How can the rapture be anything but pre-trib???

[rockytopva]

If it were not pre-trib then Christ comes not as a thief
If it were not pre-trib then it does not come as in the times of Noah
If it were not pre-trib then it does not come as in the times of Lot
If it were not pre-trib then there is no use being ready for it
If it were not pre-trib then it does not come as in times we think not
If it were not pre-trib then two will not be in the field and the one taken
If it were not pre-trib then two will not be at the wheel grinding and the one taken
If it were not pre-trib then it does not come as in the times of Noah

I heard John MacArthur say that if the rapture were not pre-trib then it would be a very quick trip up then to come back and reign with Christ.

 

[RANDOR]

I don't do it now....and I refuse to do at the rapture......I'm not folding my clothes.....nope...and you can't make me.

 

[Marcus O'Reillius]

Because it happens after the Great Tribulation.

Mt 24:21 For then there will be a great tribulation, such as has not occurred since the beginning of the world until now, nor ever will. 22 Unless those days had been cut short, no life would have been saved; but for the sake of the elect those days will be cut short.

Mt 24:29 "But immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light, and the stars will fall from the sky, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. 30 And then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of the sky with power and great glory. 31 And He will send forth His angels with A great trumpet and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of the sky to the other.

 

[shturt678s]

Because it happens after the Great Tribulation.

Mt 24:21 For then there will be a great tribulation, such as has not occurred since the beginning of the world until now, nor ever will. 22 Unless those days had been cut short, no life would have been saved; but for the sake of the elect those days will be cut short.

Mt 24:29 "But immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light, and the stars will fall from the sky, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. 30 And then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of the sky with power and great glory. 31 And He will send forth His angels with A great trumpet and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of the sky to the other.

Thank you for caring again!

Only a humble head's up, that is, Matt.24:21, "great tribulation" (all Greek to me, however in the Koine 'narrow sense') has already came to pass. No judgment had ever and can ever be so severe my brother. In the history of the world no judgment can be compared with this that wiped out the Jews as a nation.

Matt.24:29, we can agree to agree, hasn't happened yet. Comes to pass after the "tribulation, the great one" in the wide sense as in Rev.7:14.

Old Jack's humble lower paygrade opinion

Thank you also rocky for starting this thread and brother RANDOR, fold those clothes anyway...inspection coming up by our Lord soon.

 

[Marcus O'Reillius]

.
Hey Stuttgart, the Great Tribulation comes after the abomination is set up in the Holy Place...

Guess what Stuttgart - that hasn't happened since Daniel penned it... but it will.

So the Great Tribulation, which will nearly wipe out the Elect - hasn't happened - - - yet. But it will as well.

 

[shturt678s]

.
Hey Stuttgart, the Great Tribulation comes after the abomination is set up in the Holy Place...

Guess what Stuttgart - that hasn't happened since Daniel penned it... but it will.

So the Great Tribulation, which will nearly wipe out the Elect - hasn't happened - - - yet. But it will as well.

Thank you for your response and caring again!

Maybe your correct my brother thus let's scrutinize together, bringing brother RANDOR aboard also. Matt.24:15, "...the abomination of desolation,.." THE SAME KIND:I think this is the same abomination that was spoken through Daniel the prophet, in Dan.11:31 & 12:11 (scarcely in 9:27) when he prophesied what is recorded in IMaccabees 1:20-68, not v.57 or 54, forget. A. Epiphanes erected a pagan altar on top of the great altar of burnt sacrifice before the naos (Holy and Holy of Holies).

The abomination of desolation occurred in the Temple prior to the siege under Titus. It took place when the Zealots, who held the Temple under arms, admitted the Idumeans and as a result the Temple was deluged with blood of about 8,500 victims...good ol' Josephus, Wars, 4, 5, 1-2; also 4, 6, 3 the last sentences.

Waaay above my paygrade but gave it my best shot.

Old Jack winging it

 

[rockytopva]

Rapture is as plain as black and white....

1. Falling away
2. Revealing of the anti Christ
3. We are outta here!

2 Thessalonians 2:2-4

2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.

3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.

 

[shturt678s]

Rapture is as plain as black and white....

1. Falling away
2. Revealing of the anti Christ
3. We are outta here!

2 Thessalonians 2:2-4

2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.

3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.

Thank you for caring again!

The word "Rapture" wrongfully conveys a partial resurrection thus maybe we should use the word "Caught up" where all will be raised in the sense of Jn.5:28, 29 (although IThess.4:17 deals with only the Saints).

Secondly "Temple" in IIThess.2:4 should be rendered "Sanctuary" so not to give an impression there may be a physical "Temple" to be built at some future time.

Old Jack

 

[Retrobyter]

Shalom, gentlemen.

Thank you for caring again!

Only a humble head's up, that is, Matt.24:21, "great tribulation" (all Greek to me, however in the Koine 'narrow sense') has already came to pass. No judgment had ever and can ever be so severe my brother. In the history of the world no judgment can be compared with this that wiped out the Jews as a nation.

Matt.24:29, we can agree to agree, hasn't happened yet. Comes to pass after the "tribulation, the great one" in the wide sense as in Rev.7:14.

Old Jack's humble lower paygrade opinion

Thank you also rocky for starting this thread and brother RANDOR, fold those clothes anyway...inspection coming up by our Lord soon.

.
Hey Stuttgart, the Great Tribulation comes after the abomination is set up in the Holy Place...

Guess what Stuttgart - that hasn't happened since Daniel penned it... but it will.

So the Great Tribulation, which will nearly wipe out the Elect - hasn't happened - - - yet. But it will as well.

You're both right and you're both wrong. The problem is in thinking that the "Great Tribulation" is a mere 7 years (or 3.5 years) long. Actually, the "Great Tribulation" is the same time period as the "Time of Ya`aqov's (Jacob's) Trouble." It started in the first century A.D. but it continues through today and will continue until the Master returns. Thus, the "Great Tribulation" has lasted about 2,000 years!

First of all, it's important to understand that there is NOTHING in Scripture that demands (or even suggests) that the seventieth Seven of Dani'el 9 is in ANY WAY RELATED to the "Great Tribulation."

Second, there is nothing to suggest that even within the Revelation the "time, times, and half a time," the "forty and two months," or the "one thousand, two hundred, and sixty days" are related to the "Great Tribulation."

Third, the Great Tribulation (Greek: "thlipsis megalee" meaning "terrible pressure" or "terrible oppression") was against the Hebrews, the "chosen seed of Isra'el's race," the "elect" (Greek: "eklektoi"= "chosen" ones) NOT against the "Church!"

Fourth, the "time being shortened" is saying that there would be times of relative peace or reprieves in between times of oppression and persecution down through the years when the people would be able to rebuild their families and prosperity so they would not be entirely wiped out.

There is a subtle relationship between the two halves of the seventieth Seven of Dani'el 9 and the Great Tribulation: They act as "BOOKENDS" on either end of the Great Tribulation. The first half of Dani'el's seventieth Seven was fulfilled in Yeshua`s first Advent. The second half will be fulfilled AFTER Yeshua` returns. The Seven was split because of the rejection of the Messiah. (Matthew 23:37-39).

Shalom, RANDOR.

I don't do it now....and I refuse to do at the rapture......I'm not folding my clothes.....nope...and you can't make me.

Yuk! Yuk! What do you think angels are for?

 

[Marcus O'Reillius]

The problem is in thinking that the "Great Tribulation" is a mere 7 years (or 3.5 years) long. Actually, the "Great Tribulation" is the same time period as the "Time of Ya`aqov's (Jacob's) Trouble." It started in the first century A.D. but it continues through today and will continue until the Master returns. Thus, the "Great Tribulation" has lasted about 2,000 years!

Ah, no, again.

The Great Tribulation is not "a mere 7 years (or 3.5 years) long." It is even less than that. It is cut short after the midpoint Abomination by the arrival of the Day of the Lord, and that is the time of Jacob's trouble because God will tramp His Wrath out on Israel first.

 

[Trekson]

If y'all don't mind, I'll repost a couple of articles I wrote on the great trib and the Abomination of Desolation so as not to distract from the original OP and perhaps this particular conversation can continue there.

 

[KingJ]

Because it happens after the Great Tribulation.

Mt 24:21 For then there will be a great tribulation, such as has not occurred since the beginning of the world until now, nor ever will. 22 Unless those days had been cut short, no life would have been saved; but for the sake of the elect those days will be cut short.

Mt 24:29 "But immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light, and the stars will fall from the sky, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. 30 And then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of the sky with power and great glory. 31 And He will send forth His angels with A great trumpet and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of the sky to the other.

Hi

Just curious, if you believe this way, when do you believe the seven trumpets take place?

 

[Marcus O'Reillius]

Hi

Just curious, if you believe this way, when do you believe the seven trumpets take place?

As described: after the Great Multitude show up in Heaven with the Day of the Lord events (the sun/moon/star sign) of the sixth Seal.

Then the seventh Seal is broken and there is silence in Heaven for half an hour. This is matched in Amos 8:3 as rendered by the NIV:

Amos 8:3 "In that day," declares the Sovereign Lord, "the songs in the temple will turn to wailing. Many, many bodies—flung everywhere! Silence!"

The brings into focus the aspect of allaso for the Rapture which can be change or exchange. If we exchange the mortal for the immortal for those few surviving Elect when the Great Tribulation is abruptly cut off (like docking an animal's tail) - then this rendering answers the cryptic answer Jesus gives the Disciples on where "they" (believers) will go:

Luke 17:37 And He said to them, " Where the body is, there also the vultures will be gathered."

Remember: we are souls; we only have bodies.

After the seventh Seal is broken then and only then is the Scroll opened and God's Desolations, which had been decreed long ago, go forth.

The trumpets of Wrath are sounded by Angels.
They are numbered.
They announce an event.

The Trumpets of God are sounded by God.
They are named.
They are assembly trumpets.
Their order is First, Last, and Great.
They follow the Festivals, which as a word in the Hebrew, literally means "appointment with God."

 

[Trekson]

Hi Marcus, I like how you think. Are you pre-wrath?

 

[shturt678s]

Hi Trekson, I'm not that comfortable with the processing of the structure of thoughts?
First and foremost Rev.6:12-17 is one of a total "7" same different endings of the world. Thus no "Rapture," however the end of ends...how's that processing?

We're nearing the end of the "tribulation, the great one" which began at Lk.21:24 of course.

I'm pretty much post wrath with the miraculous preliminary judgments pouring out in the Bowls right this minute till Rev.6:12, etc. with the personal loosing of Satan again pictured at Rev.20:7.

Old Jack just winging it talking out loud again.

 

[Marcus O'Reillius]

Hi Marcus, I like how you think. Are you pre-wrath?

Yes. It is the conclusion I have come after assembling the sequence of end-time events from the major linear narratives of Daniel, Revelation, the Olivet Discourse and Paul's work in Thessalonians. Of course there are other sources for the end-times which add to the basic structure, but what has me jazzed the most, is that it is holistic and not at odds with any "fact" of end-time prophecy: it all fits.

In this, I must say I have had to come to acceptance that evil will rise and become dominant; that good will be oppressed and then persecuted. However, it's all part of God's Plan, and it's all good. "We" cannot win the day for God. Rather, only God can save us, and in the end, only Jesus can beat Satan. Now, all we have to do is endure patiently, keep the faith, and remain steadfast (in Jesus) and we will "make it." And - you don't have to "make it" to the end, to make it to Heaven.

 

[Retrobyter]

Shalom, Jack.

Thank you for caring again!

The word "Rapture" wrongfully conveys a partial resurrection thus maybe we should use the word "Caught up" where all will be raised in the sense of Jn.5:28, 29 (although IThess.4:17 deals with only the Saints).

Secondly "Temple" in IIThess.2:4 should be rendered "Sanctuary" so not to give an impression there may be a physical "Temple" to be built at some future time.

Old Jack

What you said is true about the word "Rapture"; however, "harpazoo" should really be rendered "snatched away," as it also does NOT imply "in an upward direction."

Also, I know that John 5:28-29 is used by many to suggest that both resurrections occur on the same day, but these verses do NOT imply that, either!
John 5:24-30
24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.
25 Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live.
26 For as the Father hath life in himself; so hath he given to the Son to have life in himself;
27 And hath given him authority to execute judgment also, because he is the Son of man.
28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.
30 I can of mine own self do nothing: as I hear, I judge: and my judgment is just; because I seek not mine own will, but the will of the Father which hath sent me.
KJV

At NO point in this statement does Yeshua` imply WHEN they will hear His voice! He's just making the point that they ALL SHALL hear His voice at some time in the now (Yeshua`s "now" when He spoke these words) or in the future! And, later, in John 11:43-44, Elezar ("Lazarus" in Greek) DOES hear His voice! And, notice too, that this is a LITERAL, BODILY RESURRECTION! (I say that last sentence more for the sake of others who are reading along.)

Now, about your rendering of "Sanctuary" for the Greek word "naos," that may SEEM like a good way out for you to ignore what 2 Thes. 2:4 says, but you're neglecting other passages of Scripture that use THIS SAME WORD!

Acts 17:24-28
24 God that made the world and all things therein, seeing that he is Lord of heaven and earth, dwelleth not in temples (Greek: naois, plural locative of naos) made with hands;
25 Neither is worshipped with men's hands, as though he needed any thing, seeing he giveth to all life, and breath, and all things;
26 And hath made of one blood all nations of men for to dwell on all the face of the earth, and hath determined the times before appointed, and the bounds of their habitation;
27 That they should seek the Lord, if haply they might feel after him, and find him, though he be not far from every one of us:
28 For in him we live, and move, and have our being; as certain also of your own poets have said, For we are also his offspring.
KJV

Acts 19:21-25
21 After these things were ended, Paul purposed in the spirit, when he had passed through Macedonia and Achaia, to go to Jerusalem, saying, After I have been there, I must also see Rome.
22 So he sent into Macedonia two of them that ministered unto him, Timotheus and Erastus; but he himself stayed in Asia for a season.
23 And the same time there arose no small stir about that way.
24 For a certain man named Demetrius, a silversmith, which made silver shrines (Greek: naous, the plural accusative of naos)) for Diana, brought no small gain unto the craftsmen;
25 Whom he called together with the workmen of like occupation, and said, Sirs, ye know that by this craft we have our wealth.
KJV

Now, I know that Acts 17 says that God doesn't dwell in "temples (naous) made with hands," HOWEVER, that is PRECISELY the point! The fact that this word DOES refer to "temples made with hands" means that your choice to limit the usage of the word to "sanctuary," as though it COULDN'T refer to a physical building, is insufficient.

Besides, there are other locations in Scripture that tell us that there SHALL be a future "temple made with hands!" Remember: God has NEVER dwelt in a "temple made with hands!" Shlomoh (Solomon) admitted this from the dedication of the building!

1 Kings 8:22-29
22 And Solomon stood before the altar of the LORD in the presence of all the congregation of Israel, and spread forth his hands toward heaven:
23 And he said, LORD God of Israel, there is no God like thee, in heaven above, or on earth beneath, who keepest covenant and mercy with thy servants that walk before thee with all their heart:
24 Who hast kept with thy servant David my father that thou promisedst him: thou spakest also with thy mouth, and hast fulfilled it with thine hand, as it is this day.
25 Therefore now, LORD God of Israel, keep with thy servant David my father that thou promisedst him, saying, There shall not fail thee a man in my sight to sit on the throne of Israel; so that thy children take heed to their way, that they walk before me as thou hast walked before me.
26 And now, O God of Israel, let thy word, I pray thee, be verified, which thou spakest unto thy servant David my father.
27 But will God indeed dwell on the earth? behold, the heaven and heaven of heavens cannot contain thee; how much less this house that I have builded?
28 Yet have thou respect unto the prayer of thy servant, and to his supplication, O Lord my God, to hearken unto the cry and to the prayer, which thy servant prayeth before thee to day:
29 That thine eyes may be open toward this house night and day, even toward the place of which thou hast said, My name shall be there: that thou mayest hearken unto the prayer which thy servant shall make toward this place.
KJV

I hope this helps you.

----------

Shalom, "Marcus O'Reillius."

Ah, no, again.

The Great Tribulation is not "a mere 7 years (or 3.5 years) long." It is even less than that. It is cut short after the midpoint Abomination by the arrival of the Day of the Lord, and that is the time of Jacob's trouble because God will tramp His Wrath out on Israel first.

Think of a two-dimensional graph such that the x-axis is time and the y-axis is the intensity of pressure that a people suffer. Now, picture the graph looking like that of a heart monitor, with peaks and troughs. God didn't cut the graph vertically at the end (in the future), God cuts the graph HORIZONTALLY and shifts it down (effectively raising the x-axis)! THAT is how the "days of trouble" are shortened! He won't shorten the TIME SPAN; He will shorten the number of TROUBLE-DAYS DURING that time span!

The Jews (including other Isra'elites, as well) and true Gentile Believers (who MIGHT call themselves "Christian") have been suffering these "trouble-days" of persecution for almost two millennia now! However, God gives them times of reprieve so that they won't be persecuted out of existence! Persecutions, houndings, banishment, inquisitions, pogroms, the Holocaust, suicide bombings, bus bombings, missile launches from Gaza - if these had been a steady bombardment, all would have died out long ago! BUT, God is faithful - He is LOYAL and CONSISTENT - who will not allow us to be tested above our endurance!

1 Corinthians 10:11
13 There hath no temptation (Greek: peirasmos = testing, a "putting to proof") taken you but such as is common to man: but God is faithful, who will not suffer you to be tempted (Greek: peirastheenai = to-be-tested) above that ye are able; but will with the temptation (Greek: sun too peirasmoo = with the testing) also make a way to escape, that ye may be able to bear it.
KJV

I know that most use this verse for the INTERNAL testing we all go through, but it is also true for the EXTERNAL testing we might suffer by means of persecution from others!

 

[Marcus O'Reillius]

Retro, that's what you say, and I'm not going to go down your rabbit hole. I mean, it's well and fine, and all that, but you're simply not going to convince me no matter how much "logic" you put forth in your arguments.

Jesus said:

Mt 24:15 "Therefore when you see the abomination of desolation which was spoken of through Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place ( let the reader understand), (skipping the instruction to the Jews in Judea) 21 For then there will be a great tribulation, such as has not occurred since the beginning of the world until now, nor ever will. 22 Unless those days had been cut short, no life would have been saved; but for the sake of the elect those days will be cut short.

So it works this way:
1. The midpoint abomination of Daniel 9:27 - (Yeah, yeah, I know, I've got Daniel 9;27 ALL WRONG according to you)
2. The Great Tribulation decimates the Elect to the point of extinction.
3. God cuts those days short.

I figure the Great Tribulation in weeks or months - nobody really knows how long, no more than anyone will know the Day when God will begin the Day of the Lord. However! When it begins - everybody will know! Still - they won't know the hour of His paraousia.

The word for 'cut short' is an agricultural term for how a farmer would "dock" the tail of an animal. This suggests the action is swift and decisive - and - that it cuts the tail (or the time of the Great Tribulation) off short.

 

[shturt678s]

Thank you Retro, tomorrow going to have to open the good book for sure..bout time...been sinfully lazy recently.

Old Jack getting back to you for sure.

 

[KingJ]

As described: after the Great Multitude show up in Heaven with the Day of the Lord events (the sun/moon/star sign) of the sixth Seal.

Then the seventh Seal is broken and there is silence in Heaven for half an hour. This is matched in Amos 8:3 as rendered by the NIV:

Amos 8:3 "In that day," declares the Sovereign Lord, "the songs in the temple will turn to wailing. Many, many bodies—flung everywhere! Silence!"

The brings into focus the aspect of allaso for the Rapture which can be change or exchange. If we exchange the mortal for the immortal for those few surviving Elect when the Great Tribulation is abruptly cut off (like docking an animal's tail) - then this rendering answers the cryptic answer Jesus gives the Disciples on where "they" (believers) will go:

Luke 17:37 And He said to them, " Where the body is, there also the vultures will be gathered."

Remember: we are souls; we only have bodies.

After the seventh Seal is broken then and only then is the Scroll opened and God's Desolations, which had been decreed long ago, go forth.

The trumpets of Wrath are sounded by Angels.
They are numbered.
They announce an event.

The Trumpets of God are sounded by God.
They are named.
They are assembly trumpets.
Their order is First, Last, and Great.
They follow the Festivals, which as a word in the Hebrew, literally means "appointment with God."

Ok, but then what is the time frame looking like? God's wrath is poured out on the earth for how many months and years?

I like the fact that you agree that we are with Him when this happens. That is the chief issue / assumption with post trib thought. As never in scripture has God's wrath ever landed on His 'good' people.

Just also curious. Do you believe that if we came face to face with the anti-Christ (not likely for you and me, but surely for some)....that if we said ''I rebuke you in Jesus name'' ...he will just stand there and laugh at us?