Holiness vs Righteousness

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Episkopos

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Oh…uh…WOW! Reading the article right now.
Kedoshim???
I think we need @Episkopos.
The word for holy in “you must be holy” is…plural…?

I guess plural can mean a duality OR more? like three? Body, soul, spirit?


Yes, plural. It should be remembered that OT holiness is NOT the same as NT holiness. This statement...

"You see, we can do righteous works without being holy. But if you are holy, you will do righteous works. {eoa}"

This statement is true....however one must raise the bar for it to be true in the NT context. In holiness we go beyond human righteousness...we put on Christ to do works on the eternal scale...through HIS righteousness.
 
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Episkopos

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Holiness is in fact total separation from all that is unclean and sinful. Thus God is absolutely holy, since God is Light and in Him is no darkness at all. So Christians are commanded to SEPARATE themselves from sin, evil, wickedness, and worldliness, and to consecrate themselves to God.

Righteousness is related to holiness but it means doing what is right and righteous. Righteous acts are actions, whereas holiness is a position taken against sin and evil.

It is an error people make that in the NT we can make ourselves holy through our own efforts in avoiding sin. We are ONLY made holy by putting on Christ and HIS perfection. There is NO sin (no spot or wrinkle) in holiness. Unfortunately an offbeat monk named Luther has convinced religious people to think that holiness and sin are compatible. And this fooled many religious uncrucified types...as it appeals to people's unbroken self-interest. That is what makes the Reformation so popular...to religious flesh.

As to imputed righteousness. One can only impute something that is true. Does God pretend to not see our true condition? Or have many religious believers believed a lie (who don't love the truth)? You might recall that we are to worship God in Spirit AND truth. Truth makes no room for fables and fictions.

No one can have God;s righteousness imputed to them. That's why it's called GOD'S righteousness. However His righteousness can COVER His people as a whole or else, by entering INTO Christ we can PUT ON Christ as individuals to be justified personally by a covering of God's righteousness. Any other position is another gospel which is roundly condemned.

Are we to be enemies of the cross by insisting on a sinful holiness? God forbid!
 

David H.

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Unfortunately an offbeat monk named Luther has convinced religious people to think that holiness and sin are compatible. And this fooled many religious uncrucified types...as it appeals to people's unbroken self-interest. That is what makes the Reformation so popular...to religious flesh.
I Agree this is where the distinction was lost when the reformation threw out the distinction between the faithful and the saints calling all believers saints. As a result the protestant churches schismed between Holiness and free grace movements into the denominational mess it is now. If you were to put a scale from free grace to holiness, each of the denominations would fall onto that scale in a different spot, and as likeminded individuals united and divided the Body of Christ a myriad of ways, they succumb to the error of calling different parts of the body of Christ heretical, so a Calvinist will call an Arminian heretical and vice versa, because one group applies scriptures directed at saints as applying to salvation and the other applies verses that speak of holiness to salvation.

But Paul encouraged us to follow a "more excellent way", the way of Love. (1 Corinthians 12:31-13:1) It is the perfecting of God's love in us by the work of the Spirit in us. It sees that each of us is on the same road to sainthood from righteousness to Holiness.... We are made righteous by Faith, made Holy through Agape love manifesting in us. The Proper doctrine is taught on Salvation by grace alone through faith alone but also the proper doctrines of sainthood are espoused and detailed by those who have walked the path to sainthood and divine election. Until this distinction between the faithful and the saints is restored, denominationalism will continue as the plague of the church protestant ad infinitum. Unity of Spirit comes when the understanding is restored. In fact we have that outline in scripture in 2 Peter 1:5-7. From faith to Agape Love, and as long as we are moving on that path we will be fruitful.

In holiness we go beyond human righteousness...we put on Christ to do works on the eternal scale...through HIS righteousness.
Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater works than these shall he do; because I go unto my Father. (John 14:12)

You will have a hard time getting western Christians to accept this, even though Jesus Himself promised this.... that is because most have never seen a saint give their testimony. The Closest we came is the Coptics in Egypt who were beheaded during the arab spring proclaiming Jesus is LORD. But that was seen from afar as they did not know these people personally.... But when it is someone in your church that this happens to then you will understand this truth.
 
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stunnedbygrace

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Yes, plural. It should be remembered that OT holiness is NOT the same as NT holiness. This statement...

"You see, we can do righteous works without being holy. But if you are holy, you will do righteous works. {eoa}"

This statement is true....however one must raise the bar for it to be true in the NT context. In holiness we go beyond human righteousness...we put on Christ to do works on the eternal scale...through HIS righteousness.
I’ve accepted that I might not ever fully understand this. Sometimes I seem to grasp it and other times it’s just gone. And currently, it’s gone and my mind can only say, no, it can’t be so - the definition of holiness does not change over time.
Ive mostly given up on trying to always grasp it and just accepted that I can sometimes see and sometimes cant. I’ve come to like both states equally. Or at least I’ve come to remain in peace in whichever I find myself in.

Ive never seen this though: {eoa} Am thinking it’s a Canadian thing…?lol.
 
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stunnedbygrace

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It is an error people make that in the NT we can make ourselves holy through our own efforts in avoiding sin.
I think men sometimes thought that in the OT as well…

And there were at least two men in the OT who God took into His holiness or took to where He was, weren’t there? They actually walked with Him and He took them rather than just being…rather than just following the cloud by day and fire by night?
 

Episkopos

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I think men sometimes thought that in the OT as well…

And there were at least two men in the OT who God took into His holiness or took to where He was, weren’t there? They actually walked with Him and He took them rather than just being…rather than just following the cloud by day and fire by night?
In the OT we see a temple holiness....a place, clothing, rites....all EXTERNAL things. Just as the law was a place marker for righteousness, so was the temple a place marker for holiness. But now holiness (true holiness) is entered into by being IN the eternal realm...by putting on Christ.

When we enter into an airplane we can fly above the clouds. When we enter into Christ we fly above the pull of this world...as we are crucified in the outer man...divided in ourselves to put away the deeds (nature) of the flesh.

And it is better to remain humble and be happy with being called to the wedding feast as a guest. If we are meant for more the Lord will call us up. And then we are to be faithful on that level of calling.
.
 

stunnedbygrace

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In the OT we see a temple holiness....a place, clothing, rites....all EXTERNAL things. Just as the law was a place marker for righteousness, so was the temple a place marker for holiness. But now holiness (true holiness) is entered into by being IN the eternal realm...by putting on Christ.
I do see what you’re saying. But, I also grasp it a little differently, albeit in a vague manner. I feel like we already had this conversation...it’s sort of like this phrase I’ve lately been hearing everywhere - “are we in a simulation?” Like…the temple holiness, the place and rites, the external temple seen with the eyes, in combination with the law, was and is the simulation/copy of the real and eternal thing/things.

And it’s like…a few men in the OT made a leap out of the simulation/temporary and into the real/eternal. (Enoch and Elijah at least?)

Ive labored for some time over the thought of those old saints who said God doesn’t call everyone to the same level of love on earth, because something seems incomplete in it. It seems that you say the same thing when you say if we are meant for more God calls us up. But I’m torn between knowing everything depends on God and what He wants versus knowing that Jesus died for the whole world and there are many called who aren’t then chosen, but they can still be faithful. On the one hand, yes, it’s all according to what God wants. On the other hand, I think there may be some key in Gideon and his men and how those who were too scared/not brave were not chosen and then a further separating based on how they drank water. And it reads as if the only reason why they weren’t all chosen is so that they could not then say they won by their own strength and numbers (which sounds like, to keep everyone humble and dependent on God He only chooses a few) but there were two…behaviors/characteristics of the men that made them not be chosen.
So…I have a a push and pull thing here or…a knot. Like, trying to get the balance between humble and yet brave enough in that humility to press into the kingdom. Akin to…Esther saying, I will go and I might die, but I must go.
 
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Lizbeth

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Enjoying this discussion. Still trying to get my head around some things, but there are paradoxes in the things of God for sure. Like where it says all things have been put under the feet of Jesus, but we do not yet see everything put under His feet. And "there remains therefore a rest for the people of God" even though it also says "we who have believed have entered that rest." Well, yes we have, even if not yet.. When reading the scriptures it's also good to bear in mind that God often "calls those things that be not as though they are".

Is it fair to say that the victory is won and His will has been accomplished in heaven and is laid up for us, even while we are still endeavouring to get hold of them on earth....His will be done on earth as it is in heaven. New Jerusalem coming down from heaven....what is heavenly needs to manifest on earth. God sees us as more than conquerors from heaven's point of view even if we don't yet. He sees us as saints even if we aren't there yet. I think we could say that He even sees us as perfect and complete even if we aren't yet on earth.....that should really encourage and inspire us to keep following/obeying Jesus as He leads us on this journey of apprehending what has been laid up in heaven for us.
 

stunnedbygrace

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When reading the scriptures it's also good to bear in mind that God often "calls those things that be not as though they are".
Yes. He can do that because He knows what’s going to happen. He says what will happen before it happens.

Amazingly, Another verse says God doesn’t do anything He doesn’t first reveal to His servants the prophets.
It sort of makes you think we should be looking for our prophets…not that a prophet today (at least I don’t think) would be…predictive so much as…uh…revelatory? A man who God like…opens scripture for in a way that can help us out of our weakened state.
That was hard to put into words!
 

GTW27

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I write this to you about those who would deceive you; but the anointing which you received from Him abides in you, and you have no need that any one should teach you; as His anointing teaches you about everything, and is true, and is no lie, just as It has taught you, abide in Him.
And now, little children, abide in Him, so that when He appears we may have confidence and not shrink from Him in shame at His coming. If you know that He is righteous, you may be sure that every one who does right is born of Him.

How can we not help but be doers of The Word as The Doer is ever increasing in us until that perfect Day.

He alone is Holy and He abides in us when we abide in Him.
 
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stunnedbygrace

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It is an error people make that in the NT we can make ourselves holy through our own efforts in avoiding sin. We are ONLY made holy by putting on Christ and HIS perfection.
This is very true.

The sinful nature is always hostile to God. It never did obey God’s laws, and it never will. (Romans 8:7) To try to fix that problem by trying hard in our own strength to not sin by obeying the law is an exercise in futility. For no one can ever be made right with God by doing what the law commands. The law simply shows us how sinful we are. (Romans 3:20) The way to be made right with God is through remaining trusting Him to fix it even if we cannot fathom how on earth He can or will.
 
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Lizbeth

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Yes. He can do that because He knows what’s going to happen. He says what will happen before it happens.

Amazingly, Another verse says God doesn’t do anything He doesn’t first reveal to His servants the prophets.
It sort of makes you think we should be looking for our prophets…not that a prophet today (at least I don’t think) would be…predictive so much as…uh…revelatory? A man who God like…opens scripture for in a way that can help us out of our weakened state.
That was hard to put into words!
I think I know what you mean and am so grateful for what the Lord pours through His people. I need all the help I can get. ;) God's word is a precious light unto our path and I find He is so faithful and timely with those He sends.
 

Episkopos

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It is just as well that Episkopos is absent. He has a tendency to sow spiritual confusion, and he does not even believe in the Gospel truth of imputed righteousness.

No one in this world is more spiritually confused than the one who thinks that one can sin WITH God's righteousness. Sinful holiness? That heresy has eternal consequences, yet people will wipe their mouths and say...I have done nothing wrong.
 

amigo de christo

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Let me see if i read the title correctly . Holiness VERSES righteousness .
That alone is a huge mistake . Rather learn ye righteousness unto Holiness . Ye cannot seperate the two .
BE YE HOLY means FLEE that evil and all appearance of it and be walking by the power of the HOLY SPIRIT .
Notice the WORD right before Spirit . HOLY . The SPIRIT does not approve of darkness nor walks in darkness .
It does not love evil , it does not call evil good and good evil . It does not trangress the holy words of GOD .
Rather BY the HOLY , yes i said HOLY , SPIRIT we can walk as we ought , worship GOD in SPIRIT and in TRUTH as we ought .
Learn the bible my dear friends .
 
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Enoch111

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No one in this world is more spiritually confused than the one who thinks that one can sin WITH God's righteousness. Sinful holiness? That heresy has eternal consequences, yet people will wipe their mouths and say...I have done nothing wrong.
Those who are deemed righteous by God (through imputed righteousness) are also commanded to be righteous and holy. So there is no need to create a false straw man. Take careful note: For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men, teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world; (Titus 2:11,12)

At the same time, if you are personally trying to present yourself as sinlessly perfect, you are not only deluding yourself but you are making God a liar: If we say that we have not sinned, we make Him [God] a liar, and His Word is not in us. (1 John 1:10)

People who hate imputed righteousness love to say that Christians have been given a license to sin. And that is PURE BALONEY.
 

Episkopos

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Those who are deemed righteous by God (through imputed righteousness) are also commanded to be righteous and holy. So there is no need to create a false straw man. Take careful note: For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men, teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world; (Titus 2:11,12)

At the same time, if you are personally trying to present yourself as sinlessly perfect, you are not only deluding yourself but you are making God a liar: If we say that we have not sinned, we make Him [God] a liar, and His Word is not in us. (1 John 1:10)

People who hate imputed righteousness love to say that Christians have been given a license to sin. And that is PURE BALONEY.
The confusion lies in your own doctrine.

You uphold what you are denying and deny what you are upholding.

How?

You don't understand either righteousness or holiness. That is obvious.

One can sin and still be righteous.....but not holy. You, of course have no understanding here. One needs to understand the scale of the gospel...its power over the flesh.

One would have to experience the victory of walking IN Christ...His resurrection life...in order to understand the holy provision in a full understanding of the gospel. Short of experiencing that power, you will jumble all the verses into a concoction that supports NEITHER righteousness NOR holiness.

No wonder you see the truth as confusing. You belong to this generation that cannot tolerate (endure) sound doctrine. Your religious flesh screams out in rebellion against the truth.
 

stunnedbygrace

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One would have to experience the victory of walking IN Christ...His resurrection life...in order to understand the holy provision in a full understanding of the gospel. Short of experiencing that power, you will jumble all the verses into a concoction that supports NEITHER righteousness NOR holiness.
Not sure on that…I’ve come, after years of getting them constantly jumbled, to a place where i can much better keep the distinction (mostly by your repetitive patience with me during those years). I do have understanding now of the distinction, and the OT is very meticulous in the distinction between what is holy and what is not, to the point of seeming to paint hairs on a frog! It’s quite plain that it’s a very serious matter to God. And I don’t think it’s because He’s a monster. I think it’s for our protection and because a living dog is better than a dead dog.
 
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