Well; one thing I strongly suspect is that at the time of the incident recorded
in Luke 16:19-31, Christ was not yet born in the land of Israel; so then,
there was not yet a gospel to believe in the New Testament.

Abraham mentions the Old Testament's law and its prophets; which
apparently the rich man had not studied, nor taken seriously; consequently
he was impious and a complete failure at complying with the covenant that
Moses' people agreed upon with God as per Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers, and
Deuteronomy. Well, if so; then that was a fatal error.

Deut 27:26 . . Cursed is the man who does not uphold the words of this
law by carrying them out.

The grammatical tense of that curse is present tense rather than future,
indicating that the curse is instant, i.e. no delay and no waiting period; ergo:
scofflaws are walking dead men; and if they cross over into the next life as
dead men, then their fate will be just as solidly sealed as the rich man's fate.
_