Homosexuality

[th1b.taylor]

Jude 1:7 Even as Sodom and Gomorrah, and the cities around them, having, in the same way as these, given themselves over to sexual immorality and gone after strange flesh, are set forth as an example, suffering the punishment of eternal fire.




Homosexuality is a very hot topic in this world we live in today. I do not know a great deal about the subject but it appears that it is running loose in our Government today. For a few years in the recent past, every time I turned around it seemed like another Congressman or Senator had been caught in the act, one in a Public Restroom. The, perhaps, 2 percent of the population, calling themselves Gay, I can understand why they dislike me. I am constantly in contested conversation with them but then, not as often as I seem to be in these conversations with people that have named the Name of Christ for themselves.




To many this will seem to go off topic but I assure you, it is the point. People ask me, can a homosexual male of female be saved and I always answer, ¨Sure, if they repent of their behavior and agree to keep the Commands of their Savior, Jesus, the Christ!¨ The popular but, totally, wrong ¨opinion¨ about scripture is that the New Testament has replaced and made void the Old Testament! And of course the Ten Commandments are trashed along with this misconception. If we, God´s people, will just take the time to read the Bible to know God we will find Godly Wisdom purveys in our lives because of it.




I find it often said that the people, honestly, believe that the New Testament does not deal with the subject and therefore is no longer a sin. Further, I have no idea where this comes from but these folks elevate Paul over God and, incorrectly, state that Paul never taught against it. The last portion of Romans 1, written by Paul, deals exclusively with the subject and here we have Jude dealing with the matter. In the Law, in Lev. 20:13 we see the commandment, by Jesus, in the Old Testament that deals with the matter. (To deal with what I just said read John 1:1-3.)




We do not hear this subject preached much today because the Homosexual Subculture is filled with, monetarily, rich people and numbers have become more important than Spiritual truth in the Church today. In Matt. 5:17 we find Jesus teaching that He has not done away with the Law, in fact every unsaved man or woman will be judged under the Law! And while a Saved Man is not under the Law, neither does he or she try to be disobedient to their Master!




So, let´s see if we can understand all of this in light of the scriptures. In Romans 3:10 & 23 we see that everyone of us has sinned and fallen short of the desired mark. Then we get to a verse such as 1John 5:18 and we are told that a Saved Man, sineth not and so there needs to be an explanation. (Hold tight, I´m not off subject.) I often have folks object when I tell them that the Bible is all of one context and no single scripture or group of scriptures can be understood without the light of all other scripture but this is a true statement and this is a good example of why. What we have here is a changed Life Style!




When I was a lost man I carefully laid plans for Friday and Saturday nights. I planned to sin! As soon as I was overcome by the Spirit, the Pentecostals call it Baptized in the Spirit, I no longer had a plan to sin. Did I sin? Yes, I fell into sin from time to time but each time I repented until I reached the state I´m in now and I seldom stumble today. It takes practice! The same is true for the Homosexual man or woman. If they intentionally live a life, contrary to the Word of God, they are no0t and never were saved. To see what I´m talking about search for Dennis Jernigan with the Google search engine and read His testimony.

 

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And if a man lie with mankind, as with womankind, both of them have committed abomination
Lev 20:13

Sounds pretty clear to me.

Then again, not all wish to follow the precepts of the Bible or to search for God with all their mind, with all their heart and with all their -parts-.

The voices of perpetual self-indulgence are loud and long in America today. None declare their desire to abandon their personal preferences for the good of the community, for the purpose of seeking God truly, or for their own repentance and salvation.

Before the collapse of every mighty empire, the demands of debauched and immoral men have always heralded it's end.
They are like the O.T. prophets in reverse. Instead of a call to repentance and heavenly blessing they invite the opposite;indulgence and judgment.

Today we are witness to the end of traditional morality, the popular acceptance of arrogant rebellion against the Most High and a tsunami of lies and accusations directed at the gospel of Jesus Christ and His church. We are also witness to the decline and fall of the American Empire.

Love, creature worship and a denial of sin is proclaimed to be the answer, oddly contradicting the love of God in Christ Jesus who died that we might be delivered from sin.

 

[jdbrown]

I thought that calling something an "Abomination" was pretty clear. And the fact that God destroyed two cities (Sodom and Gomorrah) shows that "sodomy" is not to be taken lightly.

 

[Foreigner]

One of the reasons God destroyed Sodom and Gomorrah was due to homosexual behavior, but that was not the only reason:

"Behold, this was the guilt of your sister Sodom: she and her daughters had pride, excess of food, and prosperous ease, but did not aid the poor and needy. They were haughty and did an abomination before me. So I removed them, when I saw it." - Ez. 16:49-50

 

[aspen]

Christ meets us where we are at. If homosexuals love God and obey His commandments - who knows what God will do? The fact is, there are much worse things a homosexual can engage in than a monogamous same-sex relationship.

One of the most awe-inspiring thing about God is that His point / teaching always goes over our heads - the Pharisees missed it (to rigid and too right), the disciples didn't get it - Peter didn't even get when he provided the right answer "You are the Messiah". God is always cutting through our dualistic minds just like He did with the Pharisees - they hit Him with right and wrong - He cut through it with Love.

So who knows? Who are we to judge? We are all guilty - and guilty for repeated - lifestyle sin. It is not about who thinks they are righteous, anyway. It is about mercy, and love.

This hypie love message is dedicated to my good buddy Foreigner......

 

[Duckybill]

1 Corinthians 6:9-10 (ESV)
[sup]9 [/sup]Or do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: neither the sexually immoral, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor men who practice homosexuality, [sup]10 [/sup]nor thieves, nor the greedy, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God.

 

[aspen]

1 Corinthians 6:9-10 (ESV)
[sup]9 [/sup]Or do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: neither the sexually immoral, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor men who practice homosexuality, [sup]10 [/sup]nor thieves, nor the greedy, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God.

So what do these two texts say about homosexuality? Are gays and lesbians on that list of sinners in the Jewish law that Paul quotes to make an entirely different point?

Greek scholars say that in first century the Greek word malaokois probably meant "effeminate call boys." The New Revised Standard Version says "male prostitutes."

As for arsenokoitai, Greek scholars don't know exactly what it means -- and the fact that we don't know is a big part of this tragic debate. Some scholars believe Paul was coining a name to refer to the customers of "the effeminate call boys." We might call them "dirty old men." Others translate the word as "sodomites," but never explain what that means.

In 1958, for the first time in history, a person translating that mysterious Greek word into English decided it meant homosexuals, even though there is, in fact, no such word in Greek or Hebrew. But that translator made the decision for all of us that placed the word homosexual in the English-language Bible for the very first time.

 

[Duckybill]

Romans 1 confirms that gays are not welcome in God's Kingdom.

Romans 1:26-32 (ESV)
[sup]26 [/sup]For this reason God gave them up to dishonorable passions. For their women exchanged natural relations for those that are contrary to nature; [sup]27 [/sup]and the men likewise gave up natural relations with women and were consumed with passion for one another, men committing shameless acts with men and receiving in themselves the due penalty for their error. [sup]28 [/sup]And since they did not see fit to acknowledge God, God gave them up to a debased mind to do what ought not to be done. [sup]29 [/sup]They were filled with all manner of unrighteousness, evil, covetousness, malice. They are full of envy, murder, strife, deceit, maliciousness. They are gossips, [sup]30 [/sup]slanderers, haters of God, insolent, haughty, boastful, inventors of evil, disobedient to parents, [sup]31 [/sup]foolish, faithless, heartless, ruthless. [sup]32 [/sup]Though they know God’s decree that those who practice such things deserve to die, they not only do them but give approval to those who practice them.

 

[Rach1370]

Christ meets us where we are at. If homosexuals love God and obey His commandments - who knows what God will do? The fact is, there are much worse things a homosexual can engage in than a monogamous same-sex relationship.

One of the most awe-inspiring thing about God is that His point / teaching always goes over our heads - the Pharisees missed it (to rigid and too right), the disciples didn't get it - Peter didn't even get when he provided the right answer "You are the Messiah". God is always cutting through our dualistic minds just like He did with the Pharisees - they hit Him with right and wrong - He cut through it with Love.

So who knows? Who are we to judge? We are all guilty - and guilty for repeated - lifestyle sin. It is not about who thinks they are righteous, anyway. It is about mercy, and love.

This hypie love message is dedicated to my good buddy Foreigner......

Hey Aspen. I think one of the reasons that homosexuality is such a hotly debated topic, is not so much that it's whether its a 'bad' sin or not, it's the fact that people are trying to claim it's not a sin at all. God made marriage for man and woman...one man and one woman. Anything outside of that is sexual sin. It doesn't make gay sin any better or worse than other sexual sin, but it is still sin. The very huge problem we have today within our churches is that we are being pressured into accepting homosexuality as no sin at all. "If God is a God of love, why wouldn't he want us loving each other...in any form?" We should not forget for one moment, that while God's nature is loving, it is equally wrathful, against sin and sinners. No matter the public or political pressure, we should never forget that what God has declared sinful we cannot declare righteous. Sexual relationships are for one man, one woman....that's how He made it, that's how it remains.

Does this, however, mean we treat gays with disrespect and revulsion? Pfft! No....they may have a type of sexual sin, but by golly we have sin of our own too!! No, we love them and with respect show them what God intends for His people. If a homosexual couple have no belief or love of God, who are we to hold them to our standards? Paul tells us we cannot hold non-Christians to Christian standards. So we love them, be friends with them even, but never give the impression that we think it's 'perfectly fine and normal'....because if we love God and follow and believe His Word, we know it isn't. It is, of course, a different matter all together when you have gay people within your Church. Of course they are welcome, but never in authority. To have a gay pastor would be the same as having a pastor who slept with all the single women in the Church....deliberately flaunting their sin under God's nose, so to speak. Gay people in church need to be seen as the rest of us 'sheep'....people struggling along the way to be free of our sin....whatever that sin may be. We all need encouragement and truth. My point is, if we start saying "homosexuality is ok with God" then these people will never realise they are still slaves to sin...they'll never know they need Jesus' help to break free of it. The next step will be saying that adultery is okay, or theft is okay or that abuse is a husbands right. Where do you stop? The fact is we shouldn't start. God's the boss, he makes the rules and we shouldn't change them.

 

[aspen]

Romans 1 confirms that gays are not welcome in God's Kingdom.

Romans 1:26-32 (ESV)
[sup]26 [/sup]For this reason God gave them up to dishonorable passions. For their women exchanged natural relations for those that are contrary to nature; [sup]27 [/sup]and the men likewise gave up natural relations with women and were consumed with passion for one another, men committing shameless acts with men and receiving in themselves the due penalty for their error. [sup]28 [/sup]And since they did not see fit to acknowledge God, God gave them up to a debased mind to do what ought not to be done. [sup]29 [/sup]They were filled with all manner of unrighteousness, evil, covetousness, malice. They are full of envy, murder, strife, deceit, maliciousness. They are gossips, [sup]30 [/sup]slanderers, haters of God, insolent, haughty, boastful, inventors of evil, disobedient to parents, [sup]31 [/sup]foolish, faithless, heartless, ruthless. [sup]32 [/sup]Though they know God’s decree that those who practice such things deserve to die, they not only do them but give approval to those who practice them.

Did these priests and priestesses get into these behaviors because they were lesbian or gay? I don't think so. Did God abandon them because they were practicing homosexuals? No. Read the text again.

In There's a Wideness in God's Mercy, the Rev. Dr. Louis B. Smedes, a distinguished Christian author and ethicist, describes exactly how the Bible says these promiscuous priests and priestesses got into this mess. Once again it has nothing to do with homosexuality:

SMEDES: "The people Paul had in mind refused to acknowledge and worship God, and for this reason were abandoned by God. And being abandoned by God, they sank into sexual depravity."

SMEDES: "The homosexuals I know have not rejected God at all; they love God and they thank God for his grace and his gifts. How, then, could they have been abandoned to homosexuality as a punishment for refusing to acknowledge God?"

SMEDES: "Nor have the homosexuals that I know given up heterosexual passions for homosexual lusts. They have been homosexual from the moment of their earliest sexual stirrings. They did not change from one orientation to another; they just discovered that they were homosexual. It would be unnatural for most homosexuals to have heterosexual sex."

SMEDES: "And the homosexual people I know do not lust after each other any more than heterosexual people do... their love for one another is likely to be just as spiritual and personal as any heterosexual love can be."

​

Also, Romans 2 begins with "Therefore, you have no excuse, whoever you are, when you judge others; for in passing judgment on another you condemn yourself..." Even after he describes the disturbing practices he has seen, Paul warns us that judging others is God's business, not ours.

 

[Duckybill]

[font="Verdana]Did these priests and priestesses get into these behaviors because they were lesbian or gay? I don't think so. Did God abandon them because they were practicing homosexuals? No. Read the text again.[/quote]
I'm not saying they can't be saved. Just that they aren't, as with adulterers, liars, etc.

[quote]
[/font][/color][/size][size="3"][font="Verdana]Also, Romans 2 begins with "Therefore, you have no excuse, whoever you are, when you judge others; for in passing judgment on another you condemn yourself..."[/quote]
True, for those living in sin.
[quote]
Even after he describes the disturbing practices he has seen, Paul warns us that judging others is God's business, not ours.[/font][/color][/size][size="3"]

Paul wasn't judging anyone, just stating facts. Those who practice these sinful lives "will not inherit the Kingdom of God".

1 Corinthians 6:9-10 (ESV)
[sup]9 [/sup]Or do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: neither the sexually immoral, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor men who practice homosexuality, [sup]10 [/sup]nor thieves, nor the greedy, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God.

Take note of Rom 1:32

[sup]32 [/sup]Though they know God’s decree that those who practice such things deserve to die, they not only do them but give approval to those who practice them.

 

[aspen]

I'm not saying they can't be saved. Just that they aren't, as with adulterers, liars, etc.

Isn't that kind of a cop-out? It is sort of like saying that homosexuals are fornicating because they are not married; yet, they are not allowed to marry.

True, for those living in sin.

Paul doesn't make that distinction in this verse.

Paul wasn't judging anyone, just stating facts. Those who practice these sinful lives "will not inherit the Kingdom of God".

I never said he was. His point is, we all lead sinful lives - one sin is all it takes, and we sin daily. Until we are fully sanctified, we will continue to turn away from love and therefore sin. The point Paul is trying to make is that no one who is fully sanctified will behave in a sinful manner. Every sin is a failure to love. He was speaking to the people in the church who were choosing the worldly ways of Corinth over God's sanctification. Like Jesus said, you cannot love the world and be sanctified - you cannot serve two masters. It was worldly to fornicate with male prostitutes, which was apparently part of the culture; in the same way, it is sinful for us to follow our culture of consumerism at the expense of our sanctification. Greed is our primary problem in our culture and it is practically ignored in our churches. I think Jesus would be knocking over some tables in many of the name-it-and-claim-it ministries, today.

Anyway, I think it is our job to love regardless of our feelings about their behavior. Our sanctification depends on it. Love homosexuals despite their sin, just like they love us despite our sin. When it comes down to it - we are not responsible for reforming their behavior or rejecting them for it. In fact, rejecting them may interfere with their own sanctification because it leads to resentment and bitterness towards God and His people. I have never seen or met a homosexual who was rejected into the Kingdom.

1 Corinthians 6:9-10 (ESV)
[sup]9 [/sup]Or do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: neither the sexually immoral, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor men who practice homosexuality, [sup]10 [/sup]nor thieves, nor the greedy, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God.

I've already commented on this verse, but I will add this: I agree! No one will feel the need to sin anymore because when we are fully sanctified, we will once again know how to love perfectly. How exciting!

Take note of Rom 1:32
[sup]32 [/sup]Though they know God’s decree that those who practice such things deserve to die, they not only do them but give approval to those who practice them.

I am not going to stand in the way of another person's sanctification. Rejection causes bitterness and despair, not redemption. When my friends who are gay share their faith and lives with me, I am going to encourage them to love deeply. All homosexuals have already heard the condemnation in the Bible.

BTW, Paul is talking about people who have chosen the world over Him:

[sup]28[/sup] Furthermore, just as they did not think it worthwhile to retain the knowledge of God, so God gave them over to a depraved mind, so that they do what ought not to be done. [sup]29[/sup] They have become filled with every kind of wickedness, evil, greed and depravity. They are full of envy, murder, strife, deceit and malice. They are gossips, [sup]30[/sup]slanderers, God-haters, insolent, arrogant and boastful; they invent ways of doing evil; they disobey their parents; [sup]31[/sup] they have no understanding, no fidelity, no love, no mercy. [sup]32[/sup] Although they know God’s righteous decree that those who do such things deserve death, they not only continue to do these very things but also approve of those who practice them.

Sounds like people who have joined the world, to me - not people who happen to be gay and trying to follow God. I also think that Paul is commenting on two hallmarks of a Christian - love and mercy. I have seen very little of either when it comes to the Christian condemnation of homosexuals.

Ok, now I need to say something, off the record. I am really not invested in being a champion of homosexuals or their behavior; I am interested in presenting a different viewpoint and exploring a different approach to dealing with people who are Christians and homosexual.

I think rejection has been tried and has failed miserably. I think it is time for acceptance and love - allowing them access to God's sanctifying grace, without all the crap from us. God will deal with all of their sins, just like He deals with ours.
[font="'Book Antiqua"]
[/font][font="'Book Antiqua"]Finally, as soon as we kick out all the Prideful Christians in our congregations (and there are millions and instead of rejecting them like we do homosexuals, we encourage them!) then, we can get back to arguing about whether homosexuals should be included.
[/font]

 

[brionne]

what we personally may think of homosexuality has no bearing on how God views it. If we really think that homosexuality is acceptable, we are not looking at things from Gods point of view.

the scriptures are very clear that he does not like it, so perhaps we should try and understand why he doesnt like it.

The union of the male and female was for the purpose of bringing forth children into the world. Marriage was Gods arrangement by which that purpose could be realized. God instituted it in such a way so as to benefit all involved... but we should always remember that the arrangement of marriage is for the benefit of God himself as it is the means by which he brings forth more intelligent spiritual beings into his physical creation.

Homosexuality is in direct opposition to that pursuit of God and by supporting the practice, we are denying God the right to bring forth more of his own creations into his own universe.


if we are not for God, we are against him....thats the way I see it.

 

[Rach1370]

Isn't that kind of a cop-out? It is sort of like saying that homosexuals are fornicating because they are not married; yet, they are not allowed to marry.

So, just say that gay marriage is legalised (which is a man made decision) does that mean you think that the Bible, that God, condones men being with men...women with women? Can you, in any way, show that God and scripture support homosexuality? Apart from the "God wants us to love" argument, which is moot anyway. As a Christian I do my best to love others, but I surely don't sleep with them!
Because if God doesn't support it, He is against it. People may quibble with 'meanings' and 'intents' within some passages in scripture, but this is, I believe just people trying their best to make their sin acceptable. There is no way we can read God's approval into any of these passages. And if He is against it, so must we be.

 

[aspen]

So, just say that gay marriage is legalised (which is a man made decision) does that mean you think that the Bible, that God, condones men being with men...women with women?

Certainly not! I think it is pretty clear that God's plan is for 1 man and 1 women to be married. Unfortunately, humans are broken - some of us are not capable of dotting every I and crossing every t and God knows this! The cool part is that God not only 'loves' those people who are broken in some generic 'God loves everyone' way; He also has intimate relationships with them - just look David! God loved David who had hundreds of concubines and still could not keep his hands off another man's wife! Was David sorry for his sin? Sure he was - for murdering his friend and taking what belonged to him. Bathsheba was not considered - she was mere property. David's behavior was appalling, but God loved him intimately because He choose to do so. Now, according to Paul's verses as interpreted by Duckybill, David is in Hell - despite the fact that he repented for some of his crimes against God. If God is capable of looking past David's shortcomings, don't you think He can look past a homosexuals shortcomings - even if the homosexual doesn't realize his/her faults on a heart level? I really do not want to limit God in this area

Can you, in any way, show that God and scripture support homosexuality?

Nope. But I do not believe it condemns homosexuals either. I think the verses we rely on to single out this sin are talking about worldliness and male prostitution, Do I think homosexuality is a sin? You bet I do! Do I think that sin excludes them from an intimate, sanctifying relationship with God and exclusion from the Body of Christ - not according to God's track record of engaging in intimate relationships with sinful people who are blinded to certain personal sin. I really think that homosexuality exists for the sanctification of heterosexual saints - we are challenged to love in the face of this sin. Finally, we actually know how to do this - we love our pride-filled pastors, despite their sin, so why do we feel called to place homosexuality in a different category?

Apart from the "God wants us to love" argument, which is moot anyway. As a Christian I do my best to love others, but I surely don't sleep with them!

How can love be moot? We were created to love - far from being moot, it is the whole point! Love is the remedy for sin! We try to be good by resisting the urge to be selfish, but that results in even greater sin. If we simply loved others instead of worshiping and pampering and trying to soothe ourselves at the expense of other, sin would no longer exist. Of course we can not do this on our own, nor do I believe it is possible outside of Heaven, but we are called to practice radical love here on Earth. Finally, it sounds as if you may believe that homosexuality is confined to sex? In actuality homosexuals are just like everyone else - they are not sex-machines.

Because if God doesn't support it, He is against it. People may quibble with 'meanings' and 'intents' within some passages in scripture, but this is, I believe just people trying their best to make their sin acceptable. There is no way we can read God's approval into any of these passages. And if He is against it, so must we be.

They believe their sin is acceptable because they see no other option. If we exclude them from the only possible solution (God's justification and sanctification) we are condemning them, and limiting God.

The union of the male and female was for the purpose of bringing forth children into the world.

Well, I guess my sister is really not married and living in sin because she cannot conceive. This is a ridiculous argument against homosexuality - it condemns the valid marriages of thousands of couples simply to support an opinion.

 

[Fire-7]

I am homosexual; it's not a label that I put on myself or something that I think I am. My orientation is simply homosexual--and yes: I was BORN this way...the same as you were born heterosexual. You, being hetero, have no choice in your orientation. The only "choice" you do have is as to whether you want to experience your heterosexuality or not. But the attraction is still there, has been, and will always be. There isn't anything I can say to you to get you to understand me, because your brain is literally wired differently (search this out scientifically for yourself if you wish). And this is why there seems to be no point of reconing with this issue.

If you really have the Spirit of Truth, then this Spirit is the only thing that can enlighten you on the matter. The bible says that the anointing breaks the yoke. Unless what you're saying is breaking someone free from what you perceive to be bondage, then everything you are doing and saying is in vain. The bible also says (since we are using the word) thagt we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities and other spiritual forces.

I can say that almost everytime I hear (or read) someone preach against homosexuality, I feel personally picked on, like I'm being attacked. I know you will say that it is "conviction," but I beg to differ. The only reason I feel this way is because of frustration! It's frustrating to me to be misunderstood. And to hear preachers from the pulpit telling me I'm "disgusting," "gross," "evil," "rebellious," a "sissy," a "punk," a "faggot" (yes, these words have come across many pulpits)... I'll tell you how it feels to me. It makes me not want G-d's presence, but rather makes me want to run from such a biased dictator. It makes me not trust G-d. It makes me think that G-d is a cold, heartless, narcicistic, egomaniacal, cruel, deranged, schizophrenic psychopath! Call it irreverent or disrespectful to think this about G-d, but this is precisely how He is appears to me. If these men and women are His mouthpieces, then they are the revelation of G-d. And while no one in their right mind would want to go to hell--I certainly don't!--no one in their right mind would want to submit themselves to such a tyrant either; that would make Heaven as bad as Hell, if not worse.

This is my honest perception, as a homosexual who did not ask for this orientation, but was given it by the same G-d who condemns me for it.

 

[aspen]

I am homosexual; it's not a label that I put on myself or something that I think I am. My orientation is simply homosexual--and yes: I was BORN this way...the same as you were born heterosexual. You, being hetero, have no choice in your orientation. The only "choice" you do have is as to whether you want to experience your heterosexuality or not. But the attraction is still there, has been, and will always be. There isn't anything I can say to you to get you to understand me, because your brain is literally wired differently (search this out scientifically for yourself if you wish). And this is why there seems to be no point of reconing with this issue.

If you really have the Spirit of Truth, then this Spirit is the only thing that can enlighten you on the matter. The bible says that the anointing breaks the yoke. Unless what you're saying is breaking someone free from what you perceive to be bondage, then everything you are doing and saying is in vain. The bible also says (since we are using the word) thagt we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities and other spiritual forces.

I can say that almost everytime I hear (or read) someone preach against homosexuality, I feel personally picked on, like I'm being attacked. I know you will say that it is "conviction," but I beg to differ. The only reason I feel this way is because of frustration! It's frustrating to me to be misunderstood. And to hear preachers from the pulpit telling me I'm "disgusting," "gross," "evil," "rebellious," a "sissy," a "punk," a "faggot" (yes, these words have come across many pulpits)... I'll tell you how it feels to me. It makes me not want G-d's presence, but rather makes me want to run from such a biased dictator. It makes me not trust G-d. It makes me think that G-d is a cold, heartless, narcicistic, egomaniacal, cruel, deranged, schizophrenic psychopath! Call it irreverent or disrespectful to think this about G-d, but this is precisely how He is appears to me. If these men and women are His mouthpieces, then they are the revelation of G-d. And while no one in their right mind would want to go to hell--I certainly don't!--no one in their right mind would want to submit themselves to such a tyrant either; that would make Heaven as bad as Hell, if not worse.

This is my honest perception, as a homosexual who did not ask for this orientation, but was given it by the same G-d who condemns me for it.

Wow! Great post!

On a side note; I totally understand what you are saying about not wanting to spend eternity with a tyrant. I have mentioned several times before that if the OT is an accurate account of God's nature, rather than a window into the minds and hearts of the nomadic Hebrew people's perception of God; I will ask to leave Heaven, believing I must be in the wrong place because that is not the God I know.

Why would anyone want to spend eternity with a God that is less moral than a human who is nationalistic, murderous, and jealous? I treat my dogs better than God appears to treat His people in some of the OT accounts.

Have you read anything from Mel White? He has a good website called soulforce.

 

[rockytopva]

Mortify means to put to death... As the scripture says...

For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live. - Romans 8:3

Mortify therefore your members which are upon the earth; fornication, uncleanness, inordinate affection, evil concupiscence, and covetousness, which is idolatry: - Colossians 3:5

Flee also youthful lusts: but follow righteousness, faith, charity, peace, with them that call on the Lord out of a pure heart. - 2 Timothy 2:22

 

[WhiteKnuckle]

Of course homosexuality is a sin.

I still don't understand why this subject returns so much, and I still don't understand why we concern ourselves with homosexuality more so than anything else.

Is being attracted to the same sex any different than being attracted to someone other than your spouse? What about child abuse? What about cheating husbands or wives?

Statistically infadelity is more rampant in society than homosexuality, same with child abuse.

I've met more people who claim to be Christian tell me that there's nothing wrong with porn, or getting drunk or sleeping around. I've met even fewer homosexuals that claim to be Christians tell me that homosexuality is not a sin. Infact, I have never met a homosexual tell me that it's okay in God's eyes.

With the high divorce rate, and incedents of infadelity in the church, and the high rate of child abuse, and spousal abuse in the curch, and the high rate of all other kinds of imorality in the church, I seriously believe that we put too much attention towards homosexuality.

Yes, homosexuality is a sin, but, it's no more a sin than any of the above mentioned acts.

Why do we constantly debate this? Is it because people proclaim homosexual out in the open? Is it okay to ignore the abuse and nightmares in many socalled Christian homes?

A man sleeping with a man is less offensive to me than a baby being punched in the face. Rest assured there is more child abuse than there are homosexuals.

 

[aspen]

Of course homosexuality is a sin.

I still don't understand why this subject returns so much, and I still don't understand why we concern ourselves with homosexuality more so than anything else.

Is being attracted to the same sex any different than being attracted to someone other than your spouse? What about child abuse? What about cheating husbands or wives?

Statistically infadelity is more rampant in society than homosexuality, same with child abuse.

I've met more people who claim to be Christian tell me that there's nothing wrong with porn, or getting drunk or sleeping around. I've met even fewer homosexuals that claim to be Christians tell me that homosexuality is not a sin. Infact, I have never met a homosexual tell me that it's okay in God's eyes.

With the high divorce rate, and incedents of infadelity in the church, and the high rate of child abuse, and spousal abuse in the curch, and the high rate of all other kinds of imorality in the church, I seriously believe that we put too much attention towards homosexuality.

Yes, homosexuality is a sin, but, it's no more a sin than any of the above mentioned acts.

Why do we constantly debate this? Is it because people proclaim homosexual out in the open? Is it okay to ignore the abuse and nightmares in many socalled Christian homes?

A man sleeping with a man is less offensive to me than a baby being punched in the face. Rest assured there is more child abuse than there are homosexuals.

It is a safe sin for heterosexuals to point at and condemn because it is the only sin we are not tempted by.

Just think if some of the people condemned the sin of pride (the one that got us kicked out of the garden in the place) as vehemently as homosexuality? I know a lot of people here that would have to quit posting immediately.