Have You Ceased Praying for Judgment and Justice?

[HammerStone]

The author beings by discussing the Psalms, and how many of them contain prayers of vengeance and petitions for God to destroy an enemy. As I watched AD:The Bible Continues last night, the episode with Ananias and Sapphira stirred my heart to think along these lines: have we lost the OT picture of a God of Justice? The dialogue chosen for Sapphira was particularly striking, because she simply begged the questioned - hadn't we done what was prudent?

In hedging their bets - and how many of us American Christian do this daily - they had disobeyed God. Have we lost praying for God to set things right?

Enter this excellent little column by Peter Leithart, which I quote in part here:

Soon after John witnesses the martyrs under the altar, he sees incense smoke rising to heaven mixed with the “prayers of the saints,” that is, the prayers of the martyrs for vindication and vengeance. An angel fills the censer with fire and coals and throws it to the earth, causing thunder, lightning, and an earthquake (Revelation 8). We live in a world where ISIS warriors behead Christians and release the film. We need an earthquake, and we should pray for it: “How long, holy and true, will you refrain from judging and avenging their blood? How long before you do some judging to proveyou are Judge?”

Read: http://www.firstthings.com/web-exclusives/2015/04/teach-us-to-pray

 

[HeartSearcher]

Well God has both a very loving caring and merciful nature but he also has one of wrath and judgement. in the OT his wrath and judgement was very evident but in the NT all we mainly see is his loving caring and merciful nature. The believers in the OT didn't have the covenant the NT believers did and so things were obviously different, I don't have it in my heart to pray for judgement or warth I am more concerned about their salvation plus Jesus himself said to love your enemies so i take his words to heart

 

[pom2014]

When I pray I do it with it be the will of God. if God wills justice, then it's his call not mine.

I'm not on the throne so I don't tell him what to do.

 

[HammerStone]

When I pray I do it with it be the will of God. if God wills justice, then it's his call not mine.

I'm not on the throne so I don't tell him what to do.

Were the Psalmists, likely including King David, in error then?

 

[pom2014]

In scripture there are few passages that were not done by the will of God.

So its like comparing yourself to those that have direct inspiration to the common man.

If you'd like to think you're on par with the prophets and Gods favourite David, then by all means do so.

Myself I'll not venture into that area.

 

[JimParker]

The author beings by discussing the Psalms, and how many of them contain prayers of vengeance and petitions for God to destroy an enemy. As I watched AD:The Bible Continues last night, the episode with Ananias and Sapphira stirred my heart to think along these lines: have we lost the OT picture of a God of Justice? The dialogue chosen for Sapphira was particularly striking, because she simply begged the questioned - hadn't we done what was prudent?

In hedging their bets - and how many of us American Christian do this daily - they had disobeyed God. Have we lost praying for God to set things right?

Enter this excellent little column by Peter Leithart, which I quote in part here:


Read: http://www.firstthings.com/web-exclusives/2015/04/teach-us-to-pray

<<The dialogue chosen for Sapphira>>

That was not the dialogue in the scriptures. Ananias and Sapphira were struck dead because they conspired to lie to the Holy Spirit (God) and had done so in a manner in which the entire church would have become aware of their deceit, thus setting a bad example.

There would have been no problem if they had said that they sold the property and were giving a portion of the proceeds to the church. But they chose to intentionally give the appearance of giving the entire proceeds to the church and God made them an object lesson for the Church. Almighty God is not deceived; approach Him with fear and trembling for nothing unclean, such as the overflow of a deceitful heart, may enter into His presence.

Act 5:1-5 But a man named Anani'as with his wife Sapphi'ra sold a piece of property, and with his wife's knowledge he kept back some of the proceeds, and brought only a part and laid it at the apostles' feet.
But Peter said, "Anani'as, why has Satan filled your heart to lie to the Holy Spirit and to keep back part of the proceeds of the land? While it remained unsold, did it not remain your own? And after it was sold, was it not at your disposal? How is it that you have contrived this deed in your heart? You have not lied to men but to God."
When Anani'as heard these words, he fell down and died. And great fear came upon all who heard of it.


As for wanting justice; no thanks. I am guilty and deserve a devil's hell. God offers mercy to all who will repent. (And repent, and repent, and repent, just like David) I pick door number 2. (Mercy)

Praise God that He is merciful and forgiving. (Otherwise, He wouldn't have bothered sending the Word to become flesh, to be crucified and rise again, and to free mankind from the consequence of sin.)

So, when you pray for justice, realize that it is justice for ALL (you included) rather than mercy for all. (you included again)

 

[HammerStone]

In scripture there are few passages that were not done by the will of God.

So its like comparing yourself to those that have direct inspiration to the common man.

If you'd like to think you're on par with the prophets and Gods favourite David, then by all means do so.

Myself I'll not venture into that area.

And there's the common reply when theology fits certain verses but not the others. I find the Psalms quite troubling at times, because they sound mean, vengeful, and often melodramatic. That said, are there not legitimate grievances espoused in them? At what point do we pray that God will set things aright?

For what it's worth, it's not about being on par, it's about them being an example. If you start playing buffet Christianity, then it becomes real easy to construct your own plate.

That was not the dialogue in the scriptures. Ananias and Sapphira were struck dead because they conspired to lie to the Holy Spirit (God) and had done so in a manner in which the entire church would have become aware of their deceit, thus setting a bad example.

There would have been no problem if they had said that they sold the property and were giving a portion of the proceeds to the church. But they chose to intentionally give the appearance of giving the entire proceeds to the church and God made them an object lesson for the Church. Almighty God is not deceived; approach Him with fear and trembling for nothing unclean, such as the overflow of a deceitful heart, may enter into His presence.

And this was true in the technical sense, but was it not evident by attempting to lie to the Holy Spirit (a bad idea), that Ananias and Sapphira thought they they could gain something from withholding? I agree it makes a bit of a leap in terms of the dialogue, but the point is that the couple thought that they could lie to God and ultimately do a better job with the money they kept back. I don't see that as far from the motive.

As for wanting justice; no thanks. I am guilty and deserve a devil's hell. God offers mercy to all who will repent. (And repent, and repent, and repent, just like David) I pick door number 2. (Mercy)

Praise God that He is merciful and forgiving. (Otherwise, He wouldn't have bothered sending the Word to become flesh, to be crucified and rise again, and to free mankind from the consequence of sin.)

So, when you pray for justice, realize that it is justice for ALL (you included) rather than mercy for all. (you included again)

Of course, but my obvious rejoinder here is that it would already be somewhat understood by the Christian as to what she deserved. This thread is not intended to be a vacuum, so please don't approach it that way. This would be captured for David in verses like Psalm 113:1. My point is merely that the complexity of the Psalms should offer us a greater understanding of passages like Revelation 6:9-11. This is far from meaning that we deserve justice.

 

[pom2014]

Then let me ask what is the point to prayer for something that you either know God is doing or that God will do on his own time?

What's your ROI?

 

[DogLady19]

Wow, this is the very topic discussed by my pastor this weekend... and he used Revelations 8 to make his point!

I don't think we should stop praying for justice or judgment. My primary prayer is for those who practice evil in the world to come to repentance, but if not, I pray that God will avenge His own!

The persecution of Christians today evokes the same response in God that it did during the days of Ananias and Sapphira... People may not be falling dead where they stand, but they are judged just the same...

I have been watching the AD movie series lately too, and I appreciate the bringing to life the historical context in which Jesus' apostles fought to defend their faith. The scene with Ananias and Sapphira really disappointed me. It is clear in Acts 5 that they were stricken by God because there was no need to lie. They didn't have to give any money at all. But to lie and say they gave it all was a sin of pride. In the movie, it was implied that they were required to give it all, and God struck them dead for holding back some of their wealth. I didn't like that change of meaning and context. It changes the story to a tyrannical God instead of a God of righteousness.

Were the Psalmists, likely including King David, in error then?

No. David's prayer were not in error... To pray God's will, however, requires us to KNOW God's will... and we are supposed to, as Christians, seek His will. Once we know it, we are supposed to be specific in our prayers. It is obvious that is God's will since we have so many examples of it in the Bible.

A good example of this is in the story of Jesus in Jericho from Matthew 20. Two blind men walked up to Jesus and said, "Be merciful to us!" (vague prayer)... Jesus made them get specific by asking them "What do you want me to do?" and they answered "Restore our eyesight." Only then was their prayer granted.