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Featured How is the PreTrib Rapture not make God a liar?

Discussion in 'Eschatology & Prophecy Forum' started by Vexatious, Sep 30, 2018.

  1. Vexatious

    Vexatious Active Member

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    Those who preach a PreTrib Rapture say the rapture is imminent; that it could happen at any time. And, that being raptured is a great hope of all Christians.

    If there's a pretrib rapture, God has known before the beginning of the world what day it'll be. God knew there wouldn't be a rapture for the past 2000 years. He knew everyone for the past 2000 years would die. Yet, Pretribbers insist the Bible teaches us, and all those who have died, to hope to be raptured. People who hoped for the rapture, but have died, had a false hope.

    If the Bible teaches an imminent rapture, hasn't every passed generation been lied to by God? It wasn't imminent. It was a false hope. It is a lie.
     
  2. Enoch111

    Enoch111 Well-Known Member

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    Imminent simply means that it could happen at any moment, at any time. By definition, that means it is NOT guaranteed to happen within a specific time period.

    Christians who had this "Blessed Hope" had it in the first century, and they also have it in the 21st century. So it is not a false hope or a lie. Why? Because God has given His people this Blessed Hope.

    It is God who decides as to when the Church has been completed with its full complement of Gentiles. Only God knows that number, so we have no business trying to claim that the Rapture should have already happened.
    What we can say today is that it is very near, given all the events which have been taking place over the last century.
     
  3. Truth

    Truth Well-Known Member

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    Well I do not except a pre-trib rapture, And this dead horse has been kicked around on this Forum way too many time's. Don't get me wrong, I Agree with you, and you will just be kicking against the goad's!
    Everyone is entitled to what they except or believe, So if you want to pursue this Topic, be ready for hard core belief's from both side's.
    I know a Teacher that taught pre-Trib for 20 year's, and has now repented as to not be held accountable before our Savior!

    Carry On, and may God bless your endeavor!
     
  4. Vexatious

    Vexatious Active Member

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    Actually, the word "imminent" does mean guaranteed to happen soon. If it doesn't happen soon, it's not imminent. If someone tells you something is imminent, and he knows its not soon, he's a liar. The god of pretribbers is a liar.
     
  5. Ac28

    Ac28 Active Member

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    The Bible doesn't teach a pre-trib rapture. There are not 2 second second Comings Comings. The second Coming and, thus, the rapture, occur at the end of the tribulation, at the 7th trump of Revelation, and the resurrected Saints go out to meet Christ in the air and then retun to earth with Him, just like the Bible says.

    As it is in the case of at least half of the stuff we're taught in the denominational churches, the rapture is 100% all-Israel and, whether we believe it or not, we Gentiles, today, will never get it. Since Israel, as a nation, hasn't existed in God's eyes for 1955 years, no one living in the last 1900+ years will have any part in the rapture. The man-made concept of a rapture that takes all the resurrected Saints to Heaven is impossible because no Jew, except Christ, ever had a chance of going to Heaven. Search and See.

    The only Calling for anyone living today is the uncreated Heavenly Places, the Holiest of All, where Christ sits at the right hand of God, Ephesians 1:20 (Christ), Ephesians 2:6 (Us) . Instead of the rapture, we will be translated to this Highest Heaven, immediately before Christ is manifested there, to be manifested with Him. Our "rapture" is called the "Appearing" and it's totally different, Colossians 3:4 , 1 Timothy 6:14 , 2 Timothy 4:1 , 2 Timothy 4:8 , Titus 2:13 . The only place in the Bible you'll find out anything about the Calling and Hope of the new Gentile church of today is in Paul's 7 post-Acts Epistles, Eph, Phil, Col, 1&2Tim, Titus, and Philemon. Our new church in those 7 books was hid in God in a mystery (a secret) since the world began, Ephesians 3:9 , Colossians 1:26 , until Christ revealed it to Paul, Ephesians 3:3 , and Paul revealed it to us in his post-Acts books, starting with Eph, Ephesians 3:9 . Since everything in Paul's 7 Acts books, Romans, 1&2Cor, 1&2Thess, Gal, and Heb, was contained in Moses and the OT Prophets, Acts of the Apostles 26:22 , it is impossible that we can find anything about our Hope, Calling, or our future in ANY of those other 59, all-Israel books. The only place that information is available is in Paul's 7 post-Acts books.
     
    Last edited: Oct 5, 2018
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  6. Vexatious

    Vexatious Active Member

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    Anyone else want to try to explain how the Dispy's pretrib rapture doctrine doesn't make God a liar?

    Dispies, you had your chance, too bad you have nothing that can be defended.
     
  7. ScottA

    ScottA Well-Known Member

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    It is amazing that anyone who reads the bible would believe anything other than what it says...and it does not say there is to be a pre', or post', or any such mass rapture event at all. But it does say that each person departs this world "each in his own order." And that is the truth of it.
     
  8. Enoch111

    Enoch111 Well-Known Member

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    It would be a sheer waste of time and energy to explain these things to some people. There are times when Christians must simply ignore barbs and move on.
     
  9. Enoch111

    Enoch111 Well-Known Member

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    You are suggesting that anyone attempting to understand Bible prophecy to see how it fits into our times ("anything other") is not believing the Bible. The exact opposite is the case.

    You also say that there is no "mass rapture event at all". Which means that you do not believe the Bible is this instance!

    Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together* with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. (1 Thess 4:17)

    *caught up together = Gk harpagesometha = Latin rapiemur = English rapture = translation = Gk metatithemi = translate, transfer, change.

    By faith Enoch was translated that he should not see death; and was not found, because God had translated him: for before his translation he had this testimony, that he pleased God. (Heb 11:5)

    GENESIS 5
    21 And Enoch lived sixty and five years, and begat Methuselah:
    22 And Enoch walked with God after he begat Methuselah three hundred years, and begat sons and daughters:
    23 And all the days of Enoch were three hundred sixty and five years:
    24 And Enoch walked with God: and he was not; for God took him.

    Enoch is a type of the Church. He was taken to Heaven before the Flood, and the Church will be taken to Heaven before the Tribulation and the Great Tribulation.
     
  10. ScottA

    ScottA Well-Known Member

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    You cannot use one quote from Paul to argue against another quote from Paul.

    He said "caught up together", and also said, "each in his own order." But how can both be true? Your answer does not explain why, it only explains your own limited understanding, because you have only believed half of the truth.

    But I will explain why in giving the whole truth: Paul gave both sides of the-world-vs.-the-kingdom equation. In the world each person departs "each in his own order." But in the kingdom all are "caught up together." You see, in the world things are not "the same yesterday, today, and forever", but in the kingdom...they are.

    So...which is the greater truth, that of the world, or that of the kingdom? And if you only say one is true and I only say the other is true, have we both not made God out to be a liar by His servant Paul? Therefore, both are true, but the greater truth is with God rather than with men. Thus, the scriptures speak of timeless things as timeless, in present tense. But for the sake of the salvation of many even the whole truth is only revealed to "each in his own order."

    So, then, it is true that all are "caught up together"...but not as men believe it to be. No mass rapture event occurs in the world.
     
    Last edited: Oct 6, 2018
  11. larry2

    larry2 Active Member

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    Hi ScottA. I'm probably reading this differently than most, but when John in Revelation is shown different groups arrive in separate companies, and placed in diverse proximities to God's throne, each faction of the body of Christ is described; 24 elders, 4 living ones, great multitude, and 144,000, and they appear to have the place they receive according to their spiritual walk determined by the judgment seat of Christ.

    Blessings in Christ Jesus.
     
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  12. Vexatious

    Vexatious Active Member

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    Yes, it's a sheer waste of time and energy when you have no defense of your false, anti-Christian doctrines. It's completely legitimate for me to ask how the pretrib rapture doctrine doesn't make God a liar. It's completely illegitimate for you to pretend that my question is a frivolous barb -- but what choice do you have when you're on the side of wrong.
     
  13. Dave L

    Dave L Well-Known Member

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    The really big problem apart from no mention of a pre-trib rapture anywhere in the bible, is knowing Christ will return "7 years" after the "rapture" should it occur. Only God knows when Jesus will return. There's lots more wrong with the pre-trib view too, but this is enough for now.
     
  14. ScottA

    ScottA Well-Known Member

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    Thank you Larry!

    My question was rhetorical, and then followed by an explanation of why and how both statements by Paul are true even though they would seem to be contradictory.

    My point was two-fold: 1) We followers of Christ cannot use the scriptures one against the other to make our own point. We must instead reconcile the two, and thereby be reconciled to each other. 2) More importantly, by reconciling both statements by Paul, we should see that there are two things being said, one answering the question of when and how the so-called rapture takes place, not as a mass event to be looked for in the future, but just as he stated it "each in his own order", i.e., over time; and then the other perspective shown by Paul's other statement and clarification, is that there is indeed a mass event, not in the world, but in heaven. The reason being, that in heaven everything is "the same yesterday, today, and forever", but not so in the world. Therefore, he made both statements differently regarding the same subject. Now, if we are to seek the truth, it is our job to "rightly divide the word" accordingly.

    So, it is both, and both statements are true and there is no contradiction from Paul, and nothing for the body of Christ to disagree on or debate.
     
    Last edited: Oct 6, 2018
  15. ScottA

    ScottA Well-Known Member

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    This too is not beyond our knowledge.

    There is but one day and time "that no one knows" but God, and yes, it occurs "7 years after", which is to say "after all things have been accomplished" or "in the end." And that date and time is just as the apostle Paul stated: "each in his own order." In other words...when each leaves this world. But let me say it plainly: When each [dies] (this is the "day and time that no one knows").

    Thus, according to the times of this world, each departs "each in his own order", but in heaven where all is "the same, yesterday, today, and forever",...we all arrive in one mass event - together!
     
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  16. Dave L

    Dave L Well-Known Member

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    There are many fallacies in the Dispensational end times view. Not only can you calculate the time of Christ's return if the pre trib rapture were true. It would also place saints in glorified bodies in the "millennium" as the only occupants. With no others for Satan to deceive after the 1000 years end. Because flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom. So you end up with Satan using glorified saints, now called Gog and Magog to attack the remaining glorified saints.
     
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  17. n2thelight

    n2thelight Well-Known Member

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    How can it happen at anytime,when Christ told us everything that would happen before His return?
     
  18. Enoch111

    Enoch111 Well-Known Member

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    So if you wish to add "before His return" that's fine. However, that was already implied.
     
  19. n2thelight

    n2thelight Well-Known Member

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    Wish to add?What did I add?

    Matthew 24:3 "And as He sat upon the mount of Olives the disciples came unto Him privately, saying, "Tell us, when shall these things be and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?"

    All the way through the rest of this chapter Christ tells us everything that will and must happen before His return,what part you not getting?
     
  20. stunnedbygrace

    stunnedbygrace Well-Known Member

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    There are verses that seem at first to war with one another. On the one hand, we are told He will come suddenly, when least expected, life going on as normal like in the days of Noah.

    And yet, the terrible things about to come on the earth during that time of testing, before He returns, would preclude life going on as normal. Who would have weddings and feasts through famine and a lack of potable water and such miseries as are de scribed for that seven years?

    Also, how does He come when least expected if it clearly shows all that will happen before His return so that you most definitely WOULD be expecting Him?

    The verses cannot fit the same timeframe or event. They cant.

    just as they didn't know Jesus would come a second time and so tried to cram all prophecy together, asking Him, will you at this time restore the kingdom to Israel? - I think we try to cram them all together too.
     
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