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Featured How Free Will Destroys the Gospel

Discussion in 'Christian Debate Forum' started by Dave L, Nov 19, 2018.

  1. Dave L

    Dave L Well-Known Member

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    The way the gospel works. In the gospels, Jesus tells us to preach the gospel. Preaching means to announce. So when people hear the gospel followed by whoever believes has eternal life, those who believe know God saved them. And when told to repent and undergo baptism, it confirms their faith as they follow through.

    But, people turn preaching the gospel into an offer of salvation for those who comply. So immediately they turn the gospel into law and make obedience, or works, the means of salvation. They say belief is a choice we must make before God will save us. So these people trust in themselves for choosing salvation and then trust in Christ only in a secondary sense.

    Does God save people this way? Yes because salvation is by grace. And they like the first group believed when they heard about salvation through Christ. Had they not believed, they would not have chosen to believe. So either way, whoever believes has eternal life.
     
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  2. Grams

    Grams Well-Known Member

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    Well ! the gospel is different now for us Gentiles.....
    Before you had to do works ...... Before JESUS went to the cross for our sins....
    Man had to understand what this was all about........ things changed..........
    When we read the bible , over a few times. It becomes more clear.
    JESUS did it for us.......... How Blessed we are !
     
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  3. Dave L

    Dave L Well-Known Member

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    The gospel was the same for Abraham as it is for us. Only we no longer see through the glass darkly, but now we see face to face.

    Salvation was never by works. Works of the law could not save.
     
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  4. jaybird

    jaybird Active Member

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    Jesus was obedient to the law. Follow Jesus.
     
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  5. Enoch111

    Enoch111 Well-Known Member

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    How Free Will Destroys the Gospel

    This is a rather puzzling statement. The Gospel cannot be destroyed by free will, since every person must freely respond to the Gospel.
     
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  6. Dave L

    Dave L Well-Known Member

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    Jesus fulfilled the law and abolished it on the cross. If you want to follow it, don't forget you cannot heat your house on Saturday in sub zero temps.
     
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  7. CoreIssue

    CoreIssue Well-Known Member

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    Big difference was Abraham was never born again but we are if saved. Salvation was always a promise for him, not a fact in his lifetime.
     
  8. Dave L

    Dave L Well-Known Member

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    Abraham was born again, as was Abel, Job, Moses, and so on. All of the faithful in Romans 11 were born again because faith/faithfulness is a fruit of the Holy Spirit.
    “However, you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. But if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to Him.” (Romans 8:9) (NASB95)
     
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  9. CoreIssue

    CoreIssue Well-Known Member

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    You are trying to quote post resurrection as if it covers pre cross.

    If they were in fact born again there would've been no one in paradise for Christ to lead to heaven in his resurrection.


    John 16:7 New International Version (NIV)
    7 But very truly I tell you, it is for your good that I am going away. Unless I go away, the Advocate will not come to you; but if I go, I will send him to you.

    In the OT the holy spirit was on the earth but Christ did not not even exist yet. There was no when dwelling.

    No mention of the holy spirit when Christ was on the earth.

    No mention of the holy spirit in the trib or MK. No mention of earthly Church either.

    Amillennialism is wrong.
     
  10. Dave L

    Dave L Well-Known Member

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    You need to look at the Old Testament with the added information from the new. Jesus is the lamb slain from the foundation of the world. All who were ever saved were saved by his shed blood on the cross. Faith is a fruit of the Holy Spirit. Thus, Abraham had the Holy Spirit along with the rest of the believers in Hebrews 11.
     
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  11. CoreIssue

    CoreIssue Well-Known Member

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    I repeat, if they had been born again in the OT there would've been no one in paradise to ascend to heaven with Christ at his resurrection.

    They received the blood of Christ at his resurrection. There's no blood to receive prior.
     
  12. "ByGrace"

    "ByGrace" Well-Known Member

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    Amen, well said.
    For years it has bugged me how 'they' nag the Good News 'at people' ...and amazingly they manage turn the Good News into bad news and as you say...just make it a law..

    Good thread Dave. :)
     
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  13. jaybird

    jaybird Active Member

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    Fulfill means He obeyed the law. That's what doer of the law refers to.
    If u think it means abolish then this would be a deviation from the example established by Jesus.
     
  14. "ByGrace"

    "ByGrace" Well-Known Member

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    Why are we now focussing on the law...this thread is about the GOSPEL = Good News...
    @Dave L was not speaking about 'The law ' ...he mention how the gospel is so often turned in 'a' law.

    You are off topic and sending it down some rabbit hole... LOL
     
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  15. Dave L

    Dave L Well-Known Member

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    The Ten Commandments were the Old Covenant. They called it the Ark of the Covenant because it held the Ten Commandments written in stone. The New Covenant replaced the Old. We use the old for instruction and commentary. But we are not under it.
     
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  16. CoreIssue

    CoreIssue Well-Known Member

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    Mosaic law was the old covenant. The 10 commandments were not mosaic law.


    Salvation is by grace through faith via repentance.

    Just believing is not enough. Demons and Satan believe.

    Remember, in the Greek to believe means to follow and obey. So don't confuse what the English means with what the Greek means.
     
    Last edited: Nov 19, 2018
  17. CoreIssue

    CoreIssue Well-Known Member

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    Does not change the reality there was no blood, etc until Christ resurrected.

    If what you see is true then there wouldn't then no trainer saints following Christ in heaven from paradise.
     
  18. Dave L

    Dave L Well-Known Member

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    So God has bad credit?
     
  19. Dave L

    Dave L Well-Known Member

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    The Ten Commandments were the Old Covenant. Pleas consider the following proof texts.

    “And He (God) wrote upon the tables the words of the covenant, the Ten Commandments.” Exodus 34:28

    “And He declared unto you His covenant, which He commanded you to perform, even the Ten Commandments.” Deuteronomy 4:13:

    “When I was gone up into the mount to receive the tables of stone, even the tables of the covenant.” Deuteronomy 9:9:

    “So I turned and came down from the mount . . . and the two tables of the covenant were in my two hands.” Deuteronomy 9:15:

    “There was nothing in the ark save the two tables of stone which Moses put there at Horeb, when Jehovah made a covenant with the children of Israel, when they came out of the land of Egypt,” I Kings 8:9

    “And there have I set a place for the ark, wherein is the covenant of Jehovah, which he made with our fathers, when he brought them out of the land of Egypt.” I Kings 8:21

    The second of these two texts is repeated in II Chronicles 6:11.

    Consider “The ark of the covenant” that held the Ten Commandments (Numbers 10:33; Jeremiah 3:16, and other places)

    Also; “It contained the golden altar of incense and the ark of the covenant covered entirely with gold. In this ark were the golden urn containing the manna, Aaron’s rod that budded, and the stone tablets of the covenant.” (Hebrews 9:4) (NET)
     
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  20. CoreIssue

    CoreIssue Well-Known Member

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    It was a promise he fulfilled. Saying credit is an attempt to spin.
     
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