How were the O T saints saved?

[H. Richard]

Were the people of God in the OT saved by grace, IN THE SAME WAY WE ARE TODAY, under Paul's gospel of God's grace?

IMHO my answer is NO. They were under God's mercy, not under the gospel of God's grace." Read Psalm 136. The word "mercy" is used 26 times in 26 verses! This is the Biblical testimony as to how God worked in the Old Testament, “”through His mercy.””

I believe the OT saints were placed in a place called Paradise by God's mercy to wait for the promised Christ (Jesus) to actually pay for their sins of the flesh. He, God, overlooked their sin in the flesh and placed them in a place called Paradise.

IMHO their coming out of Hades is what Jesus meant when he said the Gates of Hades will not prevail against His Church by preventing them from coming out.

I have said what I believe, now I will show you why. Let us see what the Scriptures tell us.

We see that Jesus went from the cross to be three days in the heart of the earth.

Matt 12:40
40 "For as Jonah was three days and three nights in the belly of the great fish, so will the Son of Man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth.
(NKJ)

We see what he did while He was there.

1 Pet 3:19
19 by whom also He went and preached to the spirits in prison,
(NKJ) ----- (prison = Paradise = center of the earth)

We must consider that when Jesus told the thief on the cross that "TODAY" you will be with me in Paradise" He meant with Him in the heart of the earth and that means that Paradise, AT THAT TIME, was a section in Hades spoken of by Jesus in Luke 16:19-26.

The spirits in prison were the O.T. spirits of the people that believed God and were accounted as righteous and placed in the bosom of Abraham until Jesus paid for their sins. Accounted does not mean that any of them had their sins washed in the blood of Christ since it had not yet been shed.

Remember the story Jesus told about the rich man and the beggar named Lazarus (Luke 16:19-26) The beggar was placed in Abraham's bosom, not Jesus' bosom. However, today, we are placed in Jesus' bosom (in Christ) and "perhaps" we join those that were put there when they left Paradise.

So then, the OT saints were "accounted as righteous" but not yet righteous, because their sins had not yet been paid for.

We, today, under the gospel of God's grace which is in effect today, are made Children of God right now. We are made righteous right now when we place our faith in Him because the sin debt has already been paid. According to Paul, today, when a believer dies, he is instantly in the presence of Jesus.

Gal 3:8-9
8 And the Scripture, """"foreseeing that God would"" justify the Gentiles by faith, preached the gospel to Abraham """"beforehand,""" saying, "In you all the nations shall be blessed."
9 So then those who are of faith are blessed with believing Abraham.
(NKJ)

If you look at the words between the """" """" you see that the gospel of justification under grace (the gospel of God's grace) was not an accomplished fact ""AT THAT TIME"" but was told it would occur in the future. I believe it occurred after Jesus died on the cross, was raised from the dead, and God sent Paul to proclaim it.

 

[Episkopos]

God loves His people. Those He saves are by His mercy towards them that please Him.

But there is a criteria for salvation and that is righteousness. The OT saints were declared righteous by God. God justified them because of something they did...that in God's eyes justified them.

Now no man is fully righteous so that mercy is not also needed on God's part. But love covers a multitude of sins.

Of course this is not understood in the modern church. it will be contested even as the bible bears witness of this. So then it is the words from God that are not being taken seriously.

Ez. 14:14 Though these three men, Noah, Daniel, and Job, were in it, they should deliver but their own souls by their righteousness, saith the Lord God.

20 Though Noah, Daniel, and Job were in it, as I live, saith the Lord God, they shall deliver neither son nor daughter; they shall but deliver their own souls by their righteousness.


This means that their righteous lives do not transfer over to other people.

David wanted to be judged by his own righteousness.

Ps. 7:8 The LORD judges the peoples; vindicate me, O LORD, according to my righteousness and integrity.

Ps. 18:20 The LORD has rewarded me according to my righteousness; He has repaid me according to the cleanness of my hands.

Jesus said that OUR righteousness must be real...not an outward show as the Pharisees, so that He said our righteousness must exceed theirs.

But do people understand how this works with faith, grace and holiness?? Not at all. Watch how people will try to negate the plain words from God in the pursuit of a faulty understanding.

 

[Davy]

Were the people of God in the OT saved by grace, IN THE SAME WAY WE ARE TODAY, under Paul's gospel of God's grace?

IMHO my answer is NO. They were under God's mercy, not under the gospel of God's grace." Read Psalm 136. The word "mercy" is used 26 times in 26 verses! This is the Biblical testimony as to how God worked in the Old Testament, “”through His mercy.””

I believe the OT saints were placed in a place called Paradise by God's mercy to wait for the promised Christ (Jesus) to actually pay for their sins of the flesh. He, God, overlooked their sin in the flesh and placed them in a place called Paradise.

IMHO their coming out of Hades is what Jesus meant when he said the Gates of Hades will not prevail against His Church by preventing them from coming out.

I have said what I believe, now I will show you why. Let us see what the Scriptures tell us.

We see that Jesus went from the cross to be three days in the heart of the earth.

Matt 12:40
40 "For as Jonah was three days and three nights in the belly of the great fish, so will the Son of Man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth.
(NKJ)

We see what he did while He was there.

1 Pet 3:19
19 by whom also He went and preached to the spirits in prison,
(NKJ) ----- (prison = Paradise = center of the earth)

We must consider that when Jesus told the thief on the cross that "TODAY" you will be with me in Paradise" He meant with Him in the heart of the earth and that means that Paradise, AT THAT TIME, was a section in Hades spoken of by Jesus in Luke 16:19-26.

The spirits in prison were the O.T. spirits of the people that believed God and were accounted as righteous and placed in the bosom of Abraham until Jesus paid for their sins. Accounted does not mean that any of them had their sins washed in the blood of Christ since it had not yet been shed.

Remember the story Jesus told about the rich man and the beggar named Lazarus (Luke 16:19-26) The beggar was placed in Abraham's bosom, not Jesus' bosom. However, today, we are placed in Jesus' bosom (in Christ) and "perhaps" we join those that were put there when they left Paradise.

So then, the OT saints were "accounted as righteous" but not yet righteous, because their sins had not yet been paid for.

We, today, under the gospel of God's grace which is in effect today, are made Children of God right now. We are made righteous right now when we place our faith in Him because the sin debt has already been paid. According to Paul, today, when a believer dies, he is instantly in the presence of Jesus.

Gal 3:8-9
8 And the Scripture, """"foreseeing that God would"" justify the Gentiles by faith, preached the gospel to Abraham """"beforehand,""" saying, "In you all the nations shall be blessed."
9 So then those who are of faith are blessed with believing Abraham.
(NKJ)

If you look at the words between the """" """" you see that the gospel of justification under grace (the gospel of God's grace) was not an accomplished fact ""AT THAT TIME"" but was told it would occur in the future. I believe it occurred after Jesus died on the cross, was raised from the dead, and God sent Paul to proclaim it.

Stupid Dispensationalism from those who follow John Darby's 1830's pre-trib rapture theology, trying to create TWO Gospels when there is only ever been ONE Gospel of Jesus Christ!

Those spirits in prison back to OT times still had to believe on same Gospel of Jesus Christ we have believed in order to be led out of that heavenly prison house. It was prophecy in Isaiah 42:7 that Jesus would do that.

Thus those were ALSO saved by GRACE in The Gospel of Jesus Christ. For them or for us, there is no difference on that belief, nor who it is to.

The ONLY difference between those spirits in prison is that they didn't get to live to the time of Jesus' appearance on earth, nor after His death and resurrection. But the SAME Gospel preached to us, was preached to them.

 

[Enoch111]

Were the people of God in the OT saved by grace, IN THE SAME WAY WE ARE TODAY, under Paul's gospel of God's grace? IMHO my answer is NO.

Romans 4 and Galatians 3 tell us clearly that just as Abraham believed God and it was IMPUTED to him for righteousness, sinners must believe God and believe on the Lord Jesus Christ in order to be saved, AND IT WILL BE IMPUTED TO THEM FOR RIGHTEOUSNESS. This is called salvation by grace through faith in Christ and His finished work of redemption. And Abraham rejoiced to see this. So the answer is "Yes", not "No".

ROMANS 4
1 What shall we say then that Abraham our father, as pertaining to the flesh, hath found?
2 For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God.
3 For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted [imputed] unto him for righteousness.
4 Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt.
5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.
6 Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works,
7 Saying, Blessed are they whose iniquities are forgiven, and whose sins are covered.
8 Blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not impute sin.
9 Cometh this blessedness then upon the circumcision only, or upon the uncircumcision also? for we say that faith was reckoned to Abraham for righteousness.
10 How was it then reckoned? when he was in circumcision, or in uncircumcision? Not in circumcision, but in uncircumcision.
11 And he received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness of the faith which he had yet being uncircumcised: that he might be the father of all them that believe, though they be not circumcised; that righteousness might be imputed unto them also:
12 And the father of circumcision to them who are not of the circumcision only, but who also walk in the steps of that faith of our father Abraham, which he had being yet uncircumcised.
13 For the promise, that he should be the heir of the world, was not to Abraham, or to his seed, through the law, but through the righteousness of faith.
14 For if they which are of the law be heirs, faith is made void, and the promise made of none effect:
15 Because the law worketh wrath: for where no law is, there is no transgression.
16 Therefore it is of faith, that it might be by grace; to the end the promise might be sure to all the seed; not to that only which is of the law, but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham; who is the father of us all,
17 (As it is written, I have made thee a father of many nations,) before him whom he believed, even God, who quickeneth the dead, and calleth those things which be not as though they were.
18 Who against hope believed in hope, that he might become the father of many nations, according to that which was spoken, So shall thy seed be.
19 And being not weak in faith, he considered not his own body now dead, when he was about an hundred years old, neither yet the deadness of Sara's womb:
20 He staggered not at the promise of God through unbelief; but was strong in faith, giving glory to God;
21 And being fully persuaded that, what he had promised, he was able also to perform.
22 And therefore it was imputed to him for righteousness.
23 Now it was not written for his sake alone, that it was imputed to him;
24 But for us also, to whom it shall be imputed, if we believe on him that raised up Jesus our Lord from the dead;
25 Who was delivered for our offences, and was raised again for our justification.

GALATIANS 3
6 Even as Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.
7 Know ye therefore that they which are of faith, the same are the children of Abraham.
8 And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, saying, In thee shall all nations be blessed.
9 So then they which be of faith are blessed with faithful Abraham.
10 For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them.
11 But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, it is evident: for, The just shall live by faith.
12 And the law is not of faith: but, The man that doeth them shall live in them.
13 Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree:
14 That the blessing of Abraham might come on the Gentiles through Jesus Christ; that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.
15 Brethren, I speak after the manner of men; Though it be but a man's covenant, yet if it be confirmed, no man disannulleth, or addeth thereto.
16 Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ.
17And this I say, that the covenant, that was confirmed before of God in Christ, the law, which was four hundred and thirty years after, cannot disannul, that it should make the promise of none effect.
18 For if the inheritance be of the law, it is no more of promise: but God gave it to Abraham by promise.

Your father Abraham rejoiced to see my day: and he saw it, and was glad. (John 8:56)

So once again you are manufacturing your own theology. Grace and mercy are one and the same thing. The only difference between the OT saints and the NT saints is that they could not be perfected until the resurrection of Christ and the giving of the Holy Spirit.

 

[H. Richard]

The question was not were they saved in the same way we are today but HOW< HOW< HOW were they saved.

The question was not why the O.T. saints were saved. Wake up. I said they were saints didn't I?

Today, under the gospel of God's grace given to Paul, and preached by Paul, to be absent from the body is to be with Christ who is in Heaven.

But until Jesus actually paid for the sins of the OLD TESTAMENT SAINTS no one could go to Heaven.

That is what the O.P. was all about. Sorry if people got the wrong idea but I have re-read the O.P. and can see that I did say O.T. SAINTS.

Based upon what Jesus said there was a place in the heart of the earth next to the very warm place that was called paradise and Abraham was there.

Jesus told the thief, TODAY (day 1 of 3) you will be with me in Paradise.

"H. Richard, post: 550286, member: 6940" Remember the story Jesus told about the rich man and the beggar named Lazarus (Luke 16:19-26) The beggar was placed in Abraham's bosom, not Jesus' bosom. However, today, we are placed in Jesus' bosom (in Christ) and "perhaps" we join those that were put there when they left Paradise."

 

[Davy]

The question was not were they saved in the same way we are today but HOW< HOW< HOW were they saved.

The question was not why the O.T. saints were saved. Wake up. I said they were saints didn't I?

Today, under the gospel of God's grace given to Paul, and preached by Paul, to be absent from the body is to be with Christ who is in Heaven.

But until Jesus actually paid for the sins of the OLD TESTAMENT SAINTS no one could go to Heaven.

That is what the O.P. was all about. Sorry if people got the wrong idea but I have re-read the O.P. and can see that I did say O.T. SAINTS.

Based upon what Jesus said there was a place in the heart of the earth next to the very warm place that was called paradise and Abraham was there.

Jesus told the thief, TODAY (day 1 of 3) you will be with me in Paradise.

"H. Richard, post: 550286, member: 6940" Remember the story Jesus told about the rich man and the beggar named Lazarus (Luke 16:19-26) The beggar was placed in Abraham's bosom, not Jesus' bosom. However, today, we are placed in Jesus' bosom (in Christ) and "perhaps" we join those that were put there when they left Paradise."

So how was Abraham saved? since he didn't live after Christ's death and resurrection?

Peter told us with the "spirits in prison" that Jesus led out of the prison house, which was prophecy in Isaiah 42 that He would do that. But do you really think Abraham was there as one of those 'spirits in prison' when Jesus showed in the story of Luke 16 that Abraham was on the saved side in Paradise?

At the end of John 8, Jesus showed that Abraham saw His day, and was glad. Paul in Galatians 3 said The Gospel was preached to Abraham. Melchizedek (Jesus per Heb.7) met Abraham, offered him bread and wine, and blessed him. And Paul even said that those of Faith on the Promise first given to Abraham have become "the children of Abraham". So do you really think none of the OT saints knew about The Gospel of Jesus Christ? Just because Jesus hadn't then yet died on the cross doesn't mean they didn't already believe on Him, especially with Abraham who we are given direct evidence that Jesus met him. God's Word simply points to the OT saints knowing more about The Gospel than what most preachers care to teach.

 

[Dave L]

Were the people of God in the OT saved by grace, IN THE SAME WAY WE ARE TODAY, under Paul's gospel of God's grace?

IMHO my answer is NO. They were under God's mercy, not under the gospel of God's grace." Read Psalm 136. The word "mercy" is used 26 times in 26 verses! This is the Biblical testimony as to how God worked in the Old Testament, “”through His mercy.””

I believe the OT saints were placed in a place called Paradise by God's mercy to wait for the promised Christ (Jesus) to actually pay for their sins of the flesh. He, God, overlooked their sin in the flesh and placed them in a place called Paradise.

IMHO their coming out of Hades is what Jesus meant when he said the Gates of Hades will not prevail against His Church by preventing them from coming out.

I have said what I believe, now I will show you why. Let us see what the Scriptures tell us.

We see that Jesus went from the cross to be three days in the heart of the earth.

Matt 12:40
40 "For as Jonah was three days and three nights in the belly of the great fish, so will the Son of Man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth.
(NKJ)

We see what he did while He was there.

1 Pet 3:19
19 by whom also He went and preached to the spirits in prison,
(NKJ) ----- (prison = Paradise = center of the earth)

We must consider that when Jesus told the thief on the cross that "TODAY" you will be with me in Paradise" He meant with Him in the heart of the earth and that means that Paradise, AT THAT TIME, was a section in Hades spoken of by Jesus in Luke 16:19-26.

The spirits in prison were the O.T. spirits of the people that believed God and were accounted as righteous and placed in the bosom of Abraham until Jesus paid for their sins. Accounted does not mean that any of them had their sins washed in the blood of Christ since it had not yet been shed.

Remember the story Jesus told about the rich man and the beggar named Lazarus (Luke 16:19-26) The beggar was placed in Abraham's bosom, not Jesus' bosom. However, today, we are placed in Jesus' bosom (in Christ) and "perhaps" we join those that were put there when they left Paradise.

So then, the OT saints were "accounted as righteous" but not yet righteous, because their sins had not yet been paid for.

We, today, under the gospel of God's grace which is in effect today, are made Children of God right now. We are made righteous right now when we place our faith in Him because the sin debt has already been paid. According to Paul, today, when a believer dies, he is instantly in the presence of Jesus.

Gal 3:8-9
8 And the Scripture, """"foreseeing that God would"" justify the Gentiles by faith, preached the gospel to Abraham """"beforehand,""" saying, "In you all the nations shall be blessed."
9 So then those who are of faith are blessed with believing Abraham.
(NKJ)

If you look at the words between the """" """" you see that the gospel of justification under grace (the gospel of God's grace) was not an accomplished fact ""AT THAT TIME"" but was told it would occur in the future. I believe it occurred after Jesus died on the cross, was raised from the dead, and God sent Paul to proclaim it.

All believers were saved by Christ's death just as believers today (Hebrews 11). Faith is a fruit of the Holy Spirit and if anyone has not the Holy Spirit, they are none of his. The Law was for wicked unregenerate Jews whom God forced under threat of death to act like they loved him and others.

 

[H. Richard]

So how was Abraham saved? since he didn't live after Christ's death and resurrection?

Peter told us with the "spirits in prison" that Jesus led out of the prison house, which was prophecy in Isaiah 42 that He would do that. But do you really think Abraham was there as one of those 'spirits in prison' when Jesus showed in the story of Luke 16 that Abraham was on the saved side in Paradise?

Jesus said Abraham was in Paradise and that paradise was a place in the earth next to where those that were not saved abide.

The scriptures plainly say Jesus was in the center of the earth for 3 days. A part of this place was a place of torment and the other a Paradise where Abraham was.

You just don't get it that NO ONE WENT TO HEAVEN UNTIL JESUS PAID FOR THEIR SINS OF THE FLESH. So where were the Saints of the O.T. until their sins were paid for.?????

 

[justbyfaith]

It seems to say in 2 Corinthians 12 that paradise is the third heaven.

Thoughts or comments?

 

[H. Richard]

It seems to say in 2 Corinthians 12 that paradise is the third heaven.

Thoughts or comments?

Does it say that before Jesus paid for the sins of the world or after He paid for them? Think about it!

After Jesus set them free from the place in the center of the earth where did they go? they went to Heaven.

 

[justbyfaith]

Does it say that before Jesus paid for the sins of the world or after He paid for them? Think about it!

After Jesus set them free from the place in the center of the earth where did they go? they went to Heaven.

So...two places designated paradise...one in the heart of the earth and one in the third heaven?

Just wanting to clarify.

 

[H. Richard]

So...two places designated paradise...one in the heart of the earth and one in the third heaven?

Just wanting to clarify.

Further clarification. Since all those in the earth's paradise were taken to Heaven there is no further need for one in the earth.

 

[Lady Crosstalk]

It seems to say in 2 Corinthians 12 that paradise is the third heaven.

Thoughts or comments?

In Hebraic teaching and understanding, there were three "heavens." One heaven, is, of course, the place where God Himself "dwells in unapproachable light". It is called, "the third heaven." The other two heavens were, the atmosphere around the earth--where the birds fly, and then, the universe--where the stars are.

Hades, "the place of the dead" (called sheol in Hebrew) was thought to be divided into two sections with an unbridgeable gulf between them. There was the place for the righteous dead, known as "Abraham's Bosom" or Paradise--an Eden-like place of great beauty and comfort; and there was the place for the unrighteous dead--a dark, hot and ugly place of torment. It was a sort of "holding tank" until those souls could be judged in the Final Judgment. It has different levels of punishment--the upper level with light punishment. The lowest level was said to have a gate with a road beyond, leading to the Lake of Fire. Jesus' account of the Rich Man and Lazarus from Luke 16 verifies that Hades (or sheol) was and is a real place. A source of confusion for English-speakers is that, in our English Bibles, Gehenna (the Lake of Fire) and Hades are both translated as "hell". It is thought that Jesus took the souls from Paradise to heaven with Him as the First Fruits of the First Resurrection harvest. He is, of course, the first of the First Fruits. When the Jewish-Christians were forced out of the Church, they took their knowledge of the Jewish festivals with them and we Gentiles were untutored in the significance of Jesus rising on the Feast of First Fruits.

As for the OP--it is my firm belief that the OT saints were saved in exactly the same way that we are: by believing God--having faith in the shed Blood of the Messiah ("Christos" in Greek) who would claim victory over the present world of sin and death. In the words of the last OT prophet, John the Baptist, "The Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world." The OT saints knew that the Messiah was coming.

"As in Adam, all die, so, in Christ shall all be made alive." All enemies of God will be destroyed, including His last enemy, death. (see 1 Corinthians 15:26)

 

[Jon Mathews]

Were the people of God in the OT saved by grace, IN THE SAME WAY WE ARE TODAY, under Paul's gospel of God's grace?

IMHO my answer is NO. They were under God's mercy, not under the gospel of God's grace." Read Psalm 136. The word "mercy" is used 26 times in 26 verses! This is the Biblical testimony as to how God worked in the Old Testament, “”through His mercy.””

I believe the OT saints were placed in a place called Paradise by God's mercy to wait for the promised Christ (Jesus) to actually pay for their sins of the flesh. He, God, overlooked their sin in the flesh and placed them in a place called Paradise.

IMHO their coming out of Hades is what Jesus meant when he said the Gates of Hades will not prevail against His Church by preventing them from coming out.

I have said what I believe, now I will show you why. Let us see what the Scriptures tell us.

We see that Jesus went from the cross to be three days in the heart of the earth.

Matt 12:40
40 "For as Jonah was three days and three nights in the belly of the great fish, so will the Son of Man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth.
(NKJ)

We see what he did while He was there.

1 Pet 3:19
19 by whom also He went and preached to the spirits in prison,
(NKJ) ----- (prison = Paradise = center of the earth)

We must consider that when Jesus told the thief on the cross that "TODAY" you will be with me in Paradise" He meant with Him in the heart of the earth and that means that Paradise, AT THAT TIME, was a section in Hades spoken of by Jesus in Luke 16:19-26.

The spirits in prison were the O.T. spirits of the people that believed God and were accounted as righteous and placed in the bosom of Abraham until Jesus paid for their sins. Accounted does not mean that any of them had their sins washed in the blood of Christ since it had not yet been shed.

Remember the story Jesus told about the rich man and the beggar named Lazarus (Luke 16:19-26) The beggar was placed in Abraham's bosom, not Jesus' bosom. However, today, we are placed in Jesus' bosom (in Christ) and "perhaps" we join those that were put there when they left Paradise.

So then, the OT saints were "accounted as righteous" but not yet righteous, because their sins had not yet been paid for.

We, today, under the gospel of God's grace which is in effect today, are made Children of God right now. We are made righteous right now when we place our faith in Him because the sin debt has already been paid. According to Paul, today, when a believer dies, he is instantly in the presence of Jesus.

Gal 3:8-9
8 And the Scripture, """"foreseeing that God would"" justify the Gentiles by faith, preached the gospel to Abraham """"beforehand,""" saying, "In you all the nations shall be blessed."
9 So then those who are of faith are blessed with believing Abraham.
(NKJ)

If you look at the words between the """" """" you see that the gospel of justification under grace (the gospel of God's grace) was not an accomplished fact ""AT THAT TIME"" but was told it would occur in the future. I believe it occurred after Jesus died on the cross, was raised from the dead, and God sent Paul to proclaim it.

The OT saints were saved by Grace thru Faith in the coming Seed of the Woman, the Son of David, who would be the Atoning sacrifice for sins. They died in Faith, believing that God who had promised to come, would come in the flesh and remove their sins. NT and OT saints both have the same Faith, though our knowledge of the Gospel is more complete since Christ has already come in the flesh, died, and been raised.

 

[Lady Crosstalk]

The OT saints were saved by Grace thru Faith in the coming Seed of the Woman, the Son of David, who would be the Atoning sacrifice for sins. They died in Faith, believing that God who had promised to come, would come in the flesh and remove their sins. NT and OT saints both have the same Faith, though our knowledge of the Gospel is more complete since Christ has already come in the flesh, died, and been raised.

They were actually EXPECTING the Messiah to come at the time of His first visitation. The only problem is that the Jews were expecting a "conquering king" rather than the "suffering servant".

 

[ScottA]

Oh this is a deep one!

H.R., You tell it just fine...but that is only true according to the times of the scriptures you quoted. But we press on unto all truth. Although some will not want to hear it, and swear it is not even biblical, these are the times of which it is written: "knowledge shall increase."

Many of the terms according to the old ways were stated in the best may a person of the time could understand. Just as all parents do with their own children, God at that time made the same kind of adjustments for their immaturity. Thus, it is okay to quote it, but better to understand it with maturity for our current age. That is to say, it is better for us to come of age, than to stay within the ignorance of our youth. Therefore, Paul preached that we should as much as "leave behind the elementary teachings of Christ" and "press on" to "perfection." At which time we should have done so, unfortunately, that cannot be said of the church history. So, here we are, in what I would have to say is that time foretold, of "falling away", of "great apostasy." Much like Israel, the church has suffered a similar "type of blindness", "until the fullness of the gentiles is come in."

I will apologize for not giving my whole text in quotations. Nonetheless, much of it is, but all is according to the scriptures and the things foretold of our time.

So, then, if we are to understand the timing of when and how the Old Testament saints were saved, then we should understand it properly, which is according to God, rather than to men and to the history of the world. There is indeed the history of the world, which the world does care about. But we who are in Christ and who seek first the kingdom of God and His righteousness, will want to step across the line of passing from death to life to take our reading...and let the world do what the world will do. Most of us will say that we have crossed that line, though some will straddle the line while saying it and conveniently refer to the one side for what they believe according to the world, and on the other when it suits them. Don't kid yourself. The point is...time does not tick on God's side of that line...He is the same yesterday, today, and forever. Which is simply and old world way of saying and understanding, eternity.

It is in that moment when a person is save that the clocks stop ticking for the "new man" born of the spirit of God. It is at that time that Paul referred to when some "are alive [in Christ and God] and remain (in the world). These are those who in the book of revelation, walk with Him "who has one foot on the land and one on the sea." In other words, in old world terms, as one who walks with one foot in the world and one in the kingdom, one in the flesh and one in the spirit. Am I speaking plainly enough? These are the things that are written.

In that place of God, because time does not tick in the same way we are accustom to, when one man from the OT times being among "the dead in Christ" steps with Him in His joining the Father, and when one who is of the church and is in Christ having been born again of the spirit of God also steps with Jesus in His joining the Father...as it is written we "were crucified" and "were raised up with Christ" (past tense)...we all enter the kingdom "in Christ." Which bazaar explanation and experience is quite literally rapturous. All of which is in accordance with the fact that One "begotten."

In the correct timing then, which only occurs in the world, rightly dividing the word of truth, then becomes a matter of which is on one side, the side of the world where time advances from beginning to end...and after the end, where all is the same yesterday, today, and forever. In other words, which scriptures (including how and when the OT saints are saved) are correctly within the context of time, and which are not, but are correctly withing the context of eternity.

All of which means...there is no paradise in between.