Hoping to Strengthen what faith I still have

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Chronicles

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Nov 21, 2007
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Hi everyone, just wanted to say hi and tell you I am enjoying reading the threads in this forum…I have convert from being a Christian for 15 yrs to becoming a non-Christian now ( a 5 yr process starting with reading the Books of Enoch), who studies hard to find the truth in things concerning the god of the Bible whom I want to believe but can’t...I wish Jesus was the messiah but these days I don't even believe in "A Messiah" at all… I suppose I come to these forums in the hope that a Christian will wake me up because I loved my faith in god and I have lost it because my love for truth has been stronger...Hopefully god can prove he is true to me again but after 15 yrs of believing, I have had to admit and face the truth of so many mythical views I have held…I have to decide, do I want to live my life via truth and knowledge or by faith in something that has no evidence…(It is the truth and Knowledge that has saved me and set me free. The blood of Christ never did a whole lot for me personally, Just being Honest there) After 15yrs of Christianity, I have tried and seen it all within the Christian churches and I’m extremely disappointed at the mass denial of truth by those who could not hold on to me with there mythology anymore. I Loved God and Jesus more than most of my Christian brothers which was shown by endless hours of diligence towards the things of god and the Church…These things are a part of me now but Christ no longer is.Can any of you imagine how difficult a road I have traveled and how hard it is to have gone through what the Christian Religion put me through and still, I want to believe and love god…I have been rejected and betrayed by all my Christian brothers whom I trusted and loved for years, simply because I dare to think for myself or question the things we Christians believe…Christianity has shown me the nasty, judgmental and crawl side because I have dared to question my faith in god, Jesus and the bible…Is that God doing that to me? Is that what god want to do? Reject me because I have deeper questions than most people?? I don’t know but I do know that all the Christians I have loved and trusted have “ALL” been like Judas towards me because I dare to think for myself…I am torn between 2 gods these days…The god of truth and the god of faith, both are poles apart from each other…Makes my life very difficult? If god is real, then he is doing some crazy stuff to me…Anyways, enough about me, I just hope I don’t get banned because I don’t take things sitting down…I will believe the truth and I want to believe in the God Of Jesus but I will not do it blindly ever again…God should at least understand and respect me for that and not ban me from hear without good cause…I hope to meet good Christian friends hear because that is something I have missed since loosing my faith in Christ…I am also hoping to gain some strength back into my faith by trying to have Christian friends again…So, Hi All.
 

RobinD69

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Oct 7, 2007
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So what lies have turned you away.I truned from the faith for 15years because I thought as you seem to.I opened myself up to Gods love and guidance and He has shown me the error of my ways.Please share your questions and evidence,I wont judge you but I will be more than happy to discuss with you.
 

Jordan

Active Member
Apr 6, 2007
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(Chronicles;23611)
Hi everyone, just wanted to say hi and tell you I am enjoying reading the threads in this forum…I have convert from being a Christian for 15 yrs to becoming a non-Christian now ( a 5 yr process starting with reading the Books of Enoch), who studies hard to find the truth in things concerning the god of the Bible whom I want to believe but can’t...I wish Jesus was the messiah but these days I don't even believe in "A Messiah" at all… I suppose I come to these forums in the hope that a Christian will wake me up because I loved my faith in god and I have lost it because my love for truth has been stronger...Hopefully god can prove he is true to me again but after 15 yrs of believing, I have had to admit and face the truth of so many mythical views I have held…I have to decide, do I want to live my life via truth and knowledge or by faith in something that has no evidence…(It is the truth and Knowledge that has saved me and set me free. The blood of Christ never did a whole lot for me personally, Just being Honest there) After 15yrs of Christianity, I have tried and seen it all within the Christian churches and I’m extremely disappointed at the mass denial of truth by those who could not hold on to me with there mythology anymore. I Loved God and Jesus more than most of my Christian brothers which was shown by endless hours of diligence towards the things of god and the Church…These things are a part of me now but Christ no longer is.Can any of you imagine how difficult a road I have traveled and how hard it is to have gone through what the Christian Religion put me through and still, I want to believe and love god…I have been rejected and betrayed by all my Christian brothers whom I trusted and loved for years, simply because I dare to think for myself or question the things we Christians believe…Christianity has shown me the nasty, judgmental and crawl side because I have dared to question my faith in god, Jesus and the bible…Is that God doing that to me? Is that what god want to do? Reject me because I have deeper questions than most people?? I don’t know but I do know that all the Christians I have loved and trusted have “ALL” been like Judas towards me because I dare to think for myself…I am torn between 2 gods these days…The god of truth and the god of faith, both are poles apart from each other…Makes my life very difficult? If god is real, then he is doing some crazy stuff to me…Anyways, enough about me, I just hope I don’t get banned because I don’t take things sitting down…I will believe the truth and I want to believe in the God Of Jesus but I will not do it blindly ever again…God should at least understand and respect me for that and not ban me from hear without good cause…I hope to meet good Christian friends hear because that is something I have missed since loosing my faith in Christ…I am also hoping to gain some strength back into my faith by trying to have Christian friends again…So, Hi All.
Dear Chronicles, it is sad to hear that you lost your Christian faith in believing in God. But I hope we can encourage you. Believe me when I say this. I suffer a lot in my life as an Atheist...then like last year, a person from the internet told me all about Christ and God...then that last summer. I repented my sins to Christ and have Him as my Lord and Saviour. After all, He is the Saviour of the world. Anyway as more I read the Bible (KJV), I grow more into my Faith in Christ.If we take the whole Bible literally, it won't fit into the Word of God. Like a talking snake? Does snake talk? No! The word "serpent" is a characteristic of a man. That man in Genesis 3 is Satan the fallen angel. The Bible is full of symbolic, therefore shouldn't taken everything literally...as I said, It won't fit into the REAL Truth. You must know when the Bible verse needs to be taken literally or symbolic. I hope that helps.Welcome to Christianity Board Chronicles.Jag
 

Chronicles

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Dear Chronicles, it is sad to hear that you lost your Christian faith in believing in God. But I hope we can encourage you. Believe me when I say this. I suffer a lot in my life as an Atheist...then like last year, a person from the Internet told me all about Christ and God...then that last summer. I repented my sins to Christ and have Him as my Lord and Savior. After all, He is the Savior of the world. Anyway as more I read the Bible (KJV), I grow more into my Faith in Christ.
G’day Jag, Nice to hear that your new faith in God, Christ and the Bible is helping you or making you happier…You sound like me 20 yrs ago, when I became born again at 23 yrs old and gave my whole, heart mind and soul to the things of god…People thought I was Crazy…Is that happening for you?It didn’t matter that I sounded Crazy to all my friends and family because the love and faith I had in god, no man could take from me, but truth and Knowledge eventually did…
If we take the whole Bible literally, it won't fit into the Word of God. Like a talking snake? Does snake talk? No! The word "serpent" is a characteristic of a man. That man in Genesis 3 is Satan the fallen angel. The Bible is full of symbolic, therefore shouldn't take everything literally...as I said, It won't fit into the REAL Truth. You must know when the Bible verse needs to be taken literally or symbolic. I hope that helps.
I understand what your saying Jag but you will find that over the next 10 to 15 yrs you will change your beliefs in what you think the bible means many times…The more theological minded you are the more this will happen…The Bible is simply not clear cut to understand and proof of that is the multitude of diverse doctrines within the Christian community, all arguing and contradicting each other because of different biblical views…The bible meaning is not clear cut…
So what lies have turned you away. I turned from the faith for 15years because I thought, as you seem to. I opened myself up to Gods love and guidance and He has shown me the error of my ways. Please share your questions and evidence, I wont judge you but I will be more than happy to discuss with you.
G’day Robin, thanks for being willing to discuss these things without wanting to judge me for my view of things or my beliefs or my experiences, I really do appreciate your sincerity.I will do my best to share my questions and evidence and will try to explain the many lies I feel have been taught to me concerning God and who he is…I hope this doesn’t get to long but it could be unavoidable :study:
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First, a quick testimony…I’m over 40 yrs old. I grew up atheist and like Jag, suffered greatly doing it until I tried to kill myself at 20 yrs while in great dispair…I believe God revealed himself to me through what I latter believed to be “the holy ghost” at that time…I believe god intervened and answered a prayer of mine when I was 6 yrs old but I had forgotten about that, so at 20 yrs, I recalled it just before “killing myself” and prayed to God once again (2nd prayer in my life and I was already 20 yrs)…Well, I believed that god touched me and showed me that he was always with me and I was never alone…That changed my life, gave me faith in god and I gained enough hope to go on…It took 3 yrs but eventually I Gave my life to Christ and followed after god were ever my faith in him led me…So, At 23 yrs old, I became a fully blown born again Christian who had my whole life changed literally over night…I went on to convert many people by sharing the love of god through Jesus Christ by the holy ghost…Over the next 15 yrs, I went through what most Christians go through with there faith and experiences…I personally was highly motivated by theology and studying the bible and that has caused maybe more problems for me than most…O.K. how did I loose my faith in “the Bible” first, then Jesus and the holy ghost and these days I still struggle to keep my faith in God, the God who saved me and showed me that he was with me always…I still hold onto that hope…I have experienced some very intense experiences with a personal relationship with god so that is hard to let go off. I don’t want to let go of it but I think I eventually will because I have learned that there are more explanations than just the obvious…That is pretty much the cause of it all right there, “I have learned that there is more explanations than just the obvious”…O.K. with that I will explain the course that lead me away from The Bible and Christ…Over those 15 yrs I believed the bible taught numerous things that I then often changed according to further studies…I learned There is at least 3 different biblical possibilities to almost every Christian doctrine. Over that 15 yr course I probably believed most of them. Let me give you some examples;The Godhead – some believe the trinity, some believe that Jesus was the messiah and not god himself and others believe that he was god himself on earth and that there is only one god and Jesus is He…I believed that Jesus was God in flesh and that god was one until I changed that belief and believed that Jesus was the messiah and not god himself and then I went on to not even believe in a messiah at all (I will explain that)…I have never believed that the Bible teaches the trinity but it seems most Christians do…Again;Eternal Life – Some believe we go to heaven and hell when we die, others believe that Jesus will return one day and raise the dead and sit judgment and therefore the dead are in there graves until then…others believe we go to be with Jesus after death until he resurrects our bodies at judgment and there are many other varying views on this…I believed in heaven and hell…I then renounced that for the belief of the resurrection from the dead at Judgment and now days I believe that when I die that is it, it is all over…we are dead.Again;I wont even get into the apocalyptic and biblical prophetic beliefs of Christians because they range so fare and wide, all using the bible as there source…I was strong on Biblical prophecy until History showed me a lot of those answers were fulfilled in the past…Eventually the book of Enoch and Biblical apocalyptic writings of the classical era revealed the mythology behind it all, even the Jewish Idea of a messiah… these days I do not believe anyone can foresee the future through divine intervention or Divine foresight at all…Again;Some believe Christians will speak in an unknown tongue and this is spiritual prayer while others believe that these tongues are a gift and is the ability to speak foreign languages like the apostles on Pentecost while others think this gift is past and not in use today at all…I spoke in tongues and always wondered how it was supposed to help me in anything and over many years of speaking in tongues, it really has never done a single thing for me except maybe make my thinking mind shut up but I can do that by chanting also or just saying, lalalalalalalalala…So, These days, I don’t believe in tongues…I know how it all works and why people do it, because I was one of them…Again;Salvation – Some say once save always saved, some say predestination, some say twice dead and plucked up by the roots…I believed I was saved through the blood of Christ regardless of the constant hopeless mistakes I made until I believed that salvation can only be lost if you denied Christ…These days I don’t believe that at all…I have denied Christ and I do not feel condemned by god or dammed at all…In fact, I feel as saved as ever…God still shows me that he is with me, nothing at all has changed there.Baptism – some sprinkle children while others say that’s useless…Some insist that you must baptize in Jesus name (as the bible does 8 times) and not in the names “father son holy ghost” as was never done in scripture…Others believe that you do have to be baptized to be saved while others say you don’t, it’s by your confession…I could go on for ever about all the differences within Christian beliefs simply because the bible is so complicated that it does not have clear cut meaning…This is due to it being written by many people with varying ideas, creating different themes and views…The main uniting belief of Christians is that Jesus is the son of God who died and rose again and rose into heaven, sitting at gods hand of power…The problem is that it is this part of the gospels concerning Jesus death, burial and resurrection that we get the most contradictions of all, from the 4 gospels…It seems that they can’t get this part of there story straight…If the 4 gospels had to give account of the death burial and resurrection to a court of law, the evidence would be so contradictory that the jury would have to find that these writers are not eye witnesses by any means…They simply can’t get there story straight, not even the crucifixion day is the same…By this time, I wanted answers that the bible simply could not give…Answers like, Why did Judas betray Jesus or was James and Jude Jesus blood Brothers or what was the situation with Joseph and marry…many simple questions just to expand my understanding of biblical times.Eventually I went to the apocrypha to try to find some answers to many small curiosities I had that the bible was not clear on…I read so many ancient Christian and Jewish apocryphal books to try to expand my understanding of the bible and it did do that for me…Then one day I stumbled on a Jewish apocalyptic work called “the book of Enoch”…This book fascinated me so much because it answered so many unanswered biblical questions…I was taken up by it and realized that the early new testament writers had used this book as a source for many of the new testament beliefs…I had no doubt of that because I had become an expert at Bible theology and TBOE paralleled almost perfectly with bible writers prior to the first century…Then I saw that The Book Of Jude (in the Bible) even claimed TBOE was divinely inspired by God. Divine scripture, like the Bible is to Christians…Hear is a quote from “The Book of Jude” (A book in the bible and some claim Jude to be Jesus brother). Jude 1 14 And Enoch also, the seventh from Adam, prophesied of these, saying, Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints, 15 To execute judgment upon all, and to convince all that are ungodly among them of all their ungodly deeds which they have ungodly committed, and of all their hard speeches which ungodly sinners have spoken against him. This is a “Direct” Quote from the book of Enoch En ii axis 2Behold, he comes with ten thousands of his saints, to execute judgment upon them, and destroy the wicked, and reprove all the carnal for everything which the sinful and ungodly have done, and committed against him.In Christianity and Judaism, if you claim someone prophesied something you are claiming it is god’s divine word….My point hear is that “The Book Of Enoch” was used by early Christians as divine scripture and this can be proved in so many ways…This quote from TBOE is also spoken of in revelations, Hebrews, Thessalonians 1 and 2, 1 & 2 Peter and other places in the bible also…I was in shake and awe…it amplified my faith 100 times because it showed the ability of prophecy and foresight concerning Jesus and the whole Jewish nation, I was fascinated until I started to study the history behind the book and read that Enoch did not write this book, it was written by apocalyptic Jews around 150bce and made to look like Enoch foresaw all of this stuff…I was very disappointed and felt I had been conned big time by a fraudulent Jewish writer of the 2nd century BC, claiming to Be Enoch thousands of yrs earlier…The more I looked the more I realized that the whole Christian faith was built around the fact that TBOE was divine prophesy…I realized that Jesus cast demons out because that’s what TBOE teaches. I then realized that the whole idea of a messiah that was rampant by Jesus time, was amplified and even created by TBOE (even thou there are earlier promises of another great Jewish King (Messiah if you like) in Hebrew writings…It was these prophecy’s that TBOE was amplifying and exaggerating that was causing such crazy Jewish Hype and myth about Fallen Angels and giants, evil spirits/Demons and all kinds of Myths which were also inline with Greek mythology (Considering TBOE was written under Greek occupation and influence)…I come to realize and believe that Jesus whole ministry was based on his idea of what this messiah was supposed to be and do according to TBOE and apocalyptic Jewish ideas of that time period, also practiced by John, The Essense and other Jewish sects, even Pharisees…Messianic beliefs were at fervor pitch in Judea and Galilee in Jesus time, it wasn’t hard to pull off being the messiah, hundreds did it…the best of wich seems to be a Jew named Simon bar Kokhba [url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Simon_Bar_Kokhba]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Simon_Bar_Kokhba[/url]who created an indipendant state called Israel and had even coins made with his name and messiah stamped on them…Problem was that 3 yrs later Rome came back and destroyed him and his following…A typical end for another Jewish massiah…I Believe Jesus believed he was this messiah. He went out of his way to fulfill prophecy to fit the predicted figure of messiah…These things didn’t take place naturally but rather Jesus made them happen to make himself the main candidate for messiah. I.E. the donkey, coming into the temple, damning the religious leaders creating his own authority as a Prophet and then hands himself over to become a scarifies for Jerusalem in hope that god will forgive her…What a powerful man with a single minded mission to redeem the sins of Jerusalem through his own blood…Crazy times he lived in… Jesus was a religious fanatic willing to die for his faith, only Jesus was willing to die in the hope of saving his people…That’s what made him a true prophet of Israel…He stood in the gap…This was the Job of the prophet…This does not make it all true though…This was a result of the times and religious fanaticism which was at it’s height in Judea at this time…The Christian religion started from the actions of this man Jesus but really it started much earlier with this amplified messianic hope that took off a couple of hundred yrs before Jesus until about 100 yrs after Christ when Rome expelled all Jews from Judea and Galilee and called it Palestine around 130 ad…It gets long and complicated but that’s the gist of it…I eventually learned enough to know that you couldn’t trust these crazy 1st century Jews and there Crazy beliefs any more than we can trust Greek mythology of the same era or scientology from our era or any other cultish religious fanatically unrealistic belief system…I went on to study Jewish History between 300bce to 100ce, reading everything written in that era…I came to believe that apocalyptic writing and prophecy is all the same…it is told in hindsight and made to look like foresight…For Example;The gospels claim that Jesus predicted the fall of the temple and the destruction of Jerusalem but when I a closer look is taken, I see that it is widely believed by scholars that all 4 gospels are written after the fall of Jerusalem and written in hindsight of the whole thing…So then, I think, what about Paul, he wrote in the 50’s and 60’s and the temple was destroyed in 70ad…I thought and realized that Paul did not mention that Jesus foresaw the destruction of the temple and Jerusalem…he doesn’t mention it once and he is very big on apocalyptic thinking also…The temple was still the main center for Jews and Christians and Paul would have mentioned this but instead he tells us crazy stories about the dead in Christ raising and Christ returning in the clouds and his saints being caught up to be with him before he comes in the clouds in judgment with 10,000 saints because this is exactly what TBOE teaches…This is common 1st century Jewish/Christian apocalyptic thinking. No mention of a temple being destroyed until it actually happened though…In Jesus time the Jews expected Elijah to return in person because he went into heaven without dieing but he never did…Jesus claimed john was Elijah in spirit but that doesn’t fit what was supposed to happen…Today we all wait for Jesus to return for the same reasons, because he supposedly rose from the dead and is alive so we wait his return still like they did for Elijah who never came back??? Will someone say Jesus has returned in spirit one day and that will be accepted like it was for Elijah and john?In the end I had so many situations and issues on things like this that I quickly realized that the Bible was no different to TBOE…The whole thing is based on Jewish apocalyptic mythology and the whole Christian religion is all based on the same Jewish apocalyptic mythology because Jesus, John, Paul and the rest of the apostles were all “Apocalyptic Jews”…That’s how all this got started…So, these days, I do not believe the bible is the word of god…in fact, I think those Jews didn’t have much of a clue at all on what god is really like…Anyways, that’s been the general and brief course I have taken to get were I am…I am reading Josephus at the moment…he is a Jewish historian who wrote around the same time as the 4 gospels are written, so it is very interesting reading considering Josephus was not a Christian…I still hunger after the things of the bible and almost live in the first century sometimes but I have lost my faith in a messiah by doing this…Just to give a little idea on the comparisons of TBOE and the New Testament, I will paste some comparison scriptures…If an angel of God revealed to the Apostle John concerning the Apocalypse by a vision while in Patmos, as the book of revelation claims, then why does the book of revelation directly quote TBOE several times??? En xlviiHe sat upon the throne of his glory, while the books of the living where opened in his presance, and while all the powers which were above the heavens stood around and before him. En lIn those days shall the earth deliver up from her womb, and hell deliver up from hers, that which it has received, and destruction shall restore that which it owes, he shall select the righteous and holy from among them. En livIn those days shall the mouth of hell be opened into which they shall be immerged; hell shall destroy and swallow up sinners from the face of the elect.En xl 1After this I beheld thousands of thousands, and ten thousand times ten thousand, and an infinite number of people, standing before the lord of spirits. En xlv 3In that day shall the elect one sit upon a throne of glory and shall choose their conditions and countless habitationsOK, I will put some of Revelations to this…Rev 11: 13-15I saw a great white throne and him that sat on it…and I saw the dead, small and great, standing before the throne; and the books were opened and another book was opened. Which is the book of life and the dead where judged out of those things that where written in the books, according to there works. The sea gave up the dead that where in it and death and hell delivered up the dead that where in them…who soever was not found in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire Rev v11I beheld and heard the voice of many angels round about the throne…the number of them was 10,000 times 10,000, and thousands of thousands.I am also thinking of Mathew 25 31-32Then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory and before him shall be gathered all nations and he shall separate them from one another. And John 14:2In my father's house are many habitations.I will stick with Revelations ok because I am thinking of so many comparisons in other new testament books but to make a stronger point I want to stick with revelations because I believe Enoch was the main source to the writer of Revelations therefore it wasn’t given to john in a vision by an angel…So, hears more En xlv 4In that day I will cause my elect one to dwell in the midst of themRev 7:15He that sits upon the throne shall dwell among them…En xcii 17 The former heaven shall depart and pass away and a new heaven shall appearRev 22:1I saw a new heaven and a new earth for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away En xlviii 1-7In that day I beheld a fountain of righteousness, which never failed, encircled by many springs of wisdom. Of those who drank, and were filled with wisdom, have their habitation with the righteous, the elect and the holy. Rev 21:6 I will give unto him that is athirst of the fountain of the water of life freely.And againEn ii xxvi 2Behold, he comes with ten thousands of his saints, to execute judgment upon them, and destroy the wicked, and reprove all the carnal for everything which the sinful and ungodly have done, and committed against him.Jude 1 14 And Enoch also, the seventh from Adam, prophesied of these, saying, Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints, 15 To execute judgment upon all, and to convince all that are ungodly among them of all their ungodly deeds which they have ungodly committed. So, my point hear is that TBOE is probably the main source of revelations ..I want to go one step further and add that who ever wrote a lot of the new testament books (including Paul) most definatly used TBOE as one of there sources…Look at this apocalyptic view in Enoch and tell me if it sounds very much like Jesus apocalyptic message concerning the coming of the son of man and the end of the world in the gospels; En lxxixIn the days of sinners the days shall be shortened…and everything done on earth shall be subverted and disappear in it's season, in those days, the fruit of the earth shall not flourish in there season. Heaven shall stand still, the moon shall change it's laws and not be seen at it's proper periods and all the classes of stars shall be shut up against sinners and trouble shall seize them when they shall behold this son of woman sitting upon the throne of his glory. Mathew 24There shall be famines and earthquakes in diverse places, great tribulation such as was not since the beginning to this time, no, nor ever shall be and except those days be shortened there should be no flesh saved. immediately after the tribulation of those days, the sun shall be darkened and the moon shall not give her light and the stars will fall from heaven…then shall the tribes of the earth morn and they shall see the son of man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory… The question for me is;Did Jesus read Enoch and then teach this???Or did Jesus disciples read Enoch and then write the gospels as though Jesus said this??Why does it uses all the same ideas as TBOE as though TBOE was the writers main source used to write Revelations??? TBOE was written 200yrs before Revelations.Keep in mind that an angel also came and revealed all these things to Enoch in TBOE but I think it is clear to say that Enoch did not write this book nor did he see these things via an angel of god because Enoch Supposedly lived before the flood of Noah and we know TBOE was written in 2nd century BC, not in prehistory when writing was non-existent…There is so many things just in this post alone that make me skeptical of trusting the bible as divine in any way shape or form...All this has only happened because of a Christian craving of mine for the scriptures and there meaning...That is what lead me hear...:pray:
 

Jordan

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Apr 6, 2007
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(Chronicles;23654)
(thesuperjag;23613)
Dear Chronicles, it is sad to hear that you lost your Christian faith in believing in God. But I hope we can encourage you. Believe me when I say this. I suffer a lot in my life as an Atheist...then like last year, a person from the internet told me all about Christ and God...then that last summer. I repented my sins to Christ and have Him as my Lord and Saviour. After all, He is the Saviour of the world. Anyway as more I read the Bible (KJV), I grow more into my Faith in Christ.
G’day Jag,Nice to hear that your new faith in God, Christ and the Bible is helping you or making you happier…You sound like me 20 yrs ago, when I became born again at 23 yrs old and gave my whole, heart mind and soul to the things of god…People thought I was Crazy…Is that happening for you?It didn’t matter that I sounded Crazy to all my friends and family because the love and faith I had in god, no man could take from me, but truth and Knowledge eventually did…Nobody will ever take that Truth away from. Is everybody thinking that I'm crazy? Yes, but I don't care what the world thinks, because the world hates Christ and the Word of God. And I'm going keep on saying Truth. I have this desire to lift up everyone's soul...hopefully especially you. Too much coming true from this Bible. (Chronicles;23654)
(thesuperjag;23613)
If we take the whole Bible literally, it won't fit into the Word of God. Like a talking snake? Does snake talk? No! The word "serpent" is a characteristic of a man. That man in Genesis 3 is Satan the fallen angel.The Bible is full of symbolic, therefore shouldn't take everything literally...as I said, It won't fit into the REAL Truth. You must know when the Bible verse needs to be taken literally or symbolic. I hope that helps.
I understand what your saying Jag but you will find that over the next 10 to 15 yrs you will change your beliefs in what you think the bible means many times…The more theological minded you are the more this will happen…The Bible is simply not clear cut to understand and proof of that is the multitude of diverse doctrines within the Christian community, all arguing and contradicting each other because of different biblical views…The bible meaning is not clear cut…I will never back down from the Truth. Quite frankly. I'm going to tick off Satan. As long I know the Truth of how Cain was born and what happened in the Garden of Eden... I will not go back to my old way.The Word of God is NOT a myth. And never will be. As long as I know the Kenites (sons of Cain - Satan's offspring) still exists in this world. I will never back down from Christ and the Living Word. These Kenites is killing everyone spiritually even you.I know what the world is like...Luke 21:17 - And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake.John 15:18 - If the world hate you, ye know that it hated me before it hated you,John 8:32 - And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.John 8:36 - If the Son therefore shall make you free, ye shall be free indeed.Jag
 

Chronicles

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Nov 21, 2007
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I will never back down from the Truth.
I’m not sure what you mean by “The Truth” hear?? For me, fact established via evidence = Truth…i.e. one plus one = two or the earth goes around the sun…Belief via faith does not and can not = Truth …That is simply not “The Truth” Jag…that’s faith…Shouldn’t you be saying, “I will never back down from my faith”…Aren’t you getting Truth mixed up with Faith hear or did I miss something…
Quite frankly. I'm going to tick off Satan. As long I know the Truth of how Cain was born and what happened in the Garden of Eden... I will not go back to my old way.
I am not sure of what Truth or belief you are referring to concerning the birth of Cane. Can you elaborate on that?And again, isn’t this wrong wording again…Shouldn’t it be, “As long I “continue to Believe“ how Cain was born and what happened in the Garden of Eden... I will not go back to my old way.
The Word of God is NOT a myth. And never will be.
When you say "The Word Of God" I assume you mean "The Bible" right??Have you done much study on ancient mythology Jag? For you to make a strong statement like this, I would assume you have done extensive studies to be so sure of this…Have you??I have…would you like to see how much a myth Adam and Eve is…You don’t have to look far…It’s textbook mythology mate…
As long as I know the Kenites (sons of Cain - Satan's offspring) still exists in this world. I will never back down from Christ and the Living Word. These Kenites is killing everyone spiritually even you.
I am not sure I understand what your saying hear…can you elaborate for me??Keep in mind that If the flood of Noah is true according to the Bible, then mankind was wiped out totally, only leaving Noah’s family and they were from Seth line, not Cane’s, so how is there any of canes line left alive? Wouldn’t that be unscriptural?Maybe I misunderstood…Please explain:)
 

Pariah

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Hi Chronicles!Nice ta meetcha!!The resurrection can be a difficult concept to grasp, especially if there are three hidden harvests that makes up the Kingdom of God as a whole.Luke 13: 20And again he said, Whereunto shall I liken the kingdom of God? 21It is like leaven, which a woman took and hid in three measures of meal, till the whole was leavened. Matthew says the same thing primarily in Matthew 13:33.Thus it led me to understand the reason why Jesus mentioned the three watches.Luke 13: 37Blessed are those servants, whom the lord when he cometh shall find watching: verily I say unto you, that he shall gird himself, and make them to sit down to meat, and will come forth and serve them.38And if he shall come in the second watch, or come in the third watch, and find them so, blessed are those servants. 39And this know, that if the goodman of the house had known what hour the thief would come, he would have watched, and not have suffered his house to be broken through.So it is our understanding the knowledge of what is hidden in regards to the resurrection pertaining to those particular harvest that we need wisdom from the Lord to apply.Have you ever regarded the statistical probability of eight prophecies being fulfilled in one person? The answer is ... 1 in 10 to the 17th power, i.e. 1 in 100,000,000,000,000,000).Jesus trying to fulfill all those prophecies and being able to control elements outside of his control to fulfill them... like raising from the dead would be a very daunting task that only God can do.1.Betrayed by a friend. (Psalms 41:9; Matthew 26:49). 2.Thirty pieces of silver (Zechariah 11:12; Matthew 26:15). 3.Betrayal money cast to the floor of the temple (Zechariah 11:13; Matthew 27:5). 4.Betrayal money used to buy the potter’s field (Zechariah 11:13: Matthew 27:7). 5.Forsaken and deserted by his disciples (Zechariah 13:7; Mark 14:50). 6.Accused by false witnesses (Psalms 35:11; Matthew 26:59-60). 7.Silent before His accusers (Isaiah 53:7; Matthew 27:12). 8.Wounded and bruised (Isaiah 53:5; Matthew 27:26). 9.Hated without a cause (Psalm 69:4; John 15:25). 10.Struck and spat upon (Isaiah 50:6; Matthew 26:67). 11.Mocked, ridiculed and rejected (Isaiah 53:3; Matthew 27:27-31 and John 7:5, 48). 12.Collapse from weakness (Psalms 109:24-25; Luke 23:26). 13.Taunted with specific words (Psalms 22:6-8; Matthew 27:39-43). 14.People will shake their heads at Him (Psalms 109:25; Matthew 27:39). 15.People will stare at Him (Psalms 22:17; Luke 23:35). 16.Executed among “sinners” (Isaiah 53:12; Matthew 27:38). 17.Hands and feet will be pierced (Psalms 22:16; Luke 23:33). 18.Will pray for his persecutors (Isaiah 53:12; Luke 23:34). 19.Friends and family will stand afar off and watch (Psalms 38:11; Luke 23:49). 20.Garments will be divided and won by the casting of lots (Psalms 22:18; John 19:23-24). 21.Will thirst (Psalms 69:21; John 19:28). 22.Will be given gall and vinegar (Psalms 69:21; Matthew 27:34). 23.Will commit Himself to God (Psalms 31:5; Luke 23:46). 24.Bones will be left unbroken (Psalms 34:20; John 19:33). 25.Heart will rupture (Psalm 22:14; John 19:34). 26.Side will be pierced (Zechariah 12:10; John 19:34). 27.Darkness will come over the land at midday (Amos 8:9; Matthew 27:45). 28.Will be buried in a rich man’s tomb (Isaiah 53:9; Matthew 27:57-60). 29.Will die 438 years after the declaration of Artaxerxes to rebuild the temple in 444 BC (Daniel 9:24). 30.Will be raised from the dead (Psalms 16:10; Acts 2:31), ascend to heaven (Psalms 68:18; Acts 1:9) and be seated the right hand of God in full majesty and authority (Psalms 110:1; Hebrews 1:3). I personally foresaw my own future from when I was a tot, and still getting prophetic dreams now. No one can believe them until it happens to you. So I cannot share anything on that part to strengthen your faith other than this verse that a believer may be shown what is to come.John 16: 13Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come. I would not tote it as evidence of salvation anymore than other have with tongues. It is simply written that we will know Him for He is in us as you testified that God is still with you.There is a speaking in tongues that is of the world. That is the kind which is gibberish and not from the Holy Spirit since He would only put words on your mouth to speak in foreign langauges. People have rationalize the lack of interpretation as being a prayer language with God, but it is written:1 Corinthians 12: 7But the manifestation of the Spirit is given to every man to profit withal. 8For to one is given by the Spirit the word of wisdom; to another the word of knowledge by the same Spirit; 9To another faith by the same Spirit; to another the gifts of healing by the same Spirit; 10To another the working of miracles; to another prophecy; to another discerning of spirits; to another divers kinds of tongues; to another the interpretation of tongues:11But all these worketh that one and the selfsame Spirit, dividing to every man severally as he will. I believe that to seperate biblical tongues from the world's type tongues, God would provide an intepretor as well. People got these tongues by looking for the Spirit to fall on them to give it to them as there is a Pentecostal doctrine out preaching "another baptism" of the Holy Spirit with evidence of tongues. This is hersey and of the world. That is why the tongues you got, did nothing for you, for it was unfruitful as your understanding was.1 Corinthians 14:13Wherefore let him that speaketh in an unknown tongue pray that he may interpret. 14For if I pray in an unknown tongue, my spirit prayeth, but my understanding is unfruitful. 15What is it then? I will pray with the spirit, and I will pray with the understanding also: I will sing with the spirit, and I will sing with the understanding also. So praying in tongues without the understanding as being no interpretor provided, means the tongues you got came from the rudiment of the world as they seek after other spirits.As far as denying Him goes, well, you would be in jeopardy of being left behind when judment falls on the House of God first, but you were bought with a price and as you have testified, He is still with you, and here is why.2 Timothy 2: 10Therefore I endure all things for the elect's sakes, that they may also obtain the salvation which is in Christ Jesus with eternal glory. 11It is a faithful saying: For if we be dead with him, we shall also live with him: 12If we suffer, we shall also reign with him: if we deny him, he also will deny us: 13If we believe not, yet he abideth faithful: he cannot deny himself. 14Of these things put them in remembrance, charging them before the Lord that they strive not about words to no profit, but to the subverting of the hearers. 15Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth. 16But shun profane and vain babblings: for they will increase unto more ungodliness. 17And their word will eat as doth a canker: of whom is Hymenaeus and Philetus; 18Who concerning the truth have erred, saying that the resurrection is past already; and overthrow the faith of some. 19Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, The Lord knoweth them that are his. And, let every one that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity. 20But in a great house there are not only vessels of gold and of silver, but also of wood and of earth; and some to honour, and some to dishonour. 21If a man therefore purge himself from these, he shall be a vessel unto honour, sanctified, and meet for the master's use, and prepared unto every good work. 22Flee also youthful lusts: but follow righteousness, faith, charity, peace, with them that call on the Lord out of a pure heart. 23But foolish and unlearned questions avoid, knowing that they do gender strifes. 24And the servant of the Lord must not strive; but be gentle unto all men, apt to teach, patient, 25In meekness instructing those that oppose themselves; if God peradventure will give them repentance to the acknowledging of the truth; 26And that they may recover themselves out of the snare of the devil, who are taken captive by him at his will.So here's hoping the Lord shall strengthen your faith to confess Him before men again.As far as the Book of Enoch goes, anything the Jews regard not as authoritative, should not be taken as authoritative either. Gnostics writings were created and found from Alexnadria files where all other bible versions were transcribed from, except for the KJV. The Catholics included them with the Septuagint, but eventually, it got left out of the Bible due to heresey found within. I believe that Enoch translation into third heaven exposed it as a heresey when it included the Terrible place where the wicked are tortured. Other reasons for being left out was angels having relations to women, creating demons out of them and such, but I would think the one I found by the grace of God, ought to have been the primary kicker. All of this shows poetic license was being used here. As far as how old it was, the only thing that was determined that it looked old. One really has to wonder how they found it, and how well it was preserved in regards to others as in.. cracked seal? Did someone that used poetic license, did not preserve it right away to give it age? All of this comes to mind when the Jews did not regard it as authoritative since they ought to know if it was one of The Books or not.Water baptism was a requirement for the Jews as they were identified with God by the deeds of the Law.. or the Old Covenant. For them to confess their new faith in God to be identified by the New Covenant, they had to die to the Old Covenant first by water baptism before receiving the Holy Ghost.. thus the words of immersion comes to mind of dying to old self and now emerge as a new creature in Christ.. and thus the Jews get filled with the Holy Spirit.Matthew 9: 17Neither do men put new wine into old bottles: else the bottles break, and the wine runneth out, and the bottles perish: but they put new wine into new bottles, and both are preserved.That is why there is not another baptism of the Holy Spirit with evidence with tongues because of this promise for all those that come to Jesus.John 6: 35And Jesus said unto them, I am the bread of life: he that cometh to me shall never hunger; and he that believeth on me shall never thirst.Thus when the Gentiles got the Holy Ghost at the moment they heard the Gospel and believed, before they were baptized with water, it was because they were not identified with God by the Old Covenant, but were sinners in need of the Saviour. They did not seek after the Spirit. It was given to them as promised by God for beliving on Jesus.Ephesians 1:12That we should be to the praise of his glory, who first trusted in Christ. 13In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise, 14Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory. 15Wherefore I also, after I heard of your faith in the Lord Jesus, and love unto all the saints,Water baptism for the Gentiles just served as a public witness as confession by the mouth is made unto salvation.Romans 10: 8But what saith it? The word is nigh thee, even in thy mouth, and in thy heart: that is, the word of faith, which we preach; 9That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved. 10For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.As far as verifiability of the eyewitnesses' accounts of the four gospels, consider this. Imagine a car accident at an intersection. You as a police officer are taking records of eyewitnesses accounts. Some will say the whole thing. Another will leave out something. Another will say the same thing but in a different way or recalled it differently. Some may know of certain details but left it out in favor of the way he wants to share the event as to what had happened. All of these descrepancies would give you, the police officer, as to the general idea of what has exactly happened, especially if when several reports taken seperately match up as others only give support to what has matched up. Then you proceed with the evidence of the car wreck and found it to be true. As you are reading Josephus, that can add support to the four Gospels.Josephus, in the book Jewish Antiquities" wrote: "At that time lived Jesus, a wise man, if he may be called a man; for he performed many wonderful works. He was a teacher of such men as received the truth with pleasure. . . .And when Pilate, at the instigation of the chief men among us, had condemned him to the cross, they who before had conceived an affection for him did not cease to adhere to him. For on the third day he appeared to them alive again, the divine prophets having foretold these and many other wonderful things concerning him. And the sect of the Christians, so called from him, subsists at this time" (Antiquities, Book 18, Chapter 3, Section 1). As far as Pauls' writings, I do believe he did mention the son of perdition.2 Thessalonians 2: 1Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him, 2That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand. 3Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition; 4Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God. 5Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things? 6And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time. In history, one may find the account where someone did that in the destruction of the Temple in A.D. 70. But, as in Jeremiah 50 and Isaiah 5, they both mirror double prophecies as they cite conditions and the similar judgments that would follow as they do in Revelations. Coincidence? Or that God's judgment is the same for dealing with sin? Thus as events in Israel are mounting to build that Temple as they found out they can as the Dome of the Rock would be in the outer courts... another prophecy as the outer courts would belong to the Gentiles for the third Temple... as technology of man buying and selling with a chip is becoming a reality and if those that do not get it, will be caused to be slain for not having the mark because they will not be able to buy and sell, thus die from thrist and starvation. Blessed are all those that die in the name of the Lord in that time, but I digress, don't I? Anyway... Paul spoke of the coming destruction of the Temple as we now see prophecies of the mark of the beats becoming a reality.The National I.D. Card is set up to deal with illegal aliens. But cards can be stolen and eventually frauds can be made as they get paid under the table. Then they have to go to the chip so as to not waste all taxpayers money in developing this extravagant system. And when they hype people into doing that, then they confront the problem that illegal aliens get paid under the table, thus with everyone having the chip, they just upgrade the system so that the chip already in them can buy and sell, thus like a lobster being broiled slowly alive in the kettle, so could the devil implement the mark of the beast without anyone so much as blinking an eye. This is just my stance against the National I.D. Card since it is not really dealing with illegal aliens as it is developing the system that will one day cause my future brothers and sisters in Christ to die for not being a part of this system, thus I not only abstain from that on that reason, but also for the fact that as a nation, we are not showing love for thy neighbor when we do that. I'm hoping the Lord will return to rescue the sleeping saints from this treachery so as to keep his promise that He will lose nothing and yet appear also to judge the House of God for not abiding in Him on other matters of faith so as to reprove them that they may be partakers of His grace. But as it is, just expounding a bit on the coming technology of the mark of the beast. Jesus may have referred John to be "like" Elijah, but Elijah may very well be one of the two prophets sent back to testify during the great tribulation.Anyway, Jesus is God as there are verses that refers to God as Saviour and God as Judge and yet Jesus is also mentioned in the verses as being that. If no other God is beside Him, then the Father and the Son are One as the Holy Spirit is One. It will take God to redeem His creation and God must provide the Way back to Himself through Himself and the adoption of living with Him after being bought is the promise of the Holy Spirit Whom is God as well... thus we shall live with God and never be seperated from Him again. Even those that get left behind are still His as it was prophesied that Judas wuld be the only one lost, but it was testified that he had never believed in the first place.But you did and thus are sealed. You are in danger of being left behind if you continue to deny Him, but you are His as He cannot deny Himself. here's praying the Lord shall restore the joy of your salvation so that you may rest in Him.Side note: Trinity is not spoken as a word as rapture is not spoken as a word in the Bible for trinity is a term to describe the verses that speaks of the Three Persons in One God as rapture speaks of a harvest.Anyway, may the Lord cause the increase for what was shared here.1 Corinthians 3: 5Who then is Paul, and who is Apollos, but ministers by whom ye believed, even as the Lord gave to every man? 6I have planted, Apollos watered; but God gave the increase. 7So then neither is he that planteth any thing, neither he that watereth; but God that giveth the increase.2 Timothy 2:18Who concerning the truth have erred, saying that the resurrection is past already; and overthrow the faith of some. 19Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, The Lord knoweth them that are his. And, let every one that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity. You are not alone in being led astray, brother. Just keep your eyes on Jesus.1 Peter 2: 25For ye were as sheep going astray; but are now returned unto the Shepherd and Bishop of your souls.
 

Chronicles

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Nov 21, 2007
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G’day Pariah, good to meet you…Interesting name mate, did you choose that because of the song by the band “ Lamb of God”??Doesn’t Pariah come from a Hindu god of music or drums?? I think Pariah is a Hindu spiritual term isn’t it?
The resurrection can be a difficult concept to grasp, especially if there are three hidden harvests that makes up the Kingdom of God as a whole.
This is an interesting biblical concept of yours…this is not universally believed by other Christians thou is it??
Have you ever regarded the statistical probability of eight prophecies being fulfilled in one person? The answer is ... 1 in 10 to the 17th power, i.e. 1 in 100,000,000,000,000,000).
I have never known of any prophecy that has ever been able to be interpreted before the event takes place…it is always claimed fulfillment in hindsight to make it fit a given situation…that can be done with almost any situation…In light of this, I think your statistic is flawed…Were did you get that from anyways??
Jesus trying to fulfill all those prophecies and being able to control elements outside of his control to fulfill them... like raising from the dead would be a very daunting task that only God can do.
I don’t think so, not when you understand how ancient Jewish apocalyptic thought and writing works…It seems likely to me that Jesus could have lived and taught what he did because he believed he was the messiah (Espesially after 40 day in the wilderness, thated do it for anyone), going out of his way to fulfill what he expected that messiah to do and be…He Gained a following who later established a Jewish sect (this was nothing new)…This sect believed Jesus to be that messiah…They search the scriptures to find Jesus as the prophesied messiah were ever they looked…The problem was that some of there scriptural interpretations were not very convincing to the average Jew of the first century…The Jews concept of messiah was very different…Some even waited for 2 messiah’s (a priest and a King) (Maybe John and Jesus)…Eventually we get church fathers arguing with Jews for the next couple hundred years over these claimed messianic prophecies and weather they belong to Jesus or not…There is many occasions were the early Christian fathers blatantly misinterpreted scripture, believing it was saying Jesus was the messiah when a lot of the time, it wasn’t even talking about a messiah…The Jews fervently argued these misinterpretations and it is very interesting to see how many times The Church fathers got there arguments wrong…Especially considering they were mostly gentile Christians interpreting Jewish scripture by this time…Great compilation of bible predictions concerning the messiah that you pasted. I have known about these scriptures from the beginning of my Christian conversion…it was Bible Prophecy that convinced me the most concerning who Jesus was. It was also Bible prophecy that caused me to eventually loose faith in the bibles ability to prophecy future events.When I go through this list, try to keep in mind that the gospels weren’t written for about 40 yrs after Jesus crucifixion…That helps to keep things in context…Also remember that these writers are trying to prove there belief that Jesus was the Messiah of Jewish prophecy…So, it isn’t surprising that they stretch there view to make it look that way at times…I even did that myself as a Christians as I watch most do also…Have you ever put some of these scriptures to a devout Jew and asked how they see them, if they don’t see it is about Jesus??? Lets look at some of this list…
1 .Betrayed by a friend. (Psalms 41:9; Matthew 26:49).
Mathew would claim this is a prophecy of Jesus as messiah but it seems clear to me that it isn’t even talking about messiah at all…It is a psalm of king David when he was running and hiding from his enemies…There really is no prophecy about this psalm that I can see…
2.Thirty pieces of silver (Zechariah 11:12; Matthew 26:15).
Again I believe the writer of Mathew has it all wrong hear and I believe Jews would agree with me on this…(Zechariah 11:12) is talking about the wages that Zechariah himself received from the Authorities (Priests) for his being a prophet to them…In V13 God tells him to throw it away in protest to them as what they think god and his servent are worth, so Zechariah cast it to the potter in the house of the lord…This doesn’t seem to have anything to do with Judas betraying Jesus??? I don’t know what The writer of Mathew was thinking???
5.Forsaken and deserted by his disciples (Zechariah 13:7; Mark 14:50).
Zechariah CH 12 & 13 are very interesting Jewish messianic Prophecy’s…The problem I have hear is how the N/T writers have called on certain verses and claimed that refers to Jesus without taking the whole context of these chapters into account…For Example;Both chapters appear to me to be referring to the same time period, always saying, “In that Day”…In 12:9 it claims that god will destroy all nations that come against Israel but this did not happened in Jesus day, in fact the opposite happened…In 12:11 –14 it claimed that all Jerusalem, Judea and Galilee will morn as over a great King…I don’t think Jesus was that popular or all Jews would have believed he was the Messiah but only a small sect believed…I must admit thou, this is an intriguing prophecy…I have been reading it and thinking about it for a while today and will continue to until I am settled with my understanding of it…
6.Accused by false witnesses (Psalms 35:11; Matthew 26:59-60).9.Hated without a cause (Psalm 69:4; John 15:25).12.Collapse from weakness (Psalms 109:24-25; Luke 23:26).14.People will shake their heads at Him (Psalms 109:25; Matthew 27:39). 19.Friends and family will stand afar off and watch (Psalms 38:11; Luke 23:49).
Again, these Psalm have nothing to do with messiah in my opinion…it is mostly about King David…
30.Will be raised from the dead (Psalms 16:10; Acts 2:31), ascend to heaven (Psalms 68:18; Acts 1:9) and be seated the right hand of God in full majesty and authority (Psalms 110:1; Hebrews 1:3).
These last three are debatable but I must keep it short…All Psalms again though...
7.Silent before His accusers (Isaiah 53:7; Matthew 27:12). 8.Wounded and bruised (Isaiah 53:5; Matthew 27:26).11.Mocked, ridiculed and rejected (Isaiah 53:3; Matthew 27:27-31 and John 7:5, 48).16.Executed among “sinners” (Isaiah 53:12; Matthew 27:38).28.Will be buried in a rich man’s tomb (Isaiah 53:9; Matthew 27:57-60).
This is another great chapter…you got me reading these prophecies again, lol…Although I need to give this Chapter a lot more thought, the things that I am thinking that challenge the N/T view is that 53:10-12 are talking about the return from Babylon (considering Isaiah didn’t write this part of the book, it was written at the end of Babylonian captivity according to most scholars). In V13 it specifies what the servant of god must endure and to be honest, most servants of god (Jewish Prophets) would fit this category…Even John The Baptist fits most of these descriptions because this is the life of a servant of god…It started by sounding like it was referring to anyone who became a servant of god and how they would suffer these things…Towards the end of Chapter 53 it became clear that The writer is referring to someone specific…Someone like Jesus...Maybe even Jesus?? I need more time on this one…(Psalms 22) like (Isaiah 52) is a very interesting Chapter that I think about a lot but I think about it from other sources and possibilities, not just what the N/T claims…You have to remember that the N/T was written in hindsight of all of these prophecies and makes it easy to fit them...It would be nice if I could trust the writers but I have read so many other fraudulent Christian writings of the same time period, so I am under no illusions that they won't exaggerate or even turn it into myth because that was the way of things then...Christianity was born in the middle of the age of mythology, so is it strange that the religion would have myths involved in it...that was the way they did things then...In Jesus time, the stories of Jesus miracles, resurrection and ascension were nothing new at all in antiquity...There were hundreds of saviors, resurrected and ascended ones...Even Mohammad Ascended into heaven...Are these common myths of the era or is it true for all claimants?? and why is it not happening any more if people are so often born of virgins and have gods for fathers (Hercules for one), doing miracles and raising from the dead, decends to hades and then ascends into the heavens...Jesus was one of many...Look it up!!The advantage we have that they didn’t, is a huge knowledge database that is literally at our finger tips these days…Shouldn’t we be more reliant on how man thinks today, some 2000 yrs later with 2000 yrs more information and knowledge to help establish these things??Out of the old testament, the only books you seem to be able to draw from to establish Jesus as a predicted messiah is Psalms, Isaiah and Zechariah with a small mention of Amos and Daniel…If this messianic hope came from the bible instead of other Jewish apocalyptic writings (i.e. TBOE), how come there is only a few books or rather a few of chapters in the whole of the O/T that you can draw from when the N/T seem to suggest it is all through the O/T??? What about “The son of man coming on the clouds with great power and glory with 10,000 of his saints to bring judgment to the world at the end of the age”…That is first class Christian apocalyptic thinking but were is that in the old testament???
I personally foresaw my own future from when I was a tot, and still getting prophetic dreams now. No one can believe them until it happens to you. So I cannot share anything on that part to strengthen your faith other than this verse that a believer may be shown what is to come.
I fully understand were your coming from hear because I practiced the same beliefs and said the same things when I was a Christian…I have learned since that there are more possibilities than what is obvious…This is how it worked for me;I would have a strong dream and wake up and put faith in what I had dreamed as from god and then interpreted these dreams and applied them to my life…There is power in faith, there is no doubt about that but I question weather faith is predicting the future or rather faith is creating “The Law Of Attraction”…Like I said, there are more than one possibility to explain this…In the end, I don’t believe anyone can foresee the future…I claimed to be able to myself for a long time but reality kicked in somewhere for me…We create these things through faith and then make them happen our selves, or so it seems to me.A good example would be the return of Israel to her homeland in this century…Was that bible prophecy being fulfilled or was it Jews (Zionists) that believed these prophecy’s and used there money and British power to make it happen because there faith told them god was giving the land back to them…Another one would be your 3rd temple…The gospel referred to the destruction of a 2nd temple built by Herod and destroyed in 70AD but if enough people believe, both Christians and Jews, that the bible predicts a third Temple and it must be build for messiah to come, then I would think it will very possibly happen…that’s not foresight, predestination or bible prophecy…Jesus didn’t look 2000 yrs into the future and speak of a 3rd temple when the 2nd was still standing… It’s just believing something and then making it happen through “The Law Of Attraction”…It is the same with Jesus as messiah…By the time he came, the expectations were so rife that all he had to do was follow the way he believed the messiah to be via scripture and everyone and everything else will fall into place…Not because it was foretold or foreordained by a bible prophecy of messiah but rather because they made it happen, Jesus and the Jews made it happen…Again, “The Law Of Attraction”, look it up!!!So, this is how I believe a lot of these prophecies that do look fulfilled come about…Predictions bring faith in something and that causes it to happen through the law of attraction, which is something Jesus practiced all the time
So here's hoping the Lord shall strengthen your faith to confess Him before men again.
Just going through some of those prophecies have strengthened my faith…Some have shown me that the N/T writers had there interpretations flawed but as for some of the O/T stuff, yes, it does make me question???
As far as the Book of Enoch goes, anything the Jews regard not as authoritative should not be taken as authoritative either.
The problem is that the N/T does claim it is authoritive;Hear is a quote from “The Book of Jude” (A book in the bible and some claim Jude to be Jesus brother). Jude 1 14 And Enoch also, the seventh from Adam, prophesied of these, saying, Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints, 15 To execute judgment upon all, and to convince all that are ungodly among them of all their ungodly deeds which they have ungodly committed, and of all their hard speeches which ungodly sinners have spoken against him. This is a “Direct” Quote from the book of Enoch En ii axis 2Behold, he comes with ten thousands of his saints, to execute judgment upon them, and destroy the wicked, and reprove all the carnal for everything which the sinful and ungodly have done, and committed against him.In Christianity and Judaism, if you claim someone prophesied something you are claiming it is god’s divine word….My point hear is that “The Book Of Enoch” was used by early Christians as divine scripture and this can be proved in so many ways…This one quote from TBOE is also spoken of in revelations, Hebrews, Thessalonians 1 and 2, 1 & 2 Peter and other places in the bible also…
As far as verifiability of the eyewitnesses' accounts of the four gospels, consider this. Imagine a car accident at an intersection. You as a police officer are taking records of eyewitness’s accounts. Some will say the whole thing. Another will leave out something. Another will say the same thing but in a different way or recalled it differently. Some may know of certain details but left it out in favor of the way he wants to share the event as to what had happened. All of these discrepancies would give you, the police officer, as to the general idea of what has exactly happened, especially if when several reports taken separately match up as others only give support to what has matched up. Then you proceed with the evidence of the car wreck and found it to be true.
This is a good analogy and you make a good point, however
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I am sure if someone was killed in the accident and someone else was being held accountable and looked at going to jail for it, then, a Jury situation again, the jury wont convict without a straight story…if the facts contradict each other according to the witnesses view points, then that would be a huge complication in getting to the truth of the story to be able to pass accurate judgment…
As you are reading Josephus, that can add support to the four Gospels.
Josephus is a great book and yes, it helps a little…I don’t doubt Jesus and James existed historicly…Josephus is more fond of Jame's it seems…Probably because Jesus was long dead (or raised) before Josephus knew about him… However Josephus does not say that he agrees that Jesus is the Christ he just says that some believe him to be…Christianity was already a well-founded sect/religion when Josephus wrote this…
As far as Pauls' writings, I do believe he did mention the son of perdition.
O.K. but this has nothing to do with Jesus predicting the destruction of the 2nd temple and Jerusalem in 70ad though does it?? What are you saying? Is there to be a 3rd temple built according to bible prophecy? No way mate, I will argue that till the cows come home…How open are you to different views on this:bible:? If it does happen I can guarantee you, it has nothing what so ever to do with Jesus predicting the fall of Herod's temple in his time period…The gospels speak of the destruction of the temple of Herod (it would be ridiculous to suggest that Jesus meant another 3rd temple when the 2nd one was still standing) and the 2nd temple is the one Jesus pointed to when he supposedly said it will all fall (he said something like, “see all this hear, not one stone will be left standing)…It was the 2nd temple that was destroyed that the gospels refer too…There is no doubt about that, They were not speaking of our time and a 3rd temple…you Just have to look at Luke’s version to see it was Rome and Titus who supposedly fulfilled this prediction of The Abomination that causes desolations (only it was written in foresight again)…It helps to know your history...Different people have different views on what they see the scriptures meaning…I have enjoyed reading your views and have even believed some of them myself before, however I do believe that your views of bible future prophecy are in really bad shape and need a full reevaluation…Honestly mate, 3rd temple, mark of the beast, national ID card, Elijah still returning and other things that I find profoundly unbiblical my friend…This is what I mean by making scripture say what ever you please…It sounds like you have read to many Christian fantasies like “late great planet earth” and “the left behind series”…These are pure fantasy mate, I wish you could see that for what it is…I to had my own crazy ideas about bible prophecy once…try this one…Different Christians have different meanings to all these things…This is how I saw and believed 2 Thessalonians 2 for years;2 Thessalonians 2: 1Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him, 2That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.Paul’s referring to his last letter, 1st Thessalonians, concerning the coming of Christ… 3Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first,Falling away from the truth of the Christian faith and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition; 4Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.I believed this man of sin was the Pope who sat in Christ’s seat, the temple of god… 5Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things? 6And now ye know what withhold that he might be revealed in his time. Rome withheld until the 10 Germanic tribes destroyed her and then “The little horn” the pope rose among them creating the Holy Roman Empire that ruled for nearly 1000 yrs…These days I believe those 10 kings are Selicide kings of Antiochus time…See how people can interpret scripture to fit what they want to believe…Christians have been doing this from the beginning…There was so many divers Christian sects even in Paul’s time(Only 20 yrs from Jesus crusafixion)…
In history, one may find the account where someone did that in the destruction of the Temple in A.D. 70. But, as in Jeremiah 50 and Isaiah 5, they both mirror double prophecies as they cite conditions and the similar judgments that would follow as they do in Revelations. Coincidence? Or that God's judgment is the same for dealing with sin?
No, not coincidence, haven’t you heard, “history repeats”, “there is nothing new under the sun” and like I said, it is easy to fit prophecy to any situation in hindsight…even time and time again, same prophecy different era...that's how easy it is to make them fit...It’s easy to make prophecy come to pass, Jesus clearly did that (remember the Donkey)…You can do it in foresight or hindsight...I can make WW2 look like Bible prophecy (even though I know it isn't) with antichrist (Hitler) persecuting gods people (Jews) 3rd of the world killed in war, another third to starvation...wars famine plagues...In the end, the establishment of israel again...This is way more believable than saying it is taking place now in today's world...I could probably get close to your 8 in 1 statistic with WW2 if i tried harder and it isn't even biblical prophecy
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... Your view of Bible prophecy with all this futurist stuff is “Totally” flawed in my opinion… I would be glad to expand on that only I am trying to keep it short…Remember, the N/T was written in the first century about the first century for the first century…That is obvious because it is obvious that both Jesus and Paul believed that the end of the world was in there generation…We can take this further if your interested.
Anyway, may the Lord cause the increase for what was shared here.
Well, I have defiantly increased, I have been at this, reading the bible to check what your saying, all day…Thanks, I couldn’t have spent my time better…hopefully it isn’t to long to read or respond to…
You are not alone in being led astray, brother. Just keep your eyes on Jesus.
I don’t believe I am being lead astray but rather I am being lead away from my faith and into rational, logical conclusions based upon information, knowledge and evidence…I do this so “I don’t get lead astray again” with believing things that are souly based upon faith without evidence…For example, would you class this as evidence; An angel of God could not have revealed to the Apostle John concerning the Apocalypse by a vision while in Patmos, as the book of revelation claims because the book of revelation directly quote TBOE several times, using it as an obvious source… Check comparison scriptures above in my previous posts…that is only a few of them, there are more…So how is it that John received it via a vision if the writer directly quotes another book many times to write it???Keep in mind that Enoch was also taken up in a vision by an angel and shown things to come…Only I think it is safe to say that Enoch didn’t write TBOE because it is typical Jewish apocalyptic writing of the 2nd century BCE and Enoch supposedly lived before the flood (Pre-History)…This is simply how apocalyptic writing is written…we have apocalypses of Adam, Noah, Abraham, Peter, Paul, James and on and on and on and they are all similar in style depending on what time period they fall into between about 200bce to 300ce…Lastly, just a couple of clear cut questions for you or anyone else because this is were I am stuck at the moment;Can you see for your self that the writer of revelations used TBOE as a direct source and if so, then how can we believe that John did receive it from an angel while in Patmos???Also, isn’t Jude making it clear in his book that TBOE is divinely inspired by god???Sorry, that was so long…I have to learn to shorten things…
 

Pariah

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Hi Chronicles!Pariah is to represent the outcast of society. Believers are not really to be of the world. I am using it to state the result of my alienation and tolerance even in familiy.As for the statistical analysis, you can find more info at this link below:The previous link did not work as I think it is because it is being presented at a "rapture ready site". So I decided to find the alternate link to the book itself for your viewing pleasure. You will find the info on that being presented by Professor W. Stoner, the author of "Science Speaks". So scroll down and view the books. I believe you will find the content on statistical probability eventually as well as other topics for enlightenment.http://www.geocities.com/stonerdon/science_speaks.htmlA reminder, if you are going to continue the search to strengthen your faith, you have to look also. Waiting for someone to give you the answers you seek doesn't really accomplish the quest if it is your journey. One may fall into the trap of what mockers do and just question everything presented. Unless you are trusting God to lead you to find Him and the Truth since He does want to have a personal relationship with you, you will always be receiving it in a "not sold yet" mode as in making a federal case for believing. There will always be questions. Believers will not know everything. But, you do know Him, even hough you have denied Him, yet you testified that God is still with you.Hebrews 11: 1Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen. When He appears at the rapture event to judge the House of God, the Holy Spirit may bring these scriptures in remembrance to those left behind. John 20: 28And Thomas answered and said unto him, My LORD and my God. 29Jesus saith unto him, Thomas, because thou hast seen me, thou hast believed: blessed are they that have not seen, and yet have believed.So as you know that God is with you, you have to know His promise in seeking answers.Matthew 7: 7Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you: 8For every one that asketh receiveth; and he that seeketh findeth; and to him that knocketh it shall be opened.But sometime our shortcomings or our understanding influenced by the wolrd is blocking out what the Lord is telling us and thus we have this basic fact of reality.1 Corinthians 13: 8Charity never faileth: but whether there be prophecies, they shall fail; whether there be tongues, they shall cease; whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away. 9For we know in part, and we prophesy in part. 10But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away. 11When I was a child, I spake as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child: but when I became a man, I put away childish things. 12For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known. 13And now abideth faith, hope, charity, these three; but the greatest of these is charity.Now let's ttake one example and see if the Lord shall enable you to receive the answer.Keep in mind that scriptures are to testify of Jesus.John 5: 39Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me. 40And ye will not come to me, that ye might have life.Your example below:
2.Thirty pieces of silver (Zechariah 11:12; Matthew 26:15). Again I believe the writer of Mathew has it all wrong hear and I believe Jews would agree with me on this…(Zechariah 11:12) is talking about the wages that Zechariah himself received from the Authorities (Priests) for his being a prophet to them…In V13 God tells him to throw it away in protest to them as what they think god and his servent are worth, so Zechariah cast it to the potter in the house of the lord…This doesn’t seem to have anything to do with Judas betraying Jesus??? I don’t know what The writer of Mathew was thinking???
That is understandable. But as scriptures testifies of Jesus, I do see the parallel as for the meaning. You stated it, but was not able to receive it.God tells him to throw it away in protest to them as what they think god and his servent are worth,Judas threw it away for receiving it as what betraying Jesus(God) was worth. I see it as scriptures testifying of Jesus. I see it as prophecy especially when Judas nor any other person would go out of their way to betray Jesus, to cast the reward away, and to hang himself just to fulfill God's spoken word & command against the action displaying what God and His servant is worth. God in His Sovereign control as in when He spoke, it is done, and thus when He spoke long time ago, it still stands supreme as His Word is carried out in His plan of salvation. I see that as God's Word standing against the fabric of time.Now maybe you still don't see it that way. Maybe you see the Bible as written by man and no prophecy is true till after the fact. As the mark of the beast is becoming a reality, can you really say that everything is hindsight? I can understand your skepticism as time is played out, but what about now? Here is a christian think tank that you might find interesting in your intellectual search for the truth. It is based on an extra-biblical source as a historian named Thallus, reports a solar eclipse at the time of the death of Jesus as well as other reports circulating.http://www.christian-thinktank.com/jrthal.htmlPretty cool, huh? Amazing how this is ignored by the world any findings that testifies of Jesus. Or how about any historical findings that testifies of God's intervention in the Old Testament like chariot wheels at the bottom of the Red Sea and skeletal rib cages with coarl formation on them?http://www.wyattmuseum.com/red-sea-crossing-04.htmBut the world with all of its research fundings are geared towards proving the evolutionary theory: and that is a sure way to get those grants.
What are you saying? Is there to be a 3rd temple built according to bible prophecy? No way mate, I will argue that till the cows come home…How open are you to different views on this?
I have heard opposing view so no need to bother. It's one of those topics that one has to wait and see. I shall not rub it in, either, when it does.
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Interesting take on the Pope. Not sure how much belief you put into the Bible and into that, but I would think the three and a half weeks prophesied would be way passed that point for the Pope once he did place himself in that office you referred to. Don't get me wrong. Catholicism is another gosple as those that do them are labouring in unbelief and voiding faith in Christ as being able.
The problem is that the N/T does claim it is authoritive;Hear is a quote from “The Book of Jude” (A book in the bible and some claim Jude to be Jesus brother).
My point is, how do you know that the Book of Enoch wasn't copied from the writings of the NT? I believe it is. Just because it looked old, and the fact that they had to find surviving copies in Egypt of all places, tends to make me believe the Alaxandria Library were up to their old tricks again with their gnostic writings. I already pointed out the kicker for me not to believe it as legit... the Terrible place in Heaven for the wicked to be tortured? Sounds like the works of poetic license to me. I can imagine them writing Enoch off of the NT, then not preserving it right away, thus giving it an aged look as opposed to other documents in being preserved, or mayhap it wasn't intentional as people were reading someone's greatest work of fiction as the writer or writers would want it to be passed around withour preserving it well. In all respect, judging a document by what was in it to determine the time instead of the age of the paper, which is unlikely to do, then one should judge the contents of the writings as it pertains with the rest of scriptures. Now they dumped it because of the relationships of fallen angls to women as to how demons were created or spawned, which is legit to do. The one I would kick it out as fake is the poetic license on God's Words is saying that there is a Terrible place in third Heaven. I believe it was some fraudulant writer having a warped concept of understanding because of Jesus' parable of "Paradise" being beneathe the earth that can be seen from across the chasm that seperates it from Hell. Paradise is where Jesus said the thief will meet Him for He has not resurrected yet nor acsended yet, thus all the Old Testament saints were there in Paradise until God raised Him from the dead and thus led the captives from captivity from Paradise.Ephesians 4: 8Wherefore he saith, When he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men. 9(Now that he ascended, what is it but that he also descended first into the lower parts of the earth? 10He that descended is the same also that ascended up far above all heavens, that he might fill all things.) Thus, Enoch reads like it was copied off of the NT. Bet you never thought of that, did you?Anyway, don't forget to ask the Lord for wisdom in understanding His Words and find the answers you seek in the Bible as well as evidence in the world. And who knows? Maybe the answer is right in front of you, but you are not seeing it yet or its application.But I believe.I can share my dreams but like I said.. it is unbelievable.I moved to Pennsylvania from Iowa in the summer before my fifth grade. That first night we arrived, I dreamt that I went out to the mailbox, got no mail, turned around and saw two neighbors walking across their yeard which was like a lot between their house and ours as it could place another house between us easily enough, .. anyway.. they walk across their yard to our back yard out of view as they walked behind my house where I thought maybe someone from my family was there in the backyard as they came over to greet, but it was not so as they continued to walk passed the back door of the garage where I saw through the garage because the garage door was open. Then they walked around to the side of the house to the front, then when I thought they would go to the front door, they went into the garage to knock at that door that led to the kitchen. Then I woke up.Awhile later, I went out to the mailbox, to see if any forwarded mail would come right away or not and sure enough... exactly like the dream... I saw it happened. I asked God why did this happened? Why show me this? What was the point?"It was Him saying to me that it was His will for me and my family to be there as in "all the stage is set, all the players in place, the die is cast."When I was a tot, I have memories of being with the Lord showing me future sins. I had prophetic dreams from when I was a tot to adulthood and although not as dramatically apparent as that one, the symbology was just for me to know and for me to be warned by.Still, that is how it is for me and still is. But looking from your point of view, I do not blame you for not believing me cause I would do the same. That is why I do not bother to share them.Anyway, Jesus is real to me. He has been My Good Shepherd and shall continue to do so by the grace of God for I place my trust in Him. So, in sharing this, I implore you to trust in Him to help you find the answers you seek. He really does want a personal relationship with you.
 

Pariah

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Hey Chronicles!Another discernment was given me from the Lord that mayhap you are not receiving yet.If Paul had read Enoch, why would he testify of this man being caught up to the third heaven and say this in regards to the third heaven if Paul had already read Enoch?2 Corinthians 12: 1It is not expedient for me doubtless to glory. I will come to visions and revelations of the Lord. 2I knew a man in Christ above fourteen years ago, (whether in the body, I cannot tell; or whether out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth;) such an one caught up to the third heaven. 3And I knew such a man, (whether in the body, or out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth;) 4How that he was caught up into paradise, and heard unspeakable words, which it is not lawful for a man to utter. How then could Paul read of Enoch then? We know of Paul boast in the flesh as a Jew.Philippians 3: 1Finally, my brethren, rejoice in the Lord. To write the same things to you, to me indeed is not grievous, but for you it is safe. 2Beware of dogs, beware of evil workers, beware of the concision. 3For we are the circumcision, which worship God in the spirit, and rejoice in Christ Jesus, and have no confidence in the flesh. 4Though I might also have confidence in the flesh. If any other man thinketh that he hath whereof he might trust in the flesh, I more: 5Circumcised the eighth day, of the stock of Israel, of the tribe of Benjamin, an Hebrew of the Hebrews; as touching the law, a Pharisee; 6Concerning zeal, persecuting the church; touching the righteousness which is in the law, blameless. 7But what things were gain to me, those I counted loss for Christ. 8Yea doubtless, and I count all things but loss for the excellency of the knowledge of Christ Jesus my Lord: for whom I have suffered the loss of all things, and do count them but dung, that I may win Christ, 9And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith: So Paul would have read Enoch and knew of the Third Heaven, but he did not. He spoke of uttering words that the law forbid to speak. This would also applied to be written down. I know you could bring up the point that it was just forbidden to speak, but remember, Paul is writing a letter so he could have been free to share this in writing, yes? But he did not because he was not supposed to and neither would this "Enoch", thus Paul could never have read Enoch because there was no book of Enoch there for the Jews to read. This is proof that Enoch was copied off of Paul's writings as the writer confused Paradise with the one across from Hell that Jesus gave the parable of the beggar, Lazarus, as in descending to that Paradise beneathe the earth. That is why the writer wrote the Terrible place where the wicked were tortured, but this Paradise regarding the third heaven is where one was taken up.... thus Enoch is a fraud through and through.Plus.. the reason for discounting it from being canonized is because there were giants in the earth as result of the sons of God mingling with the daughters of men. Copying it to add their own dramatic flair by saying fallen angels were creating demons from their copulation is falsehood as flesh giving birth to spirit would be anti-thesis to God's Word. I know that the following verses is about the Holy Spirit in being born again, but the first part... that which is born of the flesh is flesh... is entirely applicable for discerning Enoch as fraudulant.John 3: 5Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. 6That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. May the Lord enable you to see the Truth as He exposes Enoch as a work of darkness.
 

Chronicles

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Pariah is to represent the outcast of society. Believers are not really to be of the world. I am using it to state the result of my alienation and tolerance even in familiy.
I see…I suppose your explanation is Ironic to me because I sit on the other side of the fence feeling exactly the same about being outcast and alienated by Christians, simply because of what I believe…I can relate…
So as you know that God is with you, you have to know His promise in seeking answers.Matthew 7: 7Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you: 8For every one that asketh receiveth; and he that seeketh findeth; and to him that knocketh it shall be opened.
Yes, Great scripture…I have lived my life by this as a Christian and even as a Non – Christian…This is “The Law Of Attraction”…It truly works mate…Jesus taught it big time…I believe the things I do because of much prayer, study and crazing towards god for the truth. That’s how I got were I am in my beliefs. I know I have a long way to go because I still have not found the evidence to so many things I am looking for and when I feel God doesn’t want me to look any further, I suppose I will stop but I have to follow this strong craving I feel God has put in me that drives me to learn all I can about “Him” and the things the world has done with this concept of “Him” or rather “the great I Am” because really, can we call god “Him”…It really does not fit God and who god is at all…
You stated it, but was not able to receive it.God tells him to throw it away in protest to them as what they think god and his servent are worth,Judas threw it away for receiving it as what betraying Jesus(God) was worth. I see it as scriptures testifying of Jesus. I see it as prophecy especially when Judas nor any other person would go out of their way to betray Jesus, to cast the reward away, and to hang himself just to fulfill God's spoken word & command against the action displaying what God and His servant is worth. God in His Sovereign control as in when He spoke, it is done, and thus when He spoke long time ago, it still stands supreme as His Word is carried out in His plan of salvation. I see that as God's Word standing against the fabric of time.
I think I understand what your saying hear but if I understand you right, then wouldn’t this just be another example of the same thing only Christians are drawing from this to express that example and go way to far, I think, in claiming it was specifically written about the betrayal by Judas…It wasn't refering to Judus in any way shape or form when written...Again, it has been done in foresight obviously and leaves a lot to question in hindsight of it all, thousands of yrs later…
Here is a Christian think tank that you might find interesting in your intellectual search for the truth. It is based on an extra-biblical source as a historian named Thallus, reports a solar eclipse at the time of the death of Jesus as well as other reports circulating.http://www.christian-thinktank.com/jrthal.html
Yes, I have heard of Thallus from Eusebius history of the Church and want to know more about him…I’ve also heard about this eclipse…very interesting site…I have bookmarker it and will check it out some more later…Thanks for that!!
How about any historical findings that testifies of God's intervention in the Old Testament like chariot wheels at the bottom of the Red Sea and skeletal rib cages with coarl formation on them?
That is not very convincing evidence of the Exodus at all Pariah??Personally, I have found there is no archeological evidence for Abraham, Moses or the exodus, not to mention the conquest of Cannon…I have found that Jerusalem was a small country town until Assyria took Israel and Jerusalem blew out over night through migrations from Israel when it was destroyed in 722bce…Jerusalem only becomes the city we know of biblically after this… Judah absorbed many refugees from Isreal during Hezekiah's reign, about a hundred years before the destruction of Solomon's Temple by Nebuchadrezzar's Babylonians. Jehovah becomes the god of Israel through Hezekiah's political and religious reforms until his son (Who became King after him) is killed in battle and it all falls apart…Before this, Isreal was not monotheistic at all...All the laws of Deuteronomy are established in this period…After going into Babylon but holding onto there homeland traditions and identity via this short period of glory (between 722 – 670), while in captivity and longing for Zion, the priests and scribes encouraged them with the god of Israel who was the God “Jehovah” (who originally had a wife deity called Asuran) by this time…Anyways, Babylon fell to Persia and the Jews returned to Jerusalem under Persian rule…This is were the torah comes into play…Ezra, a priestly king figure returns to Jerusalem with these 5 books of Mosses, the lawgiver, (Undoubtedly written by the scribes in Babylon from stories, traditions and what ever writings they had from Hezekiah's time) and presents them to the people…So, the Torah was born!!!That’s very brief but that is what I have come to believe due to Archeological and historical research…the book is not closed on the issue for me but neither are my eye and mind…
But the world with all of its research findings are geared towards proving the evolutionary theory: and that is a sure way to get those grants
I strongly disagree…A lot of Archeology is to simply verify historical writings, like the Bible…Everything I have shared above is based on archeological finds and none of this has anything to do with evolutionOn the note of evolution, check out how long it took the church to come to terms with the fact that the earth evolves around the sun…Check the years of progress and persecution of the “Truth” by the church until final science won over…My question is, I wonder if the same thing is happening today between Evolutionists and creationists…As for me, I am on the fence still on that argument…
Interesting take on the Pope. Not sure how much belief you put into the Bible and into that, but I would think the three and a half weeks prophesied would be way passed that point for the Pope once he did place himself in that office you referred to. Don't get me wrong. Catholicism is another gospel as those that do them are labouring in unbelief and voiding faith in Christ as being able.
Have you considered that the war of 70ad was a 7yrs long war and 3.5 yrs into the war the temple and city was destroyed…Are you awear of that fact and does that help in understanding that 3.5 yr time period in scripture???This gets long and deep so I will leave that there
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My point is, how do you know that the Book of Enoch wasn't copied from the writings of the NT?
Evidence pariah, Evidence…For a start, it was found in the dead sea scrolls, so the Essene had it and they are not Christians but a Jewish sect (Apocaliptic sect at that, with very similar beliefs to Jesus and 1Enoch). They were destroyed in the 7yr war in the first century…The original Aramaic version was lost until several Dead Sea Scroll fragments were discovered in Qumran Cave 4 - providing parts of the Aramaic original.http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dead_Sea_ScrollsBooks Ranked According to Number of Manuscripts found Books No. found Psalms 39Deut 331 Enoch 25Genesis 24Isaiah 22Jubilees 21Exodus 18Leviticus 17Numbers 11Minor Prophets 10Daniel 8Jeremiah 6Ezekiel 6Job 61 & 2 Samuel 4So, 1Enoch was one of there most popular books ifound in the Dead Sea Scrolls...Third highest Paraih, what do you make of that???Keep in mind that there are 3 books of Enoch, so you are right to a degree. The second 2 books are written in AD but the first Ethiopian text (1 Enoch) dates back to the 2nd century bce…And Again;Jude was supposedly Jesus Brother wasn’t he? He believed God inspired it and that was most likely around 70ad, so it was written by then, wouldn’t you agree?So, if Christians did wrote it, then they wrote it earlier than 70ad because Jude and the Essene already had it…That would mean it was written even before the gospels…Can you see that??? It was also The Church fathers who used it and talk about it as written before Christ… …You really need to check this out…I would say that there is not a single scholar that would agree with you on the Ethiopia text (1 Enoch)…They all say it was written around the time of Jubilee in about 150bce…There is no mistaking that dude…
Another discernment was given me from the Lord that mayhap you are not receiving yet.If Paul had read Enoch, why would he testify of this man being caught up to the third heaven and say this in regards to the third heaven if Paul had already read Enoch?
I’m not sure I fully understand your point hear…. I would think Paul spoke and wrote like this because he was very much an apocalyptic Jew like Jesus and like the writers of The First book of Enoch, written before Jesus was born…This is how most apocalyptic Jewish writing reads, exactly as Paul has written hear…
This is proof that Enoch was copied off of Paul's writings as the writer confused Paradise.... Thus Enoch is a fraud through and through.
No, I can’t see that at all…maybe you could be a little clearer or maybe use another section of Paul's writing to show me something similar?I can show a lot of stuff Paul says that come from this Jewish apocalyptic thinking with TBOE as a huge part of that thinking…Jewish/Christian Apocalyptic Writings range from about 200bce to about 400ad…it did not start with Jesus and it did not start with the New Testament…It started with the Jews…Jesus was just another believer in these apocalyptic expectations…I can address this further Pariah if we can address the two questions I keep asking that no one seems to be able to enlighten me on…Hear they are again…Can you see for your self that “the writer of revelations” (John, not Paul) used TBOE as a direct source and if so, then how can we believe that John did receive it from an angel while in Patmos???Also, isn’t Jude making it clear in his book that TBOE is divinely inspired by god???So, the book (1 Enoch) must have been written well before Jude stated this because Jude believed “Enoch” Prophesied these things (according to TBOE)…Jude was written before the writing of the 4 gospels and revelations…Do you see that and agree??If not, please do just a little research on it and then clear it up for me because it clearly is written earlier to me and I have been researching TBOE for 5 yrs now…If you can prove it was not written before the N/T, that would change my whole way of thinking…
May the Lord enable you to see the Truth as He exposes Enoch as a work of darkness.
Pariah, I hope God opens up your mind, allowing you to understand things from a wider point of view…If Enoch is “a work of darkness”, as you put it, then let God reveal it and let it be known to us all hear…But if it was written by Jews about there apocalyptic expectations and that influenced the beliefs of jesus and the N/T, then let that be known also…If God is with us, then I ask God to Let the Truth be Known to us both concerning TBOE…:)
 

Pariah

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Hi Chronicles!Well, seems you are still holding to the Book of Enoch. Okay.http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dead_Sea_ScrollsWent to the link and clicked on cave 4. This is what I found.Cave 4Since the late 1950s, about 40% of the Scrolls, mostly fragments from Cave 4, remained unpublished and were inaccessible.Then there is this site:http://www.heaven.net.nz/writings/enoch.htm
The Book of Enoch was extant centuries before the birth of Christ and yet is considered by many to be more Christian in its theology than Jewish. It was considered scripture by many early Christians. The earliest literature of the so-called "Church Fathers" is filled with references to this mysterious book. The early second century "Epistle of Barnabus" makes much use of the Book of Enoch. Second and Third Century "Church Fathers" like Justin Martyr, Irenaeus, Origin and Clement of Alexandria all make use of the Book of Enoch. Tertullian (160-230 C.E) even called the Book of Enoch "Holy Scripture". The Ethiopic Church even added the Book of Enoch to its official canon. It was widely known and read the first three centuries after Christ. This and many other books became discredited after the Council of Laodicea. And being under ban of the authorities, afterwards it gradually passed out of circulation. At about the time of the Protestant Reformation, there came to be a renewed interest in the Book of Enoch which had long since been lost to the modern world. By the late 1400's rumors began to spread that somewhere a copy of the long lost Book of Enoch might still exist. During this time many books arose claiming to be the long lost book and were later found to be forgeries. The return of the long lost Book of Enoch to the modern western world is credited to the famous explorer James Bruce, who in 1773 returned from six years in Abyssinia with three Ethiopic copies of the lost book. In 1821 Richard Laurence published the first English translation. The famous R.H. Charles edition was published in 1912. In the following years several portions of the Greek text surfaced. Then with the discovery of cave 4 of the Dead Sea Scrolls, seven fragmentary copies of the Aramaic text were discovered.
Interesting. Makes me wonder how they know if they got the whole book from that seven fragmentary copies when others were found to be forgeries.
The opening verses of the Book of Enoch tell us that the revelations in this book were not meant for Enoch's generation, rather a remote generation, and of course the book would make more sense to the generations after Christ. We know that the early Church made use of the Book of Enoch, but it was then all but lost, until recent times. Perhaps this book was meant for our generation, as it is widely available today after being concealed for over a millennia.
Which brings it to question.... how did they get the whole book from the seven fragmentary copies? Being how forgeries were made, how do we know that the ones brought back from Abyssinia were not forgeries as well as I pointed out what I see as making that book of Enoch a fraud? Much questions have been given to the Catholic church as they had accessed to gnostics writings and several other books not included in the KJV. The fact that Enoch fell out of use as opposed to other scriptures does make one question if the whole book could ever be verified by those seven fragamentary copies. You may have trouble seeing the frauds in it, but I don't. Fallen angels mingling with daughters of men will not produce demons as they are spirits. What is born of the flesh is flesh.That is the main reason it fell out of disuse. Maybe there was a book of Enoch, but no one has a whole book to be verified as whole by the Dead Sea Scrolls.And as far as Enoch describing all those heavens. Look at it. http://www.mazzaroth.com/ChapterTwo/Enochs...ionToHeaven.htmSeems to me someone has taken poetic license to add to the book of Enoch and that is why it as a whole has fallen into disuse.Out of time. Hope the Lord helps you on your quest. Oh, and God would not help you to move away from Him. Hope you are not praying to the Spirit for guidance. Pray to Jesus for the guidance. We wage a war not against flesh and blood....
 

Chronicles

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Hi Pariah,One more post on Enoch (unless you want to take it further) and I will change the subject to something else I want to address with you if you have time…
Well, seems you are still holding to the Book of Enoch. Okay.http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dead_Sea_Scrolls
Yes, I am still holding to the book of Enoch but let me verify what I mean by that…I believe the Book of Enoch was written 150bce and used and believed as divine scripture by Apocalyptic Jews including Jesus, John the Baptist, The essense…I believe that the first Christians and those for the next couple of hundred years believed it was divine scripture.I Believe the Bible called it Divine scripture in Jude…I believe that the New Testament is very similar to TBOE because it was “Jewish Apocalyptic Beliefs” before Jesus…That’s why Jesus taught it and the apostles believed it…They were Apocalyptic Jews…I however, do not believe it is Divinely Inspired…I do not believe Enoch himself (A mythical figure to me) had anything to do with it…In Fact, I find it is a Jewish forgery of antiquity not a Christian forgery…Since it is a Jewish forgery and Christianities beliefs are established by it, I then very quickly lost my faith in the Bible, followed by bible prophecy and apocalyptic beliefs …Followed by no longer believing in a messiah at all.So it isn’t that I don’t believe that Jesus is the Messiah but rather “I don’t believe in a Messiah at all” anymore Because of this “Jewish Apocalyptic Forgery” That the first Christians believed was divinely inspired by god and built there religious beliefs upon it and the theology of Jewish Apocalyptic Ideas (which TBOE played a huge part in)….Hear is a couple of quotes from that Dead Sea link;
About 25% are traditional Israelite religious texts that are not in the canonical Hebrew Bible, such as the Book of 1 Enoch, the Book of Jubilees, and the Testament of Levi.
These are well known traditional “Jewish” texts…Writen BC…
There is, however, no concrete physical evidence of scribal activity at Qumran, nor, a fortiori, that the claimed Qumran community altered the biblical texts to reflect their own theology (Golb, 1995; cf. Abegg et al 2002). It is thought that the claimed Qumran community would have viewed the Book of 1 Enoch and the Book of Jubilees as divinely inspired scripture (Abegg et al 2002).
So, 1Enoch wasn’t writen by Essense it was kept by them, meaning it wasn’t new it them or the Jews…
Before the discovery at Qumran (among the Dead Sea Scrolls) of fragments from 1 Enoch, there was some dispute about whether the Greek text was an original Christian production, or whether it was a translation from an Aramaic text redacted in Jewish circles. The chief argument for a Christian author was the occurrence of references to the Messiah as the Son of Man, however such references can also appear in Jewish texts around the turn of the era.
As it says, “such references can also appear in Jewish texts around the turn of the era.”I would go so far as to say that either jesus used the term, “Son Of Man” because it was Jewish apocaliptic thaught already or the Gospel writers used it because it was Jewish Apocaliptic thaught already…It is every were you look…The sources are many and…You just have to think, a little like mentally combing many scriptures to one doctrinal view point…Think like that and you will see the evidence “everywhere” in different places and sources…Let me show you a couple of examples;
Which brings it to question.... how did they get the whole book from the seven fragmentary copies?
Well, there are many different quotes given by church fathers…There’s many biblical quotes in reference to TBOE…There are other fragments found in different places, not just the dead sea or cave 4…There is the Ethiopic text and it is believed, even known, that it has been a part of there bible from the beginning, even though Rome and the late Church fathers burned there own books and the western world and eastern orthodoxy lost it…When all put together there are many sources to draw from to establish this…I am sure there is room for error, don’t get me wrong but I am also sure we have that original copy through that Ethiopia text…I am pretty certain of that through my studies but not 100% sure of course…
Being how forgeries were made, how do we know that the ones brought back from Abyssinia were not forgeries as well as I pointed out what I see as making that book of Enoch a fraud?
As I said above, there is many places to draw from to establish this…Scholars are well educated pariah, they can date writing in antiquity to within 10 yrs, just by the progression of changing style…These scholars are not stupid and they aren’t liars…With that said, they are also human and do make mistakes but they are good investigators…I have a certain amount of trust in what they say as a majority…
You may have trouble seeing the frauds in it, but I don't.
That’s fair enough, we may have to beg to differ in the end but it was worth the discussion…it has brought a lot of things back to the surface for me and I hope it has allowed you to settle the issue for your self…
Fallen angels mingling with daughters of men will not produce demons, as they are spirits. What is born of the flesh is flesh.
Actually, the whole book of Enoch is Myth at best and fantasy at worst, in my opinion…. I don’t believe any of it but Jesus and the first Christians did…that’s my point and my problem…
That is the main reason it fell out of disuse. Maybe there was a book of Enoch, but no one has a whole book to be verified as whole by the Dead Sea Scrolls.
I would say there is enough evidence to show that the Ethiopic text (A whole and Full Text that has always been Kept in there Bible) was translated from the original Aramaic text written before Christ and is the text that the essense had…Scholars obviously feel the same way as I do because they are united on this…There are more fragments than those of the dead sea and they all match the Etheopic text of 1Enoch...
And as far as Enoch describing all those heavens. Look at it.http://www.mazzaroth.com/ChapterTwo/...onToHeaven.htmSeems to me someone has taken poetic license to add to the book of Enoch and that is why it as a whole has fallen into disuse.
Like you said earlier, it fell into disuse because of the fallen angels taking women and having half-breed giants that became demons after the flood…that had become unbelievable and therefore it was classed as “Hebrew fables and myths”…Dangerous move since there religion was built upon these beliefs…I.E. Jesus casting out Demons, many apocalyptic beliefs like heaven and hell, Kingdom Of God, Messiah, End Of The World, Son Of man coming on the clouds, Great Judgment, New Heaven and Earth, lord coming with 10,000 saints and on and on and on…All comes from Jewish Apocalyptic Beliefs around and before the time of Jesus…You should read some of the stuff they found at Qumran Pariah. There is early apocalyptic Jewish thought (meaning Jewish Bible prophecy) through their found manuscripts and they are incredible…talking of the sons of light and the sons of darkness (referring to themselves as “The sons of Light”)…Just another Jewish Apocalyptic Sect like Johns and then Jesus, or so it would seem…Incredible reading though…As for this Heaven issue, if you feel there is evidence there, can you elaborate on what your saying because I am not sure I understand…Are you saying that the new testament teaches 3 heavens and Enoch tech’s many heavens? Not sure were the poetic license comes into it?? Please explain some more because I like to fully understand were someone is coming from before leaving it behind me…
Out of time. Hope the Lord helps you on your quest. Oh, and God would not help you to move away from Him. Hope you are not praying to the Spirit for guidance. Pray to Jesus for the guidance. We wage a war not against flesh and blood....
I used to pray to the father in the name of Jesus by the holy ghost but these days when I pray, I am praying to “God” the creator of all things, the spirit of life, the source of my faith, the god of truth…That’s who I pray to…I rather draw from the spirit of god or draw close to the spirit of god…Probably sounds a little new agey but I am just trying to find my own way after I believe god revealed the truth to me concerning the bible and the Christian religion…But hey, I could be and hope I’m wrong…I used to believe I had all the answers in Christ but that passed because I didn’t and I had to learn that the hard way…I am still searching as I was when I was a Christian, that hasn’t changed…I am going to change the subject and go another way hear, for evidence in a new area…Anyways, that brings me to another subject that I will start in a new post under this one…Subject…Bible Prophecy…Is it real???
 

Chronicles

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G'day Pariah, Hear is that Prophecy post I've been going to post...Subject…Bible Prophecy…Is it real???After believing so many different prophetic biblical interpretations, I ended up settling for a view that relies on 1st century history to tell the story…I find futurist views fascinating because I can not believe they come to these conclusions out of bible scripture…It seems Some of your views Pariah, are similar to those of futurist views and I find them fascinating how it is that you (and humanity in Genral) can actually believe them…I have a question for you…Do you know another Christian who sees bible prophecy “Exactly” the same as you or do all futurists have there own personal swing to there beliefs???I have found that futurist prophecies are so unstable that no one belief will ever agree with another…I see that as evidence…I used to be one myself
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The true meaning of bible prophecy and revelations is to be found in the past rather than the future…The amount of times the N/T writers speak as though everything is “At Hand” and “Coming Soon”…The reason for this subject is because Bible Prophecy is “one of the main reasons” that I have personally lost my faith in the bible and Jesus as the messiah…Not something I wanted to happen, I can assure you but I believe the truth speaks for it’s self if you look for it…I want to put some biblical terms out there…I will put my short explanation to them and hope if you (or anyone else) have time that you will respond and let me know what your take on these biblical terms are in comparison…1. Beast – I believe to be a couple of things wrapped into one…The Roman Empire and The Roman Cult of Emperor Worship…2. Anti-Christ – Nero Caesar Persecuted Christians like no other and then sent Vesptasian (the next emporer) to Galilee to start the 7 yr war on the Jews, which finally destroyed there temple 3.5 yrs into that war...3. 666 – There is a popular numerical code used in the 1st Cent. That uses numbers to match letters in the Hebrew and Greek alphabets…When applied to Nero Caesar we get “666”…4. Great persecution against the faithful – Nero blames Christians for starting the fire of Rome and has them used as torches for his chariot races, Crucifies Peter upside down and cuts off the apostles Pau’ls head…5. False messiahs – after Jesus time, the Jewish messiahs were literally popping up everywhere for the next 100 yrs…The last main one being Simon barkugbar (a strong candidate in his time)…6. Wars and rumors of wars – Since Augustus, the roman empire had gone into a time of 100 yrs of peace called, “the pox romana”…Augustus lived just before Jesus time…By the time the 66ad revolt started, this pox romana was fraying at the edges with wars and rumors of wars and then, during this Jewish revolt, Nero dies and Rome goes into full on civil war which was quickly dealt with by Vesptasian who became the next real emperor after 4 emperors in one year…7. Abomination that causes desolations – In Mathew, Jesus refers to the time of the destruction of the temple and claims that this is the fulfillment of Daniel's prediction about the AOD (Abomination of desolation), However Jesus refers to this as an army surrounding Jerusalem and destroying the temple in Luke…Luke is without a doubt, referring to the destruction of the temple in 70ad…Luke also wrote his gospel in hign sight of this whole war…This was Luke’s version of what that Abomination that causes desolation was in Mathew...Clear cut case…8. 7yrs and 3.5 yrs – The war starting by Nero, sending Vesptasian against the Jews because of there constant rebellion…3.5 yrs into the war, the temple was burned and Jerusalem fell…The war continued until the rebellion was suppressed at Masada and other Jewish holdouts…There is your 7 yr trib. with prior persecutions and rumors of wars…9. Temple’s destruction – 3.5 yrs into the war, Vesptasian’s (new emperor) son (the prince), enters Jerusalem and burns the temple to the ground and wipes away the inhabitance of Jerusalem…10. The end of the world – The destruction of the temple and Jerusalem was the beginning of the end for the Jews and the end of the beginning for the Christians…This is what changed everything and if this did not happen, then Christianity would never have progressed to become the state religion of Rome…Anyways, By the time of the last revolt by Simon barkugbar in around 130 ad, the whole Jewish nation was destroyed and exiled into the world…The name of there country was changed from Judea and Galilee to “Palestine”…This is the end of the world for the Jews…11. Rapture - I hear Futurists say, “The Rapture is the next biblical advent to take place” but didn’t Paul say, “The Dead in Christ will raise first”???12. Return of Christ with 10, 000 of his saint’s – Now, that’s a direct quote from The Book Of Enoch, which is classed as Christian fantasy isn’t it
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…Wasn’t Elijah supposed to return in Jesus time? So, we are still awaiting Elijah’s return and now we await Jesus also??? Didn’t Mohammad get taken up also?? Do we await Mohammad also??? Or is that Islamic mythology...Lets have a little look at this return of Christ and see how divinely inspired his followers are and how much God has given them foresight concerning there beliefs in god and Christ over the whole history of the Church;Look at the Christian track records for predicting prophecy or even having divine forsight for that matter…these are my 18 reasons to not believe that Christianity or the Bible have Divine foresight…1. We have Jesus himself being extremely apocalyptic, in almost all of his parables and teachings…Jesus seemed to believe that the kingdom of god was about to arrive and judgment would sit…The meek would inherit the earth, his disciples would sit on thrones and the wicked would be damned to judgment…Enochian Theology pre-1st century..2. Paul beliefs weren’t concentrated on the Jews…It had become a Global end of the world with a return of Christ and a resurrection from the dead, along with Christians being ruptured (caught up) into the air to be with Christ at his return. His writings show that his followers expected Jesus to return and the dead to rise to life, along with rapture, at any time.3. In the 1st Century, Pope Clement, a disciple of Peter, Preached that the world would end at any moment. 4. Hillary of Potchia, an early bishop in the church in Gaul (France) declared, “Christ would return to earth in the year 365ad. We don’t know the reaction when Jesus didn’t arrive 5. In the 5th century, st Augustine became one of the first and one of the few to challenge the literal meaning of revelations, due to the failed apocalyptic fever within Christian history. This is already within 500 yrs. In Spite of st Augustine’s pleas, to avoid predicting the end of days, as the century’s past, more and more people continued to set dates for Christ’s return. Christian leaders were convinced that the anti Christ was at work and the end was imminent.6. In the year 1000, the holy Roman Emperor, Charlemagne, was disinterred because of a legend that he would rise to fight the anti Christ.7. Many believed that Christ would return on the 1000 anniversary of his crucifixion in 1033 ad.8. Through the middle Ages, the horrifying figure of the anti Christ filled Christians with dread. The music of the middle ages pleaded for god’s forgiveness from the day of anger and wrath along with their art depicting apocalyptic forecasts9. In 1347, flea-ridden rats carried bubonic plague to Europe. It swept the continent with a tidal wave of unstoppable death. One third of Europe’s population died. The Black Death was seen as the deadly and divine proof that the end was near. 10. Medieval fear mongers increasingly saw the antichrist all around them in human form. Jews were among the most popular groups to be sited as doing the work of the devil. 11. As frustration with the Church increased, it was the Papacy that was identified as the antichrist by theologians like Martian Luther.Quote Luther;I scarcely doubt that the Pope is properly the anti Christ. Everything he lives, does, speaks, establishes, and fits so well.”Luther avoided the temptation to set a date for Christs return. Such reluctance would not continue as Christian history began on a new continent. The discovery and settlement of America. 12. The belief that America has a special prophetic role goes back to the earliest European settlements. Some teaching that America was New Jerusalem from “the book of revelations”.13. Calvinist’s, Anabaptists, Quakers, Puritans and other fervently religious groups made there way to America and rallied around apocalyptic leaders. Leaders that proclaimed that the end of the world was near. None of these leaders was more passionate and outspoken than cotton Mather. From his pulpit, he warned and preached that the world would come to an end in 1691. He was one of the great date setters, boldly announcing a succession of dates and when the date would pass, he was undeterred. He would pretty soon come up with a new date.14. Many colonial Americans saw signs predicted in revelations everywhere they looked. As America moved towards independence, the identity of the antichrist shifted to king George III himself.15. The most famous predictions and most dramatic event in the history of apocalyptic America came not from a theologian but from an early 19th century farmer and preacher in upstate New York. His name was William Miller. Fascinated by biblical prophecy, miller knew his bible and he was particularly attracted to one verse;Daniel ch 8 v 13-14“ How long will it take for the vision to be fulfilled… and he said unto me, unto 2300 days. Then shall the sanctuary be cleaned”.Miller was shore that this was a mathematical guide to Christs return. He confidently set a date. Jesus would return on the year 1843. Beginning in the 1830’s miller criss crossed the North Easter US with his powerful message of the second coming. His public preaching quickly attracted thousands of believers. His rapidly growing flock soon became known as the millerites. In huge tents and tiny chapels miller spread the word to His many followers and his message was “Jesus was coming”.As that day approached frenzy caught a large part of the northeast. Crowds were assembled, great revivals were held. Public newspapers and magazines were published, charts and graphs were distributed but as 1843 came and went, miller and his followers recalculated the date. This time all were confident that there was no mistake. Christ would reappear precisely on October 21st, 1844. On the chosen day, Millerites gathered at the chosen farm where miller was praying. Many had sold all they owned and even eaten there last meal, while each quietly awaited the end of there time on earth. As the hours past, people prayed and sang hymns and clung to the hope that there saviour would still arrive. As the sun set, the truth at last was clear, all hope was finally gone.16. Out of the ashes of the millerites we see new groups arising, like the Jehovah’s witnesses. Their founder “Russell” was a Baptist minister mixed up with the millerites. The JW’s have a long history of failed prophetic forcastes. One of there forecasts was that Jesus would return in 1914.17. The seventh day Adventists also have their roots in the millerites failed predictions and are still very apocalyptic in their views. 18. America has become a breading ground for apocalyptic sects and cults causing their believers to believe in all types of myths and fantasies. It is not uncommon for apocalyptic sects to cause their believers to sell all they have because the end is at hand. Even Jesus had this theology, telling his believers to sell all they have and give it to the poor and follow him because the kingdom was at hand and he was the key. After his death, His followers sold all they had and gave it to “the Apostles” not the poor and then waited for Jesus and the Apostles promise that he would return and reward them. The greatest impact on American apocalyptic thought came not from an American but an Englishman. John Nelson Darby developed a theory in the 19th century that included an event that he called “The Rapture”. Although never actually mentioned by name in the Bible, Darby insisted that the Rapture would be a divine moment when god will call his faithful to heaven to witness the end of time. He gets this from the Apostle Paul’s ideas of Jesus capturing up his saints into the air as he returns.o.k. 18 should do it...As we can see, Christianity is filled with failed bible prophecy from its beginnings!!Can we then rely on the Bible??? Can you see how I have lost my faith???Can it be fixed???This has become obvious to me through studying 1st cent history???Interpreting Rev into the 1st cent. - just to show what I mean about relating it to the 1st century;The book of revelations was written to be used as an oracle with a narrator to an audience…that audience was the churches of Asia minor in the 1st cent…The letter was filled with apocalyptic stories and parables concerning “what was, what is and what is to come”.At the time this was written, probably the biggest thing threatening Christians was the empirical cult of “emperor worship” (something Christians refused to do)…Revelations tell Christians to stand there ground because the days of the empire are numbered and Christ will return and conquer Rome…Let me put a little of my 1st cent interpretations to a little of rev so you can see were I am coming from… Revelation 179And here is the mind, which hath wisdom. The seven heads are seven mountains, on which the woman sits. So Obviously Rome (everyone knew in antiquity that Rome was built on 7 hills) 10And there are seven kings: five are fallen, and one is, and the other is not yet come; and when he cometh, he must continue a short space. First, a bit of trivia on Revelations…I found that “Josephus” (a Jewish Historian) numbers the Caesars as he presents them, starting with calling “Julius Caesar” number “1”…Augustus, he calls the 2nd emperor and he calls Tiberius the 3rd and Caligula the 4th and so on…I find that incredible!!! It confirms to me the interpretations of the roman emperors in revelations…. Consider that Josephus was writing around the same time as revelations was written… this seems most likely the interpretation while referring to Rome just before she burned (when antichrist Nero was in power)…Five are fallen, and one is, and the other is not yet come;1. Julius Caesar2. Augustus Caesar3. Tiberius Caesar4. Caligula Caesar5. Claudius CaesarFive are fallen and one is6. Nero Caesar – The anti Christ – 666 - This is where the persecutions start and then the war against the Jews (Nero sends Vestavia to Galilee and Judea). To Romans, Christians were a Jewish sect. So Nero the antichrist sends Vestavia to Judea to destroy the Jews for there constant rebellion against Rome. Vestavia becomes the emperor with his two sons after Nero Dies.And the other is not yet come; and when he cometh, he must continue a short space. Vestavia Flavius (the family line changes hear to the flavins.), when he came, he attacked Judea for a short while until he was called back to Rome to fight a civil war for the emperor’s seat. So, he left Judea after a short time and never returned. He sent his son Titus to put down the Jews rebellion later. 11And the beast that was, and is not, even he is the eighth, and is of the seven, and goeth into perdition. The beast that was (Vesptasian) and is not (because he left back to Rome leaving Judea) even he is the eighth (Titus, Vesptasian son) who is of the seventh (Vesptasian)Titus Flavius – Titus is Vesptasian son, so, Titus is of the 8th . He goes into perdition because Vesptasian sends Titus (the prince at this time) to Jerusalem to put down the rebellion but Titus is young and looses control of his troops when they enter the city of Jerusalem and they kill everything that moves and burn the temple to the ground.Then Titus becomes emperor, the 8th and the destroyer of the Jews and the Temple (bringing the Jews into perdition). The son of perdition is the destroyer of the temple.There are more sons of perdition. Nero was another and Judas Iscariot was another.Anyways, these are the things I have come to believe and obviously these things destroy my faith in the bible, Prophecy and Jesus…I shoulda called myself “Ravo”
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Jordan

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Apr 6, 2007
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(Chronicles;23666)
(thesuperjag;23661)
I will never back down from the Truth.
I’m not sure what you mean by “The Truth” hear?? For me, fact established via evidence = Truth…i.e. one plus one = two or the earth goes around the sun…Belief via faith does not and can not = Truth …That is simply not “The Truth” Jag…that’s faith…Shouldn’t you be saying, “I will never back down from my faith”…Aren’t you getting Truth mixed up with Faith hear or did I miss something…(thesuperjag;23661)
Quite frankly. I'm going to tick off Satan. As long I know the Truth of how Cain was born and what happened in the Garden of Eden... I will not go back to my old way.
I am not sure of what Truth or belief you are referring to concerning the birth of Cane. Can you elaborate on that?And again, isn’t this wrong wording again…Shouldn’t it be, “As long I “continue to Believe“ how Cain was born and what happened in the Garden of Eden... I will not go back to my old way.(thesuperjag;23661)
The Word of God is NOT a myth. And never will be.
When you say "The Word Of God" I assume you mean "The Bible" right??Have you done much study on ancient mythology Jag? For you to make a strong statement like this, I would assume you have done extensive studies to be so sure of this…Have you??I have…would you like to see how much a myth Adam and Eve is…You don’t have to look far…It’s textbook mythology mate…(thesuperjag;23669)
As long as I know the Kenites (sons of Cain - Satan's offspring) still exists in this world. I will never back down from Christ and the Living Word. These Kenites is killing everyone spiritually even you.
I am not sure I understand what your saying hear…can you elaborate for me??Keep in mind that If the flood of Noah is true according to the Bible, then mankind was wiped out totally, only leaving Noah’s family and they were from Seth line, not Cane’s, so how is there any of canes line left alive? Wouldn’t that be unscriptural?Maybe I misunderstood…Please explain:)1. We should not limit God at all. As the Spirit of God is at work, so does the spirit of the antichrists. To be quite honest, mankind makes numerous claims that should be "true" but really it's not...Look at the man-made global warming...Do you think God's creations can do more than God? We will always have winter time...Especially Evolution...and other man-made claims.1b Of course 1 + 1 = 2.1c John 8:32 - And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.John 8:36 - If the Son therefore shall make you free, ye shall be free indeed.2. Cain is not Adam's son. Been shown proven at Genesis 3:15...Because God was talking to Satan. Satan has a seedline.3. Romans 10:17 - So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God. Before God created the Bible, there was only Hearing the Word of God, through man, even by Himself say it too. Nowadays we have what is called the Bible, we read the Word of God these days...there are many prophecies fulfilled and they are still being fulfillled even to this day...Christ fulfilled many in His flesh time....Because Christ said this...John 5:39 - Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me.4. Yes, the account of Noah's flood in the bible is True...but the only flaw with mankind interpretation is, God saves all the races. Not just 8 souls (Noah + his 3 sons + the wives) He saves 1 male and 1 female of each races of mankind, Even God saves 1 male and 1 female of the Kenite (sons of Cain - Satan's seedline)On another note: We know that there is only one planet Earth. At the same time, God called the land earth. God is fair. He loves all the races He created...But He hates evil.Jag
 

Chronicles

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2. Cain is not Adam's son. Been shown proven at Genesis 3:15...Because God was talking to Satan. Satan has a seedline.
You are so wrong Jag, were do you get this stuff from mate????That is not what 15:3 means and there isn’t a single Christian that I know that would agree with you on this…Some say this verse is a prophecy of the coming messiah…I do not know how you get your conclusions from this, can you elaborate and explain so I can understand were you are coming from because you seem to be plain and simply wrong…
4. Yes, the account of Noah's flood in the bible is true...but the only flaw with mankind interpretation is, God saves all the races. Not just 8 souls (Noah + his 3 sons + the wives) He saves 1 male and 1 female of each races of mankind, Even God saves 1 male and 1 female of the Kenite (sons of Cain - Satan's seedline)
Again, you are simply wrong my friend…I rarely blatantly say that but in this case, it is obvious…Can you prove this to me scripturally because I do not believe this is to be scriptural by any biblical standards at all???In Noah's flood only Noah's family survived and they came from "Seth" not Cain...Can you show me any different from the Bible?
1.We should not limit God at all. As the Spirit of God is at work, so does the spirit of the antichrists. To be quite honest, mankind makes numerous claims that should be "true" but really it's not...Look at the man-made global warming...Do you think God's creations can do more than God? We will always have winter time...Especially Evolution...and other man-made claims.
I am not talking about theories that are unproven I am talking about established truth…Good example would be Galileo and the earth evolving around the sun…That is a fact but the Church had there own truth and would not concede to that fact for a long time…Facts are facts…You say Especially Evolution but evolution is a theory that I believe is going through the same process as Galileo’s theory…You will see soon enough that the churches so called truth will be 100% wrong and Darwin’s theory will be proved 100%, like Galileo, if it hasn’t already, beyond any doubt and the churches so called truth will be wrong again…Consider that Darwin came up with this theory (through science not faith) about 150 yrs ago and ever since, modern science , with it’s genetic abilities now and biology and micro biology has advanced out of site in the last 150 yrs and you know what, “all of these new sciences “PROOVE” that Darwin’s theory is accurate, 100% accurate”…It is only a matter of time before the church will be forced to swallow that pill like in the days of Galileo…I have no doubt about that…My opinion is that anyone who automatically discards Darwin’s theory, is doing so because they are ignorant and uneducated…People say a theory is not a fact but is “The theory of gravity” a fact…Just because it is called a theory does not mean it has not been proved beyond a doubt…It is intelligent design that is “not science” at best and “fraudulent” at worst...Concerning the genesis flood story…Have you ever read “The epic of Gilgamesh” written hundreds of years before anything written in the bible…it is Babylonian Mythology and it has your flood story in it mate
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how do you think the Jews in Babylon came up with this “Mythical story”…They got it from Babylonian myth and even more accurate, got it from the epic of Gilgamesh…That is a fact…To think that it came from Moses is an ignorant assumption with no research involved...Why do Christians discard the facts for simply, believing in mythology as though ignorant of the times we are living in and the information we have at our finger tips…? There really is no excuse for ignorance in our day and age…Have you ever tried to convince a child that Santa Clause is not real…It is near impossible to convince them and if you can, they will end up shattered until they come to terms with it…Is our mythical faith any different???I’d seems that adults are not so different to children, with there ability to believe in all kinds of fantasies…Christians need to get a grip on the times we live in if there religion is to survive modern knowledge and information that out ways anything the church has to offer on any kind of truth…Hasn’t God given us a mind that can reason out information through logic???This allows us to investigate the truth in things…If God is real, then that is god given, so why do so many people give that up for there faith in god??? Surly that is not what god what’s us to do???
 

Letsgofishing

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Hey ChroniclesI'm going to pretend noone ever responded because it gets to confusing.in your first message you said that christians who you thought were your friend abandoned and judged you just because you dared to think on your own.God bless youLet me be the first to apologize for the actions of my brothers and sisters. The one thing christianity is missing today is people like you chronicles, christians who think for themselfs and challenge there own faith. and anyone who is against you doing this is not acting as a christian but an antichrist.and also for the damages the christian life has given you which was not by people, God never said the christian life was easy. He said just the opposite. When I started really living my life in christ life got a hundred times harder as christians we know that it will all be worth it when we die.It seems like your a very learned christian. Don't look to deep in the bible and miss the most important message. Jesus died to save you. ask him to reveal himself to you. Tell him you have lost your faith and ask him to give you a sighn that he is real.I was at the exact same point as you are right now and I offered up that very prayer and I HEARD GODS VOICE. I mean I actually heard him talk to me. He wants you, open yourself to him and let him show himself to you.So that you may begin to live. From one self thinking christian to another you are in my prayers Ryan Fitz
 

Letsgofishing

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Believe it or not The creation story in the bible could very well be a myth and the amazing thing is the only thing it does is make the story even stronger.evidence suggest that Genesis was not written at the beggining of time but when the isrealites were removed from isreal and taken prisoners by babylon. Now this was very disturbing to the Isrealites because there belief was that only part of the earth that belonged to thier God, the real God, was isreal. Thats where Genesis comes in. Because the creation story showed something very different. That God created and ruled the whole world, which meant that by leaving isreal God had not abandoned the isrealites.So in other words, don't overlook the message either way the creation story has one message, God created the world. The one thing which has to be true is the fall of man, and we fall everyday so it isn't to difficult to imagine it in a different scenario.The isrealite story is from the pope himself so if you can poke it full of holes that would be wonderful. I do practice roman catholicism but I consider myself just a christian ( for more details read my thread on this forum. ) So please challenge my faith.
 

Chronicles

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Hey Jag, I have been thinking a little about why you would believe the things you do and then it dawned on me…”You believe that Eve had sex with the serpent” (Fallen angel/Satan)… don’t you??? That is the only way I can see that you have come to these conclusions???If this is true, then I would say that it is an interesting concept but there is a few flaws…one is, how is it that Adam partook of this fruit???Or have I misunderstood???
 

Chronicles

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Hey ChroniclesI'm going to pretend noone ever responded because it gets to confusing.
G’day FitzI’ve just done a quick brush over your posts to get to know a little about you…Hopefully you’ve read a little of my thread to know a little of were I am coming from…So, let’s go fishing
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in your first message you said that Christians who you thought were your friend abandoned and judged you just because you dared to think on your own.God bless youLet me be the first to apologize for the actions of my brothers and sisters. The one thing Christianity is missing today is people like you chronicles, Christians who think for themselves and challenge there own faith. And anyone who is against you doing this is not acting as a Christian but an antichrist.
Thanks for that mate, I agree, it is unchristian…or is it
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…Catholics are much more tolerant it seems…
and also for the damages the Christian life has given you which was not by people, God never said the Christian life was easy. He said just the opposite. When I started really living my life in Christ life got a hundred times harder as Christians we know that it will all be worth it when we die.
My death is not a motivating factor hear…I am more motivated by “Abundant Life” not eternal life…Enjoy it while you have it because when it is over, it is over….Well, that’s the way I see things anyways…I hope that god is real and I do have life after death but it’s a Fairland hope that I know is not likely…
Ask him to reveal himself to you. Tell him you have lost your faith and ask him to give you a sign that he is real.
Hang on a minute, you are to wise for 15 yrs old…Your kidding on your profile aren’t you, your older than 15 yrs…
It seems like you’re a very learned Christian. Don't look to deep in the bible and miss the most important message. “Jesus died to save you”.
If you are 15 yrs, I must hold my tongue hear on this point…Fitz, are your Parent’s Catholic also??? You are a minor and I am in no position to debate theology with you if it goes against your parents wishes…That to me would be manipulation not debate or discussion…I appreciate that you’re a smart kid that has a great heart but if you are only 15 yrs old, I will not challenge your faith…That is your parents or priests job…If your not 15 yrs old, then let me know because I will trip you up big time on this issue of uniting the catholic and Christian church’s because that will never happen…We haven’t spent 500 yrs escaping “Mithras” paganism, looking for our roots in Christianity, to go back to her pagan ways…it will never happen my young friend, so give that mission up now, while your still young…That is Advise Fitz, not theological debate…Don’t waiste your life…
I was at the exact same point as you are right now and I offered up that very prayer and I HEARD GODS VOICE. I mean I actually heard him talk to me. He wants you, open yourself to him and let him show himself to you.So that you may begin to live.
Do tell Fitz, this voice, was it orbital, coming from without or did you hear god in your heart…I ask because my wife believes she once heard god orbital speak to her???If your 15 yrs old, it is literally impossible for you to be were I am or have been
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, I do understand your wise council though…When I pray a prayer like that, there are historical implications that come to mind…Is that god bringing that to mind or what I have learned coming back to my mind??I have always asked god for answers to my questions, that’s how I got were I am…I do still pray to god and only last night I prayed to god again and asked him again, to show me if Jesus is from god and what I am supposed to do about that…Are these prophecy’s (Isaiah 53 and Psalm’s 22) real and Is Jesus this promised Messiah or not??? (this was as a result of my discussions with Pariah)Every time It comes up against historical challenges and Scholarly information that I believe god has taught me and revealed to me “Already” in the past…And yet, I am still open, wanting it all to be real…But, the end result is the same every time…God reveals so many things that I have learned in my life, all in a sequence and that leaves me realizing that it is all mostly religious Junk…
From one self thinking Christian to another you are in my prayers Ryan Fitz
Thanks mate, I do appreciate that!!
Believe it or not the creation story in the bible could very well be a myth and the amazing thing is the only thing it does is make the story even stronger.Evidence suggests that Genesis was not written at the beginning of time but when the Israelites were removed from Israel and taken prisoners by Babylon. Now this was very disturbing to the Israelites because there belief was that only part of the earth that belonged to their God, the real God, was Israel. That’s where Genesis comes in. Because the creation story showed something very different. That God created and ruled the whole world, which meant that by leaving Israel God, had not abandoned the Israelites.So in other words, don't overlook the message either way the creation story has one message, God created the world.
Actually this Creation myth is a great myth, I totally agree with you and there are many things you can get from it, not just Creationism…
The one thing which has to be true is the fall of man, and we fall everyday so it isn't too difficult to imagine it in a different scenario.
Why does this have to be true??? Do you have any archeological evidence for you to believe this must be true?? How do you figure?? History shows only violence in all quarters of the universe, including the animal kingdom… Natural selection all the way…I love mythology and this is one of my favorite text book myths because It tells of the reasons for mans creation, which is to learn the difference between good and evil…That’s why we are hear…To make that choice…This came about by the fall, as you have pointed out, but “this is still just a myth”… Why do you believe that man was once perfect, eating from the tree of life and living for ever in harmony with all of god’s harmonious creation??? Just Because of an ancient myth from a time when mankind didn’t know squat about anything…Why would you fall for that?No, this is literally impossible, it can’t be… violence is all over the earth and archeological violence goes right back to the beginning…Violence and chaos are part of our evolution; natural selection is the result…The world was not a harmonious place once, were the lion lay with the lamb… that can not be because it is a violent universe and we are placed in a violent setting…I would go so far as to say that if god is real, he is a violent god or even maybe just a young god evolving… consider that everything is in him and him in everything, so, the universe is god, or rather the Physical manifestation of god’s spirit…
The Israelite story is from the pope himself so if you can poke it full of holes that would be wonderful.
Do You mean the theory you just presented on Genesis is from the Pope…was this the new Pope?? That wouldn’t surprise me in the least…Like I said earlier in another post, it is only a matter of time before the church swallows the pill of evolution just as they did with Galileo’s theory…This is just the start…This isn’t reforming, it is conforming…Christians reform and Catholics conform, lol…
I do practice Roman Catholicism but I consider myself just a Christian (for more details read my thread on this forum.) So please challenge my faith.
If your only 15, I am reluctant to challenge your faith or rather is it your parent’s faith that you hold, not your own…Or are you kidding about your age Fitz…Either way, Don’t become a Catholic priest mate, think long and hard about that…You could be a scholar or a theologian still within the catholic church or even a historian…So many things and you want to sell your life to a religion…If this is true, let me know and I will show you what your getting into and ask you why you would want to become a priest to “Mithras”…Look it up for yourself…“Mithras”…It was the main religion of the Roman empire from before the first century until it was outlawed by Christianity in the 4th century…This is your religion Fitz, “Mithras” the Babylonian deity picked up by Roman Soldiers and spread all through the roman empire…This is the “Mystery Babylon, the mother of Harlot’s” that John from Patmos is referring to in the book of revelations, I believe…I have Very little doubt about this…I really think becoming a Catholic priest would be a huge mistake Fitz…