How can Jesus' death save us?

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Robert Gwin

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The Bible states we die because Adam sinned Rom 5:12. Right there in the garden of Eden, Jehovah gave the first prophecy of a coming seed that would crush satan. Jesus was that seed, and became the last Adam. 1 Cor 15:45 Jesus came to give his life as a ransom for all who would follow him. Mat 20:28 He opened the way for us to regain all that Adam and Eve had lost for us. One might wonder why Mat 20:28 says many instead of all. Like Adam, life is dependent upon obedience to God. Sadly not all will choose to live up to the requirements of life in God's new world. For all those who choose to do God's will Mat 7:21 they will have the opportunity to live forever in God's righteous new Kingdom.
 
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Behold

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The Bible states we die because Adam sinned Rom 5:12. Right there in the garden of Eden, Jehovah gave the first prophecy of a coming seed that would crush satan. Jesus was that seed, and became the last Adam. 1 Cor 15:45 Jesus came to give his life as a ransom for all who would follow him. Mat 20:28 He opened the way for us to regain all that Adam and Eve had lost for us. One might wonder why Mat 20:28 says many instead of all. Like Adam, life is dependent upon obedience to God. Sadly not all will choose to live up to the requirements of life in God's new world. For all those who choose to do God's will Mat 7:21 they will have the opportunity to live forever in God's righteous new Kingdom.

Again you are teaching,,,,,<"if you try to be good, you get to go to heaven".

This is "self saving"., and it can't be done.
This is : Legalism, or the Gospel of Works, which is the Devil's Gospel

Your Cult denies The Cross, and that is why you only talk about self effort, and never are you able to state that what Christ did for us, is all that God accepts to save us.
 
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Robert Gwin

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Again you are teaching,,,,,<"if you try to be good, you get to go to heaven".

This is "self saving"., and it can't be done.
This is : Legalism, or the Gospel of Works, which is the Devil's Gospel

Your Cult denies The Cross, and that is why you only talk about self effort, and never are you able to state that what Christ did for us, is all that God accepts to save us.
Not at all Be, in fact we cannot choose to to to heaven, God chooses that. We have been offered the choice of life or death however. If you choose life, then you accept the conditions of such, which means obedience to God's laws for Christians, to the best of your ability of course. What do you understand from Jesus' words at Mat 7:21-23?
 
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Behold

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Not at all Be, in fact we cannot choose to to to heaven, God chooses that.
\God offers Heaven, through the Cross of Christ.

Jesus said, "if you do not believe in me, you will DIE in your sins".

See that?
So, you have to BELIEVE.....before you DIE........not after.

Jesus said, "you must be born again"......and that can't happen after you die.......It has to happen while you are alive and can still BELIEVE.
 

Jim B

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Not at all Be, in fact we cannot choose to to to heaven, God chooses that. We have been offered the choice of life or death however. If you choose life, then you accept the conditions of such, which means obedience to God's laws for Christians, to the best of your ability of course. What do you understand from Jesus' words at Mat 7:21-23?
If you think that obedience to God's laws gets you eternal life, that is justification by works. It is what Jews believe. The New Testament says just the opposite. "For by grace you are saved through faith, and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God; it is not from works, so that no one can boast." Ephesians 2:8-9
 
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Ronald Nolette

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The Bible states we die because Adam sinned Rom 5:12. Right there in the garden of Eden, Jehovah gave the first prophecy of a coming seed that would crush satan. Jesus was that seed, and became the last Adam. 1 Cor 15:45 Jesus came to give his life as a ransom for all who would follow him. Mat 20:28 He opened the way for us to regain all that Adam and Eve had lost for us. One might wonder why Mat 20:28 says many instead of all. Like Adam, life is dependent upon obedience to God. Sadly not all will choose to live up to the requirements of life in God's new world. For all those who choose to do God's will Mat 7:21 they will have the opportunity to live forever in God's righteous new Kingdom.

Jesus death saves us. It does not open the way to salvation like a ticket to an event. But it is what was needed to pay our sin debt.

Teh obedience Jesus said is the work of God is to believe on HIm whom the Father sent.

As Paul wrote in Ephesians:

Ephesians 2:8-10

King James Version

8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.
10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

Grace through faith alone! Nothing of ourself and not of any works (obedience) Our obedience is the result of our being born again!

Paul also wrote the formula for salvation:

Romans 10:9-13

King James Version

9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.
11 For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.
12 For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him.
13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.

Works do not keep us saved, do not make us saved, do not advance our salvation, nor do not add to our salvation or standing in god.

Good works are the result of being saved, being given a new nature and new desire and working out the salvation God has already worked in us!
 
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Robert Gwin

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\God offers Heaven, through the Cross of Christ.

Jesus said, "if you do not believe in me, you will DIE in your sins".

See that?
So, you have to BELIEVE.....before you DIE........not after.

Jesus said, "you must be born again"......and that can't happen after you die.......It has to happen while you are alive and can still BELIEVE.
Do you have any Scriptural evidence to support that Be?

Yes we agree that those who are born again are anointed while they are alive. Why did you think I didn't think that? I think perhaps the misunderstanding may be because we differ in our understanding of what saved means.
 

Robert Gwin

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If you think that obedience to God's laws gets you eternal life, that is justification by works. It is what Jews believe. The New Testament says just the opposite. "For by grace you are saved through faith, and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God; it is not from works, so that no one can boast." Ephesians 2:8-9
Let me ask more clearly Jim, do you believe you do not have to do the will of God for salvation, if you are capable? I believe that although those individuals were exemplary in what they did in Jesus name, that Jesus indicated that their not being saved was because basically they ignored God's will, and worshipped in the way they desired. A great example perhaps might be religious hospitals, they certainly are a great benefit to us humans, yet although they are great works, that really has nothing to do with what our assignment as Christians is.
 

Robert Gwin

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Jesus death saves us. It does not open the way to salvation like a ticket to an event. But it is what was needed to pay our sin debt.

Teh obedience Jesus said is the work of God is to believe on HIm whom the Father sent.

As Paul wrote in Ephesians:

Ephesians 2:8-10​

King James Version​

8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.
10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

Grace through faith alone! Nothing of ourself and not of any works (obedience) Our obedience is the result of our being born again!

Paul also wrote the formula for salvation:

Romans 10:9-13​

King James Version​

9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.
11 For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.
12 For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him.
13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.

Works do not keep us saved, do not make us saved, do not advance our salvation, nor do not add to our salvation or standing in god.

Good works are the result of being saved, being given a new nature and new desire and working out the salvation God has already worked in us!
We agree on the reason Jesus had to die Ron, I am a bit saddened that you didn't continue in Romans to include 14,15 as it speaks of those who make God's name known to others, which is a requirement for salvation as well. I guess I would have to say, if what you posted was the entire Bible, I would fully agree with you, and how much simpler it would make it for us Christians.

May I ask you, and I apologize if I have asked this before, but I am an idiot and forget everything, what does Grace mean Ron?
 

Charlie24

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We agree on the reason Jesus had to die Ron, I am a bit saddened that you didn't continue in Romans to include 14,15 as it speaks of those who make God's name known to others, which is a requirement for salvation as well. I guess I would have to say, if what you posted was the entire Bible, I would fully agree with you, and how much simpler it would make it for us Christians.

May I ask you, and I apologize if I have asked this before, but I am an idiot and forget everything, what does Grace mean Ron?

Robert, I see you're still teaching legalism. Just can't figure out that Grace is a free gift through faith, nothing we can do to deserve it.

But you keep trying don't you? Not going to work out well for you, my friend.

Why not come to the knowledge that we work because we are saved, not to get saved?
 
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Jim B

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Let me ask more clearly Jim, do you believe you do not have to do the will of God for salvation, if you are capable? I believe that although those individuals were exemplary in what they did in Jesus name, that Jesus indicated that their not being saved was because basically they ignored God's will, and worshipped in the way they desired. A great example perhaps might be religious hospitals, they certainly are a great benefit to us humans, yet although they are great works, that really has nothing to do with what our assignment as Christians is.
Once a person is saved, they do the will of God as directed by the Holy Spirit. Nobody has to do the will of God, but once a person is born again, they are motivated to follow His direction for their lives.
 

Ronald Nolette

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We agree on the reason Jesus had to die Ron, I am a bit saddened that you didn't continue in Romans to include 14,15 as it speaks of those who make God's name known to others, which is a requirement for salvation as well. I guess I would have to say, if what you posted was the entire Bible, I would fully agree with you, and how much simpler it would make it for us Christians.

May I ask you, and I apologize if I have asked this before, but I am an idiot and forget everything, what does Grace mean Ron?


One thing I find ironic. You through accepting the indoctrination of the Watchtower make such a fuss over the name Jehovah, yet can yopu tell me how many times does the name appear in the inspired NT written by the apostles of God. Not once. But yet the name Jesus is gloriously splashed over all the pages of the NT !

Could it be the name Jesus i snow far more important in this age just like Paul wrote?

5 Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus:

6 Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:

7 But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:

8 And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.

9 Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name:

10 That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth;

11 And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

EVERY NAME-NOT EVERYOTHER NAME LIKE THE WATCHTOWER HAS LIED TO YOU ABOUT. AND IN A HEBREW NEW TESTAMENT VERSE 11 IS jESUS CHRIST IS YAHWEH TO THE GLORY OF GOD THE FATHER
 

JunChosen

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Not at all Be, in fact we cannot choose to to to heaven, God chooses that. We have been offered the choice of life or death however. If you choose life, then you accept the conditions of such, which means obedience to God's laws for Christians, to the best of your ability of course. What do you understand from Jesus' words at Mat 7:21-23?
The salvation of God's elect is the result of the will of the Father:

In eternity past before the foundation of the world the Father chose certain persons in Christ Jesus according to His free will in fulfillment of His plan which expressed His holy purpose.

Furthermore, those whom he chose to make eternally secure in His beloved Son He also ordained to receive the gift of faith unto eternal life, foreknowing that the elect would believe because He willed it so. According to His purpose the Father gave those whom He chose to be in Christ Jesus to His dear Son as a gift. Hence the words of the Savior "all whom the father gives me shall come to me and him who comes to me I will in no wise cast out." Jon. 6:37

This verse which is quoted so often only in the latter part because some refuse to accept the first part which declares that certain persons are the gift of the Father to the Son secondly, it is stated that without exception the all whom the Father gives shall come to the Son for the simple reason that the Father has willed it so.

Since faith is the gift of God and not the work of man's positive volition (Eph. 2:8) it is clear that it is actually exercised only by those to whom the Father predetermined to receive it. The Lord Jesus therefore concludes that the Father has ordained that all whom He chose in Christ Jesus as a gift to His eternal Son should and shall come to Him always.

Delighting in the will of his Father, the dear son declares that he will never cast out any who come to him for the fact of their coming is the evidence of the divine drawing by the father and this is why he continues saying "no man can come to me unless the father who sent me draw him." John 6:44

By this statement a second fact becomes evident not only is it true that all of whom the father has chosen in Christ Jesus as a gift to his son shall come, like it or not, but that no one else will be allowed to come that this statement created such animosity in the flesh oriented man and the disciples of Jesus that when he repeated these two ideas in one sentence saying, therefore; said I unto you "no man can come unto me except it were given him of my father," many of His disciples turned their backs on him and never followed Him again. John 6:65-66

Today, even in our time there are many who profess to be followers of Jesus who when they hear that coming to Jesus is entirely the work of God including the act of believing, they turned their backs on his word because their faith is in another Jesus and in another gospel which of course cannot save. Later, the Apostles were to have the same problem of "loss of followers" because they preach Sovereign Grace and denied man any part in perfecting the so great salvation which God has ordained for some and denied for others.

The Apostle Paul indicates that he too has heard the cries of "that's not fair" from those who find fault with the Word of God concerning the elect and the non elect, and He says this: "Nay but O man who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him who formed it, Why hast thou made me thus? Hath not the potter power over the clay of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour? What if God willing to show his wrath and to make his power known endured with much long-suffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction: And that He might make known the riches of His glory on the vessels of mercy, which He had afore prepared unto glory , Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles? Romans 9:20-24

Man rebel against the doctrines of sovereign grace and curse the messengers who declare that only those whom the father chose in eternity past to give to His Son will come to Jesus and that no others will or can come to Him, that Jesus who alone can save has said it and to reject this teaching is to reject the only one who can save.

Salvation, therefore; is the result of the Father according as he has chosen us believers in Christ before the foundation of the world that we should be holy and without blame before him in love having predestinated us unto the adoption of sons by Jesus Christ to himself according to the good pleasure of his will to the praise of the glory of His grace through which he has made us accepted in the beloved." Eph. 1:4-6. So writes Paul concerning salvation by the will of the Father
.

There are two other commentaries that applies with this segment, but the above should suffice for the moment. I'm sure everyone got the gist.
2. The work of God the Son.
3. The witness of God the Holy Spirit.

To God Be The Glory
 
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Robert Gwin

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Robert, I see you're still teaching legalism. Just can't figure out that Grace is a free gift through faith, nothing we can do to deserve it.

But you keep trying don't you? Not going to work out well for you, my friend.

Why not come to the knowledge that we work because we are saved, not to get saved?
Hi Charlie, been a while since we conversed sir, hope all is well. No sir, salvation is yet future, we build a friendship with God from knowledge, that taking in of knowledge leads to our salvation, if we apply it of course. Jn 17:3
 

Robert Gwin

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Once a person is saved, they do the will of God as directed by the Holy Spirit. Nobody has to do the will of God, but once a person is born again, they are motivated to follow His direction for their lives.
A person is not saved Jim, you simply do not understand the term. You are very correct, Jehovah forces no one to do His will, He gave us free will to choose. I would quite imagine you are very correct about those who are born again as well, although I believe they were already exemplary in serving Jehovah prior to becoming born again, having the holy spirit would definitely be a strong motivator I would imagine. I am not born again, so I can only speak from opinion, rather than experience.
 

Robert Gwin

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One thing I find ironic. You through accepting the indoctrination of the Watchtower make such a fuss over the name Jehovah, yet can yopu tell me how many times does the name appear in the inspired NT written by the apostles of God. Not once. But yet the name Jesus is gloriously splashed over all the pages of the NT !

Could it be the name Jesus i snow far more important in this age just like Paul wrote?

5 Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus:

6 Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:

7 But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:

8 And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.

9 Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name:

10 That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth;

11 And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

EVERY NAME-NOT EVERYOTHER NAME LIKE THE WATCHTOWER HAS LIED TO YOU ABOUT. AND IN A HEBREW NEW TESTAMENT VERSE 11 IS jESUS CHRIST IS YAHWEH TO THE GLORY OF GOD THE FATHER
It at least appeared in all the quoted verses sir, keep in mind the Bible does not exist, only altered versions.
 

Robert Gwin

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The salvation of God's elect is the result of the will of the Father:

In eternity past before the foundation of the world the Father chose certain persons in Christ Jesus according to His free will in fulfillment of His plan which expressed His holy purpose.

Furthermore, those whom he chose to make eternally secure in His beloved Son He also ordained to receive the gift of faith unto eternal life, foreknowing that the elect would believe because He willed it so. According to His purpose the Father gave those whom He chose to be in Christ Jesus to His dear Son as a gift. Hence the words of the Savior "all whom the father gives me shall come to me and him who comes to me I will in no wise cast out." Jon. 6:37

This verse which is quoted so often only in the latter part because some refuse to accept the first part which declares that certain persons are the gift of the Father to the Son secondly, it is stated that without exception the all whom the Father gives shall come to the Son for the simple reason that the Father has willed it so.

Since faith is the gift of God and not the work of man's positive volition (Eph. 2:8) it is clear that it is actually exercised only by those to whom the Father predetermined to receive it. The Lord Jesus therefore concludes that the Father has ordained that all whom He chose in Christ Jesus as a gift to His eternal Son should and shall come to Him always.

Delighting in the will of his Father, the dear son declares that he will never cast out any who come to him for the fact of their coming is the evidence of the divine drawing by the father and this is why he continues saying "no man can come to me unless the father who sent me draw him." John 6:44

By this statement a second fact becomes evident not only is it true that all of whom the father has chosen in Christ Jesus as a gift to his son shall come, like it or not, but that no one else will be allowed to come that this statement created such animosity in the flesh oriented man and the disciples of Jesus that when he repeated these two ideas in one sentence saying, therefore; said I unto you "no man can come unto me except it were given him of my father," many of His disciples turned their backs on him and never followed Him again. John 6:65-66

Today, even in our time there are many who profess to be followers of Jesus who when they hear that coming to Jesus is entirely the work of God including the act of believing, they turned their backs on his word because their faith is in another Jesus and in another gospel which of course cannot save. Later, the Apostles were to have the same problem of "loss of followers" because they preach Sovereign Grace and denied man any part in perfecting the so great salvation which God has ordained for some and denied for others.

The Apostle Paul indicates that he too has heard the cries of "that's not fair" from those who find fault with the Word of God concerning the elect and the non elect, and He says this: "Nay but O man who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him who formed it, Why hast thou made me thus? Hath not the potter power over the clay of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour? What if God willing to show his wrath and to make his power known endured with much long-suffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction: And that He might make known the riches of His glory on the vessels of mercy, which He had afore prepared unto glory , Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles? Romans 9:20-24

Man rebel against the doctrines of sovereign grace and curse the messengers who declare that only those whom the father chose in eternity past to give to His Son will come to Jesus and that no others will or can come to Him, that Jesus who alone can save has said it and to reject this teaching is to reject the only one who can save.

Salvation, therefore; is the result of the Father according as he has chosen us believers in Christ before the foundation of the world that we should be holy and without blame before him in love having predestinated us unto the adoption of sons by Jesus Christ to himself according to the good pleasure of his will to the praise of the glory of His grace through which he has made us accepted in the beloved." Eph. 1:4-6. So writes Paul concerning salvation by the will of the Father
.

There are two other commentaries that applies with this segment, but the above should suffice for the moment. I'm sure everyone got the gist.
2. The work of God the Son.
3. The witness of God the Holy Spirit.

To God Be The Glory
It is the will of Jehovah that His elect be saved Jun, I fully agree. That not only stops there, but He desires all people to be saved sir 2 Pet 3:9
 

Jim B

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A person is not saved Jim, you simply do not understand the term. You are very correct, Jehovah forces no one to do His will, He gave us free will to choose. I would quite imagine you are very correct about those who are born again as well, although I believe they were already exemplary in serving Jehovah prior to becoming born again, having the holy spirit would definitely be a strong motivator I would imagine. I am not born again, so I can only speak from opinion, rather than experience.
So what does "saved" mean to you? I believe that I understand the term clearly but I am interested in your opinion. You wrote this to JunChosen -- It is the will of Jehovah that His elect be saved Jun -- That not only stops there, but He desires all people to be saved -- so you must have an idea of its meaning.
 

Ronald Nolette

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It at least appeared in all the quoted verses sir, keep in mind the Bible does not exist, only altered versions.

And Jehovahs Witnesses are experts at altered versions! If you think teh English is wrong- by all means this is the place to bring your evidence.