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T. E. Smith

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Hello everyone! To introduce myself: I'm an atheist teenager from Kentucky. I'd been religious (Baptist) most of my life, until nearly my sixteenth birthday, at which point my deconversion, lasting roughly a year, began. Despite my religious preferences, I still regularly read and study the Bible and have a great appreciation for it. And though I'm now a fulfilled atheist, I'm still glad to be here on the forums to discuss the Bible, apologetics, and other topics with all of you :)
 

amadeus

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Hello everyone! To introduce myself: I'm an atheist teenager from Kentucky. I'd been religious (Baptist) most of my life, until nearly my sixteenth birthday, at which point my deconversion, lasting roughly a year, began. Despite my religious preferences, I still regularly read and study the Bible and have a great appreciation for it. And though I'm now a fulfilled atheist, I'm still glad to be here on the forums to discuss the Bible, apologetics, and other topics with all of you :)
Do you know that God does not exist, or you simply doubt it?
 

T. E. Smith

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Do you know that God does not exist, or you simply doubt it?
I believe in the Christian God like I do other gods. Stephen Roberts said, "When you understand why you dismiss all the other possible gods, you will understand why I dismiss yours." I don't "know" that, say, Allah or Zeus does not exist, but I seriously doubt it. So I don't know for sure that Yahweh/Jesus does not exist, but I seriously doubt it.
 

amadeus

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I believe in the Christian God like I do other gods. Stephen Roberts said, "When you understand why you dismiss all the other possible gods, you will understand why I dismiss yours." I don't "know" that, say, Allah or Zeus does not exist, but I seriously doubt it. So I don't know for sure that Yahweh/Jesus does not exist, but I seriously doubt it.
Would that not make you an agnostic rather than an atheist?

Do you understand what it means to live for God by faith? Do you know the difference between believing and knowing?
 

T. E. Smith

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Would that not make you an agnostic rather than an atheist?

Do you understand what it means to live for God by faith? Do you know the difference between believing and knowing?
Atheism is the lack of belief in God. But I'd call myself an agnostic atheist: I am an atheist because I hold no belief in the existence of any deity and specifically disbelieve in the existence of God. But I am also an agnostic because I do not think the (non-)existence of a deity is currently certain in fact. There are also agnostic theists: people who do believe in God, but do not think that this fact is certain.

Yes, I know, I have listened to numerous sermons and have been reading through the Bible in a year since I was 10. To live in faith after believing in the gospel is to identify with Christ in the past, present, and future, and to not live in oneself and rely on one's own works, but rather on Christ's atoning work on the cross. It is to trust God for salvation and all our needs, day by day, and not in ourselves or our fellow humans.

I assume that by the difference you mean the difference between a simple intellectual belief in God, like a deist might have, and between a complete and regular trust in, and strong personal relationship with, a god.
 

Pearl

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I believe in the Christian God like I do other gods. Stephen Roberts said, "When you understand why you dismiss all the other possible gods, you will understand why I dismiss yours." I don't "know" that, say, Allah or Zeus does not exist, but I seriously doubt it. So I don't know for sure that Yahweh/Jesus does not exist, but I seriously doubt it.
Only one God died for his people and only one God rose from the dead and is still alive.
 
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T. E. Smith

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Oh yes, on the last point, James says, "Oh, so you believe in God? Well, you're doing very well - after all, even the demons believe, and they tremble!" The demons are said to believe, but they do not know God.
Only one God died for his people and only one God rose from the dead and is still alive.
Yes, that is the point at which we diverge. :)
 

amadeus

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...
Yes, I know, I have listened to numerous sermons and have been reading through the Bible in a year since I was 10. To live in faith after believing in the gospel is to identify with Christ in the past, present, and future, and to not live in oneself and rely on one's own works, but rather on Christ's atoning work on the cross. It is to trust God for salvation and all our needs, day by day, and not in ourselves or our fellow humans.

I assume that by the difference you mean the difference between a simple intellectual belief in God, like a deist might have, and between a complete and regular trust in, and strong personal relationship with, a god.
Some Christian believers in God will make a distinction between faith according to the Bible and belief. While they may be correct, for me is simply muddies the waters when trying to discuss where I am and where others... especially unbelievers are.

"Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen." Heb 11:1

If a person has a hope that God and His son, Jesus as described in the Bible truly exist and he acts as if that is the truth in spite of being unable to prove it to the satisfaction of unbelievers, that person would be, I believe, living by faith. If a person never actually steps out in faith in his hope in God and His son, it would raise a serious question in me.

If a person is really living by faith in God, he will also be growing, which to me means his faith in places is being replaced by knowledge even no one but another believer can see or understand it.


No growth means stagnation which means eventually... final and complete death.
 

Pearl

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Oh yes, on the last point, James says, "Oh, so you believe in God? Well, you're doing very well - after all, even the demons believe, and they tremble!" The demons are said to believe, but they do not know God.

Yes, that is the point at which we diverge. :)
When you come to Jesus you go from being a sinner to being a saint according to the bible. Your sins are forgiven and you become a new creation and get a new life with a clean slate. Religion is worthless but Relationship with God through Jesus is everything. Even though you don't believe in him as the One True God he will forgive you if you ask. No sin is too large for God to forgive if repentance in genuine.
 

T. E. Smith

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Some Christian believers in God will make a distinction between faith according to the Bible and belief. While they may be correct, for me is simply muddies the waters when trying to discuss where I am and where others... especially unbelievers are.
I don't think I buy the distinction, personally, I'm just quoting from what I hear.
If a person has a hope that God and His son, Jesus as described in the Bible truly exist and he acts as if that is the truth in spite of being unable to prove it to the satisfaction of unbelievers, that person would be, I believe, living by faith.
Right. The Bible (Hebrews 11:3) says, "By faith we understand that the universe was formed at God's command" - that is, by faith (being "certain of what you do not see", Hebrews 11:1), and not by evidence.
If a person is really living by faith in God, he will also be growing, which to me means his faith in places is being replaced by knowledge even no one but another believer can see or understand it.
That seems a little convenient. The non-believer who sees that a Christian is not growing in righteousness/faith/knowledge and concludes that God is not working in people's hearts, cannot conclude that because only believers can see it? :)
When you come to Jesus you go from being a sinner to being a saint according to the bible. Your sins are forgiven and you become a new creation and get a new life with a clean slate. Religion is worthless but Relationship with God through Jesus is everything. Even though you don't believe in him as the One True God he will forgive you if you ask. No sin is too large for God to forgive if repentance in genuine.
I appreciate your concern, thank you truly.
 

Pearl

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:)

I appreciate your concern, thank you truly.
But it sounds like you don't rely want to know and this is just a discussion to you rather than a live changing possibility.
 

T. E. Smith

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But it sounds like you don't rely want to know and this is just a discussion to you rather than a live changing possibility.
I do want to know you all's thoughts on the matter, but to me, yes it is a discussion. A discussion that I am interested in and consider important, though.
 

amadeus

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...If a person is really living by faith in God, he will also be growing, which to me means his faith in places is being replaced by knowledge even no one but another believer can see or understand it.

No growth means stagnation which means eventually... final and complete death.

...

That seems a little convenient. The non-believer who sees that a Christian is not growing in righteousness/faith/knowledge and concludes that God is not working in people's hearts, cannot conclude that because only believers can see it?
You misunderstand what I mean by believers who are able to see. Not everyone who carries the label Christian is able to see... at least according to me. Many of them, I believe, are walking in delusion. They either never really loved the truth or they have lost their love of the truth. The love of the truth is the key even when, or, if the person has incorrect, or partially incorrect, knowledge of the truth itself is.

"And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.
And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:" II Thess 2:10-11

"Nevertheless I have somewhat against thee, because thou hast left thy first love." Rev 2:4

The Truth, according to Jesus is Jesus, himself:


"Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me." John 14:6

How well does any person or even any "believer" know Jesus? Can we love Jesus without knowing him fully and absolutely? The answer is certainly, yes. However, if we really do love someone, should we not be interested and greatly desirous of getting to know him/her better? Doesn't it work that way in the flesh of people? Should it not be even more so in our love for Jesus... if he really is as he claims, the Truth? I would say, yes!
Who sees the face of God and/or Jesus?

Ex 33:20 And he said, Thou canst not see my face: for there shall no man see me, and live.
That was then... and according to Paul, how is it now?

"For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known." I Cor 13:12

Paul speaks of a then... but read what John wrote here:

"Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is." I John 3:2

Who hears and understands and obeys His voice?

"And when he putteth forth his own sheep, he goeth before them, and the sheep follow him: for they know his voice." John 10:4

As for the unbelievers, consider carefully what Jesus said here:

"Therefore speak I to them in parables: because they seeing see not; and hearing they hear not, neither do they understand.
And in them is fulfilled the prophecy of Esaias, which saith, By hearing ye shall hear, and shall not understand; and seeing ye shall see, and shall not perceive:
For this people's heart is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed; lest at any time they should see with their eyes and hear with their ears, and should understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them." Matt 13:13-15

God made a Way where there was no way. It was closed, but just because it is now open [opened by Jesus] does not mean all a person has to do is walk through it. Under God's terms and/or conditions may a person pass through. It does start back where we began... with faith!

"But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him." Heb 11:6
 

T. E. Smith

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You’re too polite to be an atheist lol.
Let me tell you a true story that happened to me, showing how Christians can be... extremely rude.

Recently at work, a job where I deliver groceries to customers' cars, I was about to load a woman's trunk when she says, "Are you a Christian?" The question threw me for a loop, being a bizarre thing to ask. After a moment I say, "No, I'm an atheist." She gets out of her car and comes over to the back and says, "Then don't you dare touch my groceries." She starts throwing them in her trunk. When she's done she says, "I don't want anything to do with you atheist filth, running around like you're so noble." Then she gets in her car and drives away.

EDIT: Also, my Sunday school teacher at one point went on a strange rant against atheists, saying they're like "bugs, crawling around like disgusting lice like they own the country." I've never heard an atheist call Christians "filth" and "disgusting lice".
 

ScottA

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I believe in the Christian God like I do other gods. Stephen Roberts said, "When you understand why you dismiss all the other possible gods, you will understand why I dismiss yours." I don't "know" that, say, Allah or Zeus does not exist, but I seriously doubt it. So I don't know for sure that Yahweh/Jesus does not exist, but I seriously doubt it.
Welcome T!

Most do not "know" that the God of the Bible is real, but only "believe." Knowing and believing are completely different.

I happen to be one of those who "know." I had no idea before, and was not raised up in a Christian home and had no indoctrination along those lines. My childhood was wonderful and all went great until I was an adult, married, had kids, and owned my own business. Then my business got broken into three times, put me out of business, ending in bankruptcy, divorce, and being separated from my kids. Meanwhile, ironically, I personally was also excelling professionally, I invented a couple things, won awards--still I lost everything dear to me, and the downward spiral continued.

After trying everything I could think of, I gave up, I lie in my bed one night and began talking to a God I had no idea even existed, and said-- "If you are there--I need some answers. I need to what life is all about and what my part in it is. If it all just ends in failure upon failure--what's the use? I know this is the place where people take their own life--but I am not going to do it--if you want my life You can take it--You can have it! If I don't get some answers, I have just one thing left that has not failed me--I am going to go live in the woods."

Suddenly, I was caught up in the spirit above the earth, above the very spot I had threatened to go-- Well, it's a long story...but when it was over, I was returned to my body--shot straight up running and didn't stop until I was seated at the foot of my bed in a cold sweat, in awe.

The whole event was more real than anything I have ever experienced in this world--so I went from not "knowing" to knowing...and I cannot say I believe. But I do know that I called on Him by name (God) and He answered, and then lead me to a Bible which I read from cover to cover in about 10 days barely stopping to eat or sleep, wherein my experience was confirmed, and the knowledge that it was He who was the Author. It is also evident that there is no other record of experiences like the one I had and those in the Bible of first hand witnesses just like myself, in all the world--in all of history...even predicting the future.

All the best to you on your own journey of discovery!
 
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Mantis

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Let me tell you a true story that happened to me, showing how Christians can be... extremely rude.

Recently at work, a job where I deliver groceries to customers' cars, I was about to load a woman's trunk when she says, "Are you a Christian?" The question threw me for a loop, being a bizarre thing to ask. After a moment I say, "No, I'm an atheist." She gets out of her car and comes over to the back and says, "Then don't you dare touch my groceries." She starts throwing them in her trunk. When she's done she says, "I don't want anything to do with you atheist filth, running around like you're so noble." Then she gets in her car and drives away.

EDIT: Also, my Sunday school teacher at one point went on a strange rant against atheists, saying they're like "bugs, crawling around like disgusting lice like they own the country." I've never heard an atheist call Christians "filth" and "disgusting lice".
That is a very un christian way to treat you. Most people, most christians are in a state of growing. Growing up spiritually. Some are still infants and act like infants. It is unfortunate that you have had these kind of experiences. A lot of people ignore Jesus' command to love each other as he loved us. People are people and some of them just straight up suck lol. Anyway it is refreshing to see an atheist that is not on the attack. If you are here you have some interest in God whether you believe him or not. I can testify that he is very, very real. he knows your name and loves you. Welcome to the forum.
 
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Mantis

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Welcome T!

Most do not "know" that the God of the Bible is real, but only "believe." Knowing and believing are completely different.

I happen to be one of those who "know." I had no idea before, and was not raised up in a Christian home and had no indoctrination along those lines. My childhood was wonderful and all went great until I was an adult, married, had kids, and owned my own business. Then my business got broken into three times, put me out of business, ending in bankruptcy, divorce, and being separated from my kids. Meanwhile, ironically, I personally was also excelling professionally, I invented a couple things, won awards--still I lost everything dear to me, and the downward spiral continued.

After trying everything I could think of, I gave up, I lie in my bed one night and began talking to a God I had no idea even existed, and said-- "If you are there--I need some answers. I need to what life is all about and what my part in it is. If it all just ends in failure upon failure--what's the use? I know this is the place where people take their own life--but I am not going to do it--if you want my life You can take it--You can have it! If I don't get some answers, I have just one thing left that has not failed me--I am going to go live in the woods."

Suddenly, I was caught up in the spirit above the earth, above the very spot I had threatened to go-- Well, it's a long story...but when it was over, I was returned to my body--shot straight up running and didn't stop until I was seated at the foot of my bed in a cold sweat, in awe.

The whole event was more real than anything I have ever experienced in this world--so I went from not "knowing" to knowing...and I cannot say I believe. But I do know that I called on Him by name (God) and He answered, and then lead me to a Bible which I read from cover to cover in about 10 days barely stopping to eat or sleep, wherein my experience was confirmed, and the knowledge that it was He who was the Author. It is also evident that there is no other record of experiences like the one I had and those in the Bible of first hand witnesses just like myself, in all the world--in all of history...even predicting the future.

All the best to you on your own journey of discovery!
Awesome testimony!