I am stumped. Cannot answer friend's questions

[Foreigner]

Okay, I am stumped. I have been speaking with this gentlemen for about 18 months. I mentioned this in passing on this board a little over a year ago.

He states he is open minded (and I truly believe him) but he cannot reconcile the "God is love thing" with the observations he has made.

These observations are not to "stir the pot" but genuine questions he has that I am simply unable to answer.

I am more than willing to accept that being unable to address these concerns it is a shortcoming in me, but I do not know how to refute the direct statements he is making.

It came to a head yesterday when I shared with someone: "Being a Christian means to forgive the inexcusable, because God has forgiven the inexcusable in you."

He saw it and, as he said, "finally had enough of this type of mentality."
He asked "How is your behavior 'inexcusable' if you do not know who God is? If god allowed you to be born this way, with this nature, why then can he criticize you for it? You are basically being told that you have to see forgiveness for being the person that you were born as."

He wrote me a 3-4 page email and what is listed below is roughly the last page and a half.

I simply do not know how to answer his statements.
I would appreciate any CONSTRUCTIVE input that anyone here may have.

Thank you.


[SIZE=medium]"Look, it all comes down to this; god knew EVEN AS HE CREATED THE EARTH and blew life into Adam that he and Eve were going to fail and that the result would be pain and suffering and damnation of billions of people over the coming millennia. God knew, even as he created the world that billions would be born destined for hell because they would never learn who he is. Billions. [/SIZE]
[SIZE=medium]These are people that are brought into existence by his hand and doomed for all eternity because they didn’t know him. Yes many will actively reject him, but the vast, vast majority will simply never learn who he is or learn incorrectly who he is. [/SIZE]
[SIZE=medium]So the question still stands: Why? Why would he do this knowing the result was going to be billions spending eternity in hell? [/SIZE]
[SIZE=medium]That means that BEFORE HE EVEN STARTED he knew that the death/lost/damnation toll would be in the billions. That he would be watching those that you tell me he loves with his whole heart be born already sealed for damnation. Man, that’s cold. [/SIZE]
[SIZE=medium]It means that even as he was creating the earth he knew he was going to, in the very near future, be destroying 99.99% of all mankind in Noah’s flood. [/SIZE]
[SIZE=medium]It means that as he was creating the earth he ALREADY KNEW that he would regret making man and his heart would be grieved (Genesis, chaper six, verse six) and thus he was going to wipe them off the face of the earth via flood. In the next verse he says he “regretted” even making man. So he created man in his image knowing even as he ‘blew the breath of life’ into them that he would later regret it and ultimately kill more than 99.9% of them. Are you serious?[/SIZE]
[SIZE=medium]It also means that even as he created earth, he knew he would have to send his son to be tortured and die on the cross because Adam and Eve would fail. And again, he knew that his son’s death would still not prevent billions from dying and going to hell. Yes, I get the whole ‘free will’ thing, but if you don’t know what the truth is, you are still going to be punished for not accepting it. [/SIZE]
[SIZE=medium]And who set these rules? Who decided that the death of god’s son would pay the price for all sin. Pay the price TO WHOM? Who holds that ticket? Don’t say god. God didn’t allow his son to be killed to pay a price to himself. And don’t say the devil. As god’s creation, god owes him no payments. [/SIZE]
[SIZE=medium]Satan was god’s creation (albeit in a different form, I get that). So why does god allow him to do what he does? And yes, dammit, I do understand that he can’t have any impact that god doesn’t allow. But why is he in the mix at all? [/SIZE]
[SIZE=medium]And if you tell me again that it is because god ‘gave dominion’ of the earth to the devil one more time, we’re done talking. That means god knew that he was going to create two humans who, by their actions alone, were going to doom all mankind who are, through no choice of their own living in the devils ‘domain.’ [/SIZE]
[SIZE=medium]So if the bible is correct and god is who you say he is, it was a willful choice of god to create a world where he already knew AS HE WAS CREATING IT that the vast, vast majority of those he said he loved would be doomed to eternal damnation and a minority will love him and be with him in paradise. (The whole ‘wide is the path,’ ‘but narrow is the path’ thing, remember?)[/SIZE]
[SIZE=medium]Look, I agree with you. There is a ‘creator.’ Even Einstein knew that and was disturbed by it. But I am in no way assured that this creator, based on what I know to be black and white facts about what he had to know was going to go horrible wrong even as he “separated the light from the darkness,” is benevolent except in select situations. Either that or he locked himself into rules which prevent him from being able to save everyone he ‘loves’ because his own rules prevent it. How exactly is that then ‘all powerful?’"[/SIZE]

 

[Webers_Home]

-
It puzzles me why the Bible's God would paint such a black picture of
Himself if He's really trying to win souls via the love motive. I mean;
everything your friend said is true. The Bible's God comes across as a
psychopath for whom all forms of life-- human, bird, animal, fish,
vegetation, microscopic and macroscopic--is as cheap and expendable as a
discarded cigarette butt.

In my realistic opinion; there is something seriously messed up in the
creator's head. People say He's "loving" but for the most part His personality
seems to me the personality of a Robert Mugabe, a Hitler, a Pol Pot, and/or
a Kim Jong Un. In those demented minds; people are just lab rats.


Buen Camino
/

 

[Angelina]

Hi foreigner,
Nice to hear from you again.
Give me some time and I will do my best to answer some of the questions he has brought to light.

Bless you!!!
-----------------------------------------------------

Your friend does believe that there is a God...he just thinks that since God is "all powerful" how is it that he cannot save everyone he loves? God does not take love from us...he gives it. All through the bible we can see that God gives in the hope that we will not only receive him but love him back. He may be "All powerful" but he will not over rule our decision to choose or our freedom to give back in return.

Look, I agree with you. There is a ‘creator.’ Even Einstein knew that and was disturbed by it. But I am in no way assured that this creator, based on what I know to be black and white facts about what he had to know was going to go horrible wrong even as he “separated the light from the darkness,” is benevolent except in select situations. Either that or he locked himself into rules which prevent him from being able to save everyone he ‘loves’ because his own rules prevent it. How exactly is that then ‘all powerful?’"

I felt that this passage was significant regarding your friend. It's a passage from Acts 17 when Paul was speaking to the men of Athen's

22 Then Paul stood in the midst of the Areopagus and said, “Men of Athens, I perceive that in all things you are very religious; 23 for as I was passing through and considering the objects of your worship, I even found an altar with this inscription:

TO THE UNKNOWN GOD.
Therefore, the One whom you worship without knowing, Him I proclaim to you: 24 “God, who made the world and everything in it, since He is Lord of heaven and earth, does not dwell in temples made with hands. 25 Nor is He worshiped with men’s hands, as though He needed anything, since He gives to all life, breath, and all things. 26 And He has made from one blood every nation of men to dwell on all the face of the earth, and has determined their preappointed times and the boundaries of their dwellings, 27 so that they should seek the Lord, in the hope that they might grope for Him and find Him, though He is not far from each one of us; 28 for in Him we live and move and have our being, as also some of your own poets have said, ‘For we are also His offspring.’ 29 Therefore, since we are the offspring of God, we ought not to think that the Divine Nature is like gold or silver or stone, something shaped by art and man’s devising. 30 Truly, these times of ignorance God overlooked, but now commands all men everywhere to repent, 31 because He has appointed a day on which He will judge the world in righteousness by the Man whom He has ordained. He has given assurance of this to all by raising Him from the dead.”

Blessings!

 

[KingJ]

In my realistic opinion; there is something seriously messed up in the
creator's head.

You and the guy quoted in the OP are using human intellect. You are trying to grasp and conclude on / judge God with your mind...that to God is...kind of like an ants brain to a single 'tiny' galaxy.

Okay, I am stumped. I have been speaking with this gentlemen for about 18 months. I mentioned this in passing on this board a little over a year ago.

Hi. I have summarized his post into 3 arguments.


[SIZE=medium]1[/SIZE] [SIZE=medium]God is omniscient + evil exists = evil God[/SIZE]
[SIZE=medium]2[/SIZE] [SIZE=medium]Satan, why is he in the mix? / Adam and Eve setup.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=medium]3[/SIZE] [SIZE=medium]Acknowledges there is a Creator. But He is dumb and evil. Omniscient God makes hell = evil God.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=medium]1[/SIZE] [SIZE=medium]God is omniscient = evil God = an assumption from a carnal mind. Can an ANT grasp your mind? [/SIZE]

[SIZE=medium]It is funny to hear god bashers speak with such conviction about how they know for certain that God is so evil. If they know God so well, well please ask this guy: 1. Where does God come from / who made Him? 2. What is His lifespan? 3. How is He omnipresent? 4. How great is He to have made the entire universe and such complex cells? 5. Did He burn His hands making billions of suns?[/SIZE]

[SIZE=medium]Omniscience (all knowing) does simply not automatically translate into God = evil…just because evil exists.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=medium]A valid parallel exists with His omnipotence (all powerful). God is omnipotent, yet He can / did limit this on the cross for us. How and more importantly why?[/SIZE]

[SIZE=medium]How = God can do anything.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=medium]Why = God does what pleases Him Psalm 135:6.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=medium]When we grasp that we cannot grasp God with our carnal mind, we are halfway to grasping God.[/SIZE] [SIZE=medium]The second half is to look at where the evidence points. It is the same argument for creationism / intelligent design over evolution / no god with atheists.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=medium]Evidence = reality + history + scripture.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=medium]Reality = The sun rose today. You and I had no control over it. Today you, I and that guy have the opportunity to make right with God. Every temptation / situation that comes our way….we have the ability / power to make a choice on whether to do what is good and right... or be evil. [/SIZE][SIZE=medium]That is reality. Bash God as much as you want. But, do good and you feel like God is smiling at you. Do evil and you will feel like God is going to strike you with lightning.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=medium]History = Jesus changed the world with a message of love, righteousness and an amazing act of selflessness on the cross. http://www.thesacredpage.com/2008/04/napoleons-proof-for-divinity-of-jesus.html[/SIZE]

[SIZE=medium]Scripture = John 3:16 For God so love the world, whomsoever will. God is who He is. God does what pleases Him. It pleases God to hate sin / deal with sinners / wicked. It pleases God to love righteousness. It pleases God to be good. It pleases God to be longsuffering, patient and merciful. It pleases God to be impartial. The list of God's goodness is endless in scripture.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=medium]Scripture makes it crystal clear that there is no sin in God's presence. This is an interesting concept that we can work with. It makes me think of a sun. Can a wolf in sheep's clothing or a fox survive on the sun? No. It is not and never will be '''one''' with the sun. Likewise, no evil thought / plan of action is ''one'' with God. Jesus sweat blood in anticipation of sin coming upon Him because ...he likes sin / evil / wickedness?[/SIZE]

[SIZE=medium]The only thing God is guilty of is giving His intelligent creations free will to do as they please. [/SIZE]

[SIZE=medium]We cannot judge God but we can un-biasedly conclude that the evidence points to a good God. To a God that honors His intelligent creations free will.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=medium]2[/SIZE] [SIZE=medium]We need to grasp that we are accountable for sin because we are intelligent. Babies, children and mentally handicapped are not accountable for sin. An intelligent creation can grasp the evil in killing someone over letting them live peacefully with you.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=medium]The only thing God is guilty of, is making Adam and Eve intelligent. Their fall was inevitable. The devil just sped things up. [/SIZE][SIZE=medium]What we cannot ignore from scripture though is the fact that sin does NOT condemn anyone to hell. Being a sinner does. A sinner is someone who does not want to repent / follow Psalm 51:17.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=medium]Those in Abrahams bosom / paradise HAD sin. Those in Hades / Gehenna HAD sin. Yet they were separate! Psalm 51:17.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=medium]3[/SIZE] [SIZE=medium]God is not dumb. If our brain can deduce something is evil, how much more God who gave us that brain. If we now assume God is evil irrespective, well then we are defying all the evidence / not looking past our nose. But let's say for arguments sake we are right. There will be a fall out in Heaven, because God would then be a liar and all scripture false. This is highly unlikely as we have the cross as evidence of His love for / commitment to us. So, fortunately for us all, God is NOT the / a devil. God is true to His word. Sometimes only an encounter with Holy Spirit can gives us this persuasion. For me it was simple lateral thought off what happened on the cross.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=medium]As for hell, yes well done, brain is working. Eternal torture does not match any crime that we can commit. Where do we get torture though? Scripture says torment. Scripture says God will judge according to deeds Rom 2:6. Scripture says God is just.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=medium]We all need to remember that we currently see through a glass darkly. In heaven / hell we won't. Now why would God be increasing our IQ / understanding if He had things to hide…..?[/SIZE]

[SIZE=medium]Conclusion: Your friend is very biased. You can give him a reply like this but he will run from it and raise another argument. You need to dig and find the real reason for his bias.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=medium]Side thoughts:[/SIZE]

[SIZE=medium]1[/SIZE] [SIZE=medium]Scripture says Jesus is knocking on the door to all our hearts. He will ask us one important question on judgment day. Why did we not open our hearts to Him? Will we say He was not knocking? [/SIZE]

[SIZE=medium]2[/SIZE] [SIZE=medium]Let's say I go to heaven and discover my wife and kids had no chance of making it due to their damned birthright. I would trade my place for theirs. God would do the same. He put that desire in me in the first place.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=medium]3[/SIZE] [SIZE=medium]Let's say many are actually being tortured in hell. I will take them water and candy. God will help me. He put that desire in me in the first place.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=medium]4[/SIZE] [SIZE=medium]How can God allow evil men to do evil things? 2 Pet 3:9 The Lord is not slow in keeping his promise, as some understand slowness. Instead he is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=medium]Let's NOT put words in God's mouth! Can an ANT question me in my house? The mere fact that the ant is not dead is evidence of my love and mercy.[/SIZE]

 

[Webers_Home]

You and the guy quoted in the OP are using human intellect.

May I assume that your own human intellect agrees with Foreigner's friend?

I have summarized his post into 3 arguments.

When it came to rhetoric, Job's friends were as fluid as the Columbia River;
but when it came to sympathy, they were as dry as the Atacama in August.

"I have heard many things like these; miserable comforters are you all!"
(Job 16:2)

Bible thumpers are such hypocrites. They condemn others for harboring
thoughts about God that they themselves harbor; but are too chicken to admit.

Jesus admired very few people; but one that he admired was outstanding.

"Jesus saw Nathanael coming to Him, and said of him, "Behold, an Israelite
indeed, in whom is no guile." (John 1:47)

Webster's defines "guile" as the use of clever and usually dishonest methods.
In other words: Nathaniel was a true man of integrity. He would never stoop
to hiding his true feelings behind a wall of Bible verses. Don't see that degree
of honesty very often among Bible thumpers.

FYI: one of the seven things that God abhors is a liar. (Prv 6:16-19)

Buen Camino
/

 

[aspen]

we have children with full knnwledge that they will face pain and commit personal sin. Love compels us to do so. i think God was in the same boat

 

[KingJ]

May I assume that your own human intellect agrees with Foreigner's friend?

You think I am dumb? have half a working brain cell? Accusing God of stupidity and evil for unknown future events or words that are not recorded off the ASSUMPTION that omniscience + evil exists = evil God... WHEN scripture, current and past evidence shows an absolutely amazing, loving and caring God.... is plain and simple stupidity / ignorance at the max. I am not stupid .

God of the universe limited His omnipotence and made Himself a lamb to the slaughter / put Himself at the mercy of aggressive little red ants.

Would you do that for an ant in your house? If not, how dare you even come close to assuming the worst about God.

 

[Webers_Home]

You think I am dumb?

I don't think you're dumb; but I do think you're dishonest and lack integrity;
because you're unable to admit to your private thoughts about God.


Buen Camino
/

 

[River Jordan]

The problem of evil and God's omniscience is as old as beliefs about gods themselves. Theologians and philosophers have been debating this issue for millennia, and continue to do so today. Some would say to no resolution, even now. (And honestly, it's not fair of him to put you in the spot of "Either resolve this ancient conundrum for me right now, or I won't be a Christian".)

Your friend seems to be intelligent, so I'd suggest he spend some time studying and reading some of the writings about this and give it some deeper thought. More than likely he's not going to find anything that definitively solves this, but at least it'll give him some things to consider.

 

[Trekson]

Hi Foreigner, This guy comes up with some very good questions based on his somewhat limited knowledge. If I thought God was in any way as he described I would have some serious doubts myself. I edited his remarks to narrow the focus a little bit and highlighted the parts I’m going to address.

His quote: “God knew, even as he created the world that billions would be born destined for hell because they would never learn who he is. Billions. So the question still stands: Why? Why would he do this knowing the result was going to be billions spending eternity in hell?”

The problem with this statement is it “presumes facts not in evidence”. I for one do not believe in a God that would predestine innocent/non-innocent or those ignorant of God’s existence to eternal damnation. The problem is, he probably got this idea from other judgmental Christians who have a problem recognizing just how merciful our God is. The answer to his question is that God would and does NOT send those souls to hell without an opportunity to hear the truth of the gospel and they will not be judged by the same scale as those who do know about but reject God and Jesus Christ
.
His quote: “It means that even as he was creating the earth he knew he was going to, in the very near future, be destroying 99.99% of all mankind in Noah’s flood.”

Yes, God did know that it would come to this but as Peter explains in 1 Peter 3:19-20 – “By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison; 20 Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.” So we know by this that God gave those generations from Adam to Noah a chance to hear about the gospel from Christ Himself. I firmly believe that those who accepted His grace were immediately removed from prison to paradise. Just because God allows some to die does not mean they are automatically damned.

His quote: “...but if you don’t know what the truth is, you are still going to be punished for not accepting it.”

Again he is presuming things without any facts to back his assumption. Consider these verses: Rom. 1:18-19 – “The wrath of God is being revealed from heaven against all the godlessness and wickedness of people, who suppress the truth by their wickedness, 19 since what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them.” How has it been made plain to them? Have him re-read Gen. 3:1-7. Once Adam ate of the tree of “knowledge of good and evil”, that has been part of humanity’s DNA ever since. Every human being born has an innate sense of right and wrong as part of their genetic makeup. Rom. 2:14-15 – “(Indeed, when Gentiles, who do not have the law, do by nature things required by the law, they are a law for themselves, even though they do not have the law. 15 They show that the requirements of the law are written on their hearts, their consciences also bearing witness, and their thoughts sometimes accusing them and at other times even defending them.”

His quote: “And if you tell me again that it is because god ‘gave dominion’ of the earth to the devil one more time, we’re done talking. That means god knew that he was going to create two humans who, by their actions alone, were going to doom all mankind who are, through no choice of their own living in the devils ‘domain.’

He doesn’t have the story correct here and is basing his opinion upon non-factual elements. First, God DID NOT give the dominion of the earth to Satan. God gave dominion over the earth to Adam and Adam ceded it to Satan as part of the “fall”. Just because humanity “lived(s)” in the devil’s domain doesn’t mean anyone had/has to live an “evil” life. Everyone knows instinctively that whatever they choose to do is either right or wrong. That is what our “conscience” is for.

His quote: “So if the bible is correct and god is who you say he is, it was a willful choice of god to create a world where he already knew AS HE WAS CREATING IT that the vast, vast majority of those he said he loved would be doomed to eternal damnation and a minority will love him and be with him in paradise. How exactly is that then all powerful?”

While it’s true that there will be perhaps billions of people sent to hell because of their actions or choices, I will answer this question for him. How many people will be sent to hell based solely upon their never hearing or knowing about the God of Israel and of Christ the Savior??? Zero!!!

I would ask where he got this idea of a “vengeful” God, but unfortunately I believe I know the answer. Somewhere, during a discussion with a Christian, I can hear the conversation going like this: Your friend: Hmm, let me see if I got this right, The OT Jews will be resurrected and the believers in Christ will be resurrected or raptured, what about the rest of humanity? Some Christian: Oh, they will face God at the Great White Throne Judgment and be sent to hell!

I can’t tell you how many Christians I’ve heard echo this line of thought but they are absolutely WRONG! Let’s take a look at those verses again. Rev. 20:12-15 – “And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works. 13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works. 14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. 15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.”

There will be two types of people in this judgment encompassing those from the time of Noah through the millennium. Those who, however short, had an opportunity at some point in their life to hear about the God of Israel and of Christ and chose to reject or ignore the message of faith, and those who never had an opportunity to hear anything at all about the God of Israel or Christ. They will NOT be judged by the same measure. The latter will be judged, as the scriptures point out, by their works. That means by how they lived their life based on the innate quality of the knowledge of good and evil. Let’s say there was an aborigine, ignorant of God, but was an honest man, provided for his family, was good and kind to strangers, treated his neighbors with respect, willing to lend a helping hand to anyone that asked and was well liked by all. Is God going to send him to hell? Absolutely not! Let’s say the aborigine had a neighbor who was the opposite of him. He was dishonest, hateful, a miserable human being, and he wouldn’t lift a finger to help anyone out. Is he going to go to hell? Most likely! What’s the difference between the two? One followed his inner conscience and one did not. The God I serve is a good, honest, faithful and righteous Judge and would never even consider condemning someone to hell who didn’t honestly deserve it. Tell your friend he’ll have to find another excuse because this reasoning just doesn’t hold water!

Hope this helped.

 

[River Jordan]

And not only do not all Christians believe that those who've never heard the Gospel are not damned, but not all Christians read the Noah's Flood story as an actual historical account. So perhaps part of the problem is that your friend is arguing against one specific brand of Christianity?

 

[Trekson]

Hi RJ "but not all Christians read the Noah's Flood story as an actual historical account"

Hmm, that's too bad. They must be buying into some sort of psuedo science.

 

[River Jordan]

Hmm, that's too bad. They must be buying into some sort of psuedo science.

Yeah, for about 250 years now.

 

[Dan57]

[SIZE=medium]"Look, it all comes down to this; god knew EVEN AS HE CREATED THE EARTH and blew life into Adam that he and Eve were going to fail and that the result would be pain and suffering and damnation of billions of people over the coming millennia. God knew, even as he created the world that billions would be born destined for hell because they would never learn who he is. Billions. [/SIZE]
[SIZE=medium]These are people that are brought into existence by his hand and doomed for all eternity because they didn’t know him. Yes many will actively reject him, but the vast, vast majority will simply never learn who he is or learn incorrectly who he is. [/SIZE]
[SIZE=medium]So the question still stands: Why? Why would he do this knowing the result was going to be billions spending eternity in hell? [/SIZE]
[SIZE=medium]That means that BEFORE HE EVEN STARTED he knew that the death/lost/damnation toll would be in the billions. That he would be watching those that you tell me he loves with his whole heart be born already sealed for damnation. Man, that’s cold. [/SIZE]
[SIZE=medium]It means that even as he was creating the earth he knew he was going to, in the very near future, be destroying 99.99% of all mankind in Noah’s flood. [/SIZE]
[SIZE=medium]It means that as he was creating the earth he ALREADY KNEW that he would regret making man and his heart would be grieved (Genesis, chaper six, verse six) and thus he was going to wipe them off the face of the earth via flood. In the next verse he says he “regretted” even making man. So he created man in his image knowing even as he ‘blew the breath of life’ into them that he would later regret it and ultimately kill more than 99.9% of them. Are you serious?[/SIZE]
[SIZE=medium]It also means that even as he created earth, he knew he would have to send his son to be tortured and die on the cross because Adam and Eve would fail. And again, he knew that his son’s death would still not prevent billions from dying and going to hell. Yes, I get the whole ‘free will’ thing, but if you don’t know what the truth is, you are still going to be punished for not accepting it. [/SIZE]
[SIZE=medium]And who set these rules? Who decided that the death of god’s son would pay the price for all sin. Pay the price TO WHOM? Who holds that ticket? Don’t say god. God didn’t allow his son to be killed to pay a price to himself. And don’t say the devil. As god’s creation, god owes him no payments. [/SIZE]
[SIZE=medium]Satan was god’s creation (albeit in a different form, I get that). So why does god allow him to do what he does? And yes, dammit, I do understand that he can’t have any impact that god doesn’t allow. But why is he in the mix at all? [/SIZE]
[SIZE=medium]And if you tell me again that it is because god ‘gave dominion’ of the earth to the devil one more time, we’re done talking. That means god knew that he was going to create two humans who, by their actions alone, were going to doom all mankind who are, through no choice of their own living in the devils ‘domain.’ [/SIZE]
[SIZE=medium]So if the bible is correct and god is who you say he is, it was a willful choice of god to create a world where he already knew AS HE WAS CREATING IT that the vast, vast majority of those he said he loved would be doomed to eternal damnation and a minority will love him and be with him in paradise. (The whole ‘wide is the path,’ ‘but narrow is the path’ thing, remember?)[/SIZE]
[SIZE=medium]Look, I agree with you. There is a ‘creator.’ Even Einstein knew that and was disturbed by it. But I am in no way assured that this creator, based on what I know to be black and white facts about what he had to know was going to go horrible wrong even as he “separated the light from the darkness,” is benevolent except in select situations. Either that or he locked himself into rules which prevent him from being able to save everyone he ‘loves’ because his own rules prevent it. How exactly is that then ‘all powerful?’"[/SIZE]

This person is telling you what God thinks, but his logic is not biblical. We are each individual souls and we each make our own spiritual choices. I personally don't believe God knows every choice we'll make. If that were so, then this whole experiment would be an exercise in futility. He also presumes that most everyone is headed to hell by no fault of their own, but all who perish will be without excuse (Romans 1;20). He sounds frustrated, but he needs to learn, instead of coming to his own incorrect conclusions. His assertions are ridiculous and too numerous to address. I'd just try to address one of his questions at a time. jmo

 

[KingJ]

I don't think you're dumb; but I do think you're dishonest and lack integrity;
because you're unable to admit to your private thoughts about God.


Buen Camino
/

Before I was saved I thought like you and that guy. Are you saved?

And not only do not all Christians believe that those who've never heard the Gospel are not damned, but not all Christians read the Noah's Flood story as an actual historical account. So perhaps part of the problem is that your friend is arguing against one specific brand of Christianity?

Very true many Christians make up their own belief when they hit a brick wall. It comes from laziness in searching scripture and a lack of respect for God.

 

[Thunderkat]

You think I am dumb? have half a working brain cell?

The more I learn and the older I get the more I realize how dumb I actually am. There are so many things I know very little about. There are people that can take a volume of a known material and expose it to X amount of heat for X amount of time and tell you the exact temperature at the center of this volume of material. I can't do that. I can't even tell you have a human brain cells stores information even though I have been in the medical field all my life and even have a degree in Cytology. Even if I were to know all the knowlege mankind has acquired I would still be dumb. Some of that information is wrong and all of it is incomplete. The only Bible verse I can tell you the exact location and wording form memory is John 3:16, I know I am lacking in knowledge but I am trying to learn more.

 

[KingJ]

The more I learn and the older I get the more I realize how dumb I actually am. There are so many things I know very little about. There are people that can take a volume of a known material and expose it to X amount of heat for X amount of time and tell you the exact temperature at the center of this volume of material. I can't do that. I can't even tell you have a human brain cells stores information even though I have been in the medical field all my life and even have a degree in Cytology. Even if I were to know all the knowlege mankind has acquired I would still be dumb. Some of that information is wrong and all of it is incomplete. The only Bible verse I can tell you the exact location and wording form memory is John 3:16, I know I am lacking in knowledge but I am trying to learn more.

Thunderkat, Christianity 101 = God is TRUE TO HIMSELF. Cross = 100% proof. God is who He is. God is good. God is longsuffering not willing that any perish. God is not evil. God is not twisted. God did not damn anyone to hell from birth / God is not dumb.

Now you tell me..........sending a baby to prison is....DUMB, right? Torturing a baby is evil, right? Now.....insinuating / believing that God would do that / be that dumb and evil....is STUPIDITY personified. ....if you consider the fact that God made....everything....even those feelings of disgust we have at the idea....of God being dumb and evil.... .

Anyone suggesting God damned anyone from birth = must have IQ of 1 (if that) .

Edit: 1. Stupidity personified bolded. 2. Stupidity personified underlined. 3. Stupidity personified font enlarged.

 

[Shirley]

If I believed the way your friend does I would also reject Christianity. I have been a Christian since I was a small girl, but knew in my heart that many things I was taught were wrong. I studied the Bible on my own for years, using many study Bibles and i discovered that many things that theologians and different religions taught were wrong. For years I studied the Bible searching and begging God for the truth and now I know that we can not know all of the truth. I would tell this man that if he walks in the Spirit that God will lead him into all righteousness and that he does not have to believe some religion to be a Christian. Those who grope for God will find him. i believe this man has a lot of the same problems i have had. I hold on to the saying "We see through a glass darkly" God wants me to walk in the Spirit and I would tell this man that his frustration is not from God, who is love and peace.

Father in heaven: May this man find the peace of God which surpasses all understanding. May his misunderstanding be replaced by the knowledge of God's love for all his children. Please calm his troubled mind and let him know you love him and all people. May you let him feel your presence and let him just walk in your love! In Jesus name I pray

 

[aspen]

i dont think it is about "knowing" i think it is about learning to love through all situations. Life can be horrible and we are called to love anyway. that is what Christ did and that is what we are called to do - nothing easy about, but it is the only way to avoid bitterness and hell

 

[ChristianJuggarnaut]

I didn't read all the responses. Has anyone offered this suggestion to your friend:

WHO CARES?

Your friend is being asked by almighty God to accept (ON FAITH) certain precepts that indeed have been fully explained. As for the unexplained? Again WHO CARES?

If Who Cares is too strong and since he seems a little touchy, you could change it to "Why does it matter?"

Let's ask your friend to imagine that his questions are entirely legitimate. He is 100% correct. Now, does he want to also spend eternity separated from God just because others are there unjustly in his opinion. This is illogical. Is eternity worth making a stand on moral grounds that you are not even sure are true?

Good question. This is a variation of Pascal's wager in my opinion, but let's call it "Juggarnauts Wager."