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Here we go - Slavery

Discussion in 'Christian Apologetics Forum' started by Vince, Apr 8, 2019.

  1. Vince

    Vince Active Member

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    "Now these are the rules that you shall set before them. When you buy a Hebrew slave he shall serve six years, and in the seventh he shall go out free, for nothing." (Ex 21:1-2, ESV)

    "When a man strikes his slave, male or female, with a rod and the slave dies under his hand, he shall be avenged. But if the slave survives a day or two, he is not to be avenged, for the slave is his money." (Ex 21:20-21 ESV)

    This verse in context is saying these things:
    1. God made rules for one person to enslave another by.
    2. God says here that a slave is another persons money, dehumanizing them.
    3. God made rules for one person to beat another with a rod.
    4. God is ok with a slave being beaten so bad that he may only survive a day or two as long as you don't hit them in the eye or make a tooth come out (26-27).

    Why is this god, if he exists, to be followed? Or, are these verses saying something different?
     
  2. Dave L

    Dave L Guest

    I always assumed these were improvements over the unbridled use of slaves. Does God condone slavery? He condones death for every person born so I suppose it is all part of his plan.
     
  3. icxn

    icxn Active Member

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    Hebrew slave is the reason or if you wish, common sense that serves the mind (the owner) in accomplishing the works of virtue (the number six) as if ordering and maintaining his house (soul). Before the soul is established in virtue, reason (along with the mind) is subject to whatever passion(s) (lust, anger, greed, ignorance, atheism…) one is enslaved to. Once moral perfection is achieved, reaching the seventh year as it were, then one is set free from all addictions (scripture also calls these the will of the flesh) and can freely and unerringly occupy himself with other spiritual contemplations.
    Male slave is anger and female slave is desire. If one willfully, that is what the rod implies, gives into (strikes) his anger or lust and commits (hand) a sin (death) he shall be avenged, i.e. God will require of him to repent or suffer the consequences. If the slave survives, means the sin was committed unwillingly, accidentally or perhaps out of human weakness, then he can be forgiven without repercussions. Anger is useful (money) to the mind in fighting off temptations and desire in striving after what is good and holy.
    Indeed :)
     
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  4. Willie T

    Willie T Well-Known Member

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    WOW !!! And I thought I had seen "stretching" of the Scriptures before. You take the cake! LOL
     
    Last edited: Apr 8, 2019
    Taken and Vince like this.
  5. Vince

    Vince Active Member

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    He not only condones slavery he set up the rules to govern it.
     
  6. Dave L

    Dave L Guest

    God controls all. That's why they call him God.
     
  7. Vince

    Vince Active Member

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    How do you support these claims?
     
  8. Vince

    Vince Active Member

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    Ok. Do you morally agree with what he does? Specifically setting up rules for slavery? If god applied this to today's slaves would you be for it?

    A god does not have to be just to exist.
     
  9. Dave L

    Dave L Guest

    God would not be good if he did not punish sinners.
     
  10. Vince

    Vince Active Member

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    He does punish sinners. Either with his son or they get punished in hell right? Where does it say beatings are payment for sins? Should people be allowed to beat their slaves today?
     
  11. ScottA

    ScottA Well-Known Member

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    Well...I am glad you put it in the form of a question, because, obviously you do not understand.

    First, that was a time in history that humanity has long since overcome. One could surmise, that was God's plan, that humanity needed to learn to overcome it, to right the wrong that humanity made early on.

    But that is too simple when considering God. God is the creator of all things, both simple, as well as ultra complex and things beyond the understanding of humanity. On that level, which you have rightly not qualified to speculate, there is an answer also. But if I just rattled off the technical jargon of any area of special expertise, would you understand? Of course not, you would have to start at the beginning like everyone else. So...the simple "ultra complex" reason behind God being implicated in slavery...is because it is wrong and everyone needs to know it. But it is not wrong for the reason you may think. More importantly, slavery is wrong because being born into the world...we are all slaves. Except, this type of slavery is eternal. Not even death puts an end to it.

    So, it is good to get past the right and wrong of slavery. But more important to get on to the real reason that it is a part of the human experience as designed by God.
     
    Last edited: Apr 8, 2019
  12. Vince

    Vince Active Member

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    So gods only way to have us learn this lesson was to make rules for one person to morally beat another one. OK. The thing is we have salves today, so what lesson did we learn?

    I agree. Much more explanation is required.

    Then why not say that instead of instituting a slave beating policy? If you don't care to explain it then why reply?

    This does not explain why god instituted rules for a slave owner (one human) to beat their slave (another human). I did not read where it said why a slave can be beat. It seems that is up to the owner.

    Which you will not tell me, right? If not, then I don't expect you to reply anymore.
     
  13. ScottA

    ScottA Well-Known Member

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    1. Has humanity in general not learned that slavery is bad? (Rhetorical) Indeed, we have. But some prefer it.
    2. Not more explanation...more learning. A history and a lifetime of explanation and experience is plenty. But not learning what it was for...is negligence.
    3. It's not "a God instituted slave beating policy." It is a self-inflicted consequence. We volunteered, and then had a lapse in memory.
    4. God "instituted rules for a slave owner" as a limit on us making matters worse.
    5. I have already told you: Being born into this world makes us all slaves. That is the consequence of diving into a pool with no water (so to speak). So...this is our second chance for God to survive this suicide.
     
  14. Vince

    Vince Active Member

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    1. There is an estimates 40 million slaves today around the world. What are we doing free these people? Nothing. What have we learned?
    2. But you refuse to educate me. Ok.
    3. It is a god instituted slave beating policy. Read the bible. So the slave that is being beaten deserves it becasue of sin but the owner doesn't although they sinned?
    4. What a great guy. So instead of killing immediately they can leave then to die for two days. Your religion has caused you to think immorally.
    5. This makes no sense. Would you elaborate?
     
  15. Episkopos

    Episkopos Well-Known Member

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    A disciple of Christ has been transformed from a slave of sin...to a slave of righteousness. And gladly so!
     
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  16. Vince

    Vince Active Member

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    What does this have to do with your god instituting rules to beat another human being for whatever reason they want.
     
  17. Episkopos

    Episkopos Well-Known Member

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    In the old days a person needed to become a servant sometimes to survive. A Hebrew slave was given the choice after 7 years to either take his freedom or become a bond-servant to the householder.

    Using your very limited and biased understanding here shows how bourgeois your judgment is. It is like a rich spoiled kid judging the problems of the world.
     
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  18. ScottA

    ScottA Well-Known Member

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    I will try to explain, but remember, I warned you that this is complex beyond what is considered human. In these matter you are like a toddler expecting to take the wheel of a jet. And the appropriate answer is rightly "Ask your father", or "Wait until you are older." Or worse, you're 35 and need to be told to "Grow up." So, yes, we can talk, but you will learn nothing by maintaining that attitude.

    But let's give it another try.

    1. The object of slavery is not to free the slaves in the way that you have purposed. The object is to free people like you who are virtually asleep and have not woken up to the reality of eternal slavery and the consequence of going against God. It is people like you who have not learned. You are the reason the world continues to experience slavery. Sorry, grown up answer. You asked for it.

    2. I am not refusing to educate you. It is I who am being refused.

    3. & 4. You misunderstand (and I told you so). Pleas pay more attention. The God-given laws regarding slavery, are his way of saying, "If you insist on do your mischief, take it outside...and no hitting below the belt!" Which he does to limit the abuses we would otherwise indulge in.

    But to understand the seemingly unfair differences between the master and the slave, you simply aren't ready for - but, again, you asked for it: The answer is, all of this is no more real than painted-on blood in a animated cartoon. On the contrary, God is real. And yet, if this is your only reference point, and you have not determined that everything that is not right in the world points to some greater meaning about the actually reality of life...then you would never know for lack of perception. But no one is blaming you. Parents don't tell their children tales of Santa Claus, etc., to keep them in the dark or lie to them, they do it because they love them and want to give them the time they need to come into the greater realities of life. But...on the other hand, if you in your teens, and still in that adolescent place thinking you want to make a home of never, never land...then, this is on you. At some point you are suppose to have a talk with your parents...but if you deny your parents, again, it's on you. Your perspective has made you blind.

    5. The actual slavery that the common slavery known to man only depicts, is the reason for the common slavery. It is merely the antidote. When you have all the information, when you come to know the whole truth, then you will come to realize that the tale of Santa Claus was an antidote to being nice rather than naughty. Likewise, this unreality slavery antidote (among other things) is in place to show the difference between life and death eternal. In other words, slavery is to freedom, what life without God is to life with God. The one is death, while the other is life. In other words, unbeknownst to us, we chose life without God thinking it too was life, and yet it ends in death. This entire human experience of waiting until that day when we die, is to show us that it is in fact not life at all...during which time, we can opt back into life with God.
     
    Last edited: Apr 8, 2019
  19. Taken

    Taken Well-Known Member

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    Sounds like you find rules offensive.

    Glory to God,
    Taken
     
  20. Taken

    Taken Well-Known Member

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