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Hell Is Not The Lake of Fire

Discussion in 'Christian Debate Forum' started by veteran, Mar 31, 2012.

  1. veteran

    veteran New Member

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    Got a major falsehood being pushed here on the Forum brethren. That falsehood is how some are purposefully trying to confuse the abode of the wicked called "hell" in many Scriptures, with the one-time destruction event called the "lake of fire" (Rev.20:14-15). They are two separate and distinct things per Scripture.


    The KJV translators used the word "hell" for several different words in their translation. One must use a Greek Lexicon to know what each example is talking about.


    'geena' - Here are the KJV NT Scriptures where 'geena' was rendered as "hell":

    Matt.5:22; Matt.5:29; Matt.5:30; Matt.10:28; Matt.18:9; Matt.23:15; Matt.23:33; Mark 9:43; Mark 9:45; Mark 9:47; Luke 12:5; James 3:6.

    Everyone of those examples using 'geena' is about the future one-time "lake of fire" event. They are not about the heavenly abode of the wicked also called "hell" in several NT Scriptures.

    The word 'geena' comes from the Hebrew for the 'valley of Hinnom' per OT history. What was that valley about? The valley of Hinnon was located outside Jerusalem's south wall. It was a place of ancient Molech worship, with children sacrificed in the fire (2 Kings 23:10; 2 Chron.28:3). Judah at Jerusalem once fell into that falseness (Jeremiah 7:30-31). God said He never commanded them to do such a thing, nor did such a thing as burning the children in fire come into His heart.

    That valley of Hinnom was also called Tophet. In Jer.7:32, God said one day that place will no longer be called Tophet, nor the valley of Hinnom, but instead "the valley of slaughter", the carcases shall be for meat for the fowls, that put for a final destruction of the wicked, I.E., the "lake of fire" event!

    In Isaiah 30:33, God says that area of Tophet is ordained of old, for the king it is prepared (Satan), and He has made it deep and large, the pile thereof is fire and much wood, and the breath of The LORD kindles it. That's about the final destruction of Satan and the wicked, the "lake of fire" of Revelation. It represents a one-time utter destruction of whoever goes into it.

    Thus 'geena' is NOT... the heavenly abode of the wicked that exists right now, where the angels that sinned are held in chains of darkness until that day of 'geena' (lake of fire, Tophet, Hinnom).



    'haides' - Here's the NT Scripture where that Greek word 'haides' was also rendered as "hell" by the KJV translators: Matt.11:23; Matt.16:18; Luke 10:15; Luke 16:23; Acts 2:27; Acts 2:31; Rev.1:18; Rev.6:8; Rev.20:13; Rev.20:14.

    I call your attention especially to the Rev.6:8, Rev.20:13 and 14 verses about the word "hell" as the Greek word haides. That's also where the 'rich man' of Luke 16 found himself after he had died, our Lord Jesus speaking that.

    The ancient Greek mythology had a god of the underworld they called 'Hades'. His dominion was also derived from that name (haidou and thus haides). His dominion per that mythology included the underworld, the air, sea, and the earth. Tartarus was a specific place in Hades of a dark dungeon located in the underworld. That's the original pagan Greek concept of Hades. It is not exactly the same Bible concept of the heavenly prison for the wicked, but it is similar.

    In the Acts 2:25-27 quotes from the Old Testament Psalms, the Greek 'haides' ("hell" there) is put for the same thing as Hebrew 'sheol', the place of the dead. Psalms 86:13 is using that same concept of 'haides' of a lower dark abode like Greek Tartarus, a dungeon prison abode for the wicked after death. Even though Ps.86 is using the Hebrew word 'sheol' for that place, we can be certain it means more than just a literal grave out in a cemetary somewhere. Much of Jewish tradition does not believe an actual place in the heavenly for the wicked dead really exists. They believe mostly there's only a literal grave where the dead go, like in a cemetary. In other words per their view, all your loved ones that have died in Christ are still out in the local backyard cemetary, literally.

    The fact that our Lord Jesus and Apostles per the New Testament would include a concept from Greek 'haides' means there is... some of it being true, and people when they die do not just literally wait it out in a literal earthen grave. Christ showed Lazarus and the rich man having continued life after their flesh bodies had died and were buried, as He did also in the Matt.10:28 verse, showing us that our 'soul' does continue after flesh death, and that the soul's existence is not dependent upon one's flesh body. Paul revealed this concept also in 2 Corinthains 5.

    With Christ going to preach to the "spirits in prison" after His resurrection (1 Pet.3), this concept of an abode of the wicked in the heavenly dimension is further shown. Isaiah 14 about Lucifer being cast down to the sides of the pit, and then... others looking upon him is further proof that even the Old Testament Scriptures had covered this concept of 'haides' also as a real holding place for the wicked in the heavenly dimension.



    'tartaroo' - 2 Peter 2:4.

    Peter only used the Greek term 'tartaroo' for the abode of the wicked, which the KJV translators also translated as "hell".

    Apostle Peter used this 'tartaroo' like the Greek idea of Tartarus, a deep dark dungeon in the underworld for the dead. Peter used that for the angels that sinned, held in chains of darkness until the Judgment. That's a huge clue that an abode in the heavenly dimension for the wicked really exists. No one can simply claim that place is some literal grave out in the backyard, because those angels were not born flesh and never died in the flesh. They are held in chains of darkness in the deepest depths of haides, being reserved for the future "second death", the death of one's spirit and soul.


    Per all that, we need to be careful how we read the KJV word "hell", because the KJV translators did not give the full meaning of those different words in the Greek NT manuscripts. The traditions of the Jews pushed on this Forum are here to try and get us Christians away from understanding those differences.
     
  2. TruthSeeker2012

    TruthSeeker2012 New Member

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    How can anyone claim to love Jesus and then claim He will burn and burn the lost in total and horrible torture and agony forever where they can never sleep or die. They will live in constant agony forever.

    "hell" is from Hebrew Sheol and Greek Hades, Gehenna and Tartaroo. "Hell" is final place of wicked [Gehenna] and 2nd death where fire will come down from heaven from God and it will burn them up! this will be on the earth as a lake of fire then it will go out! Then Jesus will re-create a new earth.

    Immortality is the key. And only the saved will get it! Hence, the lost wont get it and will DIE and not LIVE in some fire. If people were to burn in fire forever, that would mean they are given immortality as well, but this contradicts 1Cor 15:53! And only the saved will have access to the tree of life in heaven! The lost wont and so hence, cannot live forever in some fire

    Who has immortality? The Bible says only God does. But at the resurrection the saved receive it as a gift - 1Cor 15:53. And do the lost receive immortality? y/n? Answer: NO! So without immortality, they will die and not live in some eternal fire! Only the saved will receive immortality and access to the tree of life!
    Without immortality and without access to the tree of life, the lost will DIE and DEATH means death and is the cessation of life. Read John 3:36, it says without Jesus, there is NO LIFE! Now that means death! But Satan said to Eve that death means life! See how Satan has tricked many with what he told Eve? Read Gen 3:4-5

    The saved will once again gain access to the Tree of Life that Adam and Eve lost access to. And the Tree of life will be the key to living forever in heaven. Without access to the Tree of Life, the lost cannot live forever in some "hellfire".

    To live forever you need access to the TREE OF LIFE! And this will be in the new kingdom, and there will be no tree of life in some fire, so how can the lost live without immortality and no access to the tree of life? Think about it!

    I think John 3:36 sums this up really well. Without Jesus they will NOT see life! Hence, they will DIE and be no more! Sleep in death forever.

    Some people like to teach that death is life. But God never taught that, but Satan did to Eve. And they teach that the lost will go through the 2nd death but that death means LIFE! Thats exactly a perfect reflection of the Serpents words to Eve! Well truth is death and the 2nd death means DEATH and not some life in some fire.

    Do you agree that the only way to live forever is to have access to the TREE OF LIFE? Do you admit that is what God taught?

    If you line the Bible up on a particular topic with all relevant things spoken about it, you ONLY EVER come out one way

    Were it not for the fact of the resurrection (1 Cor 15:18) the death that every human being experiences would be the termination of their existence! The lost will die and sleep forever and be NO MORE! [Oba 1:16]

    God bless.
     
  3. HeRoseFromTheDead

    HeRoseFromTheDead Not So Advanced Member

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    You are both false witnesses regarding this. Repent of your lies.
     
  4. TruthSeeker2012

    TruthSeeker2012 New Member

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    You have accused me of being a false witness, so I ask you HeRoseFromTheDead, show me anything I have taught that is in error, using God's Holy Scripture.

    Secondly, can you explain and contextualize all these verses which teach the lost will perish and DIE and not have eternal life in a fire:

    Suffer "death" (Romans 6:23) , suffer "destruction" (Job 21:30), "shall perish" (Psalm 37:20), will "burn" up [Not a root or a branch will be left to them.] (Malachi 4:1), Malachi 4:3 "Then you will trample on the wicked; they will be ashes under the soles of your feet on the day when I act,” says the LORD Almighty.", "shall be destroyed together" (Psalm 37:38), the wicked shall not be (Psa 37:10), will "consume away" (Psalm 37:20), "shall be cut off" (Psalm 37:9), "shall be slain" (Psalm 62:3), God will "destroy" them (Psalm 145:20), "fire will devour them." (Psalm 21:9) They shall be as though they had not been.(Oba 1 16), they shall be as nothing; and they that strive with thee shall perish (Isa 41:11), the wicked be no more (Psa 104:35), the wicked no more (Pro 10:25)

    There are about 182 clear verses for the destruction of the lost which I want cover with you after you explain all the verses above first.

    Because man is mortal and because eternal life is given only to the redeemed, the unsaved forfeit their lives altogether and SHALL DIE, proving Satan's lie in Genesis 3:4.

    God bless.
     
  5. veteran

    veteran New Member

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    If it were true that I'm speaking falsehood about this, then why does God's Word reveal that the abode of "hell" will be cast into... the "lake of fire"? Duh!

    Rev 20:14
    14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
    (KJV)


    The word "hell" there is Greek hadies, and the "lake of fire" in the Greek is exactly as it is in the English there.
     
  6. TruthSeeker2012

    TruthSeeker2012 New Member

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    I have always been able to use that verse, Rev 20:14 to contradict the "eternal hellfire preachers!

    Hades cannot be the place of hell-fire since the KJV clearly says that hell itself (Hades) will be cast in to the lake of fire! How can this be so? If Hades (hell in the KJV) is fire how can it be cast into itself?

    So as I have said before, the obvious meaning of the text is that "death and hell [the grave, the place of the dead] were cast into the lake of fire", that is all that is a reminder of sin will be exterminated!

    God bless.
     
  7. Rach1370

    Rach1370 New Member

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    Perhaps it's just me, but I really can't see what kind of edification this discussion has. It seems to have dissolved into insults and nit picking. Can we maybe strive to remember Jesus, His love and grace? If we can't live in His grace right now, both for ourselves and all the others around us, does it really matter what the details of the afterlife are? It just seems to me that you are all arguing about details that are already set (whatever they may be), and are completely in the hands of our Saviour. The things we do have control over, how we live and spread the gospel are right now, and it seems to me that those things have been checked back at the door.
    Can we have a little more brotherhood here?
     
  8. TruthSeeker2012

    TruthSeeker2012 New Member

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    Eze 18:4 For every living soul belongs to me, the father as well as the son--both alike belong to me. The soul who sins is the one who will die
    Eze 18:20 The soul who sins is the one who will die. The son will not share the guilt of the father, nor will the father share the guilt of the son. The righteousness of the righteous man will be credited to him, and the wickedness of the wicked will be charged against him.
    Eze 18:21 "But if a wicked man turns away from all the sins he has committed and keeps all my decrees and does what is just and right, he will surely live; he will not die.

    God's Word is clear, the lost will DIE and not LIVE forever in some "hellfire".

    And read John 3:36, it says without Jesus, there is NO LIFE! Now that means death! But Satan said to Eve that death means life! See how Satan has tricked many with what he told Eve? Read Gen 3:4-5

    God bless.
     
  9. Rach1370

    Rach1370 New Member

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    And how is your insistence in this bringing others or yourself closer to God? I'm not saying your wrong, please don't see this as me trying to prove you wrong, all I'm saying is this: you've made your point, stated your case, given verses to back up your claim. You've rebutted others and shown how you think they are wrong. So what are you or anyone else gaining by going on and on, apart from stirring up anger and frustration? How is that furthering the gospel and making much of God, bringing glory to Him? I can't see that the last 2 pages have had much to do with any of that.
    Remember, God is more important than winning points in an argument!
     
  10. goodshepard55

    goodshepard55 New Member

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    Well said Rach....Amen
     
  11. Strat

    Strat New Member

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    You are applying your logic and reason to God,how can you do that ? the term "lost" implies that there is some degree of innocence or lack of responsability on the part of the condemned while the Bible teaches that rejection of the gospel is a willful act,so often people will say who are we to judge yet some have no problem judging God himself and applying their standards to him...burning forever in Hell is certainly an awful thing but just becasuse it offends our human reason and understanding doesn't obligate God to do away with it.

    The Nave's Topical Bible has this in regard to the"lost it says "The Lost,see Wicked,punishment of" modern Christianity seeks to improve the image of those who reject Jesus by portraying them as being poor confused individuals who want to do the right thing but can't find the right way,and it logically follows that they don't actually deserve the punishment God has ordained.The Bible teaches that we all have a choice and that those who reject God are "wicked" not lost and confused,those who receive Jesus and the gospel were wicked before they made the choice to receive the gospel and they still sinj but their sin is covered by the blood of Jesus and they are called rightous...its all in the choice,and while it may look good or feel good to stand in between God and those who reject him and attempt to diminish the severity of their fate it is a useless exercise.

    The best way to deal with Hell and the lake of fire is to accept the work of Jesus and follow him,look forward and not to and fro or behind concerning your self with what others are doing in regard to the choice we all must make...Hell is not an issue for the saved,the lake of fire has no consequence for those whose names are written in the book of life.
     
  12. Foreigner

    Foreigner New Member

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    Is any sinner at the end of time REALLY going to say, "I am going to the Lake of Fire and not hell? Sweeeet!"
     
  13. Strat

    Strat New Member

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    Thanks for making my point with fewer words,it is a pointless debate with no value or benefit to the saved or unsaved.
     
  14. TruthSeeker2012

    TruthSeeker2012 New Member

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    I used to believe in eternal hellfire for 33 years...but once I studied the Hebrew and Koine Greek I renounced my belief in eternal hellfire and embraced the truth that the lost will perish and be destroyed, and not live forever in some fire! Once I learned the truth about this topic, I fell deeply in love with God when I learned that He is not a cruel revengeful monster who will torture the lost forever. The "eternal hellfire" lie has driven millions of people to hate and reject God. But once people learn the truth, they fall in love with God.

    Immortality is the key. And only the saved will get it! Hence, the lost wont get it and will DIE and not LIVE in some fire. If people were to burn in fire forever, that would mean they are given immortality as well, but this contradicts 1Cor 15:53! And only the saved will have access to the tree of life in heaven! The lost wont and so hence, cannot live forever in some fire

    Who has immortality? The Bible says only God does. But at the resurrection the saved receive it as a gift - 1Cor 15:53. And do the lost receive immortality? y/n? Answer: NO! So without immortality, they will die and not live in some eternal fire! Only the saved will receive immortality and access to the tree of life!
    Without immortality and without access to the tree of life, the lost will DIE and DEATH means death and is the cessation of life. Read John 3:36, it says without Jesus, there is NO LIFE! Now that means death! But Satan said to Eve that death means life! See how Satan has tricked many with what he told Eve? Read Gen 3:4-5

    Unknowing to them, the people who teach eternal hellfire, believe Satan's first lie, and at judgement day when they learn they had believed Satan's lie about eternal hellfire, they will mourn and cry and be shocked!

    God bless.
     
  15. biggandyy

    biggandyy I am here to help...

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    Matt. 25:46
    "Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life."
     
  16. TruthSeeker2012

    TruthSeeker2012 New Member

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    The Koine Greek word "aionios" is used in Matthew 25:46 and has been translated forever and ever! But in Koine Greek it doesn't mean endless at all! The term "for ever, eternal, everlasting" as used in the Bible, means simply a period of time, limited or unlimited. It is used 56 times in the Bible in connection with things that have already ended.

    The Greek word for everlasting or eternal is the adjective "aionios" derived from the noun "aion" which means an "age" or "era". The word itself leaves the time limit of the age undefined.

    (Aion, Aionios) 42 times rendered "eternal" and 25 times "everlasting"

    The runaway slave "onesimus" (philemon 15) was to serve his master "for ever"(aionios). In Jonah 2:6, "for ever" means "three days and nights." (See also Jonah 1:17). In Deuteronomy 23:3, this means "10 generations." In the case of man, this means "as long as he lives" or "until death." (See 1 Samuel 1:22,28; Exodus 21:6; Psalm 48:14.) So the lost will burn in the fire as long as they live, or until death. This fiery punishment for sin will vary according to the degree of sins for each individual, but after the punishment, the fire will go out.

    And in the Hebrew we find the same English translation problems. Read about the city of Edom in Isa 34:6-11 It says Edom was to burn forever and never be quenched, the smoke thereof shall go up for ever! But its NOT burning today and in fact in verse 11 it says it will be occupied again after this so called forever FIRE! The problem lies in English translations, and eternal and forever and ever, does not always mean endless in the Bible.

    Is EDOM burning today? NO! English translation says forever, but the original language it doesn't say or mean forever as you can clearly see that the next verse says it will be occupied again. How is that possible if v10 was to be taken literally as eternal fire etc.

    Immortality is the key. And only the saved will get it! Hence, the lost wont get it and will DIE and not LIVE in some fire. If people were to burn in fire forever, that would mean they are given immortality as well, but this contradicts 1Cor 15:53! And only the saved will have access to the tree of life in heaven! The lost wont and so hence, cannot live forever in some fire.

    God bless.
     
  17. biggandyy

    biggandyy I am here to help...

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    aionios is the Greek word that translates as eternal. There is no other Greek word that can refer to an eternal period of time.

    Walvoord (following Buis, The Doctrine of Eternal Punishment. Presbyterian and Reformed, 1957.) counts 66 occurrences of aionios in the NT [Crockett.4VH, 23]. 51 of these refer to the unending happiness of the righteous. 2 refer to the duration of God in His glory. 6 indicate an endless amount of time in other contexts, and 7 appear in reference to the punishment of the wicked.
     
  18. TruthSeeker2012

    TruthSeeker2012 New Member

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    biggandyy, remember something very very important. Aionios has been used in many places to events and things that have ENDED, so it does not mean ETERNAL as a generalized and universal rule. It all comes down to context.

    There are classical Greek words that do stand for endless, but such words aren't used in the New Testament.

    The only reason the redeemed will LIVE forever is that they are given IMMORTALITY as a free gift, but the Bible never says the lost will be given it, hence, they WILL SURELY DIE and Satan's lie will eventually be exposed as a lie when Satan said, "You shall SURELY NEVER DIE".

    God bless.
     
  19. Strat

    Strat New Member

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    If an unsaved person were to read this i suspect they would come away wondering if any word in the bible means what it says...Matt 25,26 was quoted containg the the phrases eternal punishment and eternal life...ETERNAL life last for ever while ETERNAL punishment is temporary....no wonder so many mock and ridicule modern Christianity.
     
  20. veteran

    veteran New Member

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    Everlasting destruction is everlasting, and that's really how it's meant per the OT prophets. Those who refuse to address those witnesses within the Old Testament can mock all they want, but all it shows is that they really don't care what ALL of God's Word teaches about it as a whole, just so long as they can keep their pet doctrines of men. God's Word does not contradict itself, thus Scripture like the following MUST be reconciled with the NT Scripture to discover how God actually meant it...


    Ps 37:9-11
    9 For evildoers shall be cut off: but those that wait upon the LORD, they shall inherit the earth.
    10 For yet a little while, and the wicked shall not be: yea, thou shalt diligently consider his place, and it shall not be.
    11 But the meek shall inherit the earth; and shall delight themselves in the abundance of peace.
    (KJV)

    Ps 37:20
    20 But the wicked shall perish, and the enemies of the LORD shall be as the fat of lambs: they shall consume; into smoke shall they consume away.
    (KJV)

    Ps 37:35-36
    35 I have seen the wicked in great power, and spreading himself like a green bay tree.
    36 Yet he passed away, and, lo, he was not: yea, I sought him, but he could not be found.
    (KJV)

    Prov 10:30
    30 The righteous shall never be removed: but the wicked shall not inhabit the earth.
    (KJV)

    Ezek 28:18
    18 Thou hast defiled thy sanctuaries by the multitude of thine iniquities, by the iniquity of thy traffick; therefore will I bring forth a fire from the midst of thee, it shall devour thee, and I will bring thee to ashes upon the earth in the sight of all them that behold thee.
    (KJV)

    Ps 68:2
    2 As smoke is driven away, so drive them away: as wax melteth before the fire, so let the wicked perish at the presence of God.
    (KJV)


    Rev 14:11
    11 And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.
    (KJV)
     
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