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Featured Hebrew has no Vowels?

Discussion in 'Bible Study Forum' started by bbyrd009, Nov 11, 2018.

  1. bbyrd009

    bbyrd009 Groper

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    "
    The oft repeated rumor has it that Biblical Hebrew has no vowels, and any now existing vowels were added later. This is incorrect. The great success of the Hebrew language lies precisely in the Hebrew invention of vowel notation. This invention was made around the time of king David (roughly 1000 BC, at the dawn of the Iron Age), and it gave ordinary people access to vast amounts of information..." The amazing name Masoretes: meaning and etymology
     
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  2. Episkopos

    Episkopos Well-Known Member

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    Not so much. The Masoretes developed the Niqqud (vowel pointing) around 1000 AD (not BC)

    The strength of the Hebrew language is in the imagery of the letters...they tell a story within a word, (with pictographs) and with the truth they convey.
     
    Last edited: Nov 11, 2018
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  3. bbyrd009

    bbyrd009 Groper

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    ya, that is what i always understood too. It gets into that
     
    Last edited: Nov 11, 2018
  4. 101G

    101G Well-Known Member

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    yes, the Hebrew language is imagery, and one of the best missed ones is right in Genesis, the aleph and the Tav, or the First and the Last, or the begining or the end, or the Alpha and the Omega, who is JESUS.

    The Aleph and Tav תא within the Torah
    The Aleph and the Tav תא found within Torah

    or you might can get a better look at it here

    Hebrew OT - Transliteration - Holy Name KJV
    http://www.qbible.com/hebrew-old-testament/genesis/1.html


    JESUS is found right in Genesis 1:1
     
  5. Episkopos

    Episkopos Well-Known Member

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    Actually I did a typo...it should say 1000 AD
     
  6. Vexatious

    Vexatious Active Member

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    Is you intent to show us a very stupid article? You didn't give is the reason you posted the article. King David never used "biblical Hebrew", if you mean Babylonian script, as the fake Jews use today, which most people think of as Hebrew. Either way, in ancient times, neither had vowels, aside from maybe an occasional effort by an author to avoid confusion by using non-standard marks. E.g. Gd = Good? God? Gide?
     
  7. Enoch111

    Enoch111 Well-Known Member

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    You quotation is SELF-CONTRADICTORY. The very fact that vowels were introduced later confirms that Hebrew originally did not have vowels.
     
  8. bbyrd009

    bbyrd009 Groper

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    um, for the Masoretes? the article agrees with the 1st century era you first forwarded, but i guess it turns out they weren't like this club that we have in our minds anyway?
     
  9. bbyrd009

    bbyrd009 Groper

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    you are invited to challenge any of the assertions in the article ladies, i do realize it is quite a departure from what we are taught. Hopefully most of your objections are the standard ones--looks like anyway--and they are addressed in the article i guess
     
    Last edited: Nov 12, 2018
  10. bbyrd009

    bbyrd009 Groper

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    that too i guess, but more than that Hebrew is more about function than appearances?
    things are called after their function rather than their appearance, more like a Native American name iow?

    i guess you would have to point right to it, the first link looked pretty interesting though!
     
  11. 101G

    101G Well-Known Member

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    first thanks for the response.

    second, the imagery, or the apperance describes the "FUNCTION" example Ezekiel's wheels.
     
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  12. bbyrd009

    bbyrd009 Groper

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    "So no, the Masoretes did not add previously non-existing vowels to the Hebrew Bible, but left us notations about what the Hebrew words may have sounded like (namely "David" in stead of "Dod", and so on)."

    "The name Masorete(s) obviously doesn't occur in the Bible itself because the Masoretes, the folks who added pronunciation symbols (the Masorah) to the traditional Hebrew text of the Bible, began to be active in the second half of the first millennium after Christ. Their work and intentions, however, are of enormous importance to students of the Bible because:"

    "The name Masoretes is like the epithet Explorers; it describes a group of completely different people who shared one particular quality without being unified by that quality. The Masoretes were Hebrew scholars who worked over the span of a few centuries and in a geographic area ranging from Babylon to Palestine and from Europe to Yemen. These Masoretes were part of the larger Hebrew academia..."

    "The formal Hebrew Bible of today is based on the Leningrad Codex, which is a Tiberian Masoretic Text of 1009 AD, which is a copy of a text that was produced by the Ben-Asher family, and they were Masoretes living and working in Tiberias in Galilee..."

    "
    Then, the Ben-Ashers were not the only ones working with that now so famous Masoretic system, because the Ben-Ashers were at much documented odds with another Tiberian family, namely the Ben-Naphtali family, and that's just one competitor we know about, working within the same system.

    A whole other famous Masoretic system was the Babylonian system, or rather: were the Babylonian systems, which consisted of a simple and a complex one and at least six more identifiable styles. A third system (or again, rather a cluster of various systems) is called "Land of Israel" because it's referred to in some 11th century European text that discusses the diacritics of the phrase ארץ ישראל (erets yisrael), meaning land of Israel. It's not clear where this particular cluster of systems originated but "most people believe that the Land of Israel system is the earliest system" (says Joel M. Hoffman in In The Beginning).

    A fourth system, again with internal variations, uses Tiberian symbols but writes the Land of Israel system. A fifth system was developed in Yemen, and a sixth system was developed by scholars of the East Syriac language area..."
     
  13. bbyrd009

    bbyrd009 Groper

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    hopefully your initial objections have been allayed now?
     
  14. Vexatious

    Vexatious Active Member

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    Even with vowel marks added by Antichrists in 1000 AD (not BC) to the Hebrew Bible, we're still all but clueless of how Biblical Hebrew was pronounced. Hebrew had been a dead language for 2000 years. And, even living languages continually change in pronunciation. But, mere sane observation like this is no match for the pretribber who loves to mutilate and judas-ize Jesus' name and call him something like Yeshua, because for some stupid or satanic reason they believe that's how people pronounced Jesus' name 2000 years ago (and, even though there's not one ancient record of Jesus being called anything like that). Why don't pretribbers judas-ize the word "jew"? Hint: the Devil is in the details.
     
  15. Episkopos

    Episkopos Well-Known Member

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    The pronunciation is not important. What is important is the words and their meaning. Hence the reason that Hebrew has no vowels.
     
  16. bbyrd009

    bbyrd009 Groper

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    ha, i thought i'd be confronting a wall here this AM, hmm

    i'm not necessarily comfortable with many of the characterizations for instance, but i appreciate that the author makes plain when they are riffing v when they are imparting facts, and i am not able to catch him out imparting facts so far.

    i am finding it quite illuminating that YHWH turns out to be the Hebrew vowels, even if i don't quite get the whole picture yet myself, i'm just now figuring out why there would be two "H's" for instance, and etc
     
  17. Episkopos

    Episkopos Well-Known Member

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    Hebrew is a world apart from other languages. By the 2 "H's" you are referring to the 2 "heys".

    The Hebrew Hey means "behold"...as in something that is presented.
    The Hebrew Youd means "hand"
    The Hebrew Vav means "nail" or tent peg.

    So then the formula for the name of God can be..."a hand behold, a nail behold".

    יהוה
    When Jesus showed His hand and side to Thomas, he replied..."my Lord and my God."
     
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  18. bbyrd009

    bbyrd009 Groper

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    ha, well that is your interp wadr, in English maybe, yes, but tbh i think even you know better in the original
    at this concept, too

    it would be nice to actually have a conversation with you at some point though, i do hope you consider it
     
  19. Deborah_

    Deborah_ Well-Known Member

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    In my opinion, the article is a load of rubbish. It sounds impressive, but is a mish-mash of truth, half-truth and pure invention. I note that the author doesn't identify him/herself, which always raises suspicions...

    Yes - there are some "vowel letters" in Hebrew - but why should their addition make it any easier for a native Hebrew speaker to read? There's a very good reason why Hebrew script doesn't have vowels - in any Hebrew word, the vowels are not constant. By leaving the vowels out, the basic word is actually easier to recognise!

    And the Name of God is not "made up only of vowel symbols". It can't be, because all Hebrew words have to start with a consonant! (That's one reason why the 'silent' consonants, aleph and ayin, exist). And anyone who claims that the Name of God is not introduced in the Bible until I Samuel has obviously never read the Bible!
     
  20. bbyrd009

    bbyrd009 Groper

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    those may be interpreted that way, yes, but you are aware how curious a choice of terms that is in the original, right?
     
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