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I have a question that remains unanswered:

Discussion in 'Bible Study Forum' started by Robert Gwin, Sep 18, 2021.

  1. Wrangler

    Wrangler Well-Known Member

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    The name of God in English is the LORD. This is not the same as the many masters (lords) in the Bible. Our master, lord is not the LORD.

    Psalm 110
    A psalm of David.
    1 The LORD said to my Lord,
    “Sit in the place of honor at my right hand
    until I humble your enemies,
    making them a footstool under your feet.”
     
  2. bbyrd009

    bbyrd009 Groper

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    fwiw “lord” is likely a terrible translation, given our past heritage and the definition of the term; “lord” is an english land-hogger, right?
    to that i would say that Jews are still literally putting milk and meat on different shelves in the fridge tho, too? Iow i fully expected that a Jew would admit that doing that is symbolic, and that they understood the significance; but not so much! The phrase “putting milk and meat on different shelves” can even be searched, add “is symbolic” if you like, doesnt seem to matter…

    point being you might be right, but i just seriously doubt that Jesus would make that claim for Himself, unless it was to poke fun at Jewish misunderstanding? Or iow to restore the “title” to its proper relationship, as was done with Sabbath, etc. After all, ben Adam may not need to be religiously codified,


    https://en.wikipedia.org › wiki › Ben_adam

    Ben adam (Hebrew: בן־אדם Hebrew pronunciation: [ˈben (ʔ)aˈdam] son of a man) in biblical Hebrew it simply means human being. ... For example, "son of man" in Job…”

    articles › 13913...

    Among Jews the term "son of man" was not used as the specific title of the Messiah… (from the Jewish Encyclopedia)


    THE ORIGIN AND MEANING OF THE TERM SON OF MAN
    https://www.jstor.org › stable


    by JY Campbell · 1947 · Cited by 28 — I mean the theory that ' the Son of Man ' was a Messianic title in use among the Jews

    so, still not disagreeing with you bc idk, but do you have any support?
     
    Last edited: Sep 27, 2021
  3. Backlit

    Backlit Well-Known Member

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    This is a reply to another poster on another thread, but it answers your question.
    While I agree with you regarding the Trinity doctrine as portrayed in the creeds and many church manuals, I cannot agree with you regarding the Son. I have read 1 John numerous times. No where is there any hint that the relationship between Jesus and the Father is anything other than real. The Father/Son paradigm is not metaphorical. Nor did the Father become a Father at the incarnation. They two were two separate beings, persons, before creation, the Father creating all things through the agency of His Son.
    KJV Hebrews 1:1-3
    1 God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets,
    2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;
    3 Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high;

    The Son is the express image of the Father, begotten with all the fullness of the Godhead. The Father is God, and the Son is God manifest.
    Picture if you will two windows. Before creation. Before anything outside of God was created. God alone. No universe. No worlds. No angels. Just God. He fills the first window. That's all there is in that window. God and God alone. Then the Son is begotten. He isn't created, because scripture tells us the Son created everything. So He doesn't belong in the second window, He belongs in the first. He inherited all things from the Father. All that the Father is, the Son is.
    “For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.” John 3:16
    Jesus told Nicodemus that God “gave” His Son. This is the everlasting gospel. If God did not possess a son then He would not have had a son to give. It must follow therefore that Christ was God’s “only begotten Son” before He came to earth.
    That God gave His Son as a sacrifice for sin is the core-belief of Christianity. Without this belief, Christianity is meaningless. It is therefore a subject that not only demands our fullest attention but also needs great care when being presented. To get it wrong will pervert the gospel. A correct understanding of the atonement is totally dependent on a correct understanding of the relationship between God the Father and His Son.
    Those who teach that Christ is not really the Son of God are perverting what it cost God in redeeming mankind from sin. They are also perverting, in the minds of those who believe what they say, the love that God has for humanity.
    The apostle Paul wrote
    “For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:” Romans 8:3
    “He that spared not his own Son, but delivered him up for us all, how shall he not with him also freely give us all things?” Romans 8:32
    When expressing this great truth to his little flock, John the gospel writer put it this way
    “Beloved, let us love one another: for love is of God; and every one that loveth is born of God, and knoweth God. He that loveth not knoweth not God; for God is love. In this was manifested the love of God toward us, because that God sent his only begotten Son into the world, that we might live through him. Herein is love, not that we loved God, but that he loved us, and sent his Son to be the propitiation for our sins. Beloved, if God so loved us, we ought also to love one another.” 1 John 4:7-11
    It is only when we realize that God really did give His Son that we can say we truly understand the gospel. Any other understanding of it is a perversion. In order to make manifest God’s love in the way that we treat others we need to correctly understand what God has done through His Son. It is only when we see the ‘other person’ (whoever that may be) as someone purchased by the blood of God’s only begotten Son that we are able to treat that person as they should be treated. Christ died for everyone. He did not die only for those who will be saved. We must regard everyone as the purchase of God. There are no exceptions.
    John also wrote
    “Who is he that overcometh the world, but he that believeth that Jesus is the Son of God?…He that believeth on the Son of God hath the witness in himself: he that believeth not God hath made him a liar; because he believeth not the record that God gave of his Son. And this is the record, that God hath given to us eternal life, and this life is in his Son.” 1 John 5:5, 10-11
    Begotten in the express image of God’s person
    The Scriptures also tell us
    “For it pleased the Father that in him [in Christ] should all fulness dwell; Colossians” 1:19
    This is referring to the fullness of deity. As it says in Colossians 2:9
    “For in him [in Christ] dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.”
    The Scriptures tell us that it was God’s pleasure to have His fullness dwell in the Son. Christ therefore was God Himself (the fullness of deity) in the person of the Son (John 1:1-3, Hebrews 1:1-3). This was Christ’s inheritance as a son. As a son He received (inherited) all things from His father (God the Father). As we are told in the opening verses of the book of Hebrews
    “God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets, Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds; Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high:” Hebrews 1:1-3

    Like I said above. If the Son inherited everything the Father is... The express image... Then the Son is God.
     
  4. Backlit

    Backlit Well-Known Member

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    Actually, in Catholicism it is ranked the most important. "The central doctrine of the Catholic Church from which all other doctrines are derived."
    In Protestantism of course, it should be the Atonement.
     
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  5. Abaxvahl

    Abaxvahl Active Member

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    How can this be in Protestantism when the Atonement can not rightly be understood apart from the Trinity? "A creature is what brought creatures and God together again" vs. "God brought creatures and God together again" is literally an infinite difference. This is also why Protestant manuals of theology begin with the Trinity, it is the most important doctrine for all Christians not just Catholics. Starting with the Atonement is starting in the middle not the beginning. Who is it that brought the Atonement, why do we need it, how is it effected, etc.
     
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  6. Wrangler

    Wrangler Well-Known Member

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    Thank you @Backlit. The zeal for this anti-Scripture doctrine is stunning. I was reading Isaiah this weekend. Not once is Jesus identified as the LORD incarnate. And it is funny how dualism let's @David in NJ be simultanously existed about plural pronouns in one case but ignore singular pronoun's significance 1,000's of others.

    5 I am the LORD;
    there is no other God.

    Isaiah 45:5 (NLT)
     
  7. David in NJ

    David in NJ Well-Known Member

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    How is your soul eternally threatened by The Father, Son and Holy Spirit.
     
  8. David in NJ

    David in NJ Well-Known Member

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    But yo do not understand what Jesus just said unless you know Where He is Coming From.
    Our Lord Jesus Christ just told you who He IS.

    Without the Holy Spirit you will never be able to see Scripture as God said it.
    This is why the LORD said - you MUST be Born Again by the Spirit of God.

    THREE Persons are One Eternal God.

    No one comes to the (1) FATHER but through (2)ME and no one comes to ME unless the (3)FATHER DRAWS them.

    Father, Son and the Holy Spirit(Draws/Calls)

    All things have been delivered to Me by My Father, and no one knows who the Son is except the Father, and who the (1)Father is except the (2)Son, and the one to whom the Son wills to (3)reveal Him.

    Eternal Father, Eternal Son, Eternal Holy Spirit(reveals) are ONE
     
    Last edited: Sep 27, 2021
  9. Wrangler

    Wrangler Well-Known Member

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    Really? I am not a trinitarian. Trinitarians have come right out and said if I do not accept their heresy, I am damned to hell.

    I have no doubt they are wrong and their words and doctrine have no power what so ever. It's not the doctrine is threatening but its advocates who do not display the Fruit of the Spirit with their eternal damnation threats. Understand now?
     
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  10. Wrangler

    Wrangler Well-Known Member

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    The Sh'ma is not Jesus telling us who he is.

    Make a blessed life!
     
    Last edited: Sep 27, 2021
  11. David in NJ

    David in NJ Well-Known Member

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    If the Shema does not pertain to Jesus then He has not authority to tells the Jews: "If you do not believe who I say I am you will die in your sins."
    Only God can forgive sin.
     
    Last edited: Sep 27, 2021
  12. Backlit

    Backlit Well-Known Member

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    Here is the Atonement... The gospel...
    KJV 1 John 4:7-10
    7 Beloved, let us love one another: for love is of God; and every one that loveth is born of God, and knoweth God.
    8 He that loveth not knoweth not God; for God is love.
    9 In this was manifested the love of God toward us, because that God sent his only begotten Son into the world, that we might live through him.
    10 Herein is love, not that we loved God, but that he loved us, and sent his Son to be the propitiation for our sins.

    I don't need to understand the Trinity, or define it, or formulate it, or even believe in it, in order to accept the gospel. God sent His only begotten Son into this sinful rebellious world, to become a man, live a life of righteousness and holiness, then selflessly give His life as a ransom for sin.
    Christ was treated as we deserve, that we might be treated as He deserves. He was condemned for our sins, in which He had no share, that we might be justified by His righteousness, in which we had no share. He suffered the death which was ours, that we might receive the life which was His. "With His stripes we are healed." DoA.
     
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  13. Abaxvahl

    Abaxvahl Active Member

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    "God sent His only begotten Son into this world... then selflessly gave His life as a ransom for sin."

    Do you not see that depending on how one defines "God" and "Son" here the Gospel radically changes? What if I think of God like the Mormons do? They would agree with this sentence, but their conception of God is blatantly non-Christian, they think of Him as a being who has physical sex to reproduce a child like a human, and that we will be exactly like Him with our own planet. This is why the Trinity is essential: you can not know who "God" is or who His "Son" is or what "life" He gave as a ransom or propitiation without first knowing what God is. If someone said "God" means "dog" and Jesus was just a dog masquerading as a human being, and that was the Gospel, would you really say they believed in the same Gospel as you? If someone thought God was really Santa and Jesus was an elf who lived a sinless human life would that be the same?
     
  14. Wrangler

    Wrangler Well-Known Member

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    The Big Reveal in Jesus' ministry was that he was the Messiah, which he clearly said @ Mark 14:61-62. Jesus never said he was God incarnate. Jesus never taught the trinity.

    Not sure where you get this from. God delegated this power to Jesus who, in turn, delegated it to the Apostles.
     
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  15. David in NJ

    David in NJ Well-Known Member

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    All that you posted here is TRUTH - Amen

    The revealing of God as Three Persons who are One(echad - two or more united as one) was declared FIRST by God in His Word.
    Genesis: "Let Us make man in Our Image according to Our Likeness"
    God continued to build on these Three in Genesis in the lives of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob.

    Then God verified and certified FOREVER that His Name is to be directly attached to these THREE:
    Abraham - Father
    Isaac - Son
    Jacob - Holy Spirit

    God said to Moses, “I AM WHO I AM. This is what you are to say to the Israelites:
    ‘I AM has sent me to you.’ ” God also told Moses, “Say to the Israelites,
    ‘The LORD, the God of your fathers—the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob—has sent me to you.’
    This is My name forever, and this is how I am to be remembered in every generation.

    When we call upon the Name of Jesus the Christ, we are calling upon all Three.
    This is why all Three are often mentioned together in one sentence/passage in the Gospel of John starting in the very first chapter.

    You do not need to call upon all Three to be saved - just the Name that has been given whereby we MUST be saved.

    Then Peter, filled with the (1)Holy Spirit, said to them, “Rulers and elders of the people! If we are being examined today about a kind service to a man who was lame, to determine how he was healed, then let this be known to all of you and to all the people of Israel: It is by the name of (2)Jesus Christ of Nazareth, whom you crucified but whom (3)God raised from the dead, that this man stands before you healed. This Jesus is‘the stone you builders rejected, which has become the cornerstone.’
    Salvation exists in no one else, for there is no other name under heaven given to men by which we must be saved.”

    Do you see in this one direct passage on one singular subject (Salvation) that all THREE Persons are Present - God(Father), Jesus(Son) and the Holy Spirit.
    Notice how the Holy Spirit is mentioned first then the Son then the Father(God).
    Do you know why this is???
     
  16. Backlit

    Backlit Well-Known Member

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    No-one has ever explained what God is in a way they themselves could understand, let alone in a way anyone else could. We do not need to know what God is, nor how His unity brings the 3 members of the Godhead together. His "substance" is none of our business. But the scriptures... Jesus Himself in His own words... Declared His Sonship, and therefore His equality, with His Father, which eventually became the Jew's excuse to kill Him.
    KJV 1 John 5:9-13
    9 If we receive the witness of men, the witness of God is greater: for this is the witness of God which he hath testified of his Son.
    10 He that believeth on the Son of God hath the witness in himself: he that believeth not God hath made him a liar; because he believeth not the record that God gave of his Son.
    11 And this is the record, that God hath given to us eternal life, and this life is in his Son.
    12 He that hath the Son hath life; and he that hath not the Son of God hath not life.
    13 These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God.

    It is knowing God personally in a relational way, not in an academic way, that affords us the capacity to understand and accept the gospel. Knowing Jesus personally opens the way to understanding and revelation regarding whatever aspects of His nature He wishes us to know. The gospel must come first.
     
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  17. David in NJ

    David in NJ Well-Known Member

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    Again you are not understanding the Gospel and just entered into catholocism.
     
  18. Backlit

    Backlit Well-Known Member

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    Revelation comes to us through the word of God, and is confirmed in our hearts as truth by the holy Spirit.
    Any other voice the sheep ignore.
     
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  19. David in NJ

    David in NJ Well-Known Member

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    You said: "No-one has ever explained what God is in a way they themselves could understand, let alone in a way anyone else could."
    Your statement is part true and part false: True no one can ever (fully) understand God
    But God did indeed explain to us, in a way we could understand, that He is Three Persons who are One.
    Otherwise He never would of explained it in the first place - Genesis where He did reveal it to us in a way we can understand.
     
  20. David in NJ

    David in NJ Well-Known Member

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    You just proclaimed Three Persons as God - Excellent - you are unto Truth.
     
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