How Could Have Satan Sinned?

[DNB]

This view underpins the arbitrary view of sin's definition. I hold that sin is the cause of death.....nothing arbitrary about it.

You're right, very good point - sin is fundamentally sin from eternity, nothing circumstantial about it. But, not always, i.e. dietary laws, festival observances, purification rites (superficial), ....Even eating of the forbidden fruit, for eating fruit is not inherently wrong - disobeying God is.

But, to display God's enactment of justice, I use the flood as a prime example. This was entirely premeditated and precipitated by God's spontaneous intervention in world events. God ordained a flood to obliterate 99% of mankind, they suffered and died. This was the not the effects of a natural law, as in when one treats another unjustly, consequences invariably arise.

 

[quietthinker]

You're right, very good point - sin is fundamentally sin from eternity, nothing circumstantial about it. But, not always, i.e. dietary laws, festival observances, purification rites (superficial), ....Even eating of the forbidden fruit, for eating fruit is not inherently wrong - disobeying God is.

But, to display God's enactment of justice, I use the flood as a prime example. This was entirely premeditated and precipitated by God's spontaneous intervention in world events. God ordained a flood to obliterate 99% of mankind, they suffered and died. This was the not the effects of a natural law, as in when one treats another unjustly, consequences invariably arise.

I have questions about this.
going forward in time to today...if the nuclear buttons are pressed for whatever reason and the world is destroyed (of which we have the capability) would that be God's doing or man's?

 

[Brakelite]

Whenever people try to pass off the woman in Revelation 12 as the ekklesia or body of Christ they do so recklessly and mangle the Scriptures in the process. Prior to its metaphorical marriage to the Lamb, the body of Christ is described as a virginal bride, and it is absurd to suggest the bride of Christ gives birth to the Christ child as described in Revelation 12 and then after His ascension flees into the desert.

2Co 11:2 For I am jealous over you with godly jealousy: for I have espoused you to one husband, that I may present you as a chaste virgin to Christ.
Rev 19:7-8 Let us be glad and rejoice, and give honour to him: for the marriage of the Lamb is come, and his wife has made herself ready. (8) And to her was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white: for the fine linen is the righteousness of saints.

The woman of Revelation 12 represents the OT church, restored.
Clothed with the sun. Light. Adam and Eve were clothed in light. God is clothed in light and they were created in His image. They were not naked before sin. It was after sin, when they lost the light, they realized they were naked, and needed covering.
Standing on the moon. No longer standing on the sophistry and lies of the devil...hast God said etc...but on the word of God.
!2 stars. Israel. When did this woman get pregnant? Genesis 3:15. God promised He would give her a seed, 'your seed' shall bruise the serpent. Throughout the OT the woman was travailing in birth and pained to be delivered of the Messiah.
Many times the dragon stood before the woman, to destroy the child. Satan however was never sure what child was the Christ. First was Abel...then Cain...maybe Job? Moses was almost killed and he was a type of the future deliverer. Finally it was Herod who stood before the woman and sent soldiers into Bethlehem to destroy Christ. The whole chapter is about restoration of God's people.

After the ascension and the apostolic age, the church did flee into the wilderness to escape persecution, first pagan Rome, then Papal Rome. IT wasn't until the removal of civil power from the hands of Papal Rome in the 18th century that the church was finally free of that overt danger. Those 6 verses cover 6000 years of human history. And are a summary of the first 11 chapters of Revelation.

 

[DNB]

I have questions about this.
going forward in time to today...if the nuclear buttons are pressed for whatever reason and the world is destroyed (of which we have the capability) would that be God's doing or man's?

In context to this conversation, God's. Just like when the Assyrians came and decimated the northern tribes, and the Babylonians ruthlessly and viciously annihilated the southern tribes, Moses predicted this before Assyria and Babylonia were even a capable force, thus only by the hands of God could this have been fulfilled. This is where the harmonization is requisite. Evil men acting out their own evil intent, by the intent of God.

I'm sorry QT, I know how your question created a predicament in charging God with man's crimes. But, I think that you avoided the more pointed scenario that I brought up, the flood. I chose this specifically because it is not possible for any other force than by God's hand, to cause the earth to react in the manner that it did, that caused the deluge. Yes, your question is much more complicated, which, again, is why i made the effort to find a less ambiguous event to asses.

 

[quietthinker]

In context to this conversation, God's. Just like when the Assyrians came and decimated the northern tribes, and the Babylonians ruthlessly and viciously annihilated the southern tribes, Moses predicted this before Assyria and Babylonia were even a capable force, thus only by the hands of God could this have been fulfilled. This is where the harmonization is requisite. Evil men acting out their own evil intent, by the intent of God.

I'm sorry QT, I know how your question created a predicament in charging God with man's crimes. But, I think that you avoided the more pointed scenario that I brought up, the flood. I chose this specifically because it is not possible for any other force than by God's hand, to cause the earth to react in the manner that it did, that caused the deluge. Yes, your question is much more complicated, which, again, is why i made the effort to find a less ambiguous event to asses.

I wonder if it was beyond mankind to create a disaster like the flood as in Noah's day.
Interestingly enough there were about the same amount of people on the planet at the time of Noah from what I have read as there are today. We just assume that they were not technologically advanced. Do we suppose that Adam, straight from the Creators hand, made in his (God's) image, was a dumbo?.....that his abilities and capabilities were less than ours today....that he was all brawn and no brain? (we do have quiet a high opinion of ourselves and our capabilities today....a bit like Lucifer?)
We might need to rethink that. Have we advanced or are we retarded.....and how is that assessed....over millennia?

 

[keithr]

Firstly, there is the Father, the Word/Son, and the Holy Spirit, and "these three are one" (1 Jn. 5:7), meaning a threefold and single nature of God, what many call the Trinity, or the "The Most Holy Trinity."

The KJV version of 1 John 5:7 is infamous for being a spurious verse, possibly modified by the inclusion of somone's handwritten comment - a copying error from the days before printing presses when all Bibles were hand written. The words "in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one" are not part of the original Scriptures. It's not found in any Greek manuscript before the sixteenth century. So it reads (WEB):

7) For there are three who testify:
8) the Spirit, the water, and the blood; and the three agree as one.​

But let's not digress into a discussion about the Trinity (again)! I've already discussed that in this discussion - https://www.christianityboard.com/threads/the-seed-of-your-righteousness.36386/page-12#post-903280.

Secondly, the Blessed Virgin Mary is the Mother of Jesus, and thus the Mother of God.

The introduction to The Poem of the Man-God claims that Mary was also God's wife - ridiculous!

any information missing inside, but found outside of it, such as the title "Queen of Heaven," would mean it is not Scripture. However, this does not also mean the information is automatically fiction.

No, but you need to be very careful about believing anything outside of the Bible. As the apostle John put it:

"Beloved, don’t believe every spirit, but test the spirits, whether they are of God, because many false prophets have gone out into the world" (1 John 4:1).

So at the very least you shouldn't trust it unless it can be confirmed correct by the Bible.

According to Bishop Boland of the Birmingham, Alabama Diocese, in a letter to him from Cardinal Ratzinger in 1993 regarding The Poem of the Man-God, the Cardinal's permission to publish the Work is implicit in his supposed words "any future reissue of the work" must bear the disclaimer. As for the disclaimer, the following is also presumably quoted from the Cardinal's letter: "it might be clearly indicated from the very first page that the 'visions' and 'dictations' referred to in it are simply the literary forms used by the author to narrate in her own way the life of Jesus. They cannot be considered supernatural in origin."

In other words, it was considered a work of fiction, based on the author's understanding of the Bible stories. With multiple bishops, cardinals and popes questioning its trustworthiness, and with clear contradictions with the Bible, I wouldn't waste much time on reading it, let alone believing it to be truth.

Jesus, praying to God for the church, said, "Sanctify them in your truth. Your word is truth" (John 17:17). We should trust that God has arranged for His word to us to be found in the Bible, and very suspicious of anything outside of it claiming to be God's word. We should be like the Bereans, of whom Paul said:

"Now these were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, examining the Scriptures daily to see whether these things were so" (Acts 17:11).

 

[DNB]

I wonder if it was beyond mankind to create a disaster like the flood as in Noah's day.
Interestingly enough there were about the same amount of people on the planet at the time of Noah from what I have read as there are today. We just assume that they were not technologically advanced. Do we suppose that Adam, straight from the Creators hand, made in his (God's) image, was a dumbo?.....that his abilities and capabilities were less than ours today....that he was all brawn and no brain? (we do have quiet a high opinion of ourselves and our capabilities today....a bit like Lucifer?)
We might need to rethink that. Have we advanced or are we retarded.....and how is that assessed....over millennia?

Well, again, I don't that there was anything ambiguous about the circumstances surrounding the flood, to question who exactly precipitated, architected and ordained it. The flood waters opened up from the bottom of the seas, not only the 40 consecutive days of rain.

No, I hope that no one thinks that Adam's intellectual capacity was any less formidable and sophisticated, than ours today. There is no reason to make this induction, historically or Biblically. Technology was nowhere near what we have today, obviously.

 

[Stumpmaster]

I have questions about this.
going forward in time to today...if the nuclear buttons are pressed for whatever reason and the world is destroyed (of which we have the capability) would that be God's doing or man's?

Based on the prophecies to OT Israel warning of "the spoiler" that God was sending to punish them I would say when time's up for planet earth and its population it will be according to God's timetable and there will be absolutely nothing mankind can do to stop all the catastrophes foretold in the Bible from happening.

In the first 9 verses of Jeremiah 15 the horrors that awaited idolatrous, unrepentant Israel are foretold and the offenders are sentenced as follows:

• To death
• To the Sword
• To the Famine
• To the Captivity

The language in Jeremiah 15:1-9 is as powerful as the invading forces and accompanying troubles that are to do the spoiling of rejected Israel, and 4 appointed "kinds" to devour and destroy are given particular mention:

1. The sword to slay
2. The dogs to tear
3. The birds of the heaven
4. The beasts of the earth

Jeremiah's "spoiler alert" holds nothing back as verse after verse describes the punishment to be afflicted on Israel because of the evil done in Jerusalem by Manasseh, King of Judah.

Jer 15:4 And I will cause them to be removed (mistreated) into all kingdoms of the earth, because of Manasseh the son of Hezekiah king of Judah, for that which he did in Jerusalem.

• They will be treated horribly by the earth's kingdoms
• They will go unpitied, with no sympathy
• The Lord's hand will be stretched against them to destroy
• They will be dispersed like winnowed chaff, bereaved of their children, and destroyed as a people
• Their terror from the spoiler will be sudden, resulting in widowhood
• They will languish and expire being disgraced and humiliated by those appointed to put them to the sword.

All the above things happened to Israel just as Jeremiah prophesied.
The 8 OT Spoiler Alerts

Isa_16:4 Let my outcasts dwell with you, Moab; be you a covert to them from the face of the spoiler: for the extortioner is at an end, the spoiler ceases, the oppressors are consumed out of the land.
Isa_21:2 A grievous vision is declared unto me; the treacherous dealer deals treacherously, and the spoiler spoils. Go up, O Elam: besiege, O Media; all the sighing thereof have I made to cease.
Jer_6:26 O daughter of my people, gird you with sackcloth, and wallow yourself in ashes: make you mourning, as for an only son, most bitter lamentation: for the spoiler shall suddenly come upon us.
Jer_15:8 Their widows are increased to me above the sand of the seas: I have brought upon them against the mother of the young men a spoiler at noonday: I have caused him to fall upon it suddenly, and terrors upon the city.
Jer_48:8 And the spoiler shall come upon every city, and no city shall escape: the valley also shall perish, and the plain shall be destroyed, as the LORD has spoken.
Jer_48:18 You daughter that does inhabit Dibon, come down from your glory, and sit in thirst; for the spoiler of Moab shall come upon you, and he shall destroy your strong holds.
Jer_48:32 O vine of Sibmah, I will weep for you with the weeping of Jazer: your plants are gone over the sea, they reach even to the sea of Jazer: the spoiler is fallen upon your summer fruits and upon your vintage.
Jer_51:56 Because the spoiler is come upon her, even upon Babylon, and her mighty men are taken, every one of their bows is broken: for the LORD God of recompences shall surely requite.

 

[DNB]

Based on the prophecies to OT Israel warning of "the spoiler" that God was sending to punish them I would say when time's up for planet earth and its population it will be according to God's timetable and there will be absolutely nothing mankind can do to stop all the catastrophes foretold in the Bible from happening.

In the first 9 verses of Jeremiah 15 the horrors that awaited idolatrous, unrepentant Israel are foretold and the offenders are sentenced as follows:

• To death
• To the Sword
• To the Famine
• To the Captivity

The language in Jeremiah 15:1-9 is as powerful as the invading forces and accompanying troubles that are to do the spoiling of rejected Israel, and 4 appointed "kinds" to devour and destroy are given particular mention:

1. The sword to slay
2. The dogs to tear
3. The birds of the heaven
4. The beasts of the earth

Jeremiah's "spoiler alert" holds nothing back as verse after verse describes the punishment to be afflicted on Israel because of the evil done in Jerusalem by Manasseh, King of Judah.

Jer 15:4 And I will cause them to be removed (mistreated) into all kingdoms of the earth, because of Manasseh the son of Hezekiah king of Judah, for that which he did in Jerusalem.

• They will be treated horribly by the earth's kingdoms
• They will go unpitied, with no sympathy
• The Lord's hand will be stretched against them to destroy
• They will be dispersed like winnowed chaff, bereaved of their children, and destroyed as a people
• Their terror from the spoiler will be sudden, resulting in widowhood
• They will languish and expire being disgraced and humiliated by those appointed to put them to the sword.

All the above things happened to Israel just as Jeremiah prophesied.
The 8 OT Spoiler Alerts

Isa_16:4 Let my outcasts dwell with you, Moab; be you a covert to them from the face of the spoiler: for the extortioner is at an end, the spoiler ceases, the oppressors are consumed out of the land.
Isa_21:2 A grievous vision is declared unto me; the treacherous dealer deals treacherously, and the spoiler spoils. Go up, O Elam: besiege, O Media; all the sighing thereof have I made to cease.
Jer_6:26 O daughter of my people, gird you with sackcloth, and wallow yourself in ashes: make you mourning, as for an only son, most bitter lamentation: for the spoiler shall suddenly come upon us.
Jer_15:8 Their widows are increased to me above the sand of the seas: I have brought upon them against the mother of the young men a spoiler at noonday: I have caused him to fall upon it suddenly, and terrors upon the city.
Jer_48:8 And the spoiler shall come upon every city, and no city shall escape: the valley also shall perish, and the plain shall be destroyed, as the LORD has spoken.
Jer_48:18 You daughter that does inhabit Dibon, come down from your glory, and sit in thirst; for the spoiler of Moab shall come upon you, and he shall destroy your strong holds.
Jer_48:32 O vine of Sibmah, I will weep for you with the weeping of Jazer: your plants are gone over the sea, they reach even to the sea of Jazer: the spoiler is fallen upon your summer fruits and upon your vintage.
Jer_51:56 Because the spoiler is come upon her, even upon Babylon, and her mighty men are taken, every one of their bows is broken: for the LORD God of recompences shall surely requite.

Yes, it's hard to deny the sovereignty of God behind all the wrath and vindication that you pointed out, that are described in the Bible.
Even Saul was austerely punished, by God, for not entirely annihilating the Amalekites, an ordinance from God.
Wisdom must reconcile this disposition of God as being, the legislator of justice and punishment, as much as the author of compassion, mercy and grace.

 

[keithr]

Choose any translation of that verse you please. It supports my position.

How does "For there are three who testify: the Spirit, the water, and the blood; and the three agree as one" support your claim that 'the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit, "these three are one"'?

It is not ridiculous if you understand the term "spouse" from a spiritual standpoint as it is meant to be taken. Nuns, for example, consider themselves "brides of Christ."

Well all Christians are to become part of the bride of Christ. The term bride is used as an indication of the relationship between Jesus and the Church; likewise Christians are also called brothers of Jesus. However, the Bible's only mention of a wife-like or marriage relationship with God is when God uses the term as an indication of His relationship with Israel - it is never applied to Mary:

(Jer 3:14) “Return, backsliding children,” says Yahweh; “for I am a husband to you.
(Hos 2:16) It will be in that day,” says Yahweh, “that you will call me ‘my husband,’ and no longer call me ‘my master.’
(Jer 31:32) not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which covenant of mine they broke, although I was a husband to them,” says Yahweh.

And to demonstrate that God uses the term husband as figure of speech, and not an actual relationship:
(Jer 3:20) “Surely as a wife treacherously departs from her husband, so you have dealt treacherously with me, house of Israel,” says Yahweh.

The Poem of the Man-God is the Gospel expanded, and with her other writings, is in perfect consonance with the canonical Gospels.

I'll say it one more time, we should be very reluctant to trust anyone who adds to the Gospel as recorded in the Bible. We should take heed of Paul's words in Galations 1 (MKJV):

6) I marvel that you so soon are being moved away from Him who called you into the grace of Christ, to another gospel,
7) which is not another, but some are troubling you, and desiring to pervert the gospel of Christ.
8) But even if we or an angel from Heaven preach a gospel to you beside what we preached to you, let him be accursed.
9) As we said before, and now I say again, If anyone preaches a gospel to you beside what you have received, let him be accursed.

 

[keithr]

I was referring to 1 Jn. 5:7 not 5:8.

So was I! To try to make it clearer for you, as you don't seem to be paying attention to the details, the words in bold below should be discarded (KJV):

(1Jn 5:7) For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.
(1Jn 5:8) And there are three that bear witness in earth, the Spirit, and the water, and the blood: and these three agree in one.

"In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God" (Jn. 1:1). How can the Word be with God, and be God unless two in one? Who is the Word made flesh? Jesus. Therefore, Jesus, the Son of God, is also God, or God the Son, in the form of flesh.

As I said previously:

But let's not digress into a discussion about the Trinity (again)! I've already discussed that in this discussion - The Seed of your Righteousness

In that thread I covered John 1:1, John 8:58 and other verses. (There's a lot to cover when discussing the Trinity, so it would be better for it to have its own seperate thread.)

"I and the Father are one" (Jn. 10:30). Again, Jesus is confirmed to be God in another form.

Okay, let's look at this passage (John 10:22-39), not just the single verse taken out of its context.

Jesus plainly admits to being the Messiah. He says that the Jews did not believe him because they were not of his sheep. He says that his father (thereby claiming that he was the son of God) gave the sheep to him, and that his father was greater than all, implicitly including himself. Regarding the sheep he says that no one is able to pluck them out of his or his father's hand. (The sheep refered to in the Old Testament was the nation of Israel, the sheep that Jesus claimed to have been given are Christians - a subset of the nation of Israel).

When the Jews said that Jesus was claiming to be God, he corrected their misunderstanding and plainly told them that he was the son of God.

The Jews, who were not of his sheep, tried to stone Jesus. But we are Christians (his sheep) and are supposed to know better than those who "know not what they do". They misunderstood Jesus, but we should not. Jesus said "I am God's son", surely that is not too difficult to understand and accept (I'm sure Jesus did not lie!).

Here is an axtract from "Studies in the Scriptures Vol 5 - The Atonement Between God and Man" concerning John 10:30 :

This text is considered a proof that our Lord Jesus is entitled to the name Jehovah - that he was both the Father and the Son - or that he had no Father and was not a Son.

Having vague, mysterious thoughts respecting "trinity," a remarkably large number of otherwise intelligent people seem to forget that there is any other kind of oneness than personal oneness. On the contrary, however, in all other uses of the word the thought is that of harmony - oneness of plan, purpose, will, mind. How blind a theory can make us is well illustrated by the fact that our Lord's own explanation and illustration of the manner in which he and the Father are one is very generally overlooked. He said in prayer to the Father -

"I pray not for the world but for them which thou hast given me, for they are thine ... neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word; that they all may be one, as thou, Father, art in me and I in thee, that they also may be one in us ... that they may be one, even as we are one: I in them and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one." (John 17:9, 20-23)​

Here the oneness of the Church, for which the Lord prayed, is specially stated to be exactly the same as the oneness between the Father and the Son. That the oneness of the Church is oneness of mind and not a personal oneness needs no discussion. Evidently the thought in the Redeemer's mind was oneness of heart, oneness of purpose, oneness of will, amongst his followers; and that oneness identical with the oneness between the Father and himself. And this oneness was to be attained on the part of the Church in the same manner exactly as the oneness between the Father and the Son was attained. The Son was at one with the Father because he fully accepted as his own the Father's will, saying, "Not my will but thine be done." So each member of the Church is to come into perfect harmony with the Father, and with the Son, by doing not their own wills, but by setting aside their own wills and accepting the will of Christ, which is the will of the Father. Thus, and thus only, will the Church ever come into the oneness for which our Lord here prayed, and which he refers to as of the same kind as the oneness between the Father and himself. How strange that any should attempt to misuse and pervert these our Lord's words, to make them support the unreasonable and unscriptural doctrine of a Trinity - three Gods in one person. On the contrary, how beautiful and reasonable is the Scriptural oneness of the spirit of the Father and Son and Church.​

(To be continued.)

 

[keithr]

Continuing...

"...Christ Jesus: Who being in the form of God..." (Phil. 2:5-6). Again, Jesus is confirmed to be God in another form.

It doesn't say God in another form. In context again:

2) make my joy full, by being like-minded, having the same love, being of one accord, of one mind;
3) doing nothing through rivalry or through conceit, but in humility, each counting others better than himself;​

5) Have this in your mind, which was also in Christ Jesus,
6) who, existing in the form of God, didn’t consider equality with God a thing to be grasped,
7) but emptied himself, taking the form of a servant, being made in the likeness of men.​

So this is simply saying that before Jesus was transformed by God to become human, he was in the same form, or nature as God, i.e. he was a spirit being. Note that despite that, it says that Jesus did not consider himself to be equal to God. Just as Paul had said 3 verses earlier, that we should count others better than ourselves, Paul is then saying that Jesus also considered God better than himself, even though he was in the form of God. This is not saying that Jesus was God (Yahweh) in human form. Also read more of the context:

8) And being found in human form, he humbled himself, becoming obedient to the point of death, yes, the death of the cross.
9) Therefore God also highly exalted him, and gave to him the name which is above every name;​

It says God exalted Jesus and gave him a name, so clearly God was not Jesus, and Jesus was not God.

"Thomas answered, and said to him (Jesus): My Lord, and my God" (Jn. 20:28). Again, Jesus is confirmed to be God in another form.

Thomas is here acknowledging that Jesus was to him his Lord and god. The word god means a mighty one, superior to all mankind. It doesn't mean that he regarded Jesus as being Yahweh (the only almighty God), our heavenly father. Calling some one a god doesn't mean that they are considered to be almighty God (Yahweh):

(Psa 82:6) I said, “You are gods, all of you are sons of the Most High.
(Joh 10:34) Jesus answered them, “Isn’t it written in your law, ‘I said, you are gods?’
(Joh 10:35) If he called them gods, to whom the word of God came (and the Scripture can’t be broken),​

(1 Cor 8:6) "yet to us there is one God, the Father, ... and one Lord, Jesus Christ"

"Going therefore, teach ye all nations; baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost" (Mat. 28:19). If God [the Father], God [the Son] (Jesus), and the Holy Spirit were not God then Jesus was speaking blasphemy,

This verse does not say that the Father, Son and Holy Ghost are all parts of a threesome of gods, it just says to baptize in their name. I have a suspicicion that this may be a spurious verse, because if you check all occurrences when it is recorded that the disciples baptized people in the name of whoever, it is always just in the name of Jesus:

Act_2:38 Peter said to them, “Repent, and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of sins, and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.
Act_8:16 for as yet he had fallen on none of them. They had only been baptized in the name of Christ Jesus.
Act_10:48 He commanded them to be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ. Then they asked him to stay some days.
Act_19:5 When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.

So they were either disobeying Jesus (unlikely) or that verse in Matthew has been altered at some point. (But in either case it doesn't imply a trinity of gods.)

Furthermore, Jesus is the Son of God the Father and the Blessed Virgin Mary, therefore why is it unreasonable to say She is a spiritual Spouse to God the Father...

Because Jesus existed thousands of years before Mary, and Mary was just one human being, part of God's creation which Jesus created.

"But he [Jesus] answered and said unto him that told him, Who is my mother? and who are my brethren?
And he stretched forth his hand toward his disciples, and said, Behold my mother and my brethren!
For whosoever shall do the will of my Father which is in heaven, the same is my brother, and sister, and mother." (Mat 12:48-50).

So by your reasoning we are all a "spiritual Spouse" to our Father!

Therefore, there is truthful information that exists but is not found in the Bible.

There is also false information that is found outside of the Bible!

 

[keithr]

As I said, "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God" (Jn. 1:1). How can the Word be with God, and be God unless two in one? Who is the Word made flesh? Jesus. Therefore, Jesus, the Son of God, is also God, or God the Son, in the form of flesh.

"The Jews therefore said to him: Thou art not yet fifty years old, and hast thou seen Abraham? Jesus said to them: Amen, amen I say to you, before Abraham was made, I am" (Jn. 8:58). Refer to Ex. 3:14 where God the father of Moses's father, Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob identifies Himself as "I am." Again Jesus is confirmed to be God and if He were not then He would have been speaking blasphemy.

I have already pointed out that I have commented on the above verses in another thread, but as you seem too lazy to go and read that I'll respond in this thread to make it easier for you:

John 1:1
In order to be sure that we have the correct interpretation of any Bible verse, our interpretation must be in harmony with other Bible verses. The Bible states over and over that Jesus is God's son, and not that he is God. At Jesus' baptism there was even a miraculous audible anouncement declaring such - "And lo a voice from heaven, saying, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased" (Mat 3:17). God was here clearly saying that Jesus was God's son, and that God was pleased with him. He didn't say "I am here and I'm pleased with myself"!

The King James translation of John 1:1 is a bit misleading here, as it says, “In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God”. However, a more precise and consistent translation would say, “the Word was with the God, and the Word was a God”. The Hebrew word elohim that is translated as God in the Old Testament is not equivalent to the word Yahweh (God’s name). Its significance is mighty one, and it is frequently used for others beside the almighty Yahweh. It is used for angels, great men and false gods. In the New Testament, the Greek word theos is equivalent to elohim, and signifies “a mighty one”. It’s the word theos that’s used in John 1:1. It was as the Word of God, through whom the world and mankind were created, that Jesus was referred to as a god, but not the God – the Father, or Yahweh. This is consistent with the prophetic words of Psalms 89:19,26,27 - “Then thou spakest in vision to thy holy one, and saidst, I have laid help upon one that is mighty; I have exalted one chosen out of the people”, “He shall cry unto me, Thou art my father, my God, and the rock of my salvation. Also I will make him my firstborn, higher than the kings of the earth”.

Some modern Bible translations do translate John 1:1 differently, for example the REB (Revised English Bible, first published in 1989) that says, “In the beginning the Word already was. The Word was in God’s presence, and what God was, the Word was”. This is less misleading than the King James Version of the Bible. The important thing is to realise that the Bible does not contradict itself, so we can use other Scripture verses to help deduce the correct translation of verses like this that can be translated in more than one way. At the time when the King James Version of the Bible was translated (in the sixteenth century) the translators were firmly entrenched in the Trinity doctrine and so they probably thought it was not misleading to translate it the way they did. However, “the Word was God” is inconsistent with verse 14 which declares that Jesus was the only begotten of God ("And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth"); to say that Jesus was God, was begotten by God, and was with God is inconsistent and not possible. The only sensible conclusion is the more correct translation of “the Word was a god”. This correct translation is also confirmed by other scriptures, e.g. Col 1:15-20, which speaking of Jesus says:

“Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature: For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him: And he is before all things, and by him all things consist. And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the pre-eminence. For it pleased the Father that in him should all fullness dwell; And, having made peace through the blood of his cross, by him to reconcile all things unto himself; by him, I say, whether they be things in earth, or things in heaven.”

Consider also other verses which John wrote, clearly indicating that he believed that Jesus was God's son who was with God in the beginning:

1 John 1:1-3:
That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon, and our hands have handled, of the Word of life; (For the life was manifested, and we have seen it, and bear witness, and shew unto you that eternal life, which was with the Father, and was manifested unto us; ) That which we have seen and heard declare we unto you, that ye also may have fellowship with us: and truly our fellowship is with the Father, and with his Son Jesus Christ.

2 John 1:3 Grace, mercy, and peace will be with us, from God the Father, and from the Lord Jesus Christ, the Son of the Father, in truth and love.


John 8:
51) Most certainly, I tell you, if a person keeps my word, he will never see death.”
52) Then the Jews said to him, “Now we know that you have a demon. Abraham died, and the prophets; and you say, ‘If a man keeps my word, he will never taste of death.’
53) Are you greater than our father, Abraham, who died? The prophets died. Who do you make yourself out to be?”
54) Jesus answered, “If I glorify myself, my glory is nothing. It is my Father who glorifies me, of whom you say that he is our God.
55) You have not known him, but I know him. If I said, ‘I don’t know him,’ I would be like you, a liar. But I know him, and keep his word.
56) Your father Abraham rejoiced to see my day: and he saw it, and was glad.
57) The Jews therefore said to him, “You are not yet fifty years old, and have you seen Abraham?”
58) Jesus said to them, “Most certainly, I tell you, before Abraham came into existence, I am.”

Jesus said that Abraham foresaw the coming of the Messiah and rejoiced in that knowledge. So the Jews accused Jesus of not being old enough to have met Abraham and know what he thought or said. Jesus replied saying that he was alive even before Abraham was born. The Greek words that are translated as "I am" are ego (I) and eimi (to exist), meaning "I have existed" or "I have been present", and they are not the same as the Hebrew word in Exo 3:15, which is Yahweh.

In Exo 3:13 Moses asked, "when I come unto the children of Israel, and shall say unto them, The God of your fathers hath sent me unto you; and they shall say to me, What is his name? what shall I say unto them?"
14) God said to Moses, “I AM WHO I AM,” and he said, “You shall tell the children of Israel this: ‘I AM has sent me to you.’”
15) God said moreover to Moses, “You shall tell the children of Israel this, ‘Yahweh, the God of your fathers, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob, has sent me to you.’ This is my name forever, and this is my memorial to all generations.

So in this passage God is saying that His name shall be Yahweh, and not hayah or "I am". God's name Yahweh, which is used over 6500 times in the Old Testament, is not the same as the Hebrew for "I am". Strong's Concordance says:

"I am" = הָיָה
hâyâh - pronounced haw-yaw

Yahweh = יְהֹוָה
- pronounced yaa-way (

)

The Jews then wanted to stone Jesus not because he was saying that he was Yahweh, but because by claiming he had been living from before Abraham was born he therefore seemed to be claiming he wasn't human.

I suggest you read this article.

Okay, I read it. Nevertheless, baptizing in the name of the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit, does not imply or mean that the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit must be three beings in one Godhead, or whatever other version of the definition of Trinity that people might choose to believe.

 

[keithr]

In addition to what I wrote about John 8:58 above, note also the following examples of other people speaking the words "ego eimi", and translated as "I am":

(Mat 8:9) For I am also a man under authority, having under myself soldiers. I tell this one, ‘Go,’ and he goes; and tell another, ‘Come,’ and he comes; and tell my servant, ‘Do this,’ and he does it.”
(Luk 1:18) Zacharias said to the angel, “How can I be sure of this? For I am an old man, and my wife is well advanced in years.”
(Luk 1:19) The angel answered him, “I am Gabriel, who stands in the presence of God. I was sent to speak to you, and to bring you this good news.
(Joh 1:27) He it is who, coming after me, who has been before me; of whom I am not worthy to loosen the thong of His sandal.
(Act 10:21) And going down to the men, those sent to him from Cornelius, Peter said, Behold, I am the one you are seeking. For what reason have you come?
(Act 21:39) But Paul said, I am a man, a Jew of Tarsus in Cilicia, a citizen of no small city. And I beseech you, allow me to speak to the people.

In none of the above cases were the people speaking those words considered to be claiming to be God, so why would you assume that the Jews would have considereed that Jesus was claiming to be God just because he used the words "I am"? Also bear in mind that although the New Testament was originally written in Greek, the normal spoken language that Jesus and the other Jews spoke was Aramaic (neither Hebrew nor Greek). One more point, why would Jesus say "Before Abraham existed, 'God's name'"? That wouldn't make any sense, neither could it be construed as Jesus claiming to be God!

 

[Dcopymope]

When he was in Heaven and there's no sin in Heaven? Also, would God forgive him if he repented?

Where does it say there is no sin, or iniquity in heaven, for one? And..are we talking heaven, or the throne room, the actual presence of God himself? I don't think the two are the same.

 

[April_Rose]

Where does it say there is no sin, or iniquity in heaven, for one? And..are we talking heaven, or the throne room, the actual presence of God himself? I don't think the two are the same.

This should help. Galatians 5:19-21

 

[Dcopymope]

This should help. Galatians 5:19-21

Right, but, in context the scriptures concerning iniquity, inheriting the kingdom, and seeing the very face of God himself is in relation to humanity, not angels. Satan is not a flesh and blood being, and we know he is still up there accusing the brethren, and his chosen people before God right now, as shown in Job for one. The war in heaven that breaks out between Satan and Michael after the seventh trumpet is blown in Rev 12 is another smoking gun key piece of evidence showing this to be the case. We should know for a fact that he is still up there. He ain't gonna be kicked out of heaven until Michael kicks him out. Just because we can't stand before God, see his face and live to tell about it because of our sinful nature as flesh and blood beings, doesn't mean Satan can't.

He is an entirely different creature than us, and a far more powerful one. The problem is we have this fanciful notion of heaven being this peaceful, drama free, colorful place of solitude, when scripture indicates nothing of the kind. It can't possibly be, if a damn war eventually breaks out. So going to heaven should be the LAST thing we should be looking forward to when we die, unless you want to be in the midst of the chaos that is sure to pop off in the future. Its time to put a stop to these fantasies, because our time is running short. I made all this very clear before, but people just prefer to be stiff necked about what is plainly stated in scripture.

(Revelation 12:10) "And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night."

 

[keithr]

Most biblical scholars completely refute the interpretation of Jn. 1:1 you have quoted. Furthermore, it is not just the KJV that translates this verse with "...the Word was with God, and the Word was God." In fact, outside of the widely discredited NWT, you will not find agreement with what you have posted.

The Emphatic Diaglott New Testament translates it as "In a beginning was the Word, and the Word was with the God, and a god was the Word".

The Good News Bible translates it as "Before the world was created, the Word already existed; he was with God, and he was the same as God."

"I AM" is a well-known reference for God when He speaks of Himself. God the Father does go on to say that His name is "Yahweh," but that takes nothing away from the fact that Jesus declared He is also God with "I AM."

Jesus more clearly declared that he had a God, the same God as our God:

(Mat 27:46) About the ninth hour Jesus cried with a loud voice, saying, “Eli, Eli, lima sabachthani?” That is, “My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?”
(Joh 20:17) Jesus said to her, “Don’t hold me, for I haven’t yet ascended to my Father; but go to my brothers, and tell them, ‘I am ascending to my Father and your Father, to my God and your God.’”
(Rev 2:7) ... To him who overcomes I will give to eat from the tree of life, which is in the Paradise of my God.
(Rev 3:2) ... for I have found no works of yours perfected before my God.
(Rev 3:12) He who overcomes, I will make him a pillar in the temple of my God, and he will go out from there no more. I will write on him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, the new Jerusalem, which comes down out of heaven from my God, and my own new name.

Furthermore, to handwave away Jesus being the Son of God, and existing in the time of Abraham (and before), to still say that He is not Divine does not make sense to me. Is it because you believe Jesus did exist before, but not as a man, rather Michael the Archangel?

It's quite straighforward. Jesus was God's only begotton son, who was with God before God started creating the universe and life on earth. God had Jesus perform the creative work, because God wanted Jesus to have preeminence above all other created beings, both human and angelic. After Adam and Eve disobeyed God's command, God arranged for Jesus to become mankind's saviour by transforming him from a mortal spiritual being into a human being. So Jesus was alive well before Abraham was born, and yet he was fully human when he told the Jews that he had been in existence from before Abraham's birth. He was never almighty God Yahweh, and he wasn't God when he said he had existed before Abraham.

After Jesus' voluntary death on the cross, which he endured in order to pay the penalty of sin and therefore redeem mankind, God then rewarded Jesus by not just restoring him to the spiritual life that he had before he was made human, but He gave him the same immortal spiritual nature that God has. Jesus previously was not immortal (it was God "alone has immortality, dwelling in unapproachable light; whom no man has seen, nor can see" - 1Tim 6:16), but now, since his resurrection, Jesus is also immortal; and it is our hope to also become immortal, like Jesus and God -
"Beloved, now we are children of God, and it is not yet revealed what we will be. But we know that when he is revealed, we will be like him; for we will see him just as he is" (1 John 3:2).

Some supporting verses:

(Col 1:16) For by him [Jesus] all things were created, in the heavens and on the earth, things visible and things invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers; all things have been created through him, and for him.
(Col 1:17) He is before all things, and in him all things are held together.
(Col 1:18) He is the head of the body, the assembly, who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence.

(Joh 17:4) I glorified you on the earth. I have accomplished the work which you have given me to do.
(Joh 17:5) Now, Father, glorify me with your own self with the glory which I had with you before the world existed.

But God gave Jesus even more glory than he had before God made him human. Halleluyahweh!

 

[keithr]

"The eye of the soul is the will" - Jesus

I couldn't find that in the Bible. I don't think you should claim that Jesus said something if it's not in the Bible and you're not quoting the reference. That is deliberate deception.

Here's a video that I think it would be useful for you to watch, titled 'Doctrines of Demons - Part 1' -